Tong's teaching on Romans 11.

[justbyfaith]

You are dealing with a bad translation. I believe the proper understanding of the Greek behind the English is expressed by the commentators of the NET Bible.

20 Above all, you do well if you recognize this: No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, 21 for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NET Bible

Peter isn't saying anything about how to read and understand the scriptures here. His focus is entirely on the source of divine revelation.

First of all, the kjv is not a bad translation.

Secondly, the NET is a bad translation. I believe that it is that very translation that gives Jehovah's Witnesses an out from a very clear-cut verse that speaks of the Deity of Christ (Acts of the Apostles 20:28) by translating it slightly differently so that it does not support that doctrine.

As we carefully parse Paul's thought here, we must account for the phrase "this grace in which we stand", which assumes there are other "graces" God might grant. For we understand that heart surgery is another grace God grants, which isn't a grace in which we stand but a grace that predicated our walk of faith. Some of us believe that if God had not softened our hearts and opened our eyes, we would never have come to saving faith.

We must assume that "this grace wherein we stand" in Romans 5:1-2, is saving grace; and that therefore it is the grace that regenerates and renews the human soul in the Holy Ghost.

And therefore, since we have access to this grace by faith, it should be clear that regeneration does not come about apart from faith first being in the individual. Therefore faith is the catalyst for regeneration; and not regeneration the catalyst for faith.

We find something similar in John 1:12.

It does not say, "To them who became the sons of God, to them he gave the power to believe in and receive Him."

(You would expect it to say that if the Calvinistic view on the order in salvation were applicable.)

It puts things in the opposite order.

Jhn 1:12

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Therefore, if you (unbelievers) continue in His goodness ... (22). >>>What is His Goodness? HIS Grace, His Love, His Word, His guidance that leads you to salvation, when He calls, you follow and respond.
>>> Unbelief is not continuing in that path towards salvation and not continuing in His goodness.

Redefining goodness as being a profession of faith in Jesus; whether that profession changes the life of the "believer" or not, I believe is a misapplication of what God means by goodness. Let us not redefine the word so that it does not mean what it means when we look it up in the English dictionary. Let us teach that goodness is defined morally by adhering to the moral tenets in the word of the Lord.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Redefining goodness as being a profession of faith in Jesus; whether that profession changes the life of the "believer" or not, I believe is a misapplication of what God means by goodness. Let us not redefine the word so that it does not mean what it means when we look it up in the English dictionary. Let us teach that goodness is defined morally by adhering to the moral tenets in the word of the Lord.

It wasn't meant as being the same as faith, I was just making a point about goodness. Everything that is good comes from God, including the gift of faith - you don't agree?
We can lump the fruit of the spirit as all good. A person is drawn to God by goodness (as opposed to evil) in different ways and this leads to faith and salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

It wasn't meant as being the same as faith, I was just making a point about goodness. Everything that is good comes from God, including the gift of faith - you don't agree?
We can lump the fruit of the spirit as all good. A person is drawn to God by goodness (as opposed to evil) in different ways and this leads to faith and salvation.

Of course goodness is not only faith in Jesus. It is in fact, as you say, the fruit of the Spirit that results out of faith in Jesus.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is TO ME to learn from; how not to be corrupted.

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." (Romans 15:4)

Okay. Learning from Scripture is a good thing. Carry on brother.

 

[CadyandZoe]

First of all, the kjv is not a bad translation.

I wasn't referring to the entire translation. My comment was directed at that particular passage.

We must assume that "this grace wherein we stand" in Romans 5:1-2, is saving grace; and that therefore it is the grace that regenerates and renews the human soul in the Holy Ghost.

Based on other passages, I wouldn't make that assumption.

We find something similar in John 1:12.

It does not say, "To them who became the sons of God, to them he gave the power to believe in and receive Him."

Right, but neither does it say "those who were blind and hard hearted suddenly, and out of the blue, believed a doctrine that could get them kicked out of the synagogue or worse, get them killed." Do you really believe that human beings are naturally endowed with this kind of faith? That doesn't seem to be the Biblical picture, does it?

 

[justbyfaith]

I wasn't referring to the entire translation. My comment was directed at that particular passage.

You appear to be preaching smorgasborg religion.

Based on other passages, I wouldn't make that assumption.

That is where we disagree.

Based on other passages (such as Ephesians 2:8-9), we discover that we are saved by grace.

And also, assuming you are correct, I would ask you what kind of grace it is that you think is spoken of in Romans 5:2, grace that we have access to by faith?

Prevenient grace? That does not make sense. Does someone need faith to be a recipient of prevenient grace? Prevenient grace is the teaching that he sends His rain and His sun on the evil and the good.

What other kind of grace is there?

The ball is in your court.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You appear to be preaching smorgasborg religion.

And you appear to be someone without an actual objection.

That is where we disagree.
Based on other passages (such as Ephesians 2:8-9), we discover that we are saved by grace.

Yes, but the meaning of those two verses is understood in the light of the beginning of Paul's treatise, where he talks about the spiritual blessings God is granting to the saints. These blessings, he says, are both "in the heavenlies" and "in Christ." I believe the phrase "in the heavenlies" is an idiom, describing a quality of being, not an actual place, i.e. heaven. Jesus describes it this way,

Matthew 16:19-21

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.​

Jesus compares earth with heaven, highlighting the contrast between the durability of existence on earth and the durability of existence in heaven. On earth, treasures are subject to moth, rust and thieves; in heaven, treasures are not subject to moth or rust or thieves. Given this definition then, we understand better what Paul means when he says that the spiritual blessings are "in the heavenlies". He means to say that the spiritual blessings are not temporal, they are both permanent and perpetual.

In the next few verses, Paul defines what he means by the phrase "in Christ", referring to a select group of human beings whom God will bless with both permanence and eternal existence. The larger question for Paul is whether or not a person is "in Christ" or not. If an individual is "in Christ" then God chose that person before the foundation of the world (verse 1:4). If an individual is "in Christ", that person has been predestined to the "adoption as sons." (verse 1:5) This, Paul argues, was God's plan all along, and all "to the praise of the glory of his grace."

In other words, God's grace extends all the way back to the beginning of time, during the planning stages of the universe, when God scripted a story about redemption. Those "in Christ" are redeemed by the blood of Christ, forgiven of their trespasses, granted wisdom and insight into this grace, and given to know the secret of God's administration: to bring all of those "in Him" under the leadership of Jesus Christ, even those in the past who had never heard about Jesus.

And also, assuming you are correct, I would ask you what kind of grace it is that you think is spoken of in Romans 5:2, grace that we have access to by faith?

The "grace in which we stand" is knowledge that we are sinners in need of forgiveness, and we have that forgiveness; we are sinners condemned to die because of our trespasses; and we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

But I think you misunderstand what Paul means when he says, "Therefore, having been justified by faith . . ." He is not saying, as you seem to suggest, that we are justified because of our faith. No but rather, what Paul means is that our faith proves that we are among the group whom God has justified. In other words, our faith is not the basis for our justification; our faith is evidence of our justification as he says in Hebrews 11.

 

[justbyfaith]

The "grace in which we stand" is knowledge that we are sinners in need of forgiveness, and we have that forgiveness; we are sinners condemned to die because of our trespasses; and we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

So, is this saving grace or not?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, is this saving grace or not?

You'll figure it out.

 

[justbyfaith]

You'll figure it out.

Of course it is saving grace...and therefore you have lost this argument.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course it is saving grace...and therefore you have lost this argument.

How does it defeat my argument? Be more specific.

 

[MatthewG]

@Tong2020,

You have said that Romans 11:20-22 is being misinterpreted by some of us because we don't understand it in its context of the whole chapter of Romans 11.

So, here is your opportunity to give your teaching on how the context of the passage nullifies the plain meaning of the passage.

Have at it.

I am really all ears; and I want you to convince me of your point of view.

Would John 15, help understand Romans 11:20-22?

 

[CadyandZoe]

@Tong2020,

You have said that Romans 11:20-22 is being misinterpreted by some of us because we don't understand it in its context of the whole chapter of Romans 11.

So, here is your opportunity to give your teaching on how the context of the passage nullifies the plain meaning of the passage.

Romans 11:17-21
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I haven't read Tong's interpretation. I might if someone gave a link to it. In the mean time, I would like to give my observations of how some people misunderstand the passage.

Mistake:
Branches = persons

Problem:
This interpretation has Paul argue for ideas and concepts he clearly denies elsewhere.

Questions:
Would Paul ever consider an individual Jew to be holy simply because he was a Jew? This idea doesn't seem to square with his earlier teaching.
Would Paul ever teach that God removed an individual Jew to make room for an individual Gentile?

 

[MatthewG]

Also just for the sake of Romans 11: itself In context it is talking about Israel - The Children of Israel (Gods chosen nation/people)- Israel's rejection is not total and is yet not final from 11 :1 to 11:11

So for context sake it is also talking about Israel.

 

[MatthewG]

Romans 11:17-21
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I haven't read Tong's interpretation. I might if someone gave a link to it. In the mean time, I would like to give my observations of how some people misunderstand the passage.

Mistake:
Branches = persons

Problem:
This interpretation has Paul argue for ideas and concepts he clearly denies elsewhere.

Questions:
Would Paul ever consider an individual Jew to be holy simply because he was a Jew? This idea doesn't seem to square with his earlier teaching.
Would Paul ever teach that God removed an individual Jew to make room for an individual Gentile?

Hello CadyandZoe : Found this today; about branches being people = mistake

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 15: Jesus is talking here and talks about if a man doesnt abide in Christ ~ The man is cast forth as a branch, ~ and they become dried up spiritually and endure personal sufferings away from God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello CadyandZoe : Found this today; about branches being people = mistake

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

John 15: Jesus is talking here and talks about if a man doesnt abide in Christ ~ The man is cast forth as a branch, ~ and they become dried up spiritually and endure personal sufferings away from God.

Yes, I agree. Paul is using branches to make one point, while Jesus is using branches to make another point. Jesus is describing people who forsake the faith and turn somewhere else for fulfillment and life. If we don't remain in him, that is, if we stop following Jesus to follow another teacher, we will lose all possibility of fulfillment and eternal life.

Jesus gives us a verbal clue to his use of the branches metaphor when he says, "If a man not abide in me . . . etc." Man is singular. Thus, he is talking about individuals.

Paul, on the other hand, is talking about Israel taken as a whole as you pointed out earlier. In his metaphor, the branches represent generations of Jews, which is based on a prophetic word from Moses, recorded in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 29.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, I agree. Paul is using branches to make one point, while Jesus is using branches to make another point. Jesus is describing people who forsake the faith and turn somewhere else for fulfillment and life. If we don't remain in him, that is, if we stop following Jesus to follow another teacher, we will lose all possibility of fulfillment and eternal life.

Jesus gives us a verbal clue to his use of the branches metaphor when he says, "If a man not abide in me . . . etc." Man is singular. Thus, he is talking about individuals.

Paul, on the other hand, is talking about Israel taken as a whole as you pointed out earlier. In his metaphor, the branches represent generations of Jews, which is based on a prophetic word from Moses, recorded in the book of Deuteronomy, chapter 29.

Okay, thank you for sharing your view point, CadyzandZoe.