Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[justbyfaith]

You have been missed brother....

 

[shnarkle]

Ok then you tell me the names of the Gods....and then count them.
Also know that the letter J was in no language until 1400 years after Christ. Did not come into common use until 1600. They went and changed all the Y's for persons and places to J's. Yahweh...Yeshua...Yerushaláyim can be pronounced in English, there was no reason to change them. The Jews laugh at us because we do not know this! You tell me why they changed them. Hundreds of alterations to the scriptures. Technically there should not be a J in the Bible.

While I agree that there are no "J"s in the bible, the hard "J" sound is used in derision. e.g. Israel becomes "Jezreel"; Isabel becomes "Jezebel" etc.

 

[Grailhunter]

While I agree that there are no "J"s in the bible, the hard "J" sound is used in derision. e.g. Israel becomes "Jezreel"; Isabel becomes "Jezebel" etc.

Most of the issues with J's can be resolved by making a trip to Jerusalem and asking them, "How do you pronounce the name of this town in Hebrew?" From there Hebrew University is in the same town.

 

[shnarkle]

nor is it a three headed God. It is a condition and a reality that is beyond our understanding, but in loose terms..... I believe and define that there are three Gods

There is no effective difference between a three headed god and three gods.

in one Godhead which exists simultaneously in an unexplainable spiritual condition of union, that allows for the sharing of traits, principles, powers and abilities, but prevents any possibility of disagreement.

The biblical God doesn't share traits, or abilities. The Father cannot be sacrificed. Only the Son can enter into the world in the incarnation. The reason being that if there was a better way for God to enter into his creation, he would have done that instead. The father is transcendent, therefore he cannot enter into this world, but must enter in through Christ who is immanently present in the world.

Still, this being true, they have their own individual presence, minds, will, and characters. Three Gods that can sit side by side on three thrones. (I am not going to address spiritual thrones thing, it is just referenced that way in the Bible.)

Yes, these are explanations. They are ways of talking about what cannot be talked about in the first place. They cannot be taken literally without introducing error.

The Trinity makes sense, the scriptures that describe Them, make sense.

This isn't saying much of anything because one articulation of the doctrine makes sense to some while another makes sense to others. To say "God in three persons" makes no sense to me at all while "One in being with the Father"
makes perfect sense to me.



The following discussion includes scriptures that speak of the Trinity as it is referenced in the Gospels. So we are going to put this in to motion as reality and the truth will become clear as we move through the story of Christ's mission in the Gospels.

1. If Christ’s throne is on the right hand of God, He is not within God and that position although important is second to God the Father. Mark 16:19 “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

Christ himself points out that he is in the father and the father is in him. To say that he sat at the right hand of God is a idiom which means he is in a position of power. He is the right hand of God. He is the instrument of wrath. The fist of God that will pound his enemies into the ground.

2. If one had to leave before the other could come, as in the case of the Holy Spirit, this would suggest individuality.

These terms "individuality, individual, etc." are from the word "indivisible". To refer to God as a separate individual is literally an oxymoron. It is a contradiction.

8. If a person can sin against one God worse than the other...as in the case of the un-pardonable sin. This indicates separation

A better term would be "distinguished". The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be distinguished. They cannot be separated. They are One. The Shema states, "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One". This word "God" in the Hebrew is "Elohim" which is in the plural form, and probably requires a plural verb which would leave us with "Hear O Israel, The Lord your Gods are One" Christ says, "I and the Father are One". Paul clarifies the Shema for us in 1 Corinthians 8:6 when he says, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one LORD Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

When these authors use the term "one", they are not referring to numeration, but to completeness, or wholeness. They make up a complete whole; the whole of reality.

Christ the God was crucified and ascended to His Father. From one place to another.

Here again, this is only a matter of speaking. The Father cannot objectively exist in one place or another because the Father transcends place and time. Only the word enters into creation, not the father. Even the Spirit doesn't objectively enter into creation, but only subjectively into the "new creation". That is why Jesus must objectively leave. As long as one sees Jesus as someone who objectively exists, they cannot see Christ's spirit dwelling within themselves and others.

 

[shnarkle]

Most of the issues with J's can be resolved by making a trip to Jerusalem and asking them, "How do you pronounce the name of this town in Hebrew?" From there Hebrew University is in the same town.

There's nothing for me to resolve. There is no hard J in Hebrew, but that doesn't negate the fact that they use a hard J when speaking in derision. I gave you examples. Are you denying this fact? They laugh at Christianity's use of GEEE-ZUS as a prime example.

 

[shnarkle]

As the 'last Adam', the seed of Abraham and the son of David, I think it fairly conclusive that Jesus was fully human. Not to mention the child of a human mother. As His own testimony declared, "no spirit has flesh and bones as you see I have".

To have flesh and bones is not the same as being flesh and bones. It is grammatically incorrect to equate the verb to be with the genitive of possession. There is all the difference in the world between being and having.

 

[shnarkle]

Hello there,

This subject is divisive, and totally unnecessary.

Debate can be divisive, but just because people are divided on a doctrine or concept, doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad thing. Some people aren't as adept at presenting arguments as others. This requires patience, humility, charity, etc. on the part of those who are engaging them in debate.

For the word 'trinity' is not found in Scripture, however the operation of God in and through the relation of Father, the Lord Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit, are indisputable.

This is basically correct, but I would clarify it further by pointing out that it is only in, with, and through Christ that God operates with the power of the Holy Spirit. I say this because I have this problem where I get careless with my speech. I don't pay attention to what I'm saying, and as I have worked on this problem, I see it all the time now.

God knows our feeble frame, and He has spoken to us in words and in ways that we are able to comprehend.

This is a good point, but it also spotlights an even bigger problem which is getting these thoughts and ideas from our minds to our hearts. It's that thousand mile journey where the doctrine must live. It's where the idea must move to manifest in our lives. The idea of love isn't going to change the world, but love itself manifesting in the world.

All we are called upon to do, is to BELIEVE, RECEIVE and ACKNOWLEDGE what is written for our learning.

Here again, chronology is important because I cannot believe what I have not yet received. Peter confesses that Christ is the messiah because that is what has been revealed to him from the father. It is the power of the holy Spirit that enables him to believe and acknowledge this existential fact. However, I'm not even sure that's right. He may have to acknowledge this fact before he can believe. I don't know that knowledge is necessary for belief though. It may be the other way around. I'm not even sure one needs to acknowledge it at all. Believing may be all that is necessary. I say this because the only mediator necessary is Christ. Therefore we needn't mediate reality with our intellect at all. Children don't need to think about things. They can see things without having to think about them.

Not endlessly argue about concepts that are so 'other' that our finite minds are not able to do them justice.

All concepts, by definition; are abstract or "other". They can never be what they refer to. This goes for everything that exists. The problem that arises is that we're dealing with ideas that transcend the created world which precludes them from existing in reality. This is what creates disturbing ramifications to the believer who needs to be able to talk about God in terms that don't carry these ramifications.

Just rejoice in the knowledge that God has given, and don't play Satan's game of divide and conquer.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Not to be divisive or argumentative, but God has given us Christ who is the way, the truth and the life. Knowledge is a good thing, but it can't validate the truth. the truth is always and everywhere self evident. if we're going to debate issues, then knowledge is necessary, but it is also necessary not to mix falsehoods in with God's truth. Christ himself points out that he did not come to bring peace, but "with a sword" that cuts down to the marrow to divide the truth from lies.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all,

Not to be divisive or argumentative, but God has given us Christ who is the way, the truth and the life. Knowledge is a good thing, but it can't validate the truth. the truth is always and everywhere self evident. if we're going to debate issues, then knowledge is necessary, but it is also necessary not to mix falsehoods in with God's truth. Christ himself points out that he did not come to bring peace, but "with a sword" that cuts down to the marrow to divide the truth from lies.

I agree, so let's put an end to any none sense by the word of God the TRUTH, which is KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING of the Scriptures.
First, thanks to all who have posted to these topics. But now the realization of the truth about the trinity has come full circle. “THERE IS NO TRINITY”. what I’m about to say is not to be taken in any derogatory manner, nor the belittling of anyone personally, ok , just making a statement of truth.

The TRUTH is, It has been attested to that the Person in John 1:3 is the same Person in Isaiah 44:24. with that knowledge, and the fact that the Lord Jesus, (who cannot Lie), testified that the Person, whom we call God is a “HE”, in the beginning, (Matthews 19:4, and Mark 10:6), confirm this TRUTH. at the beginning, "HE", MADE man male and female by himself, and he was ALONE when he made them male and female in the "BEGINNING". this is crystal clear doctrine. So by the Lord Jesus statement, it nullify any notion that there was any “US”, nor any “OUR” at the BEGINNING when “HE” God “MADE” man male and female. for Isaiah 44:24 states that he was "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF" when he made all things including man, (male and Female).

Now the plain Statement follows. not calling any names as said before, if one say they follow Christ, and yet believe not what he says, then one is not a follower of Christ. The scriptures are clear, God is a “HE”, in the BEGINNING, a single Person who made all things. knowing this, then there was no other with him in the BEGINNING. This is confirmed by the one whom we claim to follow, the Lord JESUS. It’s anyone, not calling any name, it’s anyone’s choice to accept the TRUTH, or stay in darkness, that’s your business. My Job is complete, in that we brought you the TRUTH, by the holy scriptures. So it’s your choice to consider what has been posted for your edification.

UNDERSTAND, the "US" and the "OUR" in Genesis 1:26 is God TO COME or manifest himself in flesh. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come".

so in the BEGINNING, there was ONY "HE" when God made all things. this is scripture, Isaiah 44:24, Matthews 19:4, and Mark 10:6. these scriptures confirm that there was only "ONE" person whom we call God in the "BEGINNING" that made all things. so our Lord and Saviour whom we say that we believe and follow says that God is a "HE" that made all things in the "BEGINNING, including man, (male and female), how then can one call oneself a follower of Christ and don't believe what he say?

I suggest one re-read these scriptures and get the full impact of what they say. ONE "PERSON" who is God created and Made all things BY HIMSELF and was alone, then there is no other PERSON's in the Godhead at all. consider what the Holy Scriptures is saying.

I encourage you by the name of the Lord Jesus that you do consider what has been posted. With that said, there is no need for me to argue the point of person(s) in the Godhead any more. But there is a new field of knowledge awaits the believer in understanding how our ONE GOD is a plurality of his “own”self manifested in flesh, bone, and with blood, before he was glorified in it. That is the new frontier. As the apostle Paul said, “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus”.

So what’s before me is a new world, knowing how my God save me as being the “offspring” of himself in flesh, that was to come, hence his plurality, 'elohiym as one Person. This is the HIGH CALLING in Christ Jesus.

May you all be blessed, and be well during this Christmas holiday.

PICJAG

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father and the Son are the same Person; yet distinct from one another.

 

[Grailhunter]

There's nothing for me to resolve. There is no hard J in Hebrew, but that doesn't negate the fact that they use a hard J when speaking in derision. I gave you examples. Are you denying this fact? They laugh at Christianity's use of GEEE-ZUS as a prime example.

They laugh at Christianity's use of GEEE-ZUS as a prime example.
I know this for a fact. Good to know the names of the Trinity... God the Father and God the Son deserve to have their names in the Bible.

 

[shnarkle]

Good to know the names of the Trinity...

There are no names of the trinity. There is only "the name" which refers to authority, not a literal name.

God the Father and God the Son deserve to have their names in the Bible.

The Father and the Son are not names. They are titles. The Father has no name, only the Son has a name. The name refers to authority from and through God. Jesus' name means "God's salvation", and God's salvation comes through self sacrificial obedience to the Father. Only those who are ready to obey God through self sacrifice can follow Christ.

 

[shnarkle]

Good to know the names of the Trinity...

There are no names of the trinity. There is only "the name" which refers to authority, not a literal name.

God the Father and God the Son deserve to have their names in the Bible.

The Father and the Son are not names. They are titles. The Father has no name, only the Son has a name. The name refers to authority from and through God. Jesus' name means "God's salvation", and God's salvation comes through self sacrificial obedience to the Father. Only those who are ready to obey God through self sacrifice can follow Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

There are no names of the trinity. There is only "the name" which refers to authority, not a literal name.



The Father and the Son are not names. They are titles. The Father has no name, only the Son has a name. The name refers to authority from and through God. Jesus' name means "God's salvation", and God's salvation comes through self sacrificial obedience to the Father. Only those who are ready to obey God through self sacrifice can follow Christ.

WOW

 

[101G]

The Father and the Son are the same Person; yet distinct from one another.

GINOLJC, to all.
First, the Title, which are not persons, the title "Father" and the title, "Son" is of the ONE "PERSON JESUS who is God, that shared himself in flesh.
the only distinction is, not in PERSON, but temple. one is in a temple/body, on earth in his incarnation in flesh, as the EQUAL share.
and that distinction, as said, is shown or identified in the titles "Father" Subjective, of his ownself as "Son" the Objective shared in flesh.

PICJAG.

 

[charity]

'It has long been known that the rays of LIGHT are threefold. We have the Heat rays, which are felt but not seen. We have the Light rays, which are seen and not felt, and we have the Actinic rays, which are known only by the effects of their chemical action (as in Photography), being neither seen nor felt. Even so it is with VAPOUR. We have it, invisible in the air, visible in the form of water, experienced in its effects.'

Hello there,

I found the quote (above) in a book I have, stating the threefold manifestation of light and vapour, which illustrate the same threefold manifestation of God, who Himself is spirit.

'Thus saith the LORD,
Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
neither let the mighty man glory in his might,
let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this,
that he understandeth and knoweth Me,
that I am the LORD
which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:
for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.'
(Jeremiah 9:23)

* In Numbers 6:24-26 we have, in the Aaronic BLESSING, the same threefold reference -

'JEHOVAH bless thee and keep thee.
JEHOVAH make His face shine upon thee.
JEHOVAH lift up His countenance upon thee and give thee peace.'

In Isaiah 6:3 we have the same threefold reference in the cry of the SERAPHIM :- “Holy, Holy, Holy, is Jehovah Sabaioth: the whole earth is full of His glory.”

* When we come to the Word of God, we have GOD the Giver of the Word: the Word given (CHRIST the Living Word), and the written Word revealed by the SPIRIT, and communicated by Him to our hearts.

This is not a subject to be disputed, but rejoiced in.

Praise His Holy Name

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

'According to the WORD that I covenanted with you
when ye came out of Egypt,
so my SPIRIT remaineth with you;
fear ye not.'
(Haggai 2:5)

Hello again,

In the verse above God spoke to the children of Israel, regarding the covenant He had made with them when they came out of Egypt, and here we see another threefold manifestation, for:- God (Jehovah = God in covenant with His People) speaks from heaven, through Haggai, referring to the Word of the Covenant made, and to His Spirit, which remained with them.

* Regarding creation in Psalm 33:6, is stated in this same triune way:- “By the WORD of JEHOVAH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the BREATH ( or Spirit) of His mouth.”

* Also, in regard to the Commission of the Messiah: In Isaiah 48:16 we read: “And now, ADONAI JEHOVAH, and His SPIRIT, hath sent ME.”

* In Matthew 3:16,17 the Lord Jesus Christ was consecrated for His office of prophet, and the threefold manifestation is seen again, when the SPIRIT of God descended upon Him; and the voice of the FATHER, said “This is My beloved SON.”

* This threefold working of God, is evidenced in the whole of Scripture.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris