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Featured True Trinity.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 11:19 says, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

    There is a heresy called Tritheism that defends itself by calling the opposing emphasis on the Oneness of God heresy; even though the one who is emphasizing that Oneness is not denying that God is distinctly three Persons (and yet One).

    In Acts 24:14 Paul the apostle said, But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets.

    The true Trinity is held to be heretical by those who think that they believe in the Trinity and yet in all reality they believe in Tritheism. It should be clear from the holy scriptures that there is one God.

    Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.

    Mark 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

    Notice here that the Lord is God. And also, we have the following statement in Matthew 11:25:

    At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.

    Again, scripture teaches that there is one Lord...

    Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Now here there is one God, and a Lord separate from Him, if the Lord isn't God (the Father). However, we have already seen that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29) and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. This one Lord is the God who created us, Jesus Christ; and I contend here faithfully that He is the Father.

    Isaiah 9:6-7, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.


    Jesus is the Lord:

    1 Corinthians 12:3,
    Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    There is one Lord:

    Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    That Lord is the Father:

    Matthew 11:25,
    At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    Luke 10:21,
    In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    If anyone does not have the Holy Ghost, they do not belong to Christ:

    Romans 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost:

    1 Corinthians 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    The Father is the Lord:

    Matthew 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


    Luke 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight.


    There is one Lord:

    Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    So I think that I have made it clear that there is a Oneness between the Father and the Son:

    John 10:30,
    I and my Father are one.

    It should be clear that both Jesus and the Father are the one Lord of scripture.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Part II:

    There is one God according to scripture.

    Deuteronomy 6:4, Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD:

    James 2:19, Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    That one God is, the Father:

    James 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

    Romans 15:6, That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him: and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    Ephesians 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Now in Malachi 2:10, Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal every man treacherously against his brother, by profaning the covenants of our fathers?

    Jesus is the everlasting Father:

    Isaiah 9:6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace.

    He is specifically defined as the Son pertaining to the flesh.

    Hebrews 1:8, But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

    Romans 1:3, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

    Isaiah 45:11, Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

    Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and is thus a distinct Person from the Father, since He is a Man, in the flesh.

    The Father inhabiteth eternity:

    Isaiah 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is holy; I dwell in a high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

    He descended into time and then ascended back up into eternity:

    Ephesians 4:10, He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

    Therefore there are two Persons...who are also the same Person, though the 2nd Person has experiential knowledge of being human and also is human...dwelling in eternity.

    God the Father descended to become a Man and later ascended as that Man to sit upon the throne at the Father's right hand.

    Mar 16:19, So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

    He also did not vacate eternity when He descended; for it is the nature of eternity that if anyone dwells there, they are there eternally. I consider this to be a first truth.

    So God did the impossible in the descending, see Luke 1:37, For with God nothing shall be impossible.

    After having lived one eternal moment, He descended into time and became flesh and dwelt among us:

    Ephesians 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    From the Son's perspective it has already happened. From the Father's (experiential) perspective it has yet to happen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Now, the Holy Ghost.

    There is one Spirit:

    Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    And He is the Father:

    John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    He is the Holy Ghost:

    John 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified).

    And He is the Father:

    John 4:23-24, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    He (the Father, even the Holy Ghost) is the Spirit of Jesus:

    John 14:7-11, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, shew us the Father? Believest not thou that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself; but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

    The human Jesus released His Spirit back to the Father (that One who inhabiteth eternity):

    Luke 23:46, And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    Again, there is one Spirit:

    Ephesians 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    That Spirit is Jesus:

    Colossians 1:27, To whom God would make make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    1 John 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    Ephesians 3:17, That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith: that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

    A person cannot have the Son and therefore have life unless He is a Spirit come to dwell in them; and yet it is clear from scripture that He is come in the flesh:

    (the short version), 2 John 1:7, For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    Therefore Jesus is both come in the flesh (as the Son) and also the Son is a Spirit (1 John 5:12, above) that comes to dwell within us. This Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Ghost; even Jesus Christ, the 3rd Person of the Trinity.

    And Jesus is also a human being, come in the flesh, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    In the Old Testament God reveals Himself as YHWH.

    And He also is the great "I will be who I will be".

    He reveals Himself in different capacities to Israel under the name YHWH with an adjective placed after His name.

    Examples of this are YHWH-Tsidkenuh, YHWH-shalom, YHWH-rapha, and YHWH-jireh.

    (The LORD our righteous banner, the LORD our peace, the LORD our healer, the LORD our provider).

    When Jesus came into the world, He was given the name Jesus (YHWH our salvation).

    Jesus Christ has always been our salvation, even before the incarnation.

    Thus Jesus Christ is come in the flesh; because before the incarnation He was the Father, and the Father's name is Jesus Christ as He is now revealed to us.

    Matthew 28:19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost:

    Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    There is one name to be baptized under, and that is the name of Jesus Christ:

    Acts 4:10,12, Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand before you whole. This is the stone that was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    For baptism does have the power to save:

    1 Peter 3:20-21, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    While baptism does not put away fleshly filth, it does wash away sins:

    Acts 22:16, And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Therefore baptism in Jesus' Name is the only way to salvation; after you know who the Lord is, of course: baptism in titles won't cut it.

    Acts 2:39, For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Therefore if you are called, you will fulfill the condition of the promise (the promise is the Holy Ghost; and the condition is to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins).

    Acts 2:38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the (conditional) promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    Finally, if you are not called, then you were never predestinated, you will not be justified, and you will not be glorified (if you are predestinated and have not been baptized, then you will be baptized with Acts 2:38 salvation at some point in the future):

    Romans 8:30, Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    I would encourage you with the following words:

    Matthew 7:7-8, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

    I would also point out the following:

    Matthew 7:13-14, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Deuteronomy 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    Jeremiah 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    As one who has been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, but who did not (physically) continue with the Oneness Pentecostals to be indoctrinated by them, I nevertheless hold to a view of the Godhead that emphasizes His Oneness (although I do not deny the plurality within the Godhead).

    I believe that, according to Isaiah 9:6-7, the son that was given shall be given the name of the everlasting Father; and that it is the zeal of the LORD of hosts that shall do this at a specific moment in history; which I believe is yet future (as I write this).

    The Father did not vacate eternity when He descended to become the Son,

    Eph 3:11, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    And thus, while the Father in flesh (Jesus Christ of Nazareth the Son of God) was on earth, He also remained behind in eternity and answered all of Jesus' prayers from that standpoint.

    Isa 57:15, For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

    This would tell us that the Father dwells outside of time. He lived one eternal "moment" and then descended to become the Son.

    Since One who dwells in eternity cannot vacate eternity (because He is not subject to time and therefore His existence in eternity cannot be spatially removed); therefore, when He descended to become the Son, the imprint of His nature remained behind in eternity; and this imprint is actually the Person of the pre-incarnate Jesus (the Father); while He also descended to take on human flesh; and that this Person in flesh, being the same Spirit and therefore the same Person, nevertheless assumed upon Himself human flesh which by necessity makes Him a different Person. Thus I speak forth the words of truth and soberness, that the Father is not the Son; but that the Son is the Father.

    The one Spirit (see Ephesians 4:4) that dwells in the Son is the same Spirit (see 1 Corinthians 12:4-6) that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15); even the Father.

    Now comes the test...of whether you are willing to look at the scriptures that back up my pov.

    Consider that John 4:23-24 tells us that the Father is a Spirit; that Ephesians 4:4 tells us that there is one Spirit; and that John 14:7-11 tells us that the Spirit that dwelt/dwelleth in Jesus Christ is the Father.

    Therefore, it is clear to me from the holy scriptures, that Jesus Christ, in His Spirit, is the Father; but that He also left behind in eternity the distinct imprint of Himself (who is the Father, even a Person who is not only an imprint but the Person of the Father).

    This is the One that Jesus prayed to. I have used terminology that is inadequate to explain my position; in all reality God the Father is not an imprint of God's nature but is God Himself. He both went forward to become the Son; and also stayed behind as the One who inhabiteth eternity. In this, the Father exists in eternity while the Son simultaneously exists on earth.

    Now when Jesus rose from the dead, He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10); while He continued to exist in a finite human body (1 John 4:1-3 (kjv), 2 John 1:7 (kjv)), which I believe is not subject to time. He ascended to exist outside of time, side-by-side with His pre-incarnate self. Thus, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1).

    The Holy Ghost, who is also that one Spirit who dwelt/dwelleth in Christ, was also released by Christ back to the Father (Luke 23:46) into eternity. He is the same Spirit as the Father, and also has the experience behind Him of living the life of Jesus; and therefore He is the perfect One to come and dwell within us and to make intercession for the saints according to the will of God. He understands humanity; for He has been human.

    Now there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). That Spirit is the Father (John 4:23-24). But that Spirit is also the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39).

    The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (John 15:26); but He is also the same Spirit as the Father (1 Corinthians 12:4-6; also consider that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) and that this Spirit is both the Father (John 4:23-24) and the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39).

    All of this is in no way saying that God puts on hats or masks and puts on a different hat or mask for any occasion.

    It is saying, however, that there is one God; even as the scripture teaches we would do well to believe (James 2:19).

    The opposing viewpoint has the problem of being Tritheistic to a certain degree; in other words, you cannot get around the fact that they are preaching three Gods rather than the same God being all three members of the Trinity.

    Why should it be surprising to you that I would make the statement that God is a Person?

    The doctrine of the Trinity preaches that He is three-in-one; and the concepts that I place before you do not contradict this understanding.

    Therefore, if you have a problem with what I am saying, go to the Lord about it. Seek Him. Ask Him if what I am saying is the case or not. And by all means, be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11).
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    GINOLJC, to all.

    I see that this is between you and Barney, (if that is what you want), so I'll stay out. but you're missing some good points of discussion.
    but I'm out of it so "Hasta la vista" brother....... :cool:

    PICJAG
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    No, by all means give your input.

    It doesn't look like he has any kind of answer, anyway.
     
  9. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    This is a very long post. A more concise summary thesis would probably be more effective, and then use the longer details for supporting information.
     
  10. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    How anyone can read John 17 and think anything other than the Father and the Son being two completely different individual personalities but one in nature, motive, purpose, character, and glory, even before the world began, is beyond me.
    And if they are one in nature, then they are both God. If Jesus is the son of God, then He is of the same nature, having the same divine "DNA" , and is thus accurately described as being the express image of the Father.
     
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  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    No one is denying the distinctness in the personalities of the Father and the Son.

    However, we do well to believe in one God (James 2:19).

    If you are referring to John 17:3, please understand that the Greek word for "and" is "kai" and can be translated "even".
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I probably should have posted post #5 first.

    For therein is my summary thesis.

    Hindsight is 20/20.

    Edit: the posts in question are intended as preaching; not as a general thesis statement.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  13. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    I'm referring to the entire chapter...I don't think the Son is talking to Himself.
     
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  14. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Hindsight in indeed 20/20. May I suggest pulling out a two sentence summary of post #5, followed by any particular points (<3) you'd particularly like to talk about?
     
  15. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Right. This is life eternal. That they might know Thee, the only true God, even??? Jesus Christ whom you did send?
    No, I don't think so.
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Post #5 actually addresses this contention.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I know so.

    Unless you believe that Jesus is the great I AM, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to simplify it for you so that you can pull it apart.

    The entire message (of posts #1-#5) stands as what you may have to deal with if you are going to deny the Trinity as I have presented it.
     
  19. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    *shrug*

    I was just giving his to help convey your thoughts better to other people. If you're not interested, that's fine. Have a nice night.
     
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how to do what you're asking without excluding some of the information that I would like to keep included.

    I feel that your motivations are less than honourable; that you are attempting to make my message less overwhelming for those who would want to pick it apart.
     
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