To Be Justified by His Grace-What of Works?

[newton3005]

Titus 3:7 says that by being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Has the Bible laid the groundwork for a topic of debate, the topic being what importance is works relative to faith in obtaining God’s Grace? On the one hand, Jesus in Matthew 7:21 says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Does that not imply that works are involved to obtain God’s Grace enough to gain admittance into His Kingdom?

On the other hand, there is Ephesians 2:8-9 that says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Sort of leaves work out in the cold, n’est ce pas?

Going further back, in OT times, within Genesis 15:1–6, God says to Abram, TBKA Abraham, that he will be the father of a vast number of offspring. He tops it off by informing Abraham that he will have a son. Verse 6 says that Abraham believes in the Lord, implying he has faith in the Lord, who counts that to Abraham as righteousness. This is confirmed by Romans 4:3.

Romans 4:5 goes on to say, “And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness…” (Commentators say that use of the word “ungodly” in this context means we are all ungodly until God justifies us individually to be godly.) Does that mean you don’t have to work, that you only need to express your faith in God to obtain His Grace? But that seems to run counter to Matthew 7:21 which says you need to do God’s Will to enter His Kingdom. How do you enter God’s Kingdom except by His Grace?

What does God’s Will entail? What stands out are the two great commandments of Jesus: To love God with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. But as Jesus implies in Matthew 7:21, it takes more to show your love for God than to just say ‘I love you, Lord.’

How did Abraham get by with just believing in God, effectively putting him in the “Lord, Lord” category? Perhaps God had a divine expectation of Abraham showing his faith in Him by means of the stature God has given him in Genesis 15:1–6. God expects great things from Abraham, and one can presume that establishing a nation is no simple feat.

For the rest of us, seems we are stuck with some earthly rationalization between faith, work and God’s Grace. God looks at us in terms of our faith in Him, Yet James 2: 17 says “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” To the idea of God counting as righteousness the belief that merely believing in God can be counted as righteousness, Verse 21 says “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?”

Perhaps the idea of righteousness and the idea of faith in the Lord are two different things. Perhaps righteousness is relegated to works, having the same stature. Righteousness can be expressed in other ways, not just in terms of righteousness under God. Righteousness can be applied to earthly morals and laws. Perhaps Jesus’ idea of doing the will of our father is different than works. Perhaps works, like earthly morals and laws, apply to earthliness as well.

But if we accept that, where does that leave James 2:17? And where does that leave God’s Grace? To add to the debate, Titus 3:7 implies that we may not have a lock on eternal life if we are merely justified by God’s Grace. So what else is needed to gain further assurance of our having eternal life? Why doesn’t Titus 3:7 say that we WILL become heirs according to the hope of eternal life if we are justified by God’s Grace? Maybe there's an issue regarding the translation from the language it was originally written?

 

[Davy]

Does that not imply that works are involved to obtain God’s Grace enough to gain admittance into His Kingdom?

No, it implies the WRONG KIND OF WORKS ("iniquity") can AFFECT how GOD'S GRACE is applied for the believer.

1 Cor 5:1-5
5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

VERY IMPORTANT VERSE COMING UP:

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

The "day of the Lord Jesus" is about Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 that begins at His future 2nd coming.

That suggests that in that future Millennial time it 'might'... be possible that Jesus may forgive that person of that sin. But the latter part of the Book of Ezekiel, which have future Millennial chapters, reveals that those of God's people who erred will stand in judgment throughout that future period. Only Christ's elect will be allowed to approach Jesus at His table and serve Him that also shown to Ezekiel.

 

[newton3005]

• Does that not imply that works are involved to obtain God’s Grace enough to gain admittance into His Kingdom?

  [Davy]: No, it implies the WRONG KIND OF WORKS ("iniquity") can AFFECT how GOD'S GRACE is applied for the believer.

• Where does the RIGHT kind of works stand in this exchange in reference to obtaining God's Grace to gain admittance into His Kingdom?

 

[ProverbsInPink]

according to the Scripture s:

If we cannot understand the things of God in our natural minded state as people dead in our sins and focused on things of the flesh,then we cannot think to do the work of God in order to obtain Salvation.

We also cannot do the works of God because we cannot understand anything about that in our natural state.

As Gods eternally irrevocably blessed and sealed reborn in His Spirit,the good work we do is because we understand and follow the leading of God now. Because we hear what He calls us to do.

Not so to keep Salvation. Because it is His gift to us. And everyone should know, if you work to keep a gift,it wasn't a gift. Rather we follow where God leads us to serve because it is in behalf of establishing evidence of His Kingdom on Earth.

Never believe a word spoken by those who insist Eternal Life is not Eternal. That Eternal Salvation that cannot be revoked,as Jesus himself promised, can actually be revoked.

Never ever believe that. That is the doctrine of demons. Not of Christ.

Everything Jesus taught tells you,His gift is eternal.
Believe Jesus. Not those who don't.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Titus 3:7 says that by being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Has the Bible laid the groundwork for a topic of debate, the topic being what importance is works relative to faith in obtaining God’s Grace? On the one hand, Jesus in Matthew 7:21 says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Does that not imply that works are involved to obtain God’s Grace enough to gain admittance into His Kingdom?

On the other hand, there is Ephesians 2:8-9 that says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Sort of leaves work out in the cold, n’est ce pas?

Going further back, in OT times, within Genesis 15:1–6, God says to Abram, TBKA Abraham, that he will be the father of a vast number of offspring. He tops it off by informing Abraham that he will have a son. Verse 6 says that Abraham believes in the Lord, implying he has faith in the Lord, who counts that to Abraham as righteousness. This is confirmed by Romans 4:3.

Romans 4:5 goes on to say, “And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness…” (Commentators say that use of the word “ungodly” in this context means we are all ungodly until God justifies us individually to be godly.) Does that mean you don’t have to work, that you only need to express your faith in God to obtain His Grace? But that seems to run counter to Matthew 7:21 which says you need to do God’s Will to enter His Kingdom. How do you enter God’s Kingdom except by His Grace?

What does God’s Will entail? What stands out are the two great commandments of Jesus: To love God with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. But as Jesus implies in Matthew 7:21, it takes more to show your love for God than to just say ‘I love you, Lord.’

How did Abraham get by with just believing in God, effectively putting him in the “Lord, Lord” category? Perhaps God had a divine expectation of Abraham showing his faith in Him by means of the stature God has given him in Genesis 15:1–6. God expects great things from Abraham, and one can presume that establishing a nation is no simple feat.

For the rest of us, seems we are stuck with some earthly rationalization between faith, work and God’s Grace. God looks at us in terms of our faith in Him, Yet James 2: 17 says “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” To the idea of God counting as righteousness the belief that merely believing in God can be counted as righteousness, Verse 21 says “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?”

Perhaps the idea of righteousness and the idea of faith in the Lord are two different things. Perhaps righteousness is relegated to works, having the same stature. Righteousness can be expressed in other ways, not just in terms of righteousness under God. Righteousness can be applied to earthly morals and laws. Perhaps Jesus’ idea of doing the will of our father is different than works. Perhaps works, like earthly morals and laws, apply to earthliness as well.

But if we accept that, where does that leave James 2:17? And where does that leave God’s Grace? To add to the debate, Titus 3:7 implies that we may not have a lock on eternal life if we are merely justified by God’s Grace. So what else is needed to gain further assurance of our having eternal life? Why doesn’t Titus 3:7 say that we WILL become heirs according to the hope of eternal life if we are justified by God’s Grace? Maybe there's an issue regarding the translation from the language it was originally written?

faith, works and obedience go together, Jesus did this and is our guide. Faith alone will not save anyone it is dead without works. this is what James said and I believe him completely as it conforms what Jesus said about works, to love one another, help the sick, visit the widow ect... basically expressing out love for one another, jesus gave us so many examples to follow.

 

[Soyeong]

Titus 3:7 says that by being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Has the Bible laid the groundwork for a topic of debate, the topic being what importance is works relative to faith in obtaining God’s Grace? On the one hand, Jesus in Matthew 7:21 says “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Does that not imply that works are involved to obtain God’s Grace enough to gain admittance into His Kingdom?

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earring the opportunity to drive it. Similarly, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and God's law is His gift for teaching us how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life. The reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to earn it as the result, but because that is the way to know God and Jesus. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking about the way to experience the gift of eternal life, not about the way to earn it.

Our gift of salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed towards being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by redirecting our lives towards being doers of God's law. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present.

On the other hand, there is Ephesians 2:8-9 that says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Sort of leaves work out in the cold, n’est ce pas?

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ in order to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us into a doer of good works is nevertheless the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone.

Going further back, in OT times, within Genesis 15:1–6, God says to Abram, TBKA Abraham, that he will be the father of a vast number of offspring. He tops it off by informing Abraham that he will have a son. Verse 6 says that Abraham believes in the Lord, implying he has faith in the Lord, who counts that to Abraham as righteousness. This is confirmed by Romans 4:3.

Romans 4:5 goes on to say, “And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness…” (Commentators say that use of the word “ungodly” in this context means we are all ungodly until God justifies us individually to be godly.) Does that mean you don’t have to work, that you only need to express your faith in God to obtain His Grace? But that seems to run counter to Matthew 7:21 which says you need to do God’s Will to enter His Kingdom. How do you enter God’s Kingdom except by His Grace?

Character traits are not earned as the result of our works, but rather they are embodied through our works. The only way to attain a character trait is through faith, but what it means to attain a character trait is to become a doer of works that embody that trait. For example, the only way to become courageous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. This is why everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God is righteous (1 John 3:4-7) and why the faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works upholds our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). Everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of the law, which is how Paul can deny in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous.

While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because be believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19), and that he offered Isaac because he believed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). The Bible does not suggest that Abraham passively believed God, but rather he actively worked to bring about the promise.

What does God’s Will entail? What stands out are the two great commandments of Jesus: To love God with all your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. But as Jesus implies in Matthew 7:21, it takes more to show your love for God than to just say ‘I love you, Lord.’

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast will saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so it is straightforward that the Father has made His will known through His law (Psalms 40:8).

For the rest of us, seems we are stuck with some earthly rationalization between faith, work and God’s Grace. God looks at us in terms of our faith in Him, Yet James 2: 17 says “So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” To the idea of God counting as righteousness the belief that merely believing in God can be counted as righteousness, Verse 21 says “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?”

We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works. s.