True Trinity.

[Jane_Doe22]

I don't know how to do what you're asking without excluding some of the information that I would like to keep included.

A) Main thesis, 2 sentences.
B) 2-3 points I would like to talk about, 1 sentence each.
C) Details about each of these points, spending a paragraph or post on each.

I feel that your motivations are less than honourable; that you are attempting to make my message less overwhelming for those who would want to pick it apart.

Quite the opposite.

 

[justbyfaith]

Maybe when I get some time, I will turn my message into a college essay form like you are asking.

But I don't see the point in doing so; since I would merely be rearranging the information into a format that is more suitable to you.

However, the format that it currently exists in is from the Holy Spirit.

So, feel free to ignore it over the fact that you don't like the way that it is presented.

It will be one less person coming against the message as I have presented it; which means that I will have less of a hassle of responding to contentions that might be leveled against the message.

 

[Grailhunter]

Salutations JBF.... Was Santa good to you this year?

Let me rephrase what Jane was getting at......
Please outline...summarize....what you are trying suggest....prove....discuss.
You did a lot work to put that all together.....in the interest of not waste all that effort, try explaining and or discussing it in your own words.
Thanks brother.

 

[amadeus]

How anyone can read John 17 and think anything other than the Father and the Son being two completely different individual personalities but one in nature, motive, purpose, character, and glory, even before the world began, is beyond me.
And if they are one in nature, then they are both God. If Jesus is the son of God, then He is of the same nature, having the same divine "DNA" , and is thus accurately described as being the express image of the Father.

The main problem I see with this is that the same chapter would also then seem to support a Multiplicity of God above and beyond a Trinity of God... that is if the prayers of Jesus will avail much as per James.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

 

[101G]

How anyone can read John 17 and think anything other than the Father and the Son being two completely different individual personalities but one in nature, motive, purpose, character, and glory, even before the world began, is beyond me.
And if they are one in nature, then they are both God. If Jesus is the son of God, then He is of the same nature, having the same divine "DNA" , and is thus accurately described as being the express image of the Father.

Glad you asked that brakelite, now, without argument, but reasoning from the scripture I will answer your question. "How anyone can read John 17 and think anything other than the Father and the Son being two completely different individual personalities but one in nature, motive, purpose, character, and glory, even before the world began, is beyond me".

here's how. scripture #1, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".
Scripture, #2. Isaiah 59:16 "And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him".

from these two verses alone we can see that "God's OWN ARM" brought salvation unto himself, correct. his "own" ARM. is not your arm you? yes. now lets see the ARM of God as God himself. supportive scripture,
Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (STOP, are we getting what the prophet is saying here? the ARM of God is he himself, God in flesh).

Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (Remember this he, this him is God's OWN ARM)

Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

now, everyone knows that this is speaking of the Lord Jesus the Christ, correct. and the Lord Jesus the Christ is God's "OWN ARM" meaning God's "POWER".
now tell me after reading this scripture if this is two distinct person. Isaiah 63:12 "That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?" question," who divided the waters of the red sea? and who made a everlasting name for himself? answer GOD. so is God arm a distinct person from himself? of course not.

one more, Psalms 98:1 "A Psalm. O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory". question, "his" right hand? "his" holy arm? are these, distinct persons? no. right hand, and arm are a anthropomorphism that singify God's POWER and his STRENGTH.

understand that the ARM of God is God himself. one need to pick up on these anthropomorphism.

so brakelite, it's not two person, with the same Nature, no, it's the same person ony a G243 allos of himself in the "similitude" as a man. so no there is no same divine "DNA", and the express Image is in "character", which means "SON". BINGO. my source for this understanding of "character" or the "characteristics" of God's person is in the term G5207 huios. this is taken from the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

PICJAG.

PS, if you want to understand this anthropomorphism of his "OWN" ARM, and his "OWN" RIGHT HAND? just understand the Greek term G243 Allos, which clearly explain God in flesh in as a "NUMERICAL" plurality of his "own" self, and not a plurality of himself in persons.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Maybe when I get some time, I will turn my message into a college essay form like you are asking.

But I don't see the point in doing so; since I would merely be rearranging the information into a format that is more suitable to you.

However, the format that it currently exists in is from the Holy Spirit.

So, feel free to ignore it over the fact that you don't like the way that it is presented.

It will be one less person coming against the message as I have presented it; which means that I will have less of a hassle of responding to contentions that might be leveled against the message.

That type of formatting makes a person points clear, and is used newspapers, informational brochures, presentations, essays, etc. Helping people understand a point then allows a person to learn or have an informed discussion (rather than arguing without understanding what the OP was about).

Just trying to be helpful.

 

[Steve Owen]

God the Father descended to become a Man and later ascended as that Man to sit upon the throne at the Father's right hand.

No siree! This is the ancient error of Patripassionism. God indeed became Man, but it was not God the Father who did so. There is a 'threeness' to God as well as a 'oneness.' There are three Persons in the Trinity and one of them became Man.

 

[justbyfaith]

You did a lot work to put that all together.....in the interest of not waste all that effort, try explaining and or discussing it in your own words.

It has already been put in my own words. I don't see why anyone can't respond to the message as it has been given.

No siree! This is the ancient error of Patripassionism. God indeed became Man, but it was not God the Father who did so. There is a 'threeness' to God as well as a 'oneness.' There are three Persons in the Trinity and one of them became Man.

Actually, Patripassianism has a biblical backing and is no heresy. Consider

Romans 4:24-25

Hebrews 9:16-21.

And I agree that there is a "threeness" as well as a "Oneness".

For obviously, Christ is come in human flesh; and the Father does not dwell in flesh (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore there is a distinction that can be made between them.

Nevertheless they are the same Spirit (John 14:7-11).

 

[101G]

It has already been put in my own words. I don't see why anyone can't respond to the message as it has been given.



Actually, Patripassianism has a biblical backing and is no heresy. Consider

Romans 4:24-25

Hebrews 9:16-21.

And I agree that there is a "threeness" as well as a "Oneness".

For obviously, Christ is come in human flesh; and the Father does not dwell in flesh (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore there is a distinction that can be made between them.

Nevertheless they are the same Spirit (John 14:7-11).

boy oh boy, what a mess. a threesome, a onesome, what! howcome? are you kidding? make up your mind. confusion, confusion, confusion. all that equal to a NOSOME...

the answer is "Diversity". "diversity", "diversity". let's get it right. use scripture, no need to guess.

The Lord Jesus said that he's the "FIRST" and the "LAST", correct.... ok, now this. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he".
HOW MAY PERSON IS THIS? notice the "WITH" in the verse, just as in John 1:1b the word was "WITH" God? but John 1:1c that the Word is God. ok is that two persons? NO. it's one PERSON "shared" in flesh.

In Isaiah 41:4 the "First" is WITH the "Last", correct. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last". again, is this two persons? NO, he said "I" am he, one person, and he said, that he is "ALSO" which means, that he is a "Diversity" of his ownself.
how hard can this be. it's right there in the bible. as with the beginning, and the end. the root and the offspring. the alpha and the omega. it's the same one person "shared" in flesh. you will run around in circle and never get the truth.

I suggest one just listen to what the bible is saying to you.

PICJAG.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

boy oh boy, what a mess. a threesome, a onesome, what! howcome? are you kidding? make up your mind. confusion, confusion, confusion. all that equal to a NOSOME...

the answer is "Diversity". "diversity", "diversity". let's get it right. use scripture, no need to guess.

The Lord Jesus said that he's the "FIRST" and the "LAST", correct.... ok, now this. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he".
HOW MAY PERSON IS THIS? notice the "WITH" in the verse, just as in John 1:1b the word was "WITH" God? but John 1:1c that the Word is God. ok is that two persons? NO. it's one PERSON "shared" in flesh.

In Isaiah 41:4 the "First" is WITH the "Last", correct. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last". again, is this two persons? NO, he said "I" am he, one person, and he said, that he is "ALSO" which means, that he is a "Diversity" of his ownself.
how hard can this be. it's right there in the bible. as with the beginning, and the end. the root and the offspring. the alpha and the omega. it's the same one person "shared" in flesh. you will run around in circle and never get the truth.

I suggest one just listen to what the bible is saying to you.

PICJAG.

How about we take this simple approach:

Father, Son, Spirit: they are three different persons-- Christ doesn't pray to Himself, He prays to the Father. Agreed?
(Yes, they are also one, God, acknowledging that).
The person God the Son was born of a virgin. The person God the Father stayed in Heaven and was not born of a virgin.

Everyone agreed?

 

[101G]

Christ doesn't pray to Himself, He prays to the Father. Agreed?

Pray to? no he pray the Father, which is his Spirit. he only pray in intersession "to" the Father. for I ask who do the Holy Spirit pray to? scripture, Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered". ok Jane, how many Spirits are there? check with John 4:24a first.

The person God the Son was born of a virgin.

ERROR, the son was never born.

The person God the Father stayed in Heaven and was not born of a virgin.

close but no cigar... understand God is the G243 allos of himself in flesh.

now let's stay on person.I just used G243 allos, which means in our English langue "ANOTHER". do the bible support this "ANOTHER" of God, as God himself? yes, lets check the record. Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones".
the LORD said, "the man that is my FELLOW". we all know that this is speaking of the Lord Jesus correct, matthews 26:13. so what do the term "FELLOW" here in scripture means. it's the Hebrew word,
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

the LORD said "his" fellow. who is a kindred man, in concrete form, see the one whom you calls Father is not in contrete form here. Jesus is the Father without flesh. and he is the son in flesh. scripture, to confirm this "FELLOW" or this KINDRED MAN.
Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star". what do the WORD "OFFSPRING" means? it's the greek word,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

there he is the "kindred" man, as in KINsman Redeemer. bingo.


so,

Everyone agreed?

no, not I. the Holy Ghost/Spirit is the only PERSON in the Godhead.

PICJAG.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Pray to? no he pray the Father, which is his Spirit. he only pray in intersession "to" the Father. for I ask who do the Holy Spirit pray to? scripture, Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered". ok Jane, how many Spirits are there? check with John 4:24a first.

ERROR, the son was never born.

close but no cigar... understand God is the G243 allos of himself in flesh.

now let's stay on person.I just used G243 allos, which means in our English langue "ANOTHER". do the bible support this "ANOTHER" of God, as God himself? yes, lets check the record. Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones".
the LORD said, "the man that is my FELLOW". we all know that this is speaking of the Lord Jesus correct, matthews 26:13. so what do the term "FELLOW" here in scripture means. it's the Hebrew word,
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

the LORD said "his" fellow. who is a kindred man, in concrete form, see the one whom you calls Father is not in contrete form here. Jesus is the Father without flesh. and he is the son in flesh. scripture, to confirm this "FELLOW" or this KINDRED MAN.
Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star". what do the WORD "OFFSPRING" means? it's the greek word,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

there he is the "kindred" man, as in KINsman Redeemer. bingo.


so,

no, not I. the Holy Ghost/Spirit is the only PERSON in the Godhead.

PICJAG.

101G, I'm trying to understand your view here better. Do you believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person, taking on different roles?

Thank you for taking the time to briefly answer my question.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Person God the Father both stayed behind in heaven and also descended down to become a Man. See post #5 (True Trinity.).

 

[justbyfaith]

ERROR, the son was never born.

The incarnation of the Son is basic doctrine.

 

[101G]

101G, I'm trying to understand your view here better. Do you believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one person, taking on different roles?

Thank you for taking the time to briefly answer my question.

ok, let's get serious. the answer to your question is NO. and God don't play roles either.
Listen carefully. God is a plurality of himself in NUMBER, and not in PERSON. let me give you the scripture.
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". the form of God is here his NATURE, but what kind of NATURE is it that the Lord Jesus has? answer. a "EQUALLY" shared nature that he came in, flesh. for the the term "Form", it's ROOT give us the answer to God's plurality of himself in NUMBER, not person. the ROOT of "Form"/G3444 μορφή morphe is G3313 follow the definition. G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

ok, so what is G3313?,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).
so what is a "portion", it's another word for "Share". so our Lord Jesus nature is a "shared" nature, the thing you said, the Father was in heaven. understand the Father is in heaven all the time. but shared on earth at the same time. supportice scripture,
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". at the "SAME" time he was on earth in flesh, Talking to Nicodemus, he was in heaven at the same time. see it now. Jesus is God the Father shared in flesh. not a separate person, but a "shared person in another nature. it just that simple.

also understand this. God appeared in many forms or similitudes, scripture, Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets".

see that's why I get trinitarians on the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 reconcile . as well as Genesis 1:26 reconcile to Genesis 1:27. these scriptures really blow the trinity out of the water. as well as in the water at our Lord's Baptism, "diversity" just kills the three person there also.

so Jane first I thank you for asking. and second it's getting late where I'm at, so we can take this up tommorrow. but study these two terms

1. G243 allos. used the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

2. G1085 γένος genos. use the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

but search both words out, look at each and every word in those definitions. and get the complete understanding of each word, and it willclear up the person in the Godhead.

again in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanks for asking.

PICJAG.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

ok, let's get serious. the answer to your question is NO. and God don't play roles either.
Listen carefully. God is a plurality of himself in NUMBER, and not in PERSON. let me give you the scripture.
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". the form of God is here his NATURE, but what kind of NATURE is it that the Lord Jesus has? answer. a "EQUALLY" shared nature that he came in, flesh. for the the term "Form", it's ROOT give us the answer to God's plurality of himself in NUMBER, not person. the ROOT of "Form"/G3444 μορφή morphe is G3313 follow the definition. G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

ok, so what is G3313?,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).
so what is a "portion", it's another word for "Share". so our Lord Jesus nature is a "shared" nature, the thing you said, the Father was in heaven. understand the Father is in heaven all the time. but shared on earth at the same time. supportice scripture,
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". at the "SAME" time he was on earth in flesh, Talking to Nicodemus, he was in heaven at the same time. see it now. Jesus is God the Father shared in flesh. not a separate person, but a "shared person in another nature. it just that simple.

also understand this. God appeared in many forms or similitudes, scripture, Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets".

see that's why I get trinitarians on the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 reconcile . as well as Genesis 1:26 reconcile to Genesis 1:27. these scriptures really blow the trinity out of the water. as well as in the water at our Lord's Baptism, "diversity" just kills the three person there also.

so Jane first I thank you for asking. and second it's getting late where I'm at, so we can take this up tommorrow. but study these two terms

1. G243 allos. used the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

2. G1085 γένος genos. use the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments

but search both words out, look at each and every word in those definitions. and get the complete understanding of each word, and it willclear up the person in the Godhead.

again in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanks for asking.

PICJAG.

I do enjoy coming to understand other people's points of views, even those that I disagree with. Trying to understand your POV is why I asked, not to discover Truth. Especially when I'm trapped at work super late ;P

I will admit that your answer very much confused me.

But you have a good night, thanks for chatting.

 

[101G]

The incarnation of the Son is basic doctrine.

ERROR, spirit is never born. the son of God, the flesh he came in is born, supportive scripture,
Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". see son of God is the flesh that Jesus came in. Jesus was here before Mary, before the earth, because he made the earth. see your error. no, the son of MAN came from heaven, the son of God came out of Mary. so get is straight.

as said, for person, God is one person. if this is not true, just reconcile John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24.

so good night and Lord's willing see you tommorrow.

PICJAG.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The Person God the Father both stayed behind in heaven and also descended down to become a Man. See post #5 (True Trinity.).

The incarnation of the Son is basic doctrine.

On these two points we are very much in agreement

 

[Grailhunter]

Really the only mystery is the unity. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible, but their relationship to each other is part of the storyline in the Gospels.

God defines Himself as the Father and Christ as the Son. God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Nothing about begetting Himself....Nothing about giving Himself....No sense of value or sacrifice if Christ is not His real Son.

Giving and taking...God the father gives authority to His Son...giving and taking. All judgement given to His Son.

Separate wills defined several times...My Father's will...in the garden....not My will but your will.

Only the Father knew the end of time...separate minds.

My Father in heaven. There are about 50 "My Father" scriptures in the Gospels.

The Father is greater than I.

The mother of James and John asked if her sons could sit on thrones on either side of Christ. Christ answered, But the places at My right side and at My left side are not Mine to give. Whoever My Father says will have those places.”

Communications between Father and Son that includes questions.

Christ describes...coming from the Father and Going to the Father.

He will sit on the right hand of the Father in heaven.

The Trinity is not about the oneness arithmetic, it is about unity and Christ discusses that unity in the following scriptures. It is not about becoming one...it is not about absorption...but it is a type of unity that we will achieve. That explanation comes from Christ Himself.

John 17:22 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.”
John 17:23 “I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that You did send Me, and do love them, even as you do love Me.”

And the words are "just as We are one" Now there is still room to speculate the construct of that unity. But as far as the one person formula, the Gospels demonstrate something very different.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, God the Father and God the Son, while they are indeed one Person, are also distinct from each other.

In His humanity Jesus is less than the Father.

But it should be clear that the Spirit who dwelt/dwelleth in Christ is the Father (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

It is this same Spirit whom Jesus released back to the Father who inhabiteth eternity; and which was poured out on the early church (the Holy Ghost).

Know that it is one Spirit who dwells within us (Ephesians 4:4).

This Spirit is the Father (Ephesians 4:6)
.
.
.
even the Holy Ghost (2 Timothy 1:14)

even Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:27, Ephesians 3:17, 1 John 5:12; 2 Corinthians 3:17, 1 Corinthians 12:3).