Tribulation VS Great Tribulation

[Willie T]

Well, if you can dial back on the intelligence insult, that whole discourse in Matthew 24th chapter started after Jesus had prophesied that the stones of those Temple will be thrown down for when His disciples had asked Him 3 questions.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first question is towards what Jesus has said about when the stones of the Temple will be thrown down. That would be 70 A.D. , right?

Then they had asked for the sign of His coming which is a separate entire question that obviously is not related to when the stones of the Temple being thrown down as it was in 70 A.D.

Then they had asked when the end of the world will be which again, it did not happen when the stones of the Temple were thrown down in 70 A.D.

Wisdom is needed here because Jesus is answering those 3 questions and not necessarily in order as He has gone back and forth in answering those 3 questions.

So for the the verse you had quoted in question;

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I see Jesus referring to the 3 angels that will set up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining upon the earth for the coming great tribulation after the pre great trib rapture as the first angel is preaching the everlasting gospel everywhere so that everybody will know the gospel without excuse;

The second angel will declare Babylon ( USA ) as fallen as one third of the earth is burned up, setting the stage for the new world order and the mark of the beast system to survive in that new world order on the 2/3 rd remaining part of the earth.

The third angel will inform everyone the consequence for taking the mark of the beast to buy & sell which is the lake of fire... no ifs, nor buts about it.

So everyone will know the gospel, everyone will know of the calamity of fire on that one third of teh earth with America as fallen, and everyone will know the consequence for taking the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire as setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth.

So what follows is the event in the great tribulation because it cannot be applied to the 70 A.D. event, even though preterists argues that someone did enter the Holy of holies and defiled it as such before destroying the temple. Maybe so, but the prophesy below did not happen after the everlasting gospel was preached everywhere and so..

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

So it is fro Israel as they are the only ones keeping the sabbath during that great tribulation and not the saints. Do note how Jesus ascribed the event as only happening during the great tribulation below.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Now we can debate how verse 22 applies, but I hope you can see why I take that part of Jesus's answer as having happened after the rapture event when the 3 angels are setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

Dispite the flood of words, I still ask the same very basic question of why any of those warnings I mentioned earlier would apply to us today. They would not. Not in the slightest. They were meant for the Jews listening to Him who would see a slowly approaching army of marching soldiers from their rooftops, and would have 30 minutes to an hour or so to run before the army could reach Jerusalem. (Which, BTW, is exactly what history tells us happened.)

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Wrong. Jesus' admonishing there in Rev.2:10 is to the Church at Smyrna, one of the two Churches He had no problem with. And the point of my posting that verse was to prove to you using Scripture that Jesus didn't promise to save our flesh, but instead to save our soul. There is absolutely no connection there with a pre-trib rapture idea. You're adding that.

Jesus gave the warning to the church at Thyatira as that applies to any church in iniquity and as for the reference of yours being of the 2 good churches, that is only true as long as they hold fast. So if they do not hold fast, then consequences will befall them. That goes to both of those 2 good churches for getting the reward of that crown for that reason and that is to become a castaway into the bed of the great tribulation. If you think about it, if they do not hold fast and to save their lives to earn that crown, then when they deny Him, then the Bridegroom will deny them ( unless they repent before the Bridegroom had come or natural death, however you apply it for in this life ). So a believer saving his life in this life can be denied his crown and become a castaway into the bed of the great tribulation.

As it is, every day believers that die from natural causes or accidents are having their souls present with the Lord in Heaven, just as the same as those who are persecuted and killed for being christians. Those who get persecuted and killed for being christians shall receive their crowns and those who do not hold fast unto death to save their own lives in this modern day world we are living in, shall lose the rewards of that crown and become castaways into the bed of the great tribulation. See how that works?

The event Paul showed us about for the end in 2 Thess.2 is about the time of "great tribulation" Jesus warned us of in His Olivet discourse. I'm pretty sure you well know about all that, but you don't seem to believe it as written. The placing of the abomination that makes desolate per the Daniel 11 Scripture where Jesus quoted from about the "abomination of desolation" is directly linked to the false one of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. It also linked to the false one of Rev.13:11 forward. All 3 Scripture example, Matt.24:23-26, 2 Thess.2:3-8, and Rev.13:11-15 are hard linked together about the false one who comes at the end of this world working great signs and wonders to deceive. That is when the time of "great tribulation" will be, even as Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 described it. So you can assume the word 'tribulation' as a simpleton matter, but the Scripture makes it obvious it will be a time on earth that has never been before, nor ever will be again.

As Paul is talking about 2 events and linking the falling away event that was to happen first to the iniquity already at work in his day, do note how he goes in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-15 in explaining that those who fall away and are disorderly, they are to be excommunicated in admonishing them as still brothers..

You're right it is written that He will judge His own first, as Peter said, and as Ezekiel 9 shows. But that will be on the "day of the Lord" which comes "as a thief in the night" and will end this present world by God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10-12; end of Hebrews 12). It will also end Antichrist's reign. Nothing is mentioned about a pre-trib rapture in any of those Scriptures. Again, your adding to Scripture.

Only in your eyes as limiti8nt scripture as if talking about only one event. As awful as you described the end to be... tell me how you would not think the world was coming to an end when all the world's armies are marching against Jerusalem which is a significant event only happening at the end of the great tribulation when He returns? And He returns because they were marching against Jerusalem.. so not quite the thief in the night coming.

The thief in the night coming can only apply to the times we are living now for why His saints are to be ready. It is not a warning for the whole world to be ready, but for His saints to be ready as the consequences for not being ready is to be cut off and have their part with the unbelievers in Luke 12:40-49. Unbelievers will not be cut off. Only the believers will be cut off and that was for not being ready as they receive stripes as left behind for not being ready by the measure of their knowledge for not being ready. And as they receive stripes, He still calls them His servants.

So when does that happen when believers get cut off which is the time God judges His House first for when that fire He sends on the earth is the fire mentioned in Revelation as burning one third of the earth to serve as a catalust for the coming new world order & the mark of the beast system after the pre great trib rapture event.

In that Luke 12 Scripture, our Lord Jesus said blessed are those when He comes He finds watching, and it's those He will serve at His table (in His future Kingdom). So it is not... about some erroneous idea of whether or not the believer wants go, especially since there is no mention of a rapture there about going someplace. Jesus is coming here, to Jerusalem (Zech.14); we're not going to Heaven.

Seems only believers who did not prepare themselves are cut off and find themselves with the unbelievers in Luke 12:40-49 which is indicative that some believers were ready to go and they are not cut off but with Jesus in Heaven.

Revelation doesn't say 1/3 are burned in God's consuming fire that Peter mentioned. And the one third of Zech.13 are Christ's elect that will be refined when they are tried. The consuming fire Peter spoke of will end this present world, burning ALL of man's works off this earth. The comparison Peter used in the 2 Peter 3 chapter is the previous destruction God brought upon the whole earth using water. This next time it will be by fire, Peter said there. And surely you're not making comparisons with the one third that are killed in Rev.9, because that timing isn't even the "day of the Lord" timing.

The 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all on the earth as that second angel will testify to the knowledge of fallen Babylon USA, by which one can discern how it was fallen by this reference of one third of the earth being burned up as testified by the 4 angels of the 7 with trumpets in Revelation 8:5-13. All those "thirds" is can only happen on one third of the earth for that fire to be cast upon the earth. This would explain why USA is not mentioned as part of the world's armies that marches against Jerusalem at the end of the great tribulation when Christ comes as King of kings.

If you thinking the "day of the Lord" events begin at the start of the great tribulation, which is something pre-trib rapture preachers have wrongly been teaching, then you need to rethink that. Like Peter showed on that 'day', God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth, ending this present world time. That means no more tribulation, no more Antichrist, no more beast, no more beast kingdom.

Seeing how Peter refers to not being here in this world when it happens for why they should be long suffering for and log suffering in a time where they are not being persecuted nor oppressed as they would be in the great tribulation....but resisting temptation to live as the world does in sin, well, I reckon the Lord will have to convince you of Peter's call for readiness.

Sorry, but you're starting to sound like a broken record, regurgitating popular errors of pre-trib rapture thought. If you'd bother to read the very last verse of Luke 17 (with Matt.24:28), you might discover (if you listen to our Lord Jesus there), that the 1st one 'taken' is to Antichrist, not to our Lord Jesus. Our Lord Jesus wants to find us still working for Him in the field, and at the mill grinding, and on watch, when He comes. The Left-Behind ideology is exactly opposite of what God's Word teaches.

Actually, the popular left behind ideology seems to be saying that all believers will be raptured, but that is not what the Word of God teaches. You do not get warnings from Jesus about why they need to be ready unless believers can be cut off from the vine for living in unrepentant iniquity.

If God teaches the church thru Paul to excommunicate unrepentant brethren ( 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 ) and not to even eat with them ( 1 Corinthians 5:11 ), THEN you better believe when God judges His House first, there will be an excommunication happening for why not all believers will be attending that Marriage Supper in Heaven.

That Luke 21:34 verse is just ONE verse in that Luke 21 chapter. And you are not keeping it in context with the rest of the Chapter.

Luke 21:22
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

And that is what Jesus said to pray that we be worthy to escape all that shall comes to pass ( those days of vengeance )...

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Ever read the end of the 2nd verse of Isaiah 61 about the 'day of vengeance of our God'?

Ooohhhhh make me go look it up without showing that one verse... you could have left it like Isaiah 61:2 so I can click on that reference to see the verse in question. But I shall put it in context.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Seeing how that day of vengeance shall proceed that acceptable year of the Lord where immediately afterwards, all those good things will happen in that year, I don't see that as applicable for the beginning of 7 year great tribulation.... do you? It can only happen at the end of the great tribulation, but those waste cities and building the old wastes does testify to prior destruction before that day of the Lord's vengeance.. like huge destruction.. like one third of the earth where Babylon has fallen as described in Revelation 18th chapter but happening as heralded by the 2nd angel of the 3 that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth for the coming great tribulation ( Revelation 14:6-11 ).

Not seeing my point? Okay... they will build the old wastes and the waste cities which means not just recently laid waste by the Lord in that day of vengeance of that acceptable year of the Lord. Thus there is that fire coming on the earth that is not the same as when Jesus comes back as the King of kings in dealing with the world's armies that are specifically in one place in coming against Jerusalem. The fire at that time deals with the world's armies coming against Jerusalem.

The event Jesus was talking about His servants escaping is the consuming fire destruction upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord". That's the day He was warning us about to "... take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares." The escape we are to do is to be watching and waiting for HIS COMING, and not fall away to the pseudo-Messiah that comes first, and by that, remaining "a chaste virgin" like Paul taught, we will not be subject to the "sudden destruction" coming upon the wicked and deceived.

Not sure how the world's armies marching against Jerusalem can be a day that comes upon any believer as unaware. How did the devil and the world's armies knew when He was coming? So not so much like a thief in the night warning which is why it can only apply to the somewhat idyllic times we are living in for when He comes as a thief in the night as the Bridegroom and not as the King of kings.

This is why Paul told us in 1 Thess.5 that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", and when the deceived and wicked start to say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. He said to the Thessalonians he had no need to teach them of that day, for they already knew, and that we are not assigned to God's wrath. The wrath Paul was referring to has to be that time of the "sudden destruction", and that event will only occur on the final day of this present world. We are to be aware and watching all the way up to the time of Christ's 2nd coming on that final day. That is the only... time He is coming.

I reckon you have to ascertain why the allegory of the Bridegroom is used at all in regards to being ready for that Bridegroom as those 5 foolish virgins were not ready for when they were out to the market getting that extra oil for their lamps; hence the "holy rollers" of those apostate movements which is happening now in these latter days in droves as the tribulations of our times before rapture and then the great tribulation comes.

 

[Davy]

Jesus gave the warning to the church at Thyatira as that applies to any church in iniquity and as for the reference of yours being of the 2 good churches, that is only true as long as they hold fast. So if they do not hold fast, then consequences will befall them. That goes to both of those 2 good churches for getting the reward of that crown for that reason and that is to become a castaway into the bed of the great tribulation. If you think about it, if they do not hold fast and to save their lives to earn that crown, then when they deny Him, then the Bridegroom will deny them ( unless they repent before the Bridegroom had come or natural death, however you apply it for in this life ). So a believer saving his life in this life can be denied his crown and become a castaway into the bed of the great tribulation.

The seven Messages are according to a heavenly pattern for the candlesticks. They are blueprints for all Churches today. And because Bible prophecy for the end is already given about 2 Churches standing with God's two witnesses in Rev.11, we already know they will not be deceived. So your iffy condition does not work when speaking of the subject of God's elect which are sealed with His seal. They will not be deceived, and we can count on that according to Scripture.

Your talking out in left field, you obviously don't have any Biblical proof of what you've said before in trying to support a pre-trib rapture theory, and I don't care to keep showing Biblical proof against the idea and argue with someone who apparently doesn't have anyone else to converse with.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I'm not even going to go there, since you have apparently been blinded away from the last days purpose of the cloven tongue.

Hmm....I can only hope that for this discussion to progress that you will tell me the purpose of the cloven tongues...

You show you really don't understand who the 144,000 are either. I'll bet your preachers you listen to hate any teaching on the ten lost tribes of Israel, which were never Jews.

Does the absence of teaching necessitates the judgment that preachers hate that teaching of the ten lost tribes of Israel? Cause I don't believe so.

The Jewish historian Josephus said the title of 'Jew' began with the remnant of the house of Judah that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity. The house of Judah referred only... to the southern kingdom of Judah, specifically the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi.

Isn't this reasoning self defeating? I mean... it cannot be referred to the House of Judah only when Benjamin and Levi are with them as considered as Jews. I reckon that because Judah had the largest land in proportion to Ben, and well, Levi has not land to identify with being of the system of the priests, was why the tribes of Ben and Levi were grouped together with Judah in how others were addressing them by which they accepted the term.

The ten northern tribed kingdom was removed by the kings of Assyria before the house of Judah (Jews) went captive to Babylon. You've got a lot of catching up to do on that Bible history, starting at 1 Kings 11. And if you don't know it, you won't know who the 144,000 are. In short, only 1/3 of the 144,000 represent Jews. The rest represent ten tribe Israelites. All 144,000 represent the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, and are part of Christ's Church. That's why the angels in Rev.7 are to hold back until those are 'sealed' with God's seal. And those are not some 'tribulation saints' idea. They are simply sealed Israelites in Christ's Church. The "great multitude" of Rev.7 represent sealed Gentiles in Christ's Church. Both go through the great tribulation.

I am aware that of the 144,000 Jews chosen to be witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation ( as this outpouring happened at His appearing by which the everlasting gospel went to all the world for how those 144,000 witnesses became born again...) as God judged His House for why the dispensation of the gospel ended with the times of the Gentiles because of the falling away from the faith, in giving it back to the Jews. I know Revelation 7:1-8 listed 12,000 from each tribe as being of that 144,000 and no destruction on the earth was to happen until they were sealed; thus this had occurred after His appearing from which the everlasting gospel was preached in all the world. Then after they were sealed, then the destruction comes as heralded by the second angel of the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth,

As for the name of the Jews for not representing Israel as a whole...

Matthew 27:11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.......37And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.

John 2:12And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 5:1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

I am pretty sure that the rest of the ten tribes did not mind regarding their passovers and their feasts as of the Jews.

As for no one from the "lost tribes" were in occupied Israel at that time is an assumption.

Luke 2:1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. 2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) 3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David

If Joseph had to go to his city of his tribe, imagine where the other ten tribes had to go to in regards to that decree in that reign?

Evidence of someone from the tribe of Asher being in Israel...

Luke 2:36And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

So... is it a safe bet that all of the tend tribes were in Israel at the time? If not then, then surely the event at Pentecost shows the custom of devout Jews of their annual visit to Jerusalem from every nation under heaven.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

Surely, some of them were of this "lost ten tribes of Israel".

Something to reconsider on your research and back ground study on the so called lost ten tribes of Israel.

The cloven tongue is real; it's just not a gibberish 'unknown' tongue, but one that is understood by all present, as was done on Pentecost in Acts 2. It most likely is the one tongue which all nations spoke prior to the tower of Babel event. In 1 Cor.14, the KJV translators added the word "unknown" to tongue. The actual Greek just says 'glossa', which means a known language. That is what The Holy Spirit is going to do again, as Pentecost was actually an example for the event in the last days just prior to the "day of the Lord" (Joel 2:28-31).

I believe in the real God's gift of tongues and it defers from the supernatural tongue in the world that is just vain & profane babbling nonsense as gained by a spirit separate from salvation by which promotes that apostate callings in seducing believers in chasing after in receiving for a sign.

I believe the 144,000 Jews.. yeah.. that's right.. "Jews" as representing Israel as a whole, will be given God's gift of tongues when needed to do so speaking to foreign people in foreign lands.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Dispite the flood of words, I still ask the same very basic question of why any of those warnings I mentioned earlier would apply to us today. They would not. Not in the slightest. They were meant for the Jews listening to Him who would see a slowly approaching army of marching soldiers from their rooftops, and would have 30 minutes to an hour or so to run before the army could reach Jerusalem. (Which, BTW, is exactly what history tells us happened.)

That was a double prophesy meaning one that can be repeated again since the Third temple is prophesied to be built so that when the command goes out to build that third temple, that is when the great tribulation begins from which midway that great tribulation, the son of perdition will be revealed.

That is why there are preterists claiming most of His words prophesied as having happened already and yet He is not here reigning as the King of kings, now is He?

Incidentally, can you read posts in normal size text or do you need to read them in the size you are posting in? For my information and any one else in replying to your posts so you can read it, brother. Normal size text below.

This is the normal size text.

Can you read that aboove or do you prefer this size?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The seven Messages are according to a heavenly pattern for the candlesticks. They are blueprints for all Churches today. And because Bible prophecy for the end is already given about 2 Churches standing with God's two witnesses in Rev.11, we already know they will not be deceived. So your iffy condition does not work when speaking of the subject of God's elect which are sealed with His seal. They will not be deceived, and we can count on that according to Scripture.

So this prophesy was just a practical joke in warning every one what was going to happen in the latter days? 1 Timothy 4:1-2 I don't believe so.

As you have said that the seven messages are blueprints for all Churches today and so are the consequences for all churches today; as they all share the consequence of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation for not preparing themselves to be ready to go in meeting the Bridegroom.

Your talking out in left field, you obviously don't have any Biblical proof of what you've said before in trying to support a pre-trib rapture theory, and I don't care to keep showing Biblical proof against the idea and argue with someone who apparently doesn't have anyone else to converse with.

Somehow I do not see all His warnings to believers to be ready or else, as talking out in left field when Jesus wasn't.

 

[Willie T]

That was a double prophesy meaning one that can be repeated again since the Third temple is prophesied to be built so that when the command goes out to build that third temple, that is when the great tribulation begins from which midway that great tribulation, the son of perdition will be revealed.

That is why there are preterists claiming most of His words prophesied as having happened already and yet He is not here reigning as the King of kings, now is He?

Incidentally, can you read posts in normal size text or do you need to read them in the size you are posting in? For my information and any one else in replying to your posts so you can read it, brother. Normal size text below.

This is the normal size text.

Can you read that aboove or do you prefer this size?

Personally, I just tap a key if any text might be too small. The main reason I post in #5 font is so that I can easily spot the posts I have made.
And the reason my Signature is smaller is because I want it to be quickly distinguished from the rest of my post. Many people post in the same text their Signatures are in, and it sometimes leads to thinking all the words are the body of their post.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Personally, I just tap a key if any text might be too small. The main reason I post in #5 font is so that I can easily spot the posts I have made.

Okay. I guess I should keep replying in normal text so you can continue to easily spot your post in this thread... unless I am replying to amadeus.

 

[Willie T]

Okay. I guess I should keep replying in normal text so you can continue to easily spot your post in this thread... unless I am replying to amadeus.

That will work fine. Thank you for considering me, though.

 

[amadeus]

For all the readers who can't read that fine print in your signature...

Your signature looks different from the last time I had read it. At any rate, I had set it at 6 for the largest print and it still comes out looking like that. Go figure.

Thanks for the effort to increase it. For you to increase someone else's quote you have to increase inside the brackets of the quotation:

I am the righteousness of God, in Christ Jesus... and that's a pretty good place to be living.
"True eloquence consists in saying all that is necessary, and only that which is."
François Duc de La Rochefoucauld
Bill Everett - Vineyard of St. Petersburg, FL

 

[Willie T]

JiF,
I just noticed, my Signature is exactly the same font size your Signature is.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

JiF,
I just noticed, my Signature is exactly the same font size your Signature is.

I finally enlarged my signature to the largest text size. I had thought it was high time it can be read plainly for my signature. Thanks.

 

[Davy]

Hmm....I can only hope that for this discussion to progress that you will tell me the purpose of the cloven tongues...

Study Joel 2, which Apostle Peter pointed you to in Acts 2 when the cloven tongue manifested on Pentecost. And don't make the mistake of thinking that I support some 'unknown' gibberish tongue no one can understand. That's not the cloven tongue of Pentecost per the Acts 2 example.

Does the absence of teaching necessitates the judgment that preachers hate that teaching of the ten lost tribes of Israel? Cause I don't believe so.

Yes, it does, as there are many which are against it, especially those of converted Jews.

Isn't this reasoning self defeating? I mean... it cannot be referred to the House of Judah only when Benjamin and Levi are with them as considered as Jews. I reckon that because Judah had the largest land in proportion to Ben, and well, Levi has not land to identify with being of the system of the priests, was why the tribes of Ben and Levi were grouped together with Judah in how others were addressing them by which they accepted the term.

Do you use that excuse when you disagree with fact?
Per the Jewish historian Josephus, the title of Jew began with those who returned from Babylon, which per Bible history and secular history were the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the northern ten tribes. The majority of the northern ten tribes remained in the northern lands, and sided with Jeroboam, king of Israel. Now that's God's Holy Writ, not my reasoning. Since you apparently think that's just some reasoning of mine, it suggests you need more Bible study. You might begin at 1 Kings 11 and continue through 2 Kings 17, 1 & 2 Chronicles, and also Ezra.

I am aware that of the 144,000 Jews chosen to be witnesses for the duration of the great tribulation ( as this outpouring happened at His appearing by which the everlasting gospel went to all the world for how those 144,000 witnesses became born again...) as God judged His House for why the dispensation of the gospel ended with the times of the Gentiles because of the falling away from the faith, in giving it back to the Jews.

That right there is just a reasoning of your own, not backed by God's Holy Writ. It wrongly assumes that all Israelites are Jews when they are not all Jews. That title of Jew, like Josephus said, began with those of the "house of Judah" (3 tribes) and he said it came from the name Judah (Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book XI, Chapter 5, Sec.7).

You also show other Biblical errors. The time of the Gentiles is still not up today. The Gospel has still not gone to all the world today; there are many in the nations today not allowed to hear The Gospel preached to them, mainly Muslim nations, and even the nation of Israel is against The Gospel, and has burned Christian Bibles. And the time of the great apostasy (falling away) of 2 Thess.2 has yet to happen, because it is tied to the appearing of the Antichrist, and it don't mean a pope either.

I know Revelation 7:1-8 listed 12,000 from each tribe as being of that 144,000 and no destruction on the earth was to happen until they were sealed; thus this had occurred after His appearing from which the everlasting gospel was preached in all the world. Then after they were sealed, then the destruction comes as heralded by the second angel of the 3 angels that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth,

Yet only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi made up the southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" after God had split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. I've already showed where to read about that history. The "kingdom of Judah" was the southern kingdom under Solomon's son Rehoboam at Jerusalem. The "kingdom of Israel" was the northern kingdom under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim which God made king over the northern ten tribes, and his capital city was at Samaria. The two kingdoms warred against each other.

Jews = originally it meant the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the northern tribes that refused king Jeroboam's golden calf worship, and instead sided with Judah at Jerusalem. These also included foreigners who then lived in Judea; they took the name Jew also. Thus the title of Jew became a regional title, even though it originated from the tribe of Judah (like someone from Japan that moves to New York and become known as New Yorkers, a generic title). Edomites that Judah was given to destroy their nation, migrated into Judea and became Jews. King Herod claimed to be a Jew, but was actually born of Esau (and thus an Edomite). Sammy Davis, Jr. who was a Black converted to Judasim and became a Jew, so one of any nation today can become a religious Jew and use that title.

Non-Jew Israelites - these were the northern ten tribes of Simeon, Naphtali, Zebulun, Gad, Dan, Ephraim, Manasseh, Asher, Reuben, Issachar. These made up the northern "kingdom of Israel", also called the "house of Israel" in God's Holy Writ. These were scattered by the kings of Assyria, and migrated among the nations, losing their heritage as part of Israel. Per Hosea, they would lose their knowledge of the feast days, new moons, and sabbaths, and God would hedge up their paths so they would not find their way back. To this day, they are lost to the Jews, and to the majority of the world, but not to God.

As for the name of the Jews for not representing Israel as a whole...

Matthew 27:11And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.......37And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.

John 2:12And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 5:1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

I am pretty sure that the rest of the ten tribes did not mind regarding their passovers and their feasts as of the Jews.

As for no one from the "lost tribes" were in occupied Israel at that time is an assumption.

2 Chron 11:13-17
13 And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.
14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV

Like I said, some small remnants of the northern ten tribes refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship, and instead went south to Jerusalem and sided with Judah. Thus there were 'some'... small remnants of the ten tribes among the Jews at the time of Jesus' first coming, like Anna of the tribe of Asher.

Thus any argument that the ten lost tribes of Israel were never really lost is moot. And any argument that says they are all back together today and are all Jews is moot also.

 

[Davy]

Ooohhhhh make me go look it up without showing that one verse... you could have left it like Isaiah 61:2 so I can click on that reference to see the verse in question. But I shall put it in context.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Seeing how that day of vengeance shall proceed that acceptable year of the Lord where immediately afterwards, all those good things will happen in that year, I don't see that as applicable for the beginning of 7 year great tribulation.... do you? It can only happen at the end of the great tribulation, but those waste cities and building the old wastes does testify to prior destruction before that day of the Lord's vengeance.. like huge destruction.. like one third of the earth where Babylon has fallen as described in Revelation 18th chapter but happening as heralded by the 2nd angel of the 3 that sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth for the coming great tribulation ( Revelation 14:6-11 ).

You quickly left the context of that Isaiah 61 Scripture.

In Luke 4, Jesus read the Isaiah 61:1 verse, and part of the 2nd verse up to "... and the day of vengeance of our God...". That latter part of verse 2 He closed the Book before He got to it. It's because that latter part is for the day of His 2nd coming. Thus the section of Isaiah 61 you quoted beginning at that "... and the day of vengeance..." is still yet to happen today. It's easy to know that, because His 2nd coming will be a literal bodily coming like how He ascended into Heaven (Acts 1; Zechariah 14). He hasn't returned yet, nor has the great day of God's Judgment happened yet. And any idea of those old wastes being Judah's re-inhabiting of Jerusalem today is certainly lacking, since the Jews in Israel today don't even control all of the city of Jerusalem, nor even the Temple Mount. In other Scriptures (like Ezekiel 37, and 48, God showed what He means by rebuilding Israel's old wastes in the future).

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Do you use that excuse when you disagree with fact?
Per the Jewish historian Josephus, the title of Jew began with those who returned from Babylon, which per Bible history and secular history were the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and some small remnants of the northern ten tribes. The majority of the northern ten tribes remained in the northern lands, and sided with Jeroboam, king of Israel. Now that's God's Holy Writ, not my reasoning. Since you apparently think that's just some reasoning of mine, it suggests you need more Bible study. You might begin at 1 Kings 11 and continue through 2 Kings 17, 1 & 2 Chronicles, and also Ezra .

You emphasize God's Holy Writ but the lack of correction from Jesus during all His time on earth means what exactly?

That right there is just a reasoning of your own, not backed by God's Holy Writ. It wrongly assumes that all Israelites are Jews when they are not all Jews. That title of Jew, like Josephus said, began with those of the "house of Judah" (3 tribes) and he said it came from the name Judah (Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book XI, Chapter 5, Sec.7).

Josephus did not really say that it was wrong or against God's Holy Writ, now did he? Neither did Jesus. He just simply explained the origin of Jews for how the world addressed the people of Israel.

Certainly, none of His disciples seem to make a big deal about it in all their writings, so why should you?

James 1:1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.....

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

See that above? I am convinced that the 12 tribes were there at Jerusalem when Pentecost had happened for James to be writing the way he did. There were born again believers in every tribe of Israel.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

You quickly left the context of that Isaiah 61 Scripture.

In Luke 4, Jesus read the Isaiah 61:1 verse, and part of the 2nd verse up to "... and the day of vengeance of our God...". That latter part of verse 2 He closed the Book before He got to it. It's because that latter part is for the day of His 2nd coming. Thus the section of Isaiah 61 you quoted beginning at that "... and the day of vengeance..." is still yet to happen today. It's easy to know that, because His 2nd coming will be a literal bodily coming like how He ascended into Heaven (Acts 1; Zechariah 14). He hasn't returned yet, nor has the great day of God's Judgment happened yet. And any idea of those old wastes being Judah's re-inhabiting of Jerusalem today is certainly lacking, since the Jews in Israel today don't even control all of the city of Jerusalem, nor even the Temple Mount. In other Scriptures (like Ezekiel 37, and 48, God showed what He means by rebuilding Israel's old wastes in the future).

There are 3 events being talked about in that passage, brother.

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

The preaching of the gospel; which is the acceptable year of the Lord...

"the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; "

The day of vengeance of our God as pertaining to His return as the Bridegroom to comfort all that mourn at the pre great trib rapture...

" and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;"

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion when He returns as the King of kings in establishing His millennium reign on earth.

"2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations."

You may not agree with it, but just sharing how I read those passages as testifying of, thanks to Jesus Christ from Whom all wisdom comes from.

There is merit since everything associated with that acceptable year of the Lord has to deal with the preaching of the gospel.