trying to interpret "love" passage

[Pearl]

I was taught many years ago that to understand 1Corinthians 13 I should replace the word 'love' for the word 'God'; because God is love. And it is showing us how to be like God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

1 Corinthians 13:1-8​

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New International Version​

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13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
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What does it mean that love does not envy and it does not boast? For example in real life I think envy means that you look up to others who have something that you do not have so love is not being like that, right? Is that what it means?
And it does not boast, wow, that seems hard, like you cannot say something you're proud of about yourself that you did, or that you have?
And always trusts, what does that mean since there are people who you can't or shouldn't trust out there???

Can anyone make these things clear to me? Thanks a lot.

And what does verse 8 mean... "But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away"? Thanks!

This passage was the verse of the day…yesterday i think. So it has been on my mind. To me it tells the difference between a slave and a Son.
John 8:34-38 - …The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.
Also “they will cease” “they will be stilled” “it will pass away” …consider though our outward man must decrease, so that He must increase.

A great passage with the above is in Timothy concerning if I have all these things …understand all knowledge, have all faith and have not (accompanying?) love (which attributes listed as “love” belong to the Fruit of the Spirit) which without the Spirit, then “i gain nothing”.
The reason 1 Timothy 6 stands out to me is because I have the question about “does God really want there to be no gain”? I love 1 Timothy because to me it explains better “great gain” accompanied by “contentment” of having nourishment and a covering. Yes, to me it connects to the Love passage and is (Imo) what Jesus Christ taught of the Father.

1 Timothy 6:3 Lexicon: If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
I must decrease, He must increase.
Be not conformed to this world but be you transformed by the renewing of your mind.


1 Timothy 6:4 Lexicon: he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

He is conceited and understands nothing although he thinks he knows everything there is to know…he does not yet know what he ought to know? Having a morbid interest …?

1 Timothy 6:5 Lexicon: and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

Who suppose godliness is a means to gain.

1 Timothy 6:6 Lexicon: But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment.
BUT actually Godliness is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment(having nourishment and a covering). Same as if I know all prophecies, know all mysteries, have all knowledge and have not love …I profit (gain) nothing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Wow!!!!! Thank you for this insight! Very helpful.
And @Randy Kluth or @CadyandZoe or anyone else, what does it mean when it says love always hopes? Thanks!

Sometimes we tend to want to give up hope when we're not getting our way. We want to stew in our anger and in our displeasure with God's will. Again, this is not love. Love believes that whatever God brings our way is allowed out of a pure motive, and with a good end in sight.

To "always trust" is not naivety. It is a general statement that we remain confident always that God is good and in charge, that He will do the right thing. It has nothing to do with trusting in untrustworthy people who have malicious designs.

Paul's statements here are to be understood in the context of God's love, and not in the context of wicked men who are not to be trusted. We cannot hope that the Wicked will do good. But we can hope that God, who is love, will eventually turn everything around for good.

These are good questions. And God's love does bring out all of the issues of our lives involving spiritual or carnal responses to the things God allows us to go through, to bless us, to correct us, or simply to test us to bring out our testimony of consistency in love to the world. It simply has to be done that way by the will of God. We have to trust that God, who is love, has good designs on behalf of all.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Actually these answers can be found on the internet if you type the meaning of the verse, lol
So love always hopes means that you never consider others to be a lost cause. edit: you never bring a final judgment to them when they fail at something.
And love always trusts means that you're not always acting suspicious of someone because it's hard to love when you're suspicious of someone but you are a person who gives others second chances even if they've failed in the past.

I want to add that the love "always trusts" also includes in what I read online implying or saying a little about not trusting someone again "blindly" but to trust someone again "tactfully" if they should be trusted again and given a second chance, and as @Randy Kluth stated, I agree that God is in the picture of the always trusting, whether you are to give second chances to other people who have failed in the past or made mistakes (what about sick murderous cases?!! @Randy Kluth question). I guess in very serious cases you would give it over to God, maybe God will let you know if someone really changed their behavior.. what do you guys say about this very discussion I bring up? Thank you!

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Sometimes we tend to want to give up hope when we're not getting our way. We want to stew in our anger and in our displeasure with God's will. Again, this is not love. Love believes that whatever God brings our way is allowed out of a pure motive, and with a good end in sight.

To "always trust" is not naivety. It is a general statement that we remain confident always that God is good and in charge, that He will do the right thing. It has nothing to do with trusting in untrustworthy people who have malicious designs.

Paul's statements here are to be understood in the context of God's love, and not in the context of wicked men who are not to be trusted. We cannot hope that the Wicked will do good. But we can hope that God, who is love, will eventually turn everything around for good.

These are good questions. And God's love does bring out all of the issues of our lives involving spiritual or carnal responses to the things God allows us to go through, to bless us, to correct us, or simply to test us to bring out our testimony of consistency in love to the world. It simply has to be done that way by the will of God. We have to trust that God, who is love, has good designs on behalf of all.

I don't think the love always trusts means that you always trust in God. I mean you do always trust in God and that he's in control and that he's in the picture but I believe what it means that love always trusts is about people who have made mistakes in the past and failed at something and that we are to always trust them again if they're a changed person like they're a new person like how God would be with us when we, too, make mistakes, but that we are to trust, not blindly but tactfully like if there's merit and validity to it, but the question is, how would you know if someone has really changed and especially if you need to know in serious cases? Do you have an answer for this question I've brought up twice in this post and in the post above this one? Thank you and anyone else.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't think the love always trusts means that you always trust in God. I mean you do always trust in God and that he's in control and that he's in the picture but I believe what it means that love always trusts is about people who have made mistakes in the past and failed at something and that we are to always trust them again if they're a changed person like they're a new person like how God would be with us when we, too, make mistakes, but that we are to trust, not blindly but tactfully like if there's merit and validity to it, but the question is, how would you know if someone has really changed and especially if you need to know in serious cases? Do you have an answer for this question I've brought up twice in this post and in the post above this one? Thank you and anyone else.

Sorry, Pearl, that's just the way I see it, that "love always trusts" means that if we love God we will always trust in *Him!* It certainly does not mean that love always trusts people, because people can be extremely deceptive.

It may be a form of loving God to trust people who may not appear to be trustworthy but do deserve an opportunity to be trusted? If so, I would agree with that.

Many years ago my wife, before I married her, converted to Christ. Somebody not very trustworthy led her to the Lord. Her own life had fallen into a measure of decadence, for various reasons. But nevertheless, the weak brother led her to the Lord, and she showed a genuine conversion. Changing her life was another matter.

It appeared that she would go back to her old life, but she angrily demanded that I "trust her." And I said, "You've never proven to me that you can change. Why should I believe you?" But she was so upset I felt compelled, by God, to give her the benefit of the doubt.

And change she did. Now, decades later she is still faithfully serving the Lord. Yes, there have been ups and downs for both of us, but we are still faithfully serving the Lord many years later. There does come a time to obey that loving voice to "trust somebody."

To answer your question, we cannot know if someone has completely changed. There is always free will. Good people can fall. And bad people can truly turn over a new leaf. We do need to trust someone if they're honestly trying. We may fall victim to someone's failure, but at least we gave them the chance.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't think the love always trusts means that you always trust in God. I mean you do always trust in God and that he's in control and that he's in the picture but I believe what it means that love always trusts is about people who have made mistakes in the past and failed at something and that we are to always trust them again if they're a changed person like they're a new person like how God would be with us when we, too, make mistakes, but that we are to trust, not blindly but tactfully like if there's merit and validity to it, but the question is, how would you know if someone has really changed and especially if you need to know in serious cases? Do you have an answer for this question I've brought up twice in this post and in the post above this one? Thank you and anyone else.

I could be wrong, but what i hear you saying is out of Trust in God and his gracious mercy towards us, we extend that likeminded trust toward others. To me, you and @Randy Kluth are saying the same thing but you go further to not stop at “Trust in God” but “Live out of that Trust”. Trust in Him who said “I raise the dead”. 2 Corinthians 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raises the dead:
To me “he raises the dead” is shown in one of my all time favorite passages: where if we know God has worked mighty within us to bring forth better things out of His treasure, then we trust He can do the same bringing forth of better things in others. So I see your point about trust of better things to come in others. One of my all time favorite passages where Paul says “although right now we appear to you as reprobates”
2 Corinthians 13:6-9 But I trust that you shall know that we are not reprobates. [7] Now I pray to God that you do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that you should do that which is honest(be you trustworthy?) , though we be as reprobates. [8] For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

Does Paul see evidence of their trustworthiness yet, I don’t think so. Far from it. “Faith is the Hope, the evidence of things not yet seen.” is it them that Paul trust in “I trust you will know we are not reprobates” and the call for them to do that which is honest and to speak not against the truth. (Not sure what that means). But to me it is the inner workings of “this also we wish, even your perfection” that Paul Trust in Christ who brings “it to pass” as Paul said “I know whom I have trusted, and He will and has delivered me out from the hand of evil.” Consider that with “I pray you do no evil”? If they do what is right instead of what is wrong and do no evil…then Who appears and delivered Paul out from evil works?


I do see your point that an extension of “Love trust all things” “bears all things” “endures all things” “Hopes all things” …is an extension “intreating” others to richness towards God. For the sake of in the same passage: Love seeks not its own things, but the true riches towards God of another.” In that same passage on trusting you will know we are not reprobates …Paul speaks of wanting them to do no wrong “not that we appear approved”, not for our own sakes …but for your edification. paul says this in another place “I have no one other “likeminded” to send to you that will naturally care for your state except Timothy(whom I have sent to you). For all men seek after their own things.” Also “as poor yet making many rich”! “We Bless and curse not”?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I could be wrong, but what i hear you saying is out of Trust in God and his gracious mercy towards us, we extend that likeminded trust toward others. To me, you and @Randy Kluth are saying the same thing but you go further to not stop at “Trust in God” but “Live out of that Trust”.

I agree. But let me give you an example of misplaced trust and rationalization. Many years ago a Christian sister came up to me and confessed she was interested in marrying a good-looking, very popular young man who was not a Christian. She confessed she knew it appeared to be wrong, but wondered if it might be okay if she thought she could witness to him and ultimately influence him to convert to Christianity.

This is a case of simply ignoring God's Word on the subject, and then presuming to know better than God. It seems like the "loving thing to do" to "trust in this young man," even though everything about him screams "atheist" and "worldly."

But "do not be mismatched with unbelievers," and "bad company corrupts good morals" are like headlghts where we should not be the deer in those headlights!

It is not "godly trust" to believe in people when God tells us *not* to trust in these kinds of mismatches. Our trust must be firmly placed in the Lord alone as our only God. We are not gods, and need God's help in every decision we make. Genuine trust begins with God Himself, who is the very definition of true love. "Love trusts all things" begins with obedience to God's Word.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Sorry, Pearl, that's just the way I see it, that "love always trusts" means that if we love God we will always trust in *Him!* It certainly does not mean that love always trusts people, because people can be extremely deceptive.

It may be a form of loving God to trust people who may not appear to be trustworthy but do deserve an opportunity to be trusted? If so, I would agree with that.

Many years ago my wife, before I married her, converted to Christ. Somebody not very trustworthy led her to the Lord. Her own life had fallen into a measure of decadence, for various reasons. But nevertheless, the weak brother led her to the Lord, and she showed a genuine conversion. Changing her life was another matter.

It appeared that she would go back to her old life, but she angrily demanded that I "trust her." And I said, "You've never proven to me that you can change. Why should I believe you?" But she was so upset I felt compelled, by God, to give her the benefit of the doubt.

And change she did. Now, decades later she is still faithfully serving the Lord. Yes, there have been ups and downs for both of us, but we are still faithfully serving the Lord many years later. There does come a time to obey that loving voice to "trust somebody."

To answer your question, we cannot know if someone has completely changed. There is always free will. Good people can fall. And bad people can truly turn over a new leaf. We do need to trust someone if they're honestly trying. We may fall victim to someone's failure, but at least we gave them the chance.

This is getting very confusing. Let me see if I could put these things altogether. I do agree with you that the foundation of the love always trusts verse is in trusting in God and you made that clear to me that I should say this, but I'm saying that "through God" there might be things that God has truly changed in us and that we would then always trust that person again who has made mistakes/failures in life in the past and see them as a new person/in a new light as God would see us when we, too, made mistakes but are now a truly changed/repentant person. I know I have made at least 2 I can think of that I would no longer do anymore and truly changed and repentant because of God and that he told me the truth and the guilt I would feel about it that it is wrong and that I used to be not really aware of things and more unloving. So there are things that would bring guilt to your conscious after knowing God and things that God brings to your awareness and tells you the truth and things that you were just experimenting for yourself that you found you don't like and that it's dangerous because of God that brought the conviction and awareness on you, things that you would never do again, so I'm not talking about things you still struggle with that you always trust someone else with love. I'm talking about things that you truly changed as a person because of God so should I only trust in Christians then and that this love always trusts doesn't apply to non-Christians since non-Christians are unstable in their ways since they don't have a solid foundation in God and the truth, or can this apply to non-Christians too??? How would this love always trusts apply when dealing with a non-Christian? Thank you for answers and opinions!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is getting very confusing. Let me see if I could put these things altogether. I do agree with you that the foundation of the love always trusts verse is in trusting in God and you made that clear to me that I should say this, but I'm saying that "through God" there might be things that God has truly changed in us and that we would then always trust that person again who has made mistakes/failures in life in the past and see them as a new person/in a new light as God would see us when we, too, made mistakes but are now a truly changed/repentant person. I know I have made at least 2 I can think of that I would no longer do anymore and truly changed and repentant because of God and that he told me the truth and the guilt I would feel about it that it is wrong and that I used to be not really aware of things and more unloving. So there are things that would bring guilt to your conscious after knowing God and things that God brings to your awareness and tells you the truth and things that you were just experimenting for yourself that you found you don't like and that it's dangerous because of God that brought the conviction and awareness on you, things that you would never do again, so I'm not talking about things you still struggle with that you always trust someone else with love. I'm talking about things that you truly changed as a person because of God so should I only trust in Christians then and that this love always trusts doesn't apply to non-Christians since non-Christians are unstable in their ways since they don't have a solid foundation in God and the truth, or can this apply to non-Christians too??? How would this love always trusts apply when dealing with a non-Christian? Thank you for answers and opinions!

I think of the passage where Jesus said we must be consistent with God our Father, who never changes. His love rains down sunshine on the just and the unjust--He does not discriminate between believers and unbelievers. He is good and does not engage in payback judgments.

On the other hand, God is not naive, and does impose penalties on those who willfully rebel against HIs justice and love. God will only put up with so much for so long.

So how far do you think God will go in "trusting unbelievers"--even if they destroy the innocent and abuse others? God allows evil for only so long before He brings consequences.

So God always begins with "trust"--always begins with "trust" but ultimately seeks justice. He cannot trust that which is obviously designed to be untrustworthy in His sight.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

and things that you were just experimenting for yourself that you found you don't like and that it's dangerous

I hope that this statement wasn't taken too far, it wasn't serious but could've been dangerous.

@Randy Kluth, I feel you did not answer my question clearly. I talked about people who after knowing God become a truly changed and repentant person, and if the love always trusts then only applies to Christians and not non-Christians as only Christians can be a truly changed and repentant person, while a non-Christian is unstable in their ways since they don't have a solid foundation in God and the truth. So I guess this doesn't apply to non-Christians except that the most we could do is pray for them to become Christians and then always trust them (trust them again in "love" if they then become a truly changed and repentant person then/afterwards?) Discussing these love verses, including the hope one is very good for me and all of us who don't really understand these scriptures because everyone, including you, need this kind of love, like the love always trusts, that you would trust someone again and see them as a new person/in a new light if they're a truly changed and repentant person because of God bringing awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to you. Also, you would have to ask a Christian if they're truly changed and a repentant person of their sin or if it's a sin that they're still struggling with in which you would not trust in that since that is not wise trusting. Thank you.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I agree. But let me give you an example of misplaced trust and rationalization. Many years ago a Christian sister came up to me and confessed she was interested in marrying a good-looking, very popular young man who was not a Christian. She confessed she knew it appeared to be wrong, but wondered if it might be okay if she thought she could witness to him and ultimately influence him to convert to Christianity.

This is a case of simply ignoring God's Word on the subject, and then presuming to know better than God. It seems like the "loving thing to do" to "trust in this young man," even though everything about him screams "atheist" and "worldly."

But "do not be mismatched with unbelievers," and "bad company corrupts good morals" are like headlghts where we should not be the deer in those headlights!

It is not "godly trust" to believe in people when God tells us *not* to trust in these kinds of mismatches. Our trust must be firmly placed in the Lord alone as our only God. We are not gods, and need God's help in every decision we make. Genuine trust begins with God Himself, who is the very definition of true love. "Love trusts all things" begins with obedience to God's Word.

I have so many questions that I wonder about with this topic. First, when the religious became angry asking why Jesus Christ ate with sinners? Or when He chose Judas knowing Judas would betray Him. I think of the kiss…

Second concerning God makes it to rain on the just and unjust alike. The conclusion there is to be perfect as your Father is perfect and to not only love those who love you. (Even unbelievers love those who love them?) To go one step further. To not only salute those who salute you. Also, how He loved us even when we were dead in our sins and trespasses and gave His Life for us. He didn’t give His Life for us only after we were made Alive. but we were made Alive in Him because He became poor, so that we who were yet dead in our sins, could be made rich.

You brought up to not be equally yoked with sinners. And how bad company corrupts good manners. That could mean to not get drowned in debates and quarrels over words without profit. What is an “unbeliever”? Even the demons believe and tremble? I’m not sure what an “unbeliever” is, because Paul sat with one for whom Christ died where Paul said this brother has not the knowledge of God (yet) …but how he (Paul) had been instructed of Christ not to harm this one without knowledge because then Paul would become the transgressor who sinned against Christ. In using the knowledge granted him against one who is weak and without knowledge that there is One God. So then he becomes the one who sins against brother.

Don’t be unequally yoked with “unbelievers” could mean (Imo) don’t act or behave like “unbelievers”. Bad company corrupts good manners. I think of “and whatever they set before you…that you eat …asking no questions for conscience sake.”

I could be wrong but maybe the Pharisees also seeing Him eating with sinners …possibly would have pointed out “do not be equally yoked with sinners” and how it corrupts good manners. Although …if we are speaking of the best manners of All men: He said He is THE physician sent to those who need one. Also curious about “He was numbered with them”
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment."

 

[Randy Kluth]

I have so many questions that I wonder about with this topic. First, when the religious became angry asking why Jesus Christ ate with sinners? Or when He chose Judas knowing Judas would betray Him. I think of the kiss…

Second concerning God makes it to rain on the just and unjust alike. The conclusion there is to be perfect as your Father is perfect and to not only love those who love you. (Even unbelievers love those who love them?) To go one step further. To not only salute those who salute you. Also, how He loved us even when we were dead in our sins and trespasses and gave His Life for us. He didn’t give His Life for us only after we were made Alive. but we were made Alive in Him because He became poor, so that we who were yet dead in our sins, could be made rich.

You brought up to not be equally yoked with sinners. And how bad company corrupts good manners. That could mean to not get drowned in debates and quarrels over words without profit. What is an “unbeliever”? Even the demons believe and tremble? I’m not sure what an “unbeliever” is, because Paul sat with one for whom Christ died where Paul said this brother has not the knowledge of God (yet) …but how he (Paul) had been instructed of Christ not to harm this one without knowledge because then Paul would become the transgressor who sinned against Christ. In using the knowledge granted him against one who is weak and without knowledge that there is One God. So then he becomes the one who sins against brother.

Don’t be unequally yoked with “unbelievers” could mean (Imo) don’t act or behave like “unbelievers”. Bad company corrupts good manners. I think of “and whatever they set before you…that you eat …asking no questions for conscience sake.”

I could be wrong but maybe the Pharisees also seeing Him eating with sinners …possibly would have pointed out “do not be equally yoked with sinners” and how it corrupts good manners. Although …if we are speaking of the best manners of All men: He said He is THE physician sent to those who need one. Also curious about “He was numbered with them”
Luke 22:37 For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment."

An important element in Jesus' dealing with his countrymen, the Jews, is the fact all were sworn to uphold God's Covenant. They were all committed to following God's standard of faith in His laws.

So all marriages, by default, were to be based on unity in faith, while understanding that in the history of Israel many simply did not live up to that faith. They were to be "cut off," and nobody should become allied with degenerate Israelis, whether in business or in marriage. Good kings of Judah were not even to join forces with corrupt kings of Israel when they engaged in questionable military or business policies.

Reaching out to the lost is a matter of sharing with them, and not joining forces with them, or making alliances with them. It is not "marrying into" their pagan ways.

This is the big difference. Reaching out to people in sin who nevertheless remained open to the message of the Gospel is reaching out to someone who on the inside was lost and in a sense "crying out for help." It is not forcing a message upon someone who is resistant to the message and in fact rejecting outright the validity of the message calling for repentance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I hope that this statement wasn't taken too far, it wasn't serious but could've been dangerous.

@Randy Kluth, I feel you did not answer my question clearly. I talked about people who after knowing God become a truly changed and repentant person, and if the love always trusts then only applies to Christians and not non-Christians as only Christians can be a truly changed and repentant person, while a non-Christian is unstable in their ways since they don't have a solid foundation in God and the truth.

What kind of "love" validates unrighteousness? Reaching out to the unrighteous is not validating their unrighteousness, but rather, calling for their repentance, so as to save their soul!

So I guess this doesn't apply to non-Christians except that the most we could do is pray for them to become Christians and then always trust them (trust them again in "love" if they then become a truly changed and repentant person then/afterwards?)

On the contrary, genuine trust can be placed even in an unrighteous person who shows a sincere desire to do well. But it is naive to trust in a person who even does well if there is no commitment to doing *only good.* If a person expresses his or her wish to do both good and evil, it is naive to trust in such a person to be consistent. I wouldn't do business with them, or appear to sanction them as "good people." You'd be placing your stamp of approval on people who may lead others astray.

Discussing these love verses, including the hope one is very good for me and all of us who don't really understand these scriptures because everyone, including you, need this kind of love, like the love always trusts, that you would trust someone again and see them as a new person/in a new light if they're a truly changed and repentant person because of God bringing awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to you. Also, you would have to ask a Christian if they're truly changed and a repentant person of their sin or if it's a sin that they're still struggling with in which you would not trust in that since that is not wise trusting. Thank you.

I don't think being "loving" to someone is a matter of searching for "perfection" in anybody. It is a matter of our witness, as well as a matter of reaching out to them to bring them to repentance. If while we're reaching out to them we appear to validate them in their sin, we'd be hurting other people who are looking to what we sanction.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

An important element in Jesus' dealing with his countrymen, the Jews, is the fact all were sworn to uphold God's Covenant. They were all committed to following God's standard of faith in His laws.

So all marriages, by default, were to be based on unity in faith, while understanding that in the history of Israel many simply did not live up to that faith. They were to be "cut off," and nobody should become allied with degenerate Israelis, whether in business or in marriage. Good kings of Judah were not even to join forces with corrupt kings of Israel when they engaged in questionable military or business policies.

Reaching out to the lost is a matter of sharing with them, and not joining forces with them, or making alliances with them. It is not "marrying into" their pagan ways.

This is the big difference. Reaching out to people in sin who nevertheless remained open to the message of the Gospel is reaching out to someone who on the inside was lost and in a sense "crying out for help." It is not forcing a message upon someone who is resistant to the message and in fact rejecting outright the validity of the message calling for repentance.

I get it’s not about forcing someone against their will. “anyone forced against their will is of the same opinion still”.
People can fake it or put on a pretense, but whatever the mind wants, the body follows.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

What kind of "love" validates unrighteousness? Reaching out to the unrighteous is not validating their unrighteousness, but rather, calling for their repentance, so as to save their soul!

On the contrary, genuine trust can be placed even in an unrighteous person who shows a sincere desire to do well. But it is naive to trust in a person who even does well if there is no commitment to doing *only good.* If a person expresses his or her wish to do both good and evil, it is naive to trust in such a person to be consistent. I wouldn't do business with them, or appear to sanction them as "good people." You'd be placing your stamp of approval on people who may lead others astray.

I don't think being "loving" to someone is a matter of searching for "perfection" in anybody. It is a matter of our witness, as well as a matter of reaching out to them to bring them to repentance. If while we're reaching out to them we appear to validate them in their sin, we'd be hurting other people who are looking to what we sanction.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying but I appreciate your reply. I'm talking about some things that a person is a truly changed/repentant person which God has brought awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to someone who is a Christian/believer so it's through God that they're a truly changed and repentant person so you would trust them again in love, that kind of love, in those sins in which they've changed and are a truly changed and repentant person in those sins, for those sins, and you would then see them as a new person in regards to that/in a new light. Let me put it this way, don't you have sins in which you're a truly changed and repentant person of those sins because of God bringing awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to you? Don't you want someone to always trust you again with those sins and now see you as a new person/in a new light for those sins? So my question was also that this cannot apply to non-Christians except that we can only pray for them to become Christians and when they do convert to one then we can always trust them again for sins in which they've become a truly changed and repentant person because of God. Thank you for your patience and listening to this and answering the question, and open to anyone else too.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying but I appreciate your reply. I'm talking about some things that a person is a truly changed/repentant person which God has brought awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to someone who is a Christian/believer so it's through God that they're a truly changed and repentant person so you would trust them again in love, that kind of love, in those sins in which they've changed and are a truly changed and repentant person in those sins, for those sins, and you would then see them as a new person in regards to that/in a new light. Let me put it this way, don't you have sins in which you're a truly changed and repentant person of those sins because of God bringing awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to you? Don't you want someone to always trust you again with those sins and now see you as a new person/in a new light for those sins? So my question was also that this cannot apply to non-Christians except that we can only pray for them to become Christians and when they do convert to one then we can always trust them again for sins in which they've become a truly changed and repentant person because of God. Thank you for your patience and listening to this and answering the question, and open to anyone else too.

In one sense, yes, a Christian in repenting has become strong in understanding the sin and so in resisting the sin. I've heard that a broken bone sometimes over-calcifies and the bone becomes stronger than it was before.

But a non-Christian doesn't really understand the weakness caused by the sinful nature, and even though the intention may be to "turn over a new leaf," there remains weakness with respect to sin. There can't be a full trust in such a person because there is always a susceptibility to rebellion.

However, even non-Christians can break bad habits and become trustworthy in the areas where they overcome. The danger is in thinking that breaking a bad habit alters the sin nature. It doesn't. A person dominated by sin is always dangerous to himself/herself and to others. They can only be trusted in a limited way.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying but I appreciate your reply. I'm talking about some things that a person is a truly changed/repentant person which God has brought awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to someone who is a Christian/believer so it's through God that they're a truly changed and repentant person so you would trust them again in love, that kind of love, in those sins in which they've changed and are a truly changed and repentant person in those sins, for those sins, and you would then see them as a new person in regards to that/in a new light. Let me put it this way, don't you have sins in which you're a truly changed and repentant person of those sins because of God bringing awareness, conviction (guilt), judgement and the truth to you? Don't you want someone to always trust you again with those sins and now see you as a new person/in a new light for those sins? So my question was also that this cannot apply to non-Christians except that we can only pray for them to become Christians and when they do convert to one then we can always trust them again for sins in which they've become a truly changed and repentant person because of God. Thank you for your patience and listening to this and answering the question, and open to anyone else too.

If I understand you correctly…
Maybe this will help.
I’ve heard someone say before concerning another “that person is impossible. There is no hope for them. Even God can’t work with that.”
What I think I hear you saying is …you don’t think anything or anyone is impossible with God.

The reason I (Imo) think nothing is impossible is because I’m aware God has shown mercy, grace, and forgiveness to me who is and was “impossible”. Whenever my husband use to bring God up years ago…I would grind my teeth and be embarrassed. Embarrassed because it sounded like nonsense. I did not want anyone talking about God and I definitely didn’t want to be talking about Him. I had no interest at all. Although I had gone to church and said the prayer and called myself a believer…I still had no interest or desire towards God. So…point is…how can I walk around saying I decide what is “impossible” with God. I still think you are near on: Love hopes all things, endures all things…

You do have me thinking about things we’ve done in the past and how long before others aware of those things…will ever consider us “trustworthy”. I think of Paul and all he had did, even voicing “they know what I’ve done persecuting the same Faith, I now preach”. I’m wondering if it was the things Paul did that made others consider him not trustworthy…or those things were welcomed where he (Saul)ran with the best of them …or if it was that Paul sang a different song from that which Saul sang? Sometimes I think being “trustworthy” to men would be to stay more dirty so they can at least say “he runs with us.” For example …if Jesus had come preaching the same as they were…would they have welcomed Him.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In one sense, yes, a Christian in repenting has become strong in understanding the sin and so in resisting the sin. I've heard that a broken bone sometimes over-calcifies and the bone becomes stronger than it was before.

But a non-Christian doesn't really understand the weakness caused by the sinful nature, and even though the intention may be to "turn over a new leaf," there remains weakness with respect to sin. There can't be a full trust in such a person because there is always a susceptibility to rebellion.

However, even non-Christians can break bad habits and become trustworthy in the areas where they overcome. The danger is in thinking that breaking a bad habit alters the sin nature. It doesn't. A person dominated by sin is always dangerous to himself/herself and to others. They can only be trusted in a limited way.

I do understand that in reality it is scary to trust too quickly what anyone says. Most of the time I struggle to even trust myself.

To me 1 Thessalonians - tells in great detail about a love that Hopes all things. I’m Summarizing what it means to me. I’m not purposely leaving out anything but instead highlighting parts that stand out.

1 Thessalonians begins with: We give thanks to God always for you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers.
Remembering you before God and Father of your Faith.
brothers loved by God…we know He has chosen you Because our gospel comes to you not only in word, but also in Power and in the Holy Spirit with full conviction.

1. 1 Corinthians 4:19-21 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. [20] For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. [21] What will you? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

What men we proved to be among you, for YOUR sakes! (Love seeks not after its own, but that of another.)

Our coming to you was not without profit. (Not as those who preach themselves Hoping to make selfish gain of you.) 1 Thessalonians 2 we never come to you with flattering words as you know, nor with pretense of greed, nor did we seek glory from you or others. (<sums up the love passage). We were among you as gentle, as nursing mothers who care for their children. We did not come to you without the companionship of Love. Not did we come to you without godliness with contentment which is great Gain.

When we could not bear any longer … (love endures all things) we were willing to be left behind.

Here is something significant to me because it sounds exactly like Christ telling the Disciples what was going to happen in His going to the cross. To me it’s a prophecy given to them that they see comes to pass. 1 Thessalonians 3:4 for when we were yet with you for this cause, that is now happening, we kept telling you beforehand that we were to suffer affliction …

Just as you know for this reason when we could no longer endure —we sent to you Timothy to learn about your Faith for we feared the tempter had tempted you and we fear it was all in vain —profitable in nothing—we fear it was in word only without the power of the Holy Spirit —-as men supposing to make selfish gain of you! we HOPE and Trusted and Prayed to receive word that there was great gain in the power of the Kingdom and of the Holy Spirit. We HOPE that is not so!!! That you being tempted have been tempted away from the “Good News”

The Gospel preached to you was not in word only, but in The power of the Holy Spirit …IS indeed with Great Gain. For Timothy delivered unto us wonderful, comforting News, refreshing News, strengthening Good News —that you have not been shaken by that which we told and warned you would come beforehand —but that you stand fast. May God our Father Himself, and Our Lord and Savior increase you and that you may abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you.

Question: If they in sending Timothy to see to the state of Their brothers, caring about their state …did not Hope all things and were skeptical of a surety that “we expect to receive word back of the worst” “our brothers fail” then ….what I hear is then it falls back on What News Timothy is delivering back to “Those who planted”. news of what they planted…whether it’s been made profitable and increased by God. Or if it was sown in vain and unapproved of God. or was the seed planted God increased and abounded in the kingdom, in power of the Holy Spirit, being not in word only but with Power. It seemed to be a reflection on those who planted (more so) of God gives the increase. Where He chooses what is to be abased and what is to be be increased. To God the judge to how each seed is dressed and God who gives it, its own body. If they received back word that it was without power and was in word only…isn’t that what Paul was warning them of when He told them I’ll come and see you who are puffed up …whether you speak in word only, or in the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Kingdom of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do understand that in reality it is scary to trust too quickly what anyone says. Most of the time I struggle to even trust myself.

You sound like a wise person!

To me 1 Thessalonians - tells in great detail about a love that Hopes all things. I’m Summarizing what it means to me. I’m not purposely leaving out anything but instead highlighting parts that stand out.

1 Thessalonians begins with: We give thanks to God always for you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers.
Remembering you before God and Father of your Faith.
brothers loved by God…we know He has chosen you Because our gospel comes to you not only in word, but also in Power and in the Holy Spirit with full conviction.

1. 1 Corinthians 4:19-21 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. [20] For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. [21] What will you? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

What men we proved to be among you, for YOUR sakes! (Love seeks not after its own, but that of another.)

Our coming to you was not without profit. (Not as those who preach themselves Hoping to make selfish gain of you.) 1 Thessalonians 2 we never come to you with flattering words as you know, nor with pretense of greed, nor did we seek glory from you or others. (<sums up the love passage). We were among you as gentle, as nursing mothers who care for their children. We did not come to you without the companionship of Love. Not did we come to you without godliness with contentment which is great Gain.

When we could not bear any longer … (love endures all things) we were willing to be left behind.

Here is something significant to me because it sounds exactly like Christ telling the Disciples what was going to happen in His going to the cross. To me it’s a prophecy given to them that they see comes to pass. 1 Thessalonians 3:4 for when we were yet with you for this cause, that is now happening, we kept telling you beforehand that we were to suffer affliction …

Just as you know for this reason when we could no longer endure —we sent to you Timothy to learn about your Faith for we feared the tempter had tempted you and we fear it was all in vain —profitable in nothing—we fear it was in word only without the power of the Holy Spirit —-as men supposing to make selfish gain of you! we HOPE and Trusted and Prayed to receive word that there was great gain in the power of the Kingdom and of the Holy Spirit. We HOPE that is not so!!! That you being tempted have been tempted away from the “Good News”

The Gospel preached to you was not in word only, but in The power of the Holy Spirit …IS indeed with Great Gain. For Timothy delivered unto us wonderful, comforting News, refreshing News, strengthening Good News —that you have not been shaken by that which we told and warned you would come beforehand —but that you stand fast. May God our Father Himself, and Our Lord and Savior increase you and that you may abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you.

Question: If they in sending Timothy to see to the state of Their brothers, caring about their state …did not Hope all things and were skeptical of a surety that “we expect to receive word back of the worst” “our brothers fail” then ….what I hear is then it falls back on What News Timothy is delivering back to “Those who planted”. news of what they planted…whether it’s been made profitable and increased by God. Or if it was sown in vain and unapproved of God. or was the seed planted God increased and abounded in the kingdom, in power of the Holy Spirit, being not in word only but with Power. It seemed to be a reflection on those who planted (more so) of God gives the increase. Where He chooses what is to be abased and what is to be be increased. To God the judge to how each seed is dressed and God who gives it, its own body. If they received back word that it was without power and was in word only…isn’t that what Paul was warning them of when He told them I’ll come and see you who are puffed up …whether you speak in word only, or in the Power of the Holy Spirit and the Kingdom of God.

I think it is simpler than this. Christians in general are to not just be "nominal Christians," but to be active in the Spirit, living out the genuine Christian life. Paul had started churches or passed through churches, and he wanted to follow up to ensure that good leadership and good practice persisted.

The church was founded on good words, on good preaching, on solid ministry. But no matter how good a church is established there is the constant danger of temptation, of human pride, of capitulation to tolerating sin in our midst. Paul wanted to ensure carnality was not taking over, since it is a constant threat with us all.