Tongues and Related Issues

[Grailhunter]

To the contrary, Paul was clear regarding speaking in tongues. It was occurring in the early church, so it is no manifestation, or a secret society or occult activity. The problem with some people is that they think that the Trinity retired after the close of the Bible. Christ said the Holy Spirit would come. As far as the Holy Spirit, do you need a shovel for that hole you are digging for yourself. The Trinity is real and active and they continue to do many things and continue to interact with us. There are times I wonder when Christ returns, how many people like you will attack Him because you think God is a cardboard cutout, and should not move or do anything.

Your argument is whack.

Paul taught nothing about speaking an 'unknown' tongue, which is what you are really referring to. As I have shown in this thread, the cloven tongue of Pentecost was understood by ALL... those present, in their OWN language of birth. And the Acts 2 Scripture even points to the very dialects of their languages of birth. The 'diversities of tongues' Paul is referring to in 1 Cor.12 is about known languages that are 'learned'. He is not even speaking of the cloven tongue there in 1 Cor.12. It is a matter of history in the Christian west that God has gifted some with the gift of learning many languages. Some spoke 12 different languages fluently. That's a gift from God. And no doubt it was in order to preach The Gospel to the nations.

This has nothing... to do with the Trinity doctrine. You're just trying to pick a fight, again.

And your cardboard cutout, I'll remember that when you are made to bow at my feet in the future Millennium in order for you to worship my Lord Jesus (Rev.3:9).[/QUOTE]

My response is right on and scriptural. Paul was talking about various tongues and interpretation. In another scripture he was discussing the fact that interpretation should accompany speaking in tongues. Again, I am concerned that you will attack Christ when He returns because of how it happens will not meet with your approval.

 

[Grailhunter]

Again the Trinity is real and very active. At any time the Trinity can respond to our prayers in healings and various blessings. The close of the Bible did not gag God or tie His hands or bind Him so He cannot move or take away His ability to perform miracles. Any religion that preaches such things is a dead religion.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:4-5
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

1st Corinthians 14:27
If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

In Christian theology, interpretation of tongues is one of the spiritual gifts listed in 1st Corinthians 12 This gift is used in conjunction with that of the gift of tongues the supernatural ability to speak in a language (tongue) unknown to the speaker. The gift of interpretation is the supernatural enablement to express in an intelligible language an utterance spoken in an unknown tongue. This is not learned but imparted by the Holy Spirit; therefore, it should not be confused with the acquired skill of language interpretation. While cessationist Christians believe this miraculous charism has ceased, Pentecostal and charismatic Christians believe this gift continues to operate within the church.

Cessationist
In Christianity, cessationism is the doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the apostolic age. This is generally opposed to continuationism, which teaches that the Holy Spirit may bestow the spiritual gifts on persons other than the original twelve apostles at anytime.

 

[amadeus]

I had forgotten about this thread I started last year. Toward the end people kind of went off on tangents or worse into personal confrontations with others instead of trying to really understand each other and God. How does God speak to us? Did Jesus ever speak to any man who did not understand his words? Have any of us here never been wrong in the things of God?

Perhaps some who do not pray in tongues need to simply because otherwise they might pray for the wrong things.

 

[Truman]

I had forgotten about this thread I started last year. Toward the end people kind of went off on tangents or worse into personal confrontations with others instead of trying to really understand each other and God. How does God speak to us? Did Jesus ever speak to any man who did not understand his words? Have any of us here never been wrong in the things of God?

Perhaps some who do not pray in tongues need to simply because otherwise they might pray for the wrong things.

Hi. We are living in dark times. We need all the help God can give us. When we are arguing, are we not already defeated? Why is it so important to be right? If there's one thing I've learned, it's that doctrine will never unite us. Love will if we want it to.
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 NIV
I'll stand up for what I believe God has taught me but afterward, I ask God about things. If I'm wrong at any point, I want to know about it. If I need to repent, I repent. If I need to offer an apology, I apologize. Then I have a clear conscience and I'm good with God. Shalom.

 

[amadeus]

Hi. We are living in dark times. We need all the help God can give us. When we are arguing, are we not already defeated? Why is it so important to be right? If there's one thing I've learned, it's that doctrine will never unite us. Love will if we want it to.
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 NIV
I'll stand up for what I believe God has taught me but afterward, I ask God about things. If I'm wrong at any point, I want to know about it. If I need to repent, I repent. If I need to offer an apology, I apologize. Then I have a clear conscience and I'm good with God. Shalom.

You quote some good verses which actually provide for us a short and accurate definition of Love [or Charity in the KJV]. That entire chapter is rich and continues to bless me each time I read in spite of the dozens of times I went through it previously.

Everybody wants to be right in a discussion [men of the flesh, even men who have met the Master], but unfortunately too many people don't want to discuss, but to declare. I learned many years ago from God that until I admit to the possibility that my best or most cherished beliefs could miss the mark either slightly or greatly, I will effectively block Him. We do purposely at times block the ideas or beliefs of other men... but sometimes God is speaking the truth through those men. It may not be all the truth, but only a little point that we hold in error.

You likely remember the donkey God used to talk to a prophet who was more interested in obtaining material wealth than was spiritually healthy for him. [See Numb 22:6ff.] God can use anybody or anything to speak to us to let us know that we need to reconsider our ways and amend them so that they line up more precisely with His Way. But... if we are too certain of ourselves and not asking of the Lord and listening to the Lord, will we not limit God, Himself?

Our 'old man' is not dead if we are still tempted to sin and/or to go our own way without consulting first with God. Who is not among the double minded that James addressed?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing." Jerem 10:23-24

 

[Truman]

Hi. A while ago I asked God to give me a love for the truth. Later, when I saw the potential for the blunt truth to unnecessarily bruise someone, I asked the Lord to help me speak the truth in love. Later, He showed me that there are times when telling the blunt truth is required to get through to someone. "A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering wick He will not snuff out. In faithfulness, He will bring forth justice;'" Isaiah 42:3 I love how gentle He is. He is the Great Physician.
I realized a few months ago that I didn't want to pray for the exceedingly wicked people that the left is full of. This is a result of watching Washington and the MSM daily for 4 years. Though God has lifted that burden off of me. I was so frustrated that I only wanted to see them punished. Thankfully, God is changing this for me.
Though the daily cross is not a fun thing, it is a very good thing. I try only to talk about what I understand. Most of this has come through the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the word.
Money is necessary. Having said that, the last time I was in a church was 12 years ago. The last time I went, the prosperity gospel was taught. I never went back. I will never go back to what I left.
I've found that C.B. is a good fit for me. I know it's not perfect, but neither am I. The fact that many others know it too has a lot to do with me being here. Which is good because I need this place. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm willing and God's able. Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

Did Jesus ever speak to any man who did not understand his words?

No. The corresponding question is this: "Did Jesus speak in any other foreign language while one earth?" And the answer once again is "No".

The gift of speaking foreign languages SUPERNATURALLY was given for a time and a season. It was primarily meant for Jewish unbelievers. That time has passed. See 1 Cor 14:21-23:

In the Law [the Old Testament] it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [Note: this is exactly what happened. Even though the gift was manifested on the day of Pentecost, only 3,000 Jews were saved (out of probably 30,000)].

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

 

[amadeus]

Hi. A while ago I asked God to give me a love for the truth. Later, when I saw the potential for the blunt truth to unnecessarily bruise someone, I asked the Lord to help me speak the truth in love. Later, He showed me that there are times when telling the blunt truth is required to get through to someone. "A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering wick He will not snuff out. In faithfulness, He will bring forth justice;'" Isaiah 42:3 I love how gentle He is. He is the Great Physician.
I realized a few months ago that I didn't want to pray for the exceedingly wicked people that the left is full of. This is a result of watching Washington and the MSM daily for 4 years. Though God has lifted that burden off of me. I was so frustrated that I only wanted to see them punished. Thankfully, God is changing this for me.
Though the daily cross is not a fun thing, it is a very good thing. I try only to talk about what I understand. Most of this has come through the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the word.
Money is necessary. Having said that, the last time I was in a church was 12 years ago. The last time I went, the prosperity gospel was taught. I never went back. I will never go back to what I left.
I've found that C.B. is a good fit for me. I know it's not perfect, but neither am I. The fact that many others know it too has a lot to do with me being here. Which is good because I need this place. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm willing and God's able. Shalom

The Body of Christ is being prepared to provide a place for the Head [Jesus] of it to rest. The Head, is ready... are we, the parts of the Body, ready to assume our proper role?

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:12-14

Even as the children of Israel to precisely follow God's direction for building the tabernacle in the wilderness, carefullly preparing and finishing each part, so each part the Body of Christ, that is you and me, must be prepared.

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:27

 

[amadeus]

... Did Jesus ever speak to any man who did not understand his words?

No. The corresponding question is this: "Did Jesus speak in any other foreign language while one earth?" And the answer once again is "No".

How literal is your understanding? How carnal was Jesus?

"Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 115:4-8

The stand in's for "silver and gold idols" of today could be paper money or football games or any of many other things which men effectively worship according to the way they seek them and spend their time on them. Jesus spoke of this in designated parables as well at times when it seems to some that he was not speaking parables...

"Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." John 6:26-27

Their response to him made it clear that they still did not understand. They needed an interpreter.

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" John 6:28

Jesus answered them but as we continue to read we realize that not everyone hearing his voice was hearing/understanding his message...

"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

The gift of speaking foreign languages SUPERNATURALLY was given for a time and a season. It was primarily meant for Jewish unbelievers. That time has passed. See 1 Cor 14:21-23:

In the Law [the Old Testament] it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [Note: this is exactly what happened. Even though the gift was manifested on the day of Pentecost, only 3,000 Jews were saved (out of probably 30,000)].

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Even if most of those to whom the written words were initially addressed were Jewish, why would you presume the words were not also intended for the non-Jews who would read them in the years to come as the written scriptures? Did not God inspire men to write the words of the NT for all men, whose hearts were open, to read with understanding rather than only the naturally born descendants of Jacob? Is God a respecter of persons?

Why do you insert the words, "That time is passed"? Have you do decided or has someone you know so decided? What has God decided?

 

[tabletalk]

The Body of Christ is being prepared to provide a place for the Head [Jesus] of it to rest. The Head, is ready... are we, the parts of the Body, ready to assume our proper role?

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:12-14

Even as the children of Israel to precisely follow God's direction for building the tabernacle in the wilderness, carefullly preparing and finishing each part, so each part the Body of Christ, that is you and me, must be prepared.

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:27

You said: "The Body of Christ is being prepared to provide a place for the Head [Jesus] of it to rest. The Head, is ready... are we, the parts of the Body, ready to assume our proper role?"

Isn't it more likely that Jesus has prepared a place for the Body of Christ (the Church) to rest, rather than what you state?
(John 14:2)
"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself;..."

 

[amadeus]

You said: "The Body of Christ is being prepared to provide a place for the Head [Jesus] of it to rest. The Head, is ready... are we, the parts of the Body, ready to assume our proper role?"

Isn't it more likely that Jesus has prepared a place for the Body of Christ (the Church) to rest, rather than what you state?
(John 14:2)
"In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself;..."

Why either or? Why not both?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

 

[Grailhunter]

The gift of speaking foreign languages SUPERNATURALLY was given for a time and a season. It was primarily meant for Jewish unbelievers. That time has passed. See 1 Cor 14:21-23:

I disagree completely with your assessment of the appropriate time frame for speaking with tongues or the end of the appropriate time frame. You are entitled to your opinion, but you have no biblical support for that.

Further, for the disciples of the Apostles and further down the road the Early Church Fathers, speaking in tongues was a topic of conversation and some of it was pretty interesting, because it was still occurring.

A lot of times people associate speaking in tongues with the event of Pentecost, which was one type of tongues, and a different functional miracle....What the Apostles sounded like when they spoke at Pentecost, we do not know, but each person there hearing them understood in their own perspective language.

Then you have the type of speaking in tongues were it may not be an earthly language and the interpretation falls on another. Now I have heard of scenarios were the interpreter speaks but even those in the congregation that speak other languages can understand...I think there are several stories of that but if I remember correctly the one I was reading came out of China. Which would mean that God is still involved with all the aspects of speaking in tongues and the type of tongues that occurred at Pentecost is still occurring.

The other type, of which I have witnessed in more private setting are individuals that pray in the Spirit. And sometimes this involves tongues and seeing Christ...for example praying at His feet or before His throne in Heaven.

There are various type of cessationism, some of it denies any movement or event of the Deity. Some deny all miracles outside of the biblical era, like tongues, healings, or visitations...appearances. Then you have the type that is more selective at denying various types. Since we are talking outside of the Bible, it is matter of belief on one hand and probability on the other....in other words, is it possible that God would not do anything for 2000 years? Die on the cross for us, but stop all communication and interactions with us. It sets up issues with even prayer....Does God hear our prayers? Does God react and or respond to our prayers....any response to prayer is a miracle, so those that dabble in cessationism set themselves up as judges to determine the validity of the actions of God. Arguably you could follow this line of thinking to even Salvation, because it is definitely a miracle. So can a cessationist deny the possibility of Salvation outside of the biblical era? Once you get that theological ball rolling, how many paths can it go down? How far can it go?

 

[tabletalk]

Why either or? Why not both?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

Because He did not say 'either or, or both'.

He says 'In My Father's house there are many mansions', then He says twice He is preparing a place for his disciples.

 

[amadeus]

Because He did not say 'either or, or both'.

He says 'In My Father's house there are many mansions', then He says twice He is preparing a place for his disciples.

Where is His Father's house? Perhaps it is in the midst of any two or three gathered together in His name? What is a mansion according to God? Has anyone every been in His name who did not know the name, Jesus?

 

[tabletalk]

Where is His Father's house? Perhaps it is in the midst of any two or three gathered together in His name? What is a mansion according to God? Has anyone every been in His name who did not know the name, Jesus?

I think we are talking past each other. I'm just responding to this statement you made: "The Body of Christ is being prepared to provide a place for the Head [Jesus] of it to rest."

The Church is not (as far as I can tell in Scripture) being prepared to 'provide a place for the Head (Jesus) of it to rest'.
Do you know of a verse which says that?

 

[amadeus]

I think we are talking past each other. I'm just responding to this statement you made: "The Body of Christ is being prepared to provide a place for the Head [Jesus] of it to rest."

The Church is not (as far as I can tell in Scripture) being prepared to 'provide a place for the Head (Jesus) of it to rest'.
Do you know of a verse which says that?

One verse? Below is a post I made to this forum about 3 months ago that may clarify what I said:

"The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

What I believe is that Jesus is, or is to be, the Head of the whole Body of Christ. He was speaking about that. Now the Head is ready... that is Jesus is ready, but his words speak of his Body [you and me and all the rest who are to be] were/are not ready. As we connect with the Head via the Holy Spirit, we are growing, getting ready to be our prepared part [made without hands] of the Body of Christ. People who do not hear from the Head are then where?

Consider the coordination of the natural body of a healthy man of flesh. A piano player or a ditch digger learns to use both hands for the best result... but the coordination requires a connection to and subordination to the head/brain. The Body of Christ is to be like that, but much more complex. We can only see what God has shown or is showing us about as we connect with Him and perhaps as we read our Bibles being led by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was walking planet Earth as a man, he certainly had no place [no Body] to lay his head [He being the Head] because the Way was not yet open for the parts of the Body to be formed and connected and brought together is subjection. Jesus and the Holy Spirit have made all of the possible. But you and me and all the rest who are to be] need to be completely ready. We cannot get ourselves ready alone. God can and will do it, but we must open the way for Him and keep it open until the work in us is finished. Anyone who does not allow God will simply Not be a part.
"For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:14

"But now are they many members, yet but one body." I Cor 12:20

"That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another." I Cor 12:25

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:15-16

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col 1:18

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." I Cor 15:28