Tongues and Related Issues

[farouk]

Are you asking her to repent to you of a sin, or for acknowledgment of your infallibility?

Sounds like a good question in whatever context...

(But I'm having trouble following the thread of argument, actually...)

 

[Davy]

Again the scriptures address the fact that speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues were occurring, and Paul addressed it. As far as Pentecost and the Holy Spirit, that is only the opinion of the scriptures. lets see....

No, the Scripture is NOT talking about a gibberish tongue no one can understand, period. I well know what you Pentecostal and Charismatic types are taught. A lot of it is made up to try and support a gibberish tongue no one understands. And when someone points it out to you from God's Holy Writ in the Greek texts, you get all upset.

1st Corinthians 12:1-11 NIV
Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

The NIV above translates Greek genos as "different". In other Bible versions it's translated as "diversities", "various", "varieties", "divers", etc. In all versions... it's about VARIOUS KNOWN LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD; the word for "tongues" is Greek glossa, and that is exactly what it means, known languages. So the subject is NOT... about some unknown gibberish tongue.


Acts 2 is our example: Alternation of what was spoken:

Acts 2:3 - "tongues" = Greek glossa (languages)
Acts 2:4 - "tongues" = Greek glossa
Acts 2:6 - "language" = Greek dialektos (dialect)
Acts 2:8 - "tongue" = Greek dialektos
Acts 2:11 - "tongues" = Greek glossa
Acts 2:26 - "tongue" = Greek glossa
(KJV)

That is something Scripture often does with a subject. It's The Holy Spirit's markings in the manuscripts.

The alternation in Acts 2 of what was spoken on Pentecost is:
language
language
dialect
dialect
language
language

The idea of a language dialect is specific as to what was spoken and heard. The people heard in their OWN languages of birth, as written (Acts 2:8).

 

[Davy]

Sounds like a good question in whatever context...

(But I'm having trouble following the thread of argument, actually...)

It's basically about those who want to confuse what the cloven tongue of Pentecost in Acts 2 actually was, and also those who like to try and claim God's power to support their confusion. God is not... the Author of confusion. The devil is. This is why the True Tongue of Pentecost does not involve a gibberish confused speech that no one understands. Acts 2 is emphatic as to what was spoken on Pentecost, and what was heard by the people that day. It was not gibberish speech from the spirits.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, the Scripture is NOT talking about a gibberish tongue no one can understand, period. I well know what you Pentecostal and Charismatic types are taught. A lot of it is made up to try and support a gibberish tongue no one understands. And when someone points it out to you from God's Holy Writ in the Greek texts, you get all upset.



The NIV above translates Greek genos as "different". In other Bible versions it's translated as "diversities", "various", "varieties", "divers", etc. In all versions... it's about VARIOUS KNOWN LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD; the word for "tongues" is Greek glossa, and that is exactly what it means, known languages. So the subject is NOT... about some unknown gibberish tongue.


Acts 2 is our example: Alternation of what was spoken:

Acts 2:3 - "tongues" = Greek glossa (languages)
Acts 2:4 - "tongues" = Greek glossa
Acts 2:6 - "language" = Greek dialektos (dialect)
Acts 2:8 - "tongue" = Greek dialektos
Acts 2:11 - "tongues" = Greek glossa
Acts 2:26 - "tongue" = Greek glossa
(KJV)

That is something Scripture often does with a subject. It's The Holy Spirit's markings in the manuscripts.

The alternation in Acts 2 of what was spoken on Pentecost is:
language
language
dialect
dialect
language
language

The idea of a language dialect is specific as to what was spoken and heard. The people heard in their OWN languages of birth, as written (Acts 2:8).

lol, Sorry I do not talk to the damned! And I am not a Pentecostal type. lol I am a witness, I have seen and felt the movement of the Holy Spirit and it is a beautiful and glorious thing! Should I refer to you as Mr. Toast from now on? lol

 

[Waiting on him]

It's basically about those who want to confuse what the cloven tongue of Pentecost in Acts 2 actually was, and also those who like to try and claim God's power to support their confusion. God is not... the Author of confusion. The devil is. This is why the True Tongue of Pentecost does not involve a gibberish confused speech that no one understands. Acts 2 is emphatic as to what was spoken on Pentecost, and what was heard by the people that day. It was not gibberish speech from the spirits.

Those that heard but didn’t perceive thought them to be drunk. Most likely sounded like drunken gibberish to them.

 

[Davy]

I myself do love and use the King James, anyway...

And I also... use the 1611 KJV as my primary study Bible. It's just that I don't buy into Deborah's modern terminology changes applies to God's Word. There actually is a Dictionary based on the Old English of the 1611 KJV Bible. And that's what one would really need to refer to if they want to apply 'meanings of the day' to what is written in the KJV translation. A true scholar definitely wouldn't try to use modern terminology. So really, what I saw in her post was attempting to change what the Scripture actually reveals.

 

[Grailhunter]

It's basically about those who want to confuse what the cloven tongue of Pentecost in Acts 2 actually was, and also those who like to try and claim God's power to support their confusion. God is not... the Author of confusion. The devil is. This is why the True Tongue of Pentecost does not involve a gibberish confused speech that no one understands. Acts 2 is emphatic as to what was spoken on Pentecost, and what was heard by the people that day. It was not gibberish speech from the spirits.

The Unpardonable Sin
Matthew 12:30-32
He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[Davy]

lol, Sorry I do not talk to the damned! And I am not a Pentecostal type. lol I am a witness, I have seen and felt the movement of the Holy Spirit and it is a beautiful and glorious thing! Should I refer to you as Mr. Toast from now on? lol

Just the fact of your assuming you have the power to condemn someone, or say they are condemned to the lake of fire reveals the devil himself speaking through you. ONLY Jesus Christ has the Power and Authority to condemn someone to the lake of fire. You'd know that if you were really one of His.

 

[Grailhunter]

Just the fact of your assuming you have the power to condemn someone, or say they are condemned to the lake of fire reveals the devil himself speaking through you. ONLY Jesus Christ has the Power and Authority to condemn someone to the lake of fire. You'd know that if you were really one of His.

I have no power to condemn anyone, you did it yourself. Now you are fighting Christ! Have fun with that. Need some jelly with that toast? lol

 

[Davy]

The Unpardonable Sin
Matthew 12:30-32
He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

And there you apply condemnation to yourself! Simply because you support the devil's idea that a gibberish tongue no one can understand is what was spoken and heard on Pentecost per Acts 2!

But I have already shown from God's Holy Writ that known languages, and even the very dialects of those known languages, is what the people heard on Pentecost! No gibberish!

 

[Grailhunter]

And I also... use the 1611 KJV as my primary study Bible. It's just that I don't buy into Deborah's modern terminology changes applies to God's Word. There actually is a Dictionary based on the Old English of the 1611 KJV Bible. And that's what one would really need to refer to if they want to apply 'meanings of the day' to what is written in the KJV translation. A true scholar definitely wouldn't try to use modern terminology. So really, what I saw in her post was attempting to change what the Scripture actually reveals.

You guys are just hilarious! A true scholar is looking for accurate information. There were 1300 years of Bible translations before the KJV and 400 years after. The errors, additions, and mistranslations of the KJV have been well documented...The KJV is not a God...and God did not send out a memo that it was the preferred translation.

 

[Davy]

I have no power to condemn anyone, you did it yourself. Now you are fighting Christ! Have fun with that. Need some jelly with that toast? lol

Slander and apostasy, that is all you have to fall back on, because you heed the kundalini spirits, and not The True Holy Spirit. You think you've seen miracles, and that's The Holy Spirit? Satan does miracles too, and that's what we in the end are especially to be on watch for. I believe on Jesus Christ as my Saviour, not miracles and gibberish, falling down in the floor, squealing like animals, jerking out of control, running up and down the pews, laughing uncontrollably, etc.

1 Tim 4:1-2
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

1 Cor 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
KJV

 

[Grailhunter]

Slander and apostasy, that is all you have to fall back on, because you heed the kundalini spirits, and not The True Holy Spirit. You think you've seen miracles, and that's The Holy Spirit? Satan does miracles too, and that's what we in the end are especially to be on watch for. I believe on Jesus Christ as my Saviour, not miracles and gibberish, falling down in the floor, squealing like animals, jerking out of control, running up and down the pews, laughing uncontrollably, etc.

1 Tim 4:1-2
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

1 Cor 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
KJV

Mr. Toast....New Flash! There is something called the Trinity!

 

[Grailhunter]

I am going to say this again, I am not Pentecostal, I have not had the honor or privilege to speak in tongues. I am an unbiased witness to seeing and feeling the Holy Spirit move in several churches. If I had not witnessed that or did not believe or understand the occurrence of speaking in tongues, then I would say so. Since I believe that Christ was not kidding about the Holy Spirit I would not be so silly to talk against the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Even if I did not believe, because the scripture concerning the Holy Spirit is a general statement with a very specific judgement, by Christ Himself.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am going to say this again, I am not Pentecostal, I have not had the honor or privilege to speak in tongues. I am an unbiased witness to seeing and feeling the Holy Spirit move in several churches. If I had not witnessed that or did not believe or understand the occurrence of speaking in tongues, then I would say so. Since I believe that Christ was not kidding about the Holy Spirit I would not be so silly to talk against the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Even if I did not believe, because the scripture concerning the Holy Spirit is a general statement with a very specific judgement, by Christ Himself.

Grailhunter, it is no secret how I feel about the unknown tongues seen today. But I feel convicted I was so hard and judgmental of you when, you remained patient with my comments. Ive seen often on the board your doing this patience rather than attack; in being kind even if you disagree with a person. We may not agree on the topic ...but you are encouraging in how you take no offense in the disagreement. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Colossians 3:13-14
[13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. [14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

I am sorry I was so hard on you and consider you a brother.. regardless of where we disagree.

 

[Davy]

This truly is a very, very important documentary. The main point is, if the manifestations seen in some Churches today, like those shown in the documentary, are truly of The Holy Spirit as they say, then what in the world are those same type of manifestations doing showing up in other religions on the other side of the world, like Hinduism, etc.???

Now the secret societies of occultism no doubt would tell you a fib and say both religions are simply manifesting the same Holy Spirit, but that would be a grand lie. Because it would be saying that Jesus Christ is not the only way of Salvation, but that other religions will get you to Heaven too. That's what they teach, but it is a lie, because God's Word says ALL... must come through Jesus Christ to have eternal life.

No mystery that these kind of manifestations are happening in some of today's Churches. It gives even more meaning to Apostle Paul's warning for us to remain sober in the last days, and on watch.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter, it is no secret how I feel about the unknown tongues seen today. But I feel convicted I was so hard and judgmental of you when, you remained patient with my comments. Ive seen often on the board your doing this patience rather than attack; in being kind even if you disagree with a person. We may not agree on the topic ...but you are encouraging in how you take no offense in the disagreement. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Colossians 3:13-14
[13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. [14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

I am sorry I was so hard on you and consider you a brother.. regardless of where we disagree.

No offense taken. I am far from perfect in such matters, you apparently caught me at my best. I believe that if you do not even have basic manners, how can you profess knowledge of Christianity. What have you learned if you cannot be courteous. But I do get rough with people but it is usually when they are teaming up on someone else. I love humor and I am usually like a kid in a candy store when I fellowship with Christians. There are religions here that believe women should keep silent on religious matters and you can see it in the tone of their responses. I believe that the female voice of Christianity had been silent too long in the past, so I enjoy their discussions here. So all is good.

 

[Grailhunter]

This truly is a very, very important documentary. The main point is, if the manifestations seen in some Churches today, like those shown in the documentary, are truly of The Holy Spirit as they say, then what in the world are those same type of manifestations doing showing up in other religions on the other side of the world, like Hinduism, etc.???

Now the secret societies of occultism no doubt would tell you a fib and say both religions are simply manifesting the same Holy Spirit, but that would be a grand lie. Because it would be saying that Jesus Christ is not the only way of Salvation, but that other religions will get you to Heaven too. That's what they teach, but it is a lie, because God's Word says ALL... must come through Jesus Christ to have eternal life.

No mystery that these kind of manifestations are happening in some of today's Churches. It gives even more meaning to Apostle Paul's warning for us to remain sober in the last days, and on watch.

[/QUOTE]

To the contrary, Paul was clear regarding speaking in tongues. It was occurring in the early church, so it is no manifestation, or a secret society or occult activity. The problem with some people is that they think that the Trinity retired after the close of the Bible. Christ said the Holy Spirit would come. As far as the Holy Spirit, do you need a shovel for that hole you are digging for yourself. The Trinity is real and active and they continue to do many things and continue to interact with us. There are times I wonder when Christ returns, how many people like you will attack Him because you think God is a cardboard cutout, and should not move or do anything.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

No offense taken. I am far from perfect in such matters, you apparently caught me at my best. I believe that if you do not even have basic manners, how can you profess knowledge of Christianity. What have you learned if you cannot be courteous. But I do get rough with people but it is usually when they are teaming up on someone else. I love humor and I am usually like a kid in a candy store when I fellowship with Christians. There are religions here that believe women should keep silent on religious matters and you can see it in the tone of their responses. I believe that the female voice of Christianity had been silent too long in the past, so I enjoy their discussions here. So all is good.

It was nice what you did for another member. I don’t agree with much of what he says. but I also don’t agree with blaming someone for condemnation and then turning around and condemning them. Nor accusing someone of criticizing, then turning around to criticize them. Your humor dissolves arguments...for a couple of post anyways.

 

[Davy]

To the contrary, Paul was clear regarding speaking in tongues. It was occurring in the early church, so it is no manifestation, or a secret society or occult activity. The problem with some people is that they think that the Trinity retired after the close of the Bible. Christ said the Holy Spirit would come. As far as the Holy Spirit, do you need a shovel for that hole you are digging for yourself. The Trinity is real and active and they continue to do many things and continue to interact with us. There are times I wonder when Christ returns, how many people like you will attack Him because you think God is a cardboard cutout, and should not move or do anything. [/QUOTE]

Your argument is whack.

Paul taught nothing about speaking an 'unknown' tongue, which is what you are really referring to. As I have shown in this thread, the cloven tongue of Pentecost was understood by ALL... those present, in their OWN language of birth. And the Acts 2 Scripture even points to the very dialects of their languages of birth. The 'diversities of tongues' Paul is referring to in 1 Cor.12 is about known languages that are 'learned'. He is not even speaking of the cloven tongue there in 1 Cor.12. It is a matter of history in the Christian west that God has gifted some with the gift of learning many languages. Some spoke 12 different languages fluently. That's a gift from God. And no doubt it was in order to preach The Gospel to the nations.

This has nothing... to do with the Trinity doctrine. You're just trying to pick a fight, again.

And your cardboard cutout, I'll remember that when you are made to bow at my feet in the future Millennium in order for you to worship my Lord Jesus (Rev.3:9).