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Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 11:19 says, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

    There is a heresy called Tritheism that defends itself by calling the opposing emphasis on the Oneness of God heresy; even though the one who is emphasizing that Oneness is not denying that God is distinctly three Persons (and yet One).

    In Acts 24:14 Paul the apostle said, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets.

    The true Trinity is held to be heretical by those who think that they believe in the Trinity and yet in all reality they believe in Tritheism. It should be clear from the holy scriptures that there is one God.

    Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.

    Mark 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

    Notice here that the Lord is God. And also, we have the following statement in Matthew 11:25:

    At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.

    Again, scripture teaches that there is one Lord...

    Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Now here there is one God, and a Lord separate from Him, if the Lord isn't God (the Father). However, we have already seen that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29) and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. This one Lord is the God who created us, Jesus Christ; and I contend here faithfully that He is the Father.

    Isaiah 9:6-7, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.


    Jesus is the Lord:

    1 Corinthians 12:3,
    Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    There is one Lord:

    Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    That Lord is the Father:

    Matthew 11:25,
    At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    Luke 10:21,
    In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    If anyone does not have the Holy Ghost, they do not belong to Christ:

    Romans 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost:

    1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    The Father is the Lord:

    Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


    Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.


    There is one Lord:

    Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So I think that I have made it clear that there is a Oneness between the Father and the Son:

    John 10:30,
    I and my Father are one.

    It should be clear that both Jesus and the Father are the one Lord of scripture.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Part II:

    There is one God according to scripture.

    Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD:

    James 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    That one God is, the Father:

    James 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

    Romans 15:6, That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him: and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Ephesians 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Now in Malachi 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal every man treacherously against his brother, by profaning the covenants of our fathers?

    Jesus is the everlasting Father:

    Isaiah 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace.

    He is specifically defined as the Son pertaining to the flesh.

    Hebrews 1:8, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

    Romans 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

    Isaiah 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

    Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and is thus a distinct Person from the Father, since He is a Man, in the flesh.

    The Father inhabiteth eternity:

    Isaiah 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is holy; I dwell in a high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

    He descended into time and then ascended back up into eternity:

    Ephesians 4:10, He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

    Therefore there are two Persons...who are also the same Person, though the 2nd Person has experiential knowledge of being human and also is human...dwelling in eternity.

    God the Father descended to become a Man and later ascended as that Man to sit upon the throne at the Father's right hand.

    He also did not vacate eternity when He descended; for it is the nature of eternity that if anyone dwells there, they are there eternally.

    So God did the impossible in the descending, see Luke 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

    After having lived one eternal moment, He descended into time and became flesh and dwelt among us:

    Ephesians 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    From the Son's perspective it has already happened. From the Father's (experiential) perspective it has yet to happen.

     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Now, the Holy Ghost.

    There is one Spirit:

    Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    And He is the Father:

    John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    He is the Holy Ghost:

    John 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).

    And He is the Father:

    John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    He (the Father, even the Holy Ghost) is the Spirit of Jesus:

    John 14:7-11, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest not thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    The human Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (that One who inhabiteth eternity):

    Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Again, there is one Spirit:

    Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    That Spirit is Jesus:

    Colossians 1:27, To whom God would make make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    1 John 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    Ephesians 3:17, That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith: that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

    A person cannot have the Son and therefore have life unless He is a Spirit come to dwell in them; and yet it is clear from scripture that He is come in the flesh:

    (the short version), 2 John 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    Therefore Jesus is both come in the flesh (as the Son) and also the Son is a Spirit (1 John 5:12, above) that comes to dwell within us. This Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Ghost; even Jesus Christ, the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

    And Jesus is also a human being, come in the flesh, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    In the Old Testament God reveals Himself as YHWH.

    And He also is the great "I will be who I will be".

    He reveals Himself in different capacities to Israel under the name YHWH with an adjective placed after His name.

    Examples of this are YHWH-Tsidkenuh, YHWH-shalom, YHWH-rapha, and YHWH-jireh.

    (The LORD our righteous banner, the LORD our peace, the LORD our healer, the LORD our provider).

    When Jesus came into the world, He was given the name Jesus (YHWH our salvation).

    Jesus Christ has always been our salvation, even before the incarnation.

    Thus Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; because before the incarnation He was the Father, and the Father's name is Jesus Christ as He is now revealed to us.

    Matthew 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost:

    Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    There is one name to be baptized under, and that is the name of Jesus Christ:

    Acts 4:10,12, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand before you whole. This is the stone that was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    For baptism does have the power to save:

    1 Peter 3:20-21, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    While baptism does not put away fleshly filth, it does wash away sins:

    Acts 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Therefore baptism in Jesus' Name is the only way to salvation; after you know who the Lord is, of course: baptism in titles won't cut it.

    Acts 2:39, For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Therefore if you are called, you will fulfill the condition of the promise (the promise is the Holy Ghost; and the condition is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins).

    Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Finally, if you are not called, then you were never predestinated, you will not be justified, and you will not be glorified (if you are predestinated and have not been baptized, then you will be baptized with Acts 2:38 salvation at some point in the future):

    Romans 8:30, Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    I would encourage you with the following words:

    Matthew 7:7-8, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

    I would also point out the following:

    Matthew 7:13-14, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Deuteronomy 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    Jeremiah 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  5. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    All of the above makes the scripture to lie. When Jesus himself said, "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son....", ..."For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
    As I read the above, I am constrained to believe that if Jesus said that God sent His Son into the world, I am thus convinced that God had a Son to send. Not became a Son.
     
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  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 10:5, Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    The body that was prepared was the human flesh of the Son, Jesus Christ; who is the Father come in human flesh...Jesus is the Son of God in that He is come in the flesh...

    Isaiah 9:6-7, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace.

    The Father is a Spirit:

    John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    And He dwells in the flesh body of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God in that in His flesh dwells all the fulness of the Father:

    John 14:7-11, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith into him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest not thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
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  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    As a seventh-day adventist, you also believe that Jesus is the archangel Michael, from what I remember.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The devil would dissuade a man from believing the four posts/messages above in this thread.

    "All of the above" is the faithful testimony of scripture.

    There is a biblical hermeneutic involved:

    1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  9. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    ~ jbf ~. good post...

    (Do however disagree with a couple of points....

    I don't believe God and the Lord were ever "separated".

    I don't believe Jesus Became a "human man", since ALL "human men" come forth from DUST of the Earth, the Jesus came forth out from God.

    I believe Jesus was manifested "in the likeness AS a man, called a man by others, called himself the Son of man.....which ALL faithful believers "on Earth", ARE sons of Abraham, a man, promised to be a "father" of many nations......(of Believers having the seed of God).

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  10. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe Michael is the OT name for Jesus because I'm Seventh Day Adventist. I believe it because the scriptures suggest it. Though as a doctrine, it isn't a hill I see worth dying for. In other words, if you can disprove it, by all means I'm willing to listen.
     
  11. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    As the 'last Adam', the seed of Abraham and the son of David, I think it fairly conclusive that Jesus was fully human. Not to mention the child of a human mother. As His own testimony declared, "no spirit has flesh and bones as you see I have".
     
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  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I think I will just take @Dave L's tactic in the last thread; and proclaim that it is heresy.
     
  13. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Scripture I never have a problem with. It's the conclusions finite men draw from scripture that sometimes has me baffled.
     
  14. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    The only foundation for claiming it to be untrue is the assumption, I repeat assumption, that Michael is a created being. No where in scripture does it state that an archangel, not even the language suggests it, is a created angel. Yet scripture does declare the Lord as an angel...yet we don't assume He is created do we? So why take the reverse position with archangel? Being the Commander in Chief of the US armed services does not make Donald Trump a soldier. Neither does being the Lord of hosts (aka archangel, for that is what it essentially means, head of the angels) make Jesus a created angelic being. Just take your point of view from scripture alone and remove all unnecessary conjecture Cleave to what we are told, believe it, and leave it at that.

    PS, believing either way however removes not one iota from ones standing with God. Unless of course one takes things a step further and claims that Jesus is a created angel called Michael...that is an entirely different kettle of fish.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 2:14-16, Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself took part of the same: that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil: And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels: but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I am not going to be drawn into a discussion on this. It would only serve to help you promote your false doctrine.

    (I must have caught @Dave L's disease, lol!)
     
  17. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    That's fine. But you brought it up.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
  19. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Read that. Like I said, I have no issues with scripture. It's the conclusions drawn from scripture by some people that I can't get to grips with. Like your posting of that particular text as a counter to my points. Do I disagree with that text? Of course not. No where have I claimed Jesus took upon Himself the nature of an angel. So, I have no issue with that text. What was your point in posting it?
     
  20. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Well, I would TOTALLY disagree with you.

    Humans come from DUST "OF" the earth.
    Jesus was MAKING the Earth.

    How could Jesus, come forth out of DUST that HE was MAKING?

    Humans DO NOT COME forth OUT of God.
    Human ARE NOT IN Heaven.

    Jesus came forth OUT "of and from " God, IN HEAVEN.

    Jesus IS the WORD of GOD, manifested IN THE FLESH...a FLESH BODY God "prepared".

    Human BODIES are "FORMED" from DUST.

    Jesus' was SENT to Mary's virgin WOMB...

    There was NO HUMAN seed...(male sperm or female egg) involved IN Jesus being IN her
    Womb...(thus the term...she was a VIRGIN).

    There was NO "input" of mankind, into Mary being Pregnant.

    There was NO "blood" of a Human, that had anything to do with Jesus in Mary's womb.

    (Whereas WITH Humans, it is the FEMALES BLOOD, via the placenta, that feelds a human embryo; which IS NOT the case with Jesus).

    Jesus was the "seed" "OF" Abraham....
    BECAUSE "JESUS" "TOOK UPON HIMSELF" the seed of Abraham.

    Scripture notifies you...Abraham was BLESSED, with the SEED OF GOD. You either missed the lesson, or did not understand it.

    Every single man WHO, receives the SEED of God, (becomes a son of God)....AND ALSO, is taking upon "themselves", the seed of Abraham, which means "THEY" become "accounted" AS A CHILD OF ABrAHAM.

    BECAUSE....IF a man IS NOT a CHILD of Abraham....guess what? They ARE NOT...
    Entitled to OCCUPY the LAND, God Promised to Abraham....AND HIS DESCENDENTS!!

    Guess where Jerusalem IS?
    Jerusalem IS situated in part of the LAND, promised to Abraham!

    Guess where Christ's earthly Center of His Kingdom IS?
    IN Jerusalem!

    Jesus HAD to be MADE, a JEW, and a son of Abraham, so Jesus could Lawfully SIT in the everlasting Throne of king David, who was the last Human to sit as king over the Jews.
    THAT their next "king" MUST be a JEW, to have the LAWFUL (according to THEIR Jewish Law) authority TO Sit as their king.
    Jesus fulfilled the Law. He was according to Jewish Law....both Jewish, and a son of Abraham.

    AND BTW...I am a gentile, WHO ALSO took on the seed of Abraham, so I also am entitled as an heir to Abrahams LAND, thus a child of Abraham and am a son of God, and converted IN Christ...thus entitled to OCCUPY Christ Jesus' Kingdom ON Earth...on Abrahams LAND.

    Jesus WAS NOT CREATED.
    He is without beginning.

    Humans ARE Created.

    Jesus Christ....IS the Word of God, the Power of God, the Wisdom of God, the Seed of God, the Lord of lords, the King of kings,

    HUMANS are NONE of those things.

    You can challenge anything I have said...Be precise and quote me exactly, anything you want to challenge...

    And further you can show any Scripture that claimed JESUS is a "created human".

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
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