Tong's teaching on Romans 11.
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Romans 5:2 is too much overused and misused, it appears. The focus really there is Jesus Christ, not faith, at least in my reading.
And the question remains, will a true Christian reject Jesus Christ? If not, then there should be no issue as to whether the Christian will later reject Christ or not.
Tong
R2802
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The Bible is not written "to" us; it is written about us, but not "to" us. Consider Paul's epistle to the Romans. Paul is writing "to" those believers living in Rome. This is a letter written specifically to them. They are the intended audience. Someone kept a copy of the epistle so that what Paul said to those believers might be heard by others, including us.
Why does this matter? In order to hear and understand Paul in the way he intended, we need to bear in mind at least three things: Who is writing; The intended audience; and the background events that predicated the letter. We do this naturally with other letters we might read from friends or family. And we should do the same when reading the epistles.
We do not "resist the truth" when we attempt to get properly oriented to the text, or point out when interpretations of the text fail to adjust to the author's intended audience.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The so-called "plain" meaning of the passage is an illusion. Why do I say that? Typically, our sense of what any passage "plainly means" is solely based on familiarity. The "plain meaning" of a passage is the way it was first taught to us, or the way we first understood it. If we come to understand it differently, then that meaning becomes the plain meaning. See?
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
It’s written TO me and it’s about me, a man.
"...It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)
For:
"...blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:28)
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 1:7)
As a saint, beloved of God, THIS IS FOR ME! And it’s for men to hear and be saved and walk in truth!
Your first MAJOR error: treating the Bible like any other letter from uninspired writers.
This will lead to even more error.
But to answer your questions:
Who is writing: Paul, a saved man inspired by God.
The intended audience: All mankind and all the saints.
The background events that predicated the letter: God wanting to make known unto man the way of righteousness and salvation!
Romans 5:2 refutes your point of view; so of course you would take the stance that it is overused and misused. It is the perfect scripture to refute Calvinistic teaching; along with John 1:12.
And of course we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
And, we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2).
Yes, I wlll keep quoting that verse until the cows come home; for as long as you continue to contradict it with your theology. For I believe that the verse in question proves it to be heretical in nature.
A "Christian" can later reject Christ if his or her faith is not genuine. Such a Christian may even believe that they are eternally secure in Christ.
So, believing in eternal security is no guarantee of eternal security.
I believe that real eternal security is not apart from holiness (1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).
Let us say, "Come Holy Spirit and redeem a greater number of people before Jesus comes!"
Amo 5:18, Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:19, As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20, Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
So, you're saying that every prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation.
(see 2 Peter 1:20).
See also 2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv).
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
No, first of all, Peter isn't talking about the process or technique of how one comes to understand the meaning of the Bible. as we understand the term. Peter is talking about the source of Biblical Prophecy and how we came to know the purposes and plans of God. He says, " for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." Peter is not focused on exegesis; he is focused on the transmission of inspired revelation.
"Interpretation" is what we all practice, whether we know it or not. In order to understand your post, I use the same skills I use to understand any form of communication including the Bible. Peter is not objecting to the process of exegesis and hermeneutics. He is assuring his readers that his message and writings were not his own invention. His information comes directly from inspired sources including the Holy Spirit.
Why I said it is misused is when it used to support something it says nothing about. We can quote the same scriptures a million times over, but that will not change what it says.
Yes a “Christian” can, but not the “true Christian”. So, please read my question carefully and I quote:
“will a true Christian reject Jesus Christ?”
The Holy Spirit had already come when the Lord Jesus after He ascended back to heaven, sent Him, even then, convicting the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgement.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!”
Tong
R2812
No prophecy of the scripture is of any private "interpretation".
Here, Peter is not only talking about the process by which holy scripture came into being; but he is also talking about how we understand holy scripture as we read it off the page.
Paul said that the apostles "used great plainness of speech" (2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv)) when they penned the holy scriptures...and that to me indicates that the scriptures are not hard to understand when you look at them with an analytical mind.
Truly, the word of God is foolishness to the natural man; and he cannot receive or know the full reality of what they are talking about; for they are spiritually discerned.
However, I do believe that the natural man is able, simply by reading the scriptures, to understand the message of salvation and if he receives that, he will also be able to discern by the Spirit the deeper things of what the holy scriptures teach us.
Because I don't think that God hid his gospel from mankind but revealed it to all.
Of course the god of this world blinds the minds of unbelievers lest they should see the glorious light of the gospel. But it is not for lack of concise communication as God has given His precise understanding that can be understood by the human mind if it be unhindered by satanic forces that would seek to convolute the message to the human mind.
The word of the Lord itself is accurate and understandable. God did not make Himself known in words that we cannot understand except when He spoke in parables over the fact that the heart of the people was calloused and therefore if they would have understood the message they would only have been more accountable but it would not have brought them to repentance. Those who would stay on as disciples showed that their hearts were tender and so Jesus explained the parables to them; and none of what He preached to that inner group of people was too hard or too difficult to understand. The only reason why the scriptures might not be understood properly would be because the person reading them has a divested interest in a different interpretation.
The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. Sometimes He may even inspire something to be written in holy scripture that is heretical in order that that concept might be thought of in its proper context and so that He can deal with the problem using other scripture.
The way that the heresy is worded will bring an abhorrence of that doctrine in the minds of the people who hear it and they will search for its refutation in the rest of holy scripture. And when they find it, they have a certain victory over that mindset.
Romans 5:1-2 says everything that needs to be said about the Calvinistic viewpoint that we are born again before we have faith. Since we cannot be born again without grace, it shows clearly that faith comes before grace and therefore before becoming born again of the Holy Spirit.
However, you also mentioned it in the case of a "Christian" without using the adjective "true"; making the case that the "Christian" will not reject Christ later.
I will agree with you that this is true of the "true" Christian.
What I am saying is that there are those who believe that they are "true" and that they have eternal security, who are not even saved.
You should think about that.
He came in power on the day of Pentecost; and subsequently came in power on other occasions in church history; traditionally called "revivals".
Peter, having described his experience hearing God's voice affirming Jesus, then says, "we have a more sure word of prophecy that we do well to heed".
Peter devalues the witness of his own eyes and ears compared to the inspired writings of the prophets.
I think this verse in Peter is one of The Most misunderstood verses in the Bible.
Much love!
That's not true.
He's speaking of the origin of the prophetic writings.
2 Peter 1:20-21 LITV
20) knowing this first, that every prophecy of Scripture did not come into being of its own interpretation;
21) for prophecy was not at any time borne by the will of man, but being borne along by the Holy Spirit, holy men of God spoke.
Much love!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You are dealing with a bad translation. I believe the proper understanding of the Greek behind the English is expressed by the commentators of the NET Bible.
20 Above all, you do well if you recognize this: No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, 21 for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NET Bible
Peter isn't saying anything about how to read and understand the scriptures here. His focus is entirely on the source of divine revelation.
Agreed. Let's not defeat this statement.
Just bear in mind that Paul's "natural man" isn't a stupid man. Paul's natural man is a rational man, one who does not allow for the supernatural. During Paul's time, some Greek philosophers were just beginning to explore mathematics and physics and the debate concerned epistemology: what is the most reliable source of knowledge? Should we focus on the empirical, or the rational? (The Bible would say both are needed.) For Paul, however, the natural man was smart and intelligent but unwilling to allow for divine revelation. He argues that spiritual knowledge, i.e. knowledge we gain from the Holy Spirit is also valid.
Exactly.
It depends on what you mean by "heretical". Everything in scripture is true as we know, but often times we must allow scripture to be critical of orthodoxy. The Bible is often critical of orthodoxy.
As we carefully parse Paul's thought here, we must account for the phrase "this grace in which we stand", which assumes there are other "graces" God might grant. For we understand that heart surgery is another grace God grants, which isn't a grace in which we stand but a grace that predicated our walk of faith. Some of us believe that if God had not softened our hearts and opened our eyes, we would never have come to saving faith.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Of course, bear in mind the distinction I have made.
Suppose Mary writes a letter to Joe, telling him that she found another man, John. She wants to break up with Joe, in order to pursue her new relationship with John. Suppose Mary's new boyfriend reads the letter. What can we say about it? The Letter was written to Joe, not to John. But although the letter was NOT written to John, the letter contains information relevant to John.
Hopefully you can see from my example above that Paul's intended audience for his epistle to the Romans was the saints living in Rome, as he himself explicitly says. Those of us who are not living in Rome during the first century have a "third party" orientation. And we can confidently say that although Paul wasn't writing specifically to us, he was writing about all saints in general. Just as John wasn't the intended audience of Mary's letter, we are not the intended audience of Paul's epistle to the Romans. And just as Mary's letter contained information relevant to John, Paul's epistle to the Romans contains information relevant to us.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Let's consider Paul's epistle to the Galatians. Do you think Paul was writing this to YOU?
Galatians 3:1
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
I don't think you would consider yourself a foolish Galatian. Paul is writing to the Galatians, not to us. His intended audience are the Galatian churches, as he explicitly says.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
This is TO ME to learn from; how not to be corrupted.
"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." (Romans 15:4)
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Romans 11 ... Ronald's teaching!
God has not cast away Israel (vs. 1, 19)
He broke off the branches because of their unbelief (vs. 20)
Because of their unbelief, they were blinded (vs. 7-10)
Therefore, if you (unbelievers) continue in His goodness ... (22). >>>What is His Goodness? HIS Grace, His Love, His Word, His guidance that leads you to salvation, when He calls, you follow and respond.
>>> Unbelief is not continuing in that path towards salvation and not continuing in His goodness.
Vs. 23 confirms Paul is speaking to unbelievers saying: "If you do not continue in unbelief, you will be grafted in.
Vs. 24 confirms Jews will be grafted in more naturally, because they already know and believe in God and scriptures (only were blinded about one thing - Who their true Messiah was. Of course, not believing in Jesus means lack if discernment of scripture - no depth of truth. Still they know and believe much more than the non-Jew unbeliever.
Vs. 25 Blindness of Israel remains until the fullness (the numbers) of the Gentiles are complete. When does that happen? (Matt. 24:14)
VS. 26 All Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. (* Unsure if this may be a remnant 1/3 = about 5 million).
Vs. 27 He has a covenant with Israel (the actual bloodline) that has not been fulfulled.
Vs. 28 They are loved!
Vs. 31. They will obtain mercy!
God has not cast away Israel (vs. 1, 19)
He broke off the branches because of their unbelief (vs. 20)
Because of their unbelief, they were blinded (vs. 7-10)
Therefore, if you (unbelievers) continue in His goodness ... (22). >>>What is His Goodness? HIS Grace, His Love, His Word, His guidance that leads you to salvation, when He calls, you follow and respond.
>>> Unbelief is not continuing in that path towards salvation and not continuing in His goodness.
Vs. 23 confirms Paul is speaking to unbelievers saying: "If you do not continue in unbelief, you will be grafted in.
Vs. 24 confirms Jews will be grafted in more naturally, because they already know and believe in God and scriptures (only were blinded about one thing - Who their true Messiah was. Of course, not believing in Jesus means lack if discernment of scripture - no depth of truth. Still they know and believe much more than the non-Jew unbeliever.
Vs. 25 Blindness of Israel remains until the fullness (the numbers) of the Gentiles are complete. When does that happen? (Matt. 24:14)
VS. 26 All Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. (* Unsure if this may be a remnant 1/3 = about 5 million).
Vs. 27 He has a covenant with Israel (the actual bloodline) that has not been fulfulled.
Vs. 28 They are loved!
Vs. 31. They will obtain mercy!
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