True Trinity.

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Grailhunter

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The one person concept of the Trinity is very popular. And what harm does it do?
But it is not the truth. In the storyline of the Gospels we see two Gods working to save humanity.
"Count Gods" "Count God names" God the Father in heaven....God the Son on earth do the work of His Father.

Spirits....aspects... projections....the multiple aspect of one God is / was a Pagan concept. The Triple Goddess.
The unity is unique enough....not one that we are going to figure out.
The Jews believed in one God. The Christian would have wanted the Jews to come on board and in the beginning promoting the one God thing was important so the Jews would accept Christianity....but it did not work. The Jews were looking for a human messiah....and still are to this day. They simply could not get their heads around a messiah that was the Son of God.

The Pagan converts had no issues with the three named Gods....which was no surprise. But by the time of Ecumenical councils there were people thinking of Christ as a demi-god....and the Gnostics that wanted to divorce the God of the Old Testament, seeing Him as either crazy or evil.

So the councils wanted to nail the point down.....their decisions ...the three Gods were equal....the three Gods were one....and at least God and Son were of the same substance and nature....and Christ was so powerful that He replaced God the Father as the creator God.

Now some of these decisions were so far out there that they had to be enforced on the people with threats of death and excommunication.....if you did not believe like they did, you would not go to heaven. Any doctrine that had to have this type of enforcement....is false.

God the Father begot God the Son that is the truth.
The name of the Holy Spirit was not divulged in the scriptures or any real details so that is what we have and the lack of details have produced hundreds of assertions. Just safe to say and truthful to say, God the Holy Spirit.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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1 Corinthians 11:19 says, For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.[/Quote\]

There are many scriptures that you quoted to prove the Trinity is scriptural. Let's take a good look at these scriptures.

Justbyfaith quoted:
Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.[/Quote\]

First of all let's get this scripture in Deuteronomy straight, the word "Lord" wasn't originally there,"YHWH" was what was originally there. YHWH has never been pronounced Jesus. The most popular pronunciation is JEHOVAH.

justbyfaith quoted:
Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.

Here in this scripture Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6:4 where he was answering a question a man had asked. Nowhere in this scripture is Jesus saying he is YHWH.

Justbyfaith quoted the scriptures:
Matthew 11:25 -at that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes.

Luke 10:21-In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.[/Quote\]

Neither in Matthew 11:25 or in Luke 10:21 is Jesus saying he is the Father who is Lord of heaven and earth but instead these scriptures show that Jesus is praying to The Father who is Lord of Heaven and earth.


Another scripture that shows Jesus praying to the Father who is Lord of heaven and earth is Matthew 26:39- "Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face and prayed, ‘My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.’” (If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father’s will.)

Another place that shows that Jesus and the Father who is Lord of heaven and earth are two separate person's is:
John 8:17, 18, RS: “[Jesus answered the Jewish Pharisees:] In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me.” (So, Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from the Father)

Justbyfaith quoted
Ephesians 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now here there is one God, and a Lord separate from Him, if the Lord isn't God (the Father). However, we have already seen that the Lord our God is one Lord (Mark 12:29) and that the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth. This one Lord is the God who created us, Jesus Christ; and I contend here faithfully that He is the Father.[/Quote\]

Yet you can't ignore the previous scriptures as well other scriptures such as John 20:17, when considering scriptures such as Ephesians 4:5 and 1corinthians 8:6.
John 20:17 states- Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” Jesus stated this after he had been resurrected. So Jesus tells us that he has a Father and he has a God, who also is our Father and God. Since Jesus has a Father who is his God, then the Lord of heaven and earth isn't Jesus, it's the Father and God of Jesus who is the Lord of heaven and earth. This means Jesus is our Lord in a specific sense. So how is Jesus our Lord?
 

Steve Owen

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Actually, Patripassianism has a biblical backing and is no heresy.
I never use the word 'heresy' on a discussion forum, but the doctrine has no Biblical backing.
The word 'Father' does not appear here. It is the Triune God who delivered up and then raised God the Son.
Not sure what you're trying to prove here. Again, there is no mention of the 'Father' (or, in fact, of the 'Son').
And I agree that there is a "threeness" as well as a "Oneness".
Good.
For obviously, Christ is come in human flesh; and the Father does not dwell in flesh (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore there is a distinction that can be made between them.

Nevertheless they are the same Spirit (John 14:7-11).
They are the same God, but they are not the same Person. The Father sends the Son; the Son does not send the Father. The Son prays to the Father; the Father does not pray to the Son. The Son gets tired and goes to sleep in a boat; the Father does not get weary; and so on.

I shall not be posting on this thread again, as I shall be leaving the board for a while at least. I have loads of stuff to do and can't afford the time. But thanks for the conversation.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Again, God the Father and God the Son, while they are indeed one Person, are also distinct from each other..
FWIW, classical Trinitarian beliefs are that the Father and Son are two different persons. Along with the Spirit being a third person. They are one God and (in classical Trinitarian) one being.
 

101G

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to all my new trinitarians to the site. if it is three person, then answer this question, it has been put to the old trinitarians, maybe you new one can give a good response.
Question, according to Revelation 1:1, "Who sent "HIS" angel to John?". but first Read Revelation 22:6 first, for the angel tells us there who exactly sent him. so was it
A. the one whom you calls the Father, or was it B. the one who you call the Son.

so to my trinitarians new to the site, who according to Revelation 1:1 and Revelation 22:6 sent his angel to John. this will put a dent in this "Person" confusion.

Looking for your answer soon.

PICJAG.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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to all my new trinitarians to the site. if it is three person, then answer this question, it has been put to the old trinitarians, maybe you new one can give a good response.
Question, according to Revelation 1:1, "Who sent "HIS" angel to John?". but first Read Revelation 22:6 first, for the angel tells us there who exactly sent him. so was it
A. the one whom you calls the Father, or was it B. the one who you call the Son.

so to my trinitarians new to the site, who according to Revelation 1:1 and Revelation 22:6 sent his angel to John. this will put a dent in this "Person" confusion.

Looking for your answer soon.

PICJAG.
FYI- I'm not a Trinitarian ;)
 

amadeus

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How about we take this simple approach:

Father, Son, Spirit: they are three different persons-- Christ doesn't pray to Himself, He prays to the Father. Agreed?
(Yes, they are also one, God, acknowledging that).
The person God the Son was born of a virgin. The person God the Father stayed in Heaven and was not born of a virgin.

Everyone agreed?
Keep on asking the question sister, but don't be surprised when everyone does Not agree!
 
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justbyfaith

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to all my new trinitarians to the site. if it is three person, then answer this question, it has been put to the old trinitarians, maybe you new one can give a good response.
Question, according to Revelation 1:1, "Who sent "HIS" angel to John?". but first Read Revelation 22:6 first, for the angel tells us there who exactly sent him. so was it
A. the one whom you calls the Father, or was it B. the one who you call the Son.

so to my trinitarians new to the site, who according to Revelation 1:1 and Revelation 22:6 sent his angel to John. this will put a dent in this "Person" confusion.

Looking for your answer soon.

PICJAG.
The answer is B. and that the One whom I call the Son is also the Father in His Spirit (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

While if the answer were A. it could not be said that the Father is the Son. Because the One who inhabits eternity is not in flesh except after He descended to dwell in flesh. And therefore the Father, as He dwells in eternity, is not the Son, as He dwells in flesh. But the Spirit of the Son is the same Spirit as He who inhabiteth eternity.
 

justbyfaith

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The word 'Father' does not appear here. It is the Triune God who delivered up and then raised God the Son.

Not sure what you're trying to prove here. Again, there is no mention of the 'Father' (or, in fact, of the 'Son').

I suggest taking a closer look at the scriptures in question...take some time to meditate on them and consider how they teach the doctrine that you are avoiding in your thinking.
 

justbyfaith

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@BARNEY BRIGHT

then the Lord of heaven and earth isn't Jesus,

So, you have failed to say that Jesus is the Lord (see 1 Corinthians 12:3, Romans 8:9)

it's the Father and God of Jesus who is the Lord of heaven and earth. This means Jesus is our Lord in a specific sense. So how is Jesus our Lord?

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); but I would also ask you the same question; and am interested in what your answer might be.

(So, Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from the Father)

He is an individual who is distinct from the Father; but not separate.

(If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father’s will.)

See post #5 for my reasoning about this contention.

Neither in Matthew 11:25 or in Luke 10:21 is Jesus saying he is the Father who is Lord of heaven and earth but instead these scriptures show that Jesus is praying to The Father who is Lord of Heaven and earth.

I would point out that the messages in question (posts #1-#5) are given in a format wherein the hermeneutical method of comparing scripture with scripture is utilized (see 1 Corinthians 2:13). So, it is important that you not take the message apart scripture by scripture but that you take all of the scriptures together as a whole.

So, Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21 do not specifically say that Jesus is the Father who is the Lord of heaven and earth. However, when you consider all of the scriptures presented together, you will find a number of things:

1) There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6)

2) The Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21)

3) No one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3); even the Spirit of truth.

Therefore, the Spirit of truth testifies to us that Jesus is the one Lord; whom we have identified as the Father of heaven and earth.
 
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justbyfaith

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FWIW, classical Trinitarian beliefs are that the Father and Son are two different persons. Along with the Spirit being a third person. They are one God and (in classical Trinitarian) one being.
My belief is more of a cross between Oneness and the Trinity.
 

101G

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The answer is B. and that the One whom I call the Son is also the Father in His Spirit (John 4:23-24, John 14:7-11).

While if the answer were A. it could not be said that the Father is the Son. Because the One who inhabits eternity is not in flesh except after He descended to dwell in flesh. And therefore the Father, as He dwells in eternity, is not the Son, as He dwells in flesh. But the Spirit of the Son is the same Spirit as He who inhabiteth eternity.
you started out on the right track but got derailed when you said, "it could not be said that the Father is the Son. Because the One who inhabits eternity is not in flesh except after He descended to dwell in flesh".
then you said this, "And therefore the Father, as He dwells in eternity, is not the Son" are you serious. he is the son, but not the son? that to me sound like what the apostle James said about... well let the apostle speak,
James 3:10 "Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

James 3:11 "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

James 3:12 "Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

well this kind of thinking, the apostle James again,
James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

James 1:7 "For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

now as for the one who dwells in ETERNITY, lets check the record.
1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen".

HOLD IT, Jesus the Christ who "ONLY" have IMMORALITY, yes the ETERNAL "FATHER" read 1 Timothy 6:16 again, and if he, JESUS, the Christ, whom many calls the Son, is the ONLY "ONE" who has "ETERNAL LIFE"/IMMORTALITY where do that leave your other two so-called distinct PERSONS? ....... well, see your ERROR?

Oh yes, the answer is B, but how is he "A" at the same time.... :p now that's is the question.

nice try, but no cigar.

so two person have been eliminated. NEXT.

PICJAG.
 

justbyfaith

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you started out on the right track but got derailed when you said, "it could not be said that the Father is the Son. Because the One who inhabits eternity is not in flesh except after He descended to dwell in flesh".
then you said this, "And therefore the Father, as He dwells in eternity, is not the Son" are you serious. he is the son, but not the son? that to me sound like what the apostle James said about... well let the apostle speak,
James 3:10 "Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

James 3:11 "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

James 3:12 "Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

well this kind of thinking, the apostle James again,
James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

James 1:7 "For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

now as for the one who dwells in ETERNITY, lets check the record.
1 Timothy 6:13 "I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen".

HOLD IT, Jesus the Christ who "ONLY" have IMMORALITY, yes the ETERNAL "FATHER" read 1 Timothy 6:16 again, and if he, JESUS, the Christ, whom many calls the Son, is the ONLY "ONE" who has "ETERNAL LIFE"/IMMORTALITY where do that leave your other two so-called distinct PERSONS? ....... well, see your ERROR?

Oh yes, the answer is B, but how is he "A" at the same time.... :p now that's is the question.

nice try, but no cigar.

so two person have been eliminated. NEXT.

PICJAG.

There is no confusion in my mind as to the reality of what I have proclaimed to you.

I expect that if you were able to get rid of a religious spirit that causes you to be a stickler for specific tenets of your faith, you might even be able to think on what I am saying and also see how what I am saying is not in contradiction to those tenets.

For you are going by the letter of what I am saying; and not the spirit.
 

101G

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True Trinity...even as is the title of this thread.
First thanks for the reply. I do really mean that. second, NO, it's just trinity, you can drop the "TRUE" because,
1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen".
that right there eliminated any trinity, "TRUE" or "False".

unless you have something that contridict this scripture.

PICJAG.
 

101G

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By the way Jane what doctrine you hold concering the Godhead? since you said that you're not a Trinitarian.

PICJAG,
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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justbyfaith quoted Isaiah 9:6,7
unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.[/Quote\]

How Jesus is our Everlasting Father: Adam the first man was the father Jehovah God provided back there in the garden of Eden. But that father brought death upon all of us his children by not staying perfect and entitled to life. He broke his Creator’s command and law. So Adam proved to be a death-giver, not a life-giver for us. He died because of his sin. All the generations of his offspring have died one after the other, and we are dying. So Adam did not become our everlasting father. The one whom our Creator provides is his own living Son, Jesus Christ, who died as a perfect man for us but who now lives as an immortal spirit in his original heavenly home. “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (1 Cor. 15:45) On earth Jesus Christ was a Jew by nationality, and the Jews were separated from the other nations by their God-given law. But Jesus fulfilled the purpose of that law. By dying as a sacrifice, not for Jews only but for all mankind, he took away the division between Jew and every other nation. He made it possible for people of all nations to become Christians and become one flock in the united worship of the one God, Jehovah.—Eph. 2:11-19.
In the coming new world Jesus will become the immortal father of all mankind to give them perfect human life on a paradise earth. By being born as a perfect human and sacrificing his human life as a High Priest he heals the breach between us and our Creator. Just as all mankind are now one flesh and family because of coming from the first man Adam, so all rescued mankind will become one in the new world because of becoming children of the Governor and Prince of Peace, the “Everlasting Father.” His own Father is God the Creator. Through Jesus, therefore, all saved mankind will have one Grand Father or Great Father, Jehovah.


Jesus is called a mighty God and he is, but he isn't ever called the Almighty God. At Isaiah 10:21Jehovah is referred to as “mighty God,” just as Jesus is in Isaiah 9:6; but only Jehovah is ever called “God Almighty.”Gen. 17:1.

If a certain title or descriptive phrase is found in more than one location in the Scriptures, it should never hastily be concluded that it must always refer to the same person. Such reasoning would lead to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar was Jesus Christ, because both were called “king of kings” (Dan. 2:37; Rev. 17:14); and that Jesus’ disciples were actually Jesus Christ, because both were called “the light of the world.” (Matt. 5:14; John 8:12) We should always consider the context and any other instances in the Bible where the same expression occurs.

How Jesus is our Lord- while on earth, Jesus Christ referred to himself as “Lord of the sabbath.” (Mt 12:8) Appropriately, he used the Sabbath for doing the work commanded by his heavenly Father. That work included healing the sick. (Compare Mt 8:16, 17.) Jesus knew that the Mosaic Law, with its Sabbath requirement, was “a shadow of the good things to come.” (Heb 10:1) In connection with those “good things to come,” there is a sabbath of which he is to be the Lord.

Jesus said got his Apostles and disciples : “You address me, ‘Teacher,’ and, ‘Lord,’ and you speak rightly, for I am such.” (Joh 13:13) As his disciples, these apostles were his learners, or pupils. Thus he was their Lord, or Master.

Especially after Jesus’ death and resurrection did his title Lord take on great significance. By means of his sacrificial death, he purchased his followers, this making him their Owner. (Joh 15:13, 14; 1Co 7:23; 2Pe 2:1; Jude 4;Re 5:9, 10) He was also their King and Bridegroom to whom they were subject as their Lord. (Ac 17:7; Eph 5:22-27; compare Joh 3:28, 29; 2Co 11:2; Re 21:9-14.) When Jehovah rewarded his Son for faithfulness to the point of dying a shameful death on a stake, he “exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Php 2:9-11) Acknowledgment of Jesus Christ as Lord means more than simply calling him “Lord.” It requires that an individual recognize Jesus’ position and follow a course of obedience. (Compare Joh 14:21.) As Jesus himself said: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Mt 7:21.

Jehovah God also granted immortality to his faithful Son. Therefore, although many men have ruled as kings or lords, only Jesus Christ, the “King of kings and Lord of lords,” has immortality.—1Ti 6:14-16; Re 19:16.

Since Jesus has the keys of death and Hades (Re 1:17, 18), he is in position to release mankind from the common grave (Joh 5:28, 29) and from the death inherited from Adam. (Ro 5:12, 18) He is therefore also the ‘Lord over the dead,’ including King David, one of his earthly ancestors.—Ac 2:34-36; Ro 14:9.