Trinity?

[williemac]

Yes, I know. That's why Jesus says come out of Babylon. The organizations will not change.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Trinity churches dont have saving doctrines or practice.

Jesus will bring His children out of Babylon at the resurrection, also known as the rapture. When He does this, He will say to them.." Come out of her". This is not a command. It is the Lord calling us home. As far as your last comment.....don't have saving doctrines or practice? How dare you make that judgment? It is not your calling, your place, or your mandate from Jesus to write off anyone on the basis of a stereotype. Do you honestly feel that stereotyping is righteous?

It is no wonder that you have experienced the suggestion from some that you belong to a cult. And if you did, it would not be because you don't accept the trinity doctrine. I would caution the church to beware of any group that teaches or believes they are the only ones who have it right and therefore the only ones who are saved. This is what all cults have in common: Exclusivity. You feel you belong to the exclusive "saved" for the very reason that it does not hold to the trinity doctrine? But to think that you know for sure that other groups are not saved just because they do believe in the trinity....well, my friend you are in deception. You've been duped.

I, as well as many whom I know, have been filled with the Holy Spirit. And as the bible assures us, the Spirit is given as a guarantee of our inheritance. This is through faith in Jesus as Savior, who died for sin, and rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father. I sincerely hope that you have this same guarantee, and I implore you in His name to reconsider the perameters by which you unrighteously proclaim the perdition of those who are perfect strangers to you, on the basis of what organization they are with. Salvation is not gained or denied on the basis of affiliation with an organization.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Why is it that no one disputes the Holy Spirit as being God in scripture, but they always want to deny the Word as being God?
If the Word is not God then why does the Father tell all the angels to worship him?
The Father is the head but His Word/The Christ and the Holy Spirit are all One God.

Can you explain why these verses are all considered to be God Almighty when we read them, yet it sometimes says LORD or Lord?
John 20:27-29
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
KJV
Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV
Gen 15:2
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
KJV
Gen 15:8
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
KJV
Gen 18:1-3
18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
KJV
Gen 20:4
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
KJV
Ex 4:10
10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
KJV
Ex 15:17
17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.
KJV
Gen 15:8
8 And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
KJV
Josh 7:7
7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
KJV
Ex 23:17
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.
KJV

Jesus clearly says that the Father is greater than I but Jesus is the Word that proceeds from the Father's mouth. He is the living Word of life whom the Father uses to create all life.
1 John 1:1-2
1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
KJV
Matt 4:4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
KJV

 

[Guestman]

guestman, you are Jehovah Witness?

Yes, I am.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Yes, I am.

See the problem is that JW's have it correct that Jesus is not the Father all in all, but he is not just a side helper Son. Jesus is the eternal LIVING WORD whom the Father creates all things with, through and by. Jesus the Word IS the right hand of God for God creates everything by Speaking His Word.
And we are to be witnesses for Christ of His death burial and resurrection and that brings glory unto the Father. But the Bible tells us to worship Jesus for when we worship the Word we shall love the Father for the Father is the same as His Word.
Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV

 

[meshak]

And you do? What secret knowledge do you have that has eluded many Godly and learned men for millennia?

Yes, I do. I have Jesus' word. Trinity churches are following their own man-made doctrines. Most members dont even what Jesus teaches. They are just blindly following what their leaders (pastors and priests) are giving to them, Why do you think dark ages existed? It is because the leaders did not want their people to know what He teaches.

Now we have perfect word of Jesus' word is available to everyone. No one has excuse for their ignorance of Jesus' teachings and corruption of their faith.

Jesus will bring His children out of Babylon at the resurrection, also known as the rapture. When He does this, He will say to them.." Come out of her". This is not a command. It is the Lord calling us home. As far as your last comment.....don't have saving doctrines or practice? How dare you make that judgment? It is not your calling, your place, or your mandate from Jesus to write off anyone on the basis of a stereotype. Do you honestly feel that stereotyping is righteous?

It is no wonder that you have experienced the suggestion from some that you belong to a cult. And if you did, it would not be because you don't accept the trinity doctrine. I would caution the church to beware of any group that teaches or believes they are the only ones who have it right and therefore the only ones who are saved. This is what all cults have in common: Exclusivity. You feel you belong to the exclusive "saved" for the very reason that it does not hold to the trinity doctrine? But to think that you know for sure that other groups are not saved just because they do believe in the trinity....well, my friend you are in deception. You've been duped.

I, as well as many whom I know, have been filled with the Holy Spirit. And as the bible assures us, the Spirit is given as a guarantee of our inheritance. This is through faith in Jesus as Savior, who died for sin, and rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father. I sincerely hope that you have this same guarantee, and I implore you in His name to reconsider the perameters by which you unrighteously proclaim the perdition of those who are perfect strangers to you, on the basis of what organization they are with. Salvation is not gained or denied on the basis of affiliation with an organization.

Yes, it is my calling to tell the world that trinity churches are misrepresenting Jesus with their violent faith and practice.

If you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will not advocate violent faith.

I have guarantee that as long as I am faithful and loyal to Jesus, I am secured.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Trinity churches have violent fruit whicih is not of God nore of Jesus. You cannot mock God.

See the problem is that JW's have it correct that Jesus is not the Father all in all, but he is not just a side helper Son. Jesus is the eternal LIVING WORD whom the Father creates all things with, through and by. Jesus the Word IS the right hand of God for God creates everything by Speaking His Word.
And we are to be witnesses for Christ of His death burial and resurrection and that brings glory unto the Father. But the Bible tells us to worship Jesus for when we worship the Word we shall love the Father for the Father is the same as His Word.
Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV

I am not JW but they have it correct about Jesus and His Father relationship. I will not join any organization because we cannot aim for perfection if we are in the organization.

What do you see is wrong with guestman's comments?

blessings.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Yes, I do. I have Jesus' word. Trinity churches are following their own man-made doctrines. Most members dont even what Jesus teaches. They are just blindly following what their leaders (pastors and priests) are giving to them, Why do you think dark ages existed? It is because the leaders did not want their people to know what He teaches.

Now we have perfect word of Jesus' word is available to everyone. No one has excuse for their ignorance of Jesus' teachings and corruption of their faith.


Yes, it is my calling to tell the world that trinity churches are misrepresenting Jesus with their violent faith and practice.

If you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will not advocate violent faith.

I have guarantee that as long as I am faithful and loyal to Jesus, I am secured.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Trinity churches have violent fruit whicih is not of God nore of Jesus. You cannot mock God.


I am not JW but they have it correct about Jesus and His Father relationship. I will not join any organization because we cannot aim for perfection if we are in the organization.

What do you see is wrong with guestman's comments?

blessings.

Hi meshak
The main problem is the Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus to be just an angel who helped God create the world as, but that is only because it has not been for men to understand who Jesus is and so they do understand correctly that it is the Father who seeks our worship as Jesus told us, but the angels are told by God to worship the Son and if Jesus were just an angel, then he would not allow himself to be worshipped as diety. Jesus told us to direct our prayers to the Father, not himself, and not the Spirit either. So I do agree with the JW's on this. But the Father and His Word and the Spirit are all one God.
Right here the Word warns to not fall into the trap of worshipping angels, so clearly Jesus is not just an angel.
Col 2:18
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
KJV
Heb 1:6-8
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
KJV
Heb 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV
Matt 2:11
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
KJV
Matt 28:9
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
KJV
Mark 5:6
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
KJV

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus did not teach trinity in the gospels. Why do you add your own doctrine to His messages?

Jesus is the Lord, not added doctrines.

this is for excubitorand and biggandyy too.

Jesus created the world ....do you deny the truth?

 

[Rach1370]

Jesus did not teach trinity in the gospels. Why do you add your own doctrine to His messages?

Jesus is the Lord, not added doctrines.

this is for excubitorand and biggandyy too.

Can I ask you a question? And I would appreciate it if you actually answered it...

You say Jesus is not equally God. You say the "Son of God" is but a title, one that does not equal Christ's deity.
How then do you deal with the fact that the Bible says we are only to worship God...but it also tells us that Jesus is also worshipped?
Worship means reverence paid to a divine being. If Jesus was offered and accepted worship, then by doing so He was confirming His divinity.





10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’” (Matthew 4:10, ESV)






30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.” 31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (Matthew 14:30-33, ESV)


The bible also tells us that Jesus is the exact image of God...that he shares attributes with God...attributes that ONLY God could have.


He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. (Hebrews 1:3a)





For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son, today I have begotten you”?

Or again,
“I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?

6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”

7 Of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,and his ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, 12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
“Sit at my right right hand until
I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? (Hebrews 1:5-13)



You say over and over that "Trinity" Churches are full of filth and deception, and yet you have shown no biblical proof of your claims. And you certainly haven't given any hint of a reasonable explanation for the scriptures given to you to do prove the Trinity.
Time you step up to the plate and do some explaining....

 

[Episkopos]

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

The words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one" at 1 John 5:7 in many Bibles were added by a later hand in a Latin treatise. They are not in the earliest Greek manuscripts of the Bible, such as the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century.

In order to support the trinity that had become official Catholic (meaning "universal" or "one size fits all" religiously) doctrine during the end of the 4th century under Roman Emperor Theodosius I, someone placed it as supposedly a legitimate Scriptural addition. Even the Catholic Jerusalem Bible (in a footnote) says that these words are not found in any early Greek or the best Latin manuscripts of the Bible, being spurious.

In addition, the reading of "God was made manifest in the flesh" at 1 Timothy 3:16 is an alteration of the oldest reading of "He (who) was made manifest in the flesh". In a seeming attempt to support the trinity, someone carefully altered "He" (Greek hos) to "God" by means of a small alteration of the Greek word hos, changing it into a contraction for God. The oldest Greek manuscripts read "he" instead of "God" and through the efforts of Konstantin Von Tischendorf, it was found that the word "he" is accurate.

And the old "standby" of John 1:1, whereby many Bibles read that "the Word was God" to support the trinity. Because of the lack of a definite article in Koine Greek, many assume that it reads "The Word was God" instead of "the Word was a god." Most never give serious consideration to the contextual reading, in which the word "God" in the 1st instance is preceded by the Greek word ton ("the" in English) whereas in the 2nd instance it is not, but in the 3rd instance it is. Yet of "the Word", in all three instances in verses 1 and 2, the Greek word ho (also"the" in English) precedes the Greek word logos.

Nor do they ask how "the Word" can be "with God" (being mentioned twice) and at the same time be "God". They just accept "orthodox Christianity" teaching on this, that says that Jesus is God, rather than carefully examining the Bible, looking into such Scriptures as John 1:18, whereby it says that "no man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him."(also 1 John 4:12)

Or John 7, in which Jesus says to the Jews: "If anyone desires to do His (God's) will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or (Greek E, meaning "a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms") I speak of my own originality."(John 7:17) Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from God. Or of John 8:28, whereby Jesus says "that I do nothing of my own initiative (he's supposedly God but cannot think for himself); but just as the Father taught me I speak these things". Since Jesus did "nothing of his own initiative" then how is he God or since the Father "taught him", then again how is Jesus God ? Something is amiss if the belief that Jesus is God is true.

However, for those who are willing to allow the Bible to speak for itself rather than forcing a square peg in a round hole, these can readily see that Jesus is as he himself said, God's only-begotten Son, in which the word "begotten" (Greek monogenes, meaning "sole, single of it kind, only") means that Jesus was fathered, is unique, had a beginning.(Rev 3:14) At 2 Corinthians 1:3, the apostle Paul says: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (see also Eph 1:3, 17; Col 1:3)

Guestman,

The Father is Spirit so no man has seen the Father, but Jesus is the exact representation of what the Father would be like for the Father Is exactly as His Word whom is Jesus. A body was prepared for Jesus to become flesh to experience and accomplish what no fallen man could. He had the Spirit of His Father which is the bloodline. He is the Seed of God which is to say the Word of God that impregnates our hearts to transform us into the children of God. The blood of a child comes only from the father of a child and had Jesus been born of Joseph's seed/bloodline he would have be born into sin just as we.
Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
KJV

 

[meshak]

Can I ask you a question? And I would appreciate it if you actually answered it...

You say Jesus is not equally God. You say the "Son of God" is but a title, one that does not equal Christ's deity.
How then do you deal with the fact that the Bible says we are only to worship God...but it also tells us that Jesus is also worshipped?
Worship means reverence paid to a divine being. If Jesus was offered and accepted worship, then by doing so He was confirming His divinity.





10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’” (Matthew 4:10, ESV)






30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.” 31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. 33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.” (Matthew 14:30-33, ESV)


The bible also tells us that Jesus is the exact image of God...that he shares attributes with God...attributes that ONLY God could have.


He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. (Hebrews 1:3a)





For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son, today I have begotten you”?

Or again,
“I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?

6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”

7 Of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,and his ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; 11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, 12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

13 And to which of the angels has he ever said,
“Sit at my right right hand until
I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? (Hebrews 1:5-13)



You say over and over that "Trinity" Churches are full of filth and deception, and yet you have shown no biblical proof of your claims. And you certainly haven't given any hint of a reasonable explanation for the scriptures given to you to do prove the Trinity.
Time you step up to the plate and do some explaining....

You say Jesus is not equally God. You say the "Son of God" is but a title, one that does not equal Christ's deity.
How then do you deal with the fact that the Bible says we are only to worship God...but it also tells us that Jesus is also worshipped?
Worship means reverence paid to a divine being. If Jesus was offered and accepted worship, then by doing so He was confirming His divinity.

Where does Jesus worship Him as God? Jesus clearly says His Father is greater that He.

Your quoting of the Scripture dont say any such thing as you claim. And I did not say Jesus is Son of God is just title.You are putting the word into my mouth.

He says over and over that He is Son of God but He never claimed "I am God."

Jesus created the world ....do you deny the truth?

Jesus was give the power to create the world. God is the source of everything.

I deny your doctrines, not Jesus nor His Father.

 

[williemac]

Yes, I do. I have Jesus' word. Trinity churches are following their own man-made doctrines. Most members dont even what Jesus teaches. They are just blindly following what their leaders (pastors and priests) are giving to them, Why do you think dark ages existed? It is because the leaders did not want their people to know what He teaches.

Now we have perfect word of Jesus' word is available to everyone. No one has excuse for their ignorance of Jesus' teachings and corruption of their faith.


Yes, it is my calling to tell the world that trinity churches are misrepresenting Jesus with their violent faith and practice.

If you have the Holy Spirit in you, you will not advocate violent faith.

I have guarantee that as long as I am faithful and loyal to Jesus, I am secured.

Jesus says we know them by their fruit. Trinity churches have violent fruit whicih is not of God nore of Jesus. You cannot mock God.


blessings.

Stereotyping is no better than violence. You have placed all trinity churches in this neat little box of yours and proclaimed things that they all are supposedly doing BECAUSE they are trinity churches. You have no way of knowing or proving just what most members know or do not know. You do not have this kind of insight into the minds of perfect stangers. It is absurd that anyone thinks he can have any resemblence to accurate assessment with so little to go on. You have been brainwashed. This is sad and pathetic, but I will sincerely caution you not to place your confidence in your own works. Our confidence is in Him, in His faithfulness, in His promise, in His sacrifice, and is most assuredly a biblical truth that the guarantee of our inheritance is given to us by the inner presence of the Holy Spirit. I did not make that up. It is taken from two sources (2Cor.5:5, Eph.1:14).

As well, your interpretation of what consitutes violent faith is just that. Your own delusion. You do not have any biblical proof that Jesus is instructing you to warn the world of trinity churches. You have most likely gone off on a tangent that is nothing more than a diversion from the enemy to keep you from your real calling. This is certainly not it, my dear friend in Christ. Our first mandate is to love one another. This fruit can be seen in plain sight in most, if not all, true believers, the vast majority of which believe in the trinity.

 

[Rach1370]

Where does Jesus worship Him as God? Jesus clearly says His Father is greater that He.

Your quoting of the Scripture dont say any such thing as you claim. And I did not say Jesus is Son of God is just title.You are putting the word into my mouth.

He says over and over that He is Son of God but He never claimed "I am God."

Nice attempt at a dodge, but you sort of failed, sorry. Jesus may have said in John 14:28 that the Father is "greater than I", but proper hermeneutics require us to look at everything Jesus said about himself:

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” (John 10:22-30, ESV)

He says that the Father is greater than all, and then says that he and the Father "are one". That is so very, very clear. You cannot continue saying that we (the nasty evil Trinity believers) dismiss what Jesus says, if you dismiss what he says as well. You must DO SOMETHING with this passage, you cannot ignore it.

And also:

28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29, ESV)

I know you have already dismissed this particular passage...saying something silly like "Thomas didn't mean to say that".
And if we look at the passage in the original greek:

ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριος μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

θεός = Theos: Strongs No: 2316 theós – properly, God, the Creator and owner of all things (Jn 1:3; Gen 1 - 3).
[Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós) referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things.]

Also, and most importantly....Jesus accepts the title of "Lord and God". Why are you refusing to see what Jesus attributed to Himself?

 

[meshak]

Nice attempt at a dodge, but you sort of failed, sorry. Jesus may have said in John 14:28 that the Father is "greater than I", but proper hermeneutics require us to look at everything Jesus said about himself:

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” (John 10:22-30, ESV)

He says that the Father is greater than all, and then says that he and the Father "are one". That is so very, very clear. You cannot continue saying that we (the nasty evil Trinity believers) dismiss what Jesus says, if you dismiss what he says as well. You must DO SOMETHING with this passage, you cannot ignore it.

And also:

28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29, ESV)

I know you have already dismissed this particular passage...saying something silly like "Thomas didn't mean to say that".
And if we look at the passage in the original greek:

ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριος μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

θεός = Theos: Strongs No: 2316 theós – properly, God, the Creator and owner of all things (Jn 1:3; Gen 1 - 3).
[Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós) referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things.]

Also, and most importantly....Jesus accepts the title of "Lord and God". Why are you refusing to see what Jesus attributed to Himself?

I dont dodge , you are the one who are inserting your own stretch. Jesus says clearly His Father is greater than He. do you need reference for that? I guess you do because you dont seem to know that.

Jesus still did not say "He is God" in your quotes.

How long are you going to keep on doing this meaningless exchange?

Here you go Rack:

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is
able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16
Verily,
verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he
that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Jesus says He is God's servant. and His Father is greater than Jesus.

 

[Rach1370]

Ok...let's keep this simple:

Why does Jesus say "I and the Father are one?"

 

[Guestman]

Ok...let's keep this simple:

Why does Jesus say "I and the Father are one?"

When Jesus said at John 10:30 that "I and the Father are one", what did he mean ? To show that they are in unity. At John 17, Jesus, in prayer to his Father just before his death, said: "I make request, not concerning these only (the disciples at that time), but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word (at a later time); in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one."(John 17:20-23)

Hence, Jesus expressed in his prayer that he wanted all his disciples to be in union with the Father, Jehovah God, to be as "one", just as he was in union with him, not divided as the churches of Christendom are. This aligns with the same principle of marriage, whereby, of both the man and the woman, that they may be "one flesh".(Matt 19:5, 6; Gen 2:24)

 

[Episkopos]

When Jesus said at John 10:30 that "I and the Father are one", what did he mean ? To show that they are in unity. At John 17, Jesus, in prayer to his Father just before his death, said: "I make request, not concerning these only (the disciples at that time), but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word (at a later time); in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one."(John 17:20-23)

Hence, Jesus expressed in his prayer that he wanted all his disciples to be in union with the Father, Jehovah God, to be as "one", just as he was in union with him, not divided as the churches of Christendom are. This aligns with the same principle of marriage, whereby, of both the man and the woman, that they may be "one flesh".(Matt 19:5, 6; Gen 2:24)

You are confused I think between being "one" flesh" and one in essence. Jesus didn't marry His Father. He proceeds from Him...from His essence. Otherwise Jesus is just some created prophet like the Muslims believe He is.

A person cannot be Christian and deny the Son is part of God. It takes the blindness of an unbeliever to not see this.

Jesus and the Father are One.... a part of Elohim (plural). The Father is greater because He is MORE than Jesus Christ. He is bigger.... just like any Son compared to any Father. But He is the same as the Father in the way that a son is "a chip off the old block."

There are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel...GOD with us. Without the divinity of Christ, we would all be dead in our sins...just like those who deny Christ are to this point in time.

Jesus Christ is come from heaven to be joined to His own creation as a Mediator. One cannot be a Mediator if one comes from the people that need the mediation. Jesus fused Himself to His creation thereby making a NEW creation in Himself...thus becoming the firstborn of THAT creation.

 

[williemac]

You are confused I think between being "one" flesh" and one in essence. Jesus didn't marry His Father. He proceeds from Him...from His essence. Otherwise Jesus is just some created prophet like the Muslims believe He is.

A person cannot be Christian and deny the Son is part of God. It takes the blindness of an unbeliever to not see this.

Jesus and the Father are One.... a part of Elohim (plural). The Father is greater because He is MORE than Jesus Christ. He is bigger.... just like any Son compared to any Father. But He is the same as the Father in the way that a son is "a chip off the old block."

There are hundreds of verses that state that Jesus is Immanuel...GOD with us. Without the divinity of Christ, we would all be dead in our sins...just like those who deny Christ are to this point in time.


Jesus Christ is come from heaven to be joined to His own creation as a Mediator. One cannot be a Mediator if one comes from the people that need the mediation. Jesus fused Himself to His creation thereby making a NEW creation in Himself...thus becoming the firstborn of THAT creation.

Good post, brother. I don't know how it can be denied. The mistake that is made by those like Meshak is to make their argument from the time period when the Son was on the earth. They ignore or are ignorant of the significance that He humbled Himself and came in the likeness of men. He put on the flesh and became a servant. In doing so, He put on the obedience to God that a man was supposed to have. But He did pray that He would be returned to the glory that He had with the Father before the world was. (John17:5) What they say about Jesus is true, as a human. What Jesus did and said as a human, was that of a human. But He was only a human in a period in time. You have rightly determined that Jesus is of the essence of His Father. If God could be thought of as a species (human termonology), they are of the same species, neither of which had a beginning, but are eternal.
Blessings, Howie

 

[101G]

to Guestman, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus the Christ.

"I and the Father are one?"
this scripture is true. the Father and the Son is ONE Spirit. to see it plainly, since you said that you're a Jehovah Witness? I ask you,

#1. Revelation 1:8 is this the Father or the Son?, your answer please.
#2. Revelation 1:17 & 18 is this the Father or the Son?, your answer please.

once you answer these question then one will know if the Father and the Son are ONE or not.

and to the trinitarians of this board. same greeting, true, God is with us, "Emmanuel". you say the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit is ONE God. if these three Person are one God, I ask, was it not the Holy Spirit who conceive the Child in Mary's womb. so by definition of the word Father, the Holy Spirit is the ONLY ONE who hold the title "Father" to the child that was conceive in the virgin Mary. question, since the Holy Spirit by definition is the Father to that child, then the title Father by definition is the Holy Spirit. with that (the title Father, belong to the Holy Spirit), this leave only two person, according to your doctrine of the trinity. for the title Father and Holy Spirit is one, and the SAME PERSON. I'll stop here for any responses to both question.

Love and Peace
101G.

 

[Episkopos]

Hear O Israel the Lord, our God, the Lord...ARE One!