trying to interpret "love" passage

[VictoryinJesus]

In one sense, yes, a Christian in repenting has become strong in understanding the sin and so in resisting the sin. I've heard that a broken bone sometimes over-calcifies and the bone becomes stronger than it was before.

But a non-Christian doesn't really understand the weakness caused by the sinful nature, and even though the intention may be to "turn over a new leaf," there remains weakness with respect to sin. There can't be a full trust in such a person because there is always a susceptibility to rebellion.

However, even non-Christians can break bad habits and become trustworthy in the areas where they overcome. The danger is in thinking that breaking a bad habit alters the sin nature. It doesn't. A person dominated by sin is always dangerous to himself/herself and to others. They can only be trusted in a limited way.

To me it was a little more than checking to see if good leaders were put in place. But instead receiving back the word of Good News that what was planted, what was watered …God has given the increase. And the work (them)has remained though (they) be tried by Fire. Paul spoke of “we have been among you as nursing mothers that care for their children.” “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.”

1 Corinthians 3:1-16 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able. [3] For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? [4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal? [5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? [6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. [7] So then neither is he that plants any thing, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase. [8] Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. [9] For we are labourers together with God: you are God's husbandry, you are God's building. [10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [16] Know you not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

To me I’ve heard the fire that will try every man’s work of what sort it is …for it shall be revealed by fire —-is a trial way off in the distance. But that makes no sense to me when 1 Peter 4:12 warns “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:”

Paul warned them (as Jesus Christ First warned them) it was coming and how they were set to suffer affliction. To me he sent Timothy to see What sort of work was laid and was made full of joy to receive the good news that they remained…how does this fit with the passage on Love? I think it is the last part of “what remains”
Though tested and tried by Fire.
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Is it “Love”? Or is it “Charity”? it is difficult to understand what is “charity” or “Love” because giving all your goods to feed the poor sounds like charity or Love. I mean “giving all”. As does “Giving your body to be burned” sounds like charity or Love. But “profits nothing” to me means when tried by Fire those “works” lack something which remains and endures though it be tested by Fire.
I’ve never considered that before “though I give my body to be burned” by Fire. Considering the fiery trial that tests what sort of work it is…now I think it’s not random that “though I give my body to be burned” and yet have not Love, I profit nothing.
Personally, I think Paul suffered the loss of all things by the Fire, and all the loss he counted as dung to partake in the Resurrection of Christ. Paul (inspired by “not in word only, but in the power of the Holy Spirit who raises up the dead) warned “if Christ has not been raised from the dead then your Hope, your Faith, even giving your body to be burned …it is all without profit.
Maybe that makes no sense. Mainly it’s me working out what is “tried by Fire to manifest what sort of work it is?”

I’ve always wondered why which sounds so opposite of the love passage …their torment with fire in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:10-13 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: [11] And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name. [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from here forth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Oh wow it begins with they have no rest night or day to “come to Me all you heavy laden and burdened with sin, and I will give you rest”! “My burden is light. For I am lowly and of a humble Spirit.” “Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” How many times did Paul pray let the work follow, “you are our work”’be you imitators, follow my example as I also have followed the example of Christ: “wake up you who sleep, and Christ will give you Light” …point is in the presence of the Holy angels and in the Presence of the Lamb …what is He (the Lambs presence) hoping for, long suffering for, having patience for, enduring for, “the Lamb”? I don’t think He is cheering for destruction but “I come not to destroy men, but to save them” …don’t you see? Spiteful angry men who love watching as others are thrown into a lions den and “the sport” of seeing if man can defeat beast. They will cheer for the beast! I fear how men take His word like “in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” …and vilify what their hope is for in that “arena” . I’ve heard it “we will watch from the balcony with the Lamb” not knowing the attributes of the Lamb …”bring forth the Lion! Let it be in the presence of a Lion!” “A lowly and humble Lamb will only lay down”

Completely forgetting the “in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” “that they may be saved” the Fire is spoken of as
1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, [7] so that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
^to me that is why the Holy angels and the Lamb is present, that is why “in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb”
Again, maybe that sounds like …nothing. But I’m working it out that things I’ve been told is hateful, without Hope…is not always what we imagine. Again, I’ve heard “we will watch from the balcony with the Lamb of God” as He smashes the enemies…to me speaks of what is Love: Hopes all things, Love bears all things, Love believes all things, Love endures all things? “In the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb of God” “For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [20] For you are our glory and joy.” 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20

 

[amadeus]

To me it was a little more than checking to see if good leaders were put in place. But instead receiving back the word of Good News that what was planted, what was watered …God has given the increase. And the work (them)has remained though (they) be tried by Fire. Paul spoke of “we have been among you as nursing mothers that care for their children.” “Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.”

1 Corinthians 3:1-16 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. [2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able. [3] For you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? [4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal? [5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? [6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. [7] So then neither is he that plants any thing, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase. [8] Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. [9] For we are labourers together with God: you are God's husbandry, you are God's building. [10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he builds thereupon. [11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [16] Know you not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

To me I’ve heard the fire that will try every man’s work of what sort it is …for it shall be revealed by fire —-is a trial way off in the distance. But that makes no sense to me when 1 Peter 4:12 warns “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:”

Paul warned them (as Jesus Christ First warned them) it was coming and how they were set to suffer affliction. To me he sent Timothy to see What sort of work was laid and was made full of joy to receive the good news that they remained…how does this fit with the passage on Love? I think it is the last part of “what remains”
Though tested and tried by Fire.
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Is it “Love”? Or is it “Charity”? it is difficult to understand what is “charity” or “Love” because giving all your goods to feed the poor sounds like charity or Love. I mean “giving all”. As does “Giving your body to be burned” sounds like charity or Love. But “profits nothing” to me means when tried by Fire those “works” lack something which remains and endures though it be tested by Fire.
I’ve never considered that before “though I give my body to be burned” by Fire. Considering the fiery trial that tests what sort of work it is…now I think it’s not random that “though I give my body to be burned” and yet have not Love, I profit nothing.
Personally, I think Paul suffered the loss of all things by the Fire, and all the loss he counted as dung to partake in the Resurrection of Christ. Paul (inspired by “not in word only, but in the power of the Holy Spirit who raises up the dead) warned “if Christ has not been raised from the dead then your Hope, your Faith, even giving your body to be burned …it is all without profit.
Maybe that makes no sense. Mainly it’s me working out what is “tried by Fire to manifest what sort of work it is?”

I’ve always wondered why which sounds so opposite of the love passage …their torment with fire in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:10-13 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: [11] And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name. [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. [13] And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from here forth: Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Oh wow it begins with they have no rest night or day to “come to Me all you heavy laden and burdened with sin, and I will give you rest”! “My burden is light. For I am lowly and of a humble Spirit.” “Yea, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” How many times did Paul pray let the work follow, “you are our work”’be you imitators, follow my example as I also have followed the example of Christ: “wake up you who sleep, and Christ will give you Light” …point is in the presence of the Holy angels and in the Presence of the Lamb …what is He (the Lambs presence) hoping for, long suffering for, having patience for, enduring for, “the Lamb”? I don’t think He is cheering for destruction but “I come not to destroy men, but to save them” …don’t you see? Spiteful angry men who love watching as others are thrown into a lions den and “the sport” of seeing if man can defeat beast. They will cheer for the beast! I fear how men take His word like “in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” …and vilify what their hope is for in that “arena” . I’ve heard it “we will watch from the balcony with the Lamb” not knowing the attributes of the Lamb …”bring forth the Lion! Let it be in the presence of a Lion!” “A lowly and humble Lamb will only lay down”

Completely forgetting the “in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” “that they may be saved” the Fire is spoken of as
1 Peter 1:6-7 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, [7] so that the tested genuineness of your faith-more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire-may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
^to me that is why the Holy angels and the Lamb is present, that is why “in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb”
Again, maybe that sounds like …nothing. But I’m working it out that things I’ve been told is hateful, without Hope…is not always what we imagine. Again, I’ve heard “we will watch from the balcony with the Lamb of God” as He smashes the enemies…to me speaks of what is Love: Hopes all things, Love bears all things, Love believes all things, Love endures all things? “In the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb of God” “For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? [20] For you are our glory and joy.” 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20

Wow, for me you go on making it all more complicated than it needs to be. Jesus is to be our foundation. If he is, then what we build on that foundation will be tried by fire. The wood, hay and stubble will burn up while the gold, silver and precious stones will be cleaned up but left intact:

1co 3:11	For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1co 3:12	Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1co 3:13	Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1co 3:14	If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1co 3:15	If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The "he himself shall be saved" only holds true so long as Jesus remains our foundation... regardless of all else.

1co 13:4	Love [Charity] suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1co 13:5	does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
1co 13:6	does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
1co 13:7	bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

So then if our foundation is Jesus in spite of our poor choice of building materials are we not saved and, is Jesus then not the Love/Charity of I Cor 13?

1jo 4:8

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And is not Jesus one with His Father?

Joh 10:30

I and my Father are one.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Wow, for me you go on making it all more complicated than it needs to be. Jesus is to be our foundation. If he is, then what we build on that foundation will be tried by fire. The wood, hay and stubble will burn up while the gold, silver and precious stones will be cleaned up but left intact:

1co 3:11	For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1co 3:12	Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1co 3:13	Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1co 3:14	If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1co 3:15	If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The "he himself shall be saved" only holds true so long as Jesus remains our foundation... regardless of all else.

1co 13:4	Love [Charity] suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1co 13:5	does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
1co 13:6	does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
1co 13:7	bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

So then if our foundation is Jesus in spite of our poor choice of building materials are we not saved and, is Jesus then not the Love/Charity of I Cor 13?

1jo 4:8

He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

And is not Jesus one with His Father?

Joh 10:30

I and my Father are one.

I do value your opinion and I get that I make it complicated. But “the Bible” also has for a long time been presented to me as complicated. So I don’t think I’m alone in making it complicated. I mean look at all the many threads of various perspectives on one single topic. All saying “it’s simple!” Yet all saying different things. I agree with you it could be simplified. Here is what I don’t understand. if the above is so simple then why is it disputed what the fiery trial is? Or when …what manner of work it is will be revealed by fire. Amadeus, I’ve been told so many things my entire life concerning the bible, that I do agree with you that I over complicate. Another example is going to church for a dinner and everyone for bible study give their ideas on what fruits the trees in the kingdom will bear…debating over if the fruit will be oranges or apples or pomegranate. you are correct it could be as simple as …we are plainly told what Fruit is given of the Holy Spirit. But we do make it complicated. Please, bear with me then in chasing my own tail. It matters to me to decide what “in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” means to me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do value your opinion and I get that I make it complicated. But “the Bible” also has for a long time been presented to me as complicated. So I don’t think I’m alone in making it complicated. I mean look at all the many threads of various perspectives on one single topic. All saying “it’s simple!” Yet all saying different things. I agree with you it could be simplified. Here is what I don’t understand. if the above is so simple then why is it disputed what the fiery trial is? Or when …what manner of work it is will be revealed by fire. Amadeus, I’ve been told so many things my entire life concerning the bible, that I do agree with you that I over complicate. Another example is going to church for a dinner and everyone for bible study give their ideas on what fruits the trees in the kingdom will bear…debating over if the fruit will be oranges or apples or pomegranate. you are correct it could be as simple as …we are plainly told what Fruit is given of the Holy Spirit. But we do make it complicated. Please, bear with me then in chasing my own tail. It matters to me to decide what “in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” means to me.

You can't avoid "mixing it up a little" with believers who themselves are conflicted. We all get conflicted at times during times of trial, when things aren't going so well. We at those times feel a pull towards the "flesh," to stew in our own discontent, wanting to lash out and blame someone else.

These kinds of trials, from personal disgruntlement to outright persecution by pagans is the "fire." This world is a fire to those who hold forth "truth."

That truth will be tested again and again by those who don't want there to be truth. They don't want there to be truth that convicts them that what they're doing is wrong, that doing their own thing is wrong in a world created by the Lord.

We need to submit and remain humble, to soften our anger or just keep quiet. There will be another day when things aren't so bad.

But if you're going to serve the cause of truth, be prepared for resistance and at times conflict. Then try to extract yourself from going down a rabbit hole or from getting burned by the fire. Extract yourself and walk away, finding someone who is interested in the truth and in peace.

 

[amadeus]

I do value your opinion and I get that I make it complicated. But “the Bible” also has for a long time been presented to me as complicated.

No, you are not alone in finding it complicated. Despite having read it for so many years, some [or many?] things still are not clear to me. I am sure that most people also, as a result, get wrong ideas from it. But... we do not give up... We keep on asking, seeking and knocking.

So I don’t think I’m alone in making it complicated. I mean look at all the many threads of various perspectives on one single topic. All saying “it’s simple!” Yet all saying different things.

What you say is true for sure. Sometimes instead of heading toward an understanding too many of these threads and posts are repetitive... and not edifying for anyone. There are different views and different things to really be seen. Too often, I believe, they are not seen because the point is to win rather than to understand each other. Who is blind and who can see? Do all of us still see as through a glass darkly about so many things?

I agree with you it could be simplified. Here is what I don’t understand. if the above is so simple then why is it disputed what the fiery trial is?

Why are there so many denominations based often on even the same Bible versions? Why there so many Bible versions about which people also cannot agree?

As to the fiery trial, I have been pretty much set on what I believe for a long time, but I am still listening for something new from God and perhaps through some man. As with other things it still does happen once in a while, but I believe it will be necessary for us to keep pressing and surrendering... until we run out of time.

In that I see the correct answer!

In man's eyes we may not end up at precisely the same place, but what is important is where we end up... in God's eyes.

Or when …what manner of work it is will be revealed by fire. Amadeus, I’ve been told so many things my entire life concerning the bible, that I do agree with you that I over complicate.

The revelation should be God's revelation. Perhaps none of us has it just right, but as I have said, God is the one who really sees clearly. Who else does? Each of us may believe we are "right" for that goes as Solomon was inspired to write 1,000 years before Jesus was born to Mary:

Pr 21:2

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

Another example is going to church for a dinner and everyone for bible study give their ideas on what fruits the trees in the kingdom will bear…debating over if the fruit will be oranges or apples or pomegranate. you are correct it could be as simple as …we are plainly told what Fruit is given of the Holy Spirit. But we do make it complicated. Please, bear with me then in chasing my own tail. It matters to me to decide what “in the presence of the Holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” means to me.

The tables may be full, but not everyone partakes of exactly the same fruits at the same time. Should they in the natural? Should they in the spiritual? Some people seem to think so.

On the "in the presence" I would suggest not thinking too deeply trying to dissect it in your mind. Rather, close your eyes and try to empty yourself. Ask God to help you empty yourself of everything but Him. For me that works, but it certainly may not be the only way nor ithe only place where we may find our way into the presence of the Holy angels or of the Lamb.

What you see now on some Bible points [doctrines?] may be indeed as right as it will ever be for you in this natural life, but don't let that cause you to stumble. If you walk with Him and toward Him as best you able and strive to surrender to Him continuously, will He not give you all that you need now including a better vision of anything that is still in shadows?

Read Matthew chapters 5 and 6 slowly and prayerfully... Let God give any needed understanding as you read rather than referring to what any man, including me, may have to say. It often works well for me. Hopefully, it will for you as well.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

In one sense, yes, a Christian in repenting has become strong in understanding the sin and so in resisting the sin. I've heard that a broken bone sometimes over-calcifies and the bone becomes stronger than it was before.

But a non-Christian doesn't really understand the weakness caused by the sinful nature, and even though the intention may be to "turn over a new leaf," there remains weakness with respect to sin. There can't be a full trust in such a person because there is always a susceptibility to rebellion.

However, even non-Christians can break bad habits and become trustworthy in the areas where they overcome. The danger is in thinking that breaking a bad habit alters the sin nature. It doesn't. A person dominated by sin is always dangerous to himself/herself and to others. They can only be trusted in a limited way.

Yes so you agree with me then? I believe that there are sins we've had in the past, and we're always changing and being transformed too, that those sins, as Christians, really we can always trust again because of God, trusting in God always that he brings sin to our awareness and he brings the truth and he brings conviction (guilt) and judgement and that's why in Him bringing all these things, it stops our sin as we are made fully aware that our sin is unacceptable to God when he calls on us to truly repent on them at His timing and that's how we can be trusted again, always trusting someone again that they're a truly changed and repentant person because of God and He can even change our desire to commit that sin to be undesirable. However, a non-Christian can change a bad habit but because they're unstable in their ways and don't have a solid foundation in God and His righteousness or even guidance through the Holy Spirit, they can change back to how they were and you can not always trust a non-Christian but only those people who through a relationship and knowing God, a Christian we can always trust someone again.

@VictoryinJesus, in the always hopes that would be right in what you wrote. I had written on what the always hopes means. I read online that it means you never consider someone a lost cause (or like what you wrote, "impossible"); you never bring a final judgement to someone when they failed/sinned at something.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes so you agree with me then?

I don't know--you sound like you know what you're talking about. I was just trying to interpret what Paul was saying. I'm sure there are various applications.

I tend to begin my theology with the Law, where God speaks in black and white, and explains precisely that holiness is conformity to His word. Everything develops out of that, including Grace.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't know--you sound like you know what you're talking about. I was just trying to interpret what Paul was saying. I'm sure there are various applications.

I tend to begin my theology with the Law, where God speaks in black and white, and explains precisely that holiness is conformity to His word. Everything develops out of that, including Grace.

Curious what “the law is spiritual” means to you? I’m asking because you said you start there. As I’m asking you, I also am considering what that means to me “we know the law is spiritual, but I am carnal sold under sin.”

I think of Jesus Christ saying “It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

To me “the flesh profits nothing” is still on topic with the Love passage where “if I have not Love, I am nothing.”

Galatians 3:21-24 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

People say I make it complicated…but in reading the above I think of the storybooks I read as a child …I wish someone would have told me they are parables to bring the children of God to Christ. Instead I was always given children’s books with a picture of a wolf and a lamb on the cover, and left asking “how can the wolf dwell with the Lamb?” Things like that…trying to interpret “Love” passage. It’s weird how words have different meanings. I don’t know why but now as I look at the word “passage”…. It also means a voyage like “have a safe passage” “trying to interpret the Love passage” where Christ said “The words I speak unto you, they are spiritual, they are Life.” See …is it overthinking it to now consider the word “passage” how I have always referred to this passage in the word or that passage in the word. But what if “passage” referring to the Word of God has movement? Isn’t “the words I speak to you, they are spiritual, they are Life” to move you from “ be not conformed unto this world, but be you transformed by the renewing of the mind” is it a shame, an embarrassment this morning that I never expected to consider the word “passage” this morning, but that it’s been a good refreshing study for this morning? Now when people ask “what passage is that from in the Bible” I don’t think I’ll see it as chapters and verses …

 

[Randy Kluth]

Curious what “the law is spiritual” means to you? I’m asking because you said you start there. As I’m asking you, I also am considering what that means to me “we know the law is spiritual, but I am carnal sold under sin.”

Rom 7.13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

The Law was spiritual because it was the word of God directing Israel to do the right thing, to live in the image of God. But it also confirmed the reality of Adam's sin, that once the line of disobedience had been crossed, no amount of adherence to God's word could undo the carnal tendency in Man to consider the alternative to obeying God. There was an inner impulse brought out by the command that revealed our rebellion. The suggestion to do right became a compulsion to consider disobedience.

So the Law, as much as it had our best interests at heart, actually served to amplify the reality that we would be discredited every time the Law was obeyed. The very thing that brought pleasure to God through Israel's obedience also confirmed their death sentence under that same Law!

That doesn't mean it was not a good thing to obey God. And the same thing holds today. It is *always* good to obey God, even if it reveals sin and rebellion in us.

By grace we can persevere in obedience today because Christ has covered the guilt of our sin. We don't throw out obedience. We apply the band aid of Grace to it so that our obedience is not nullified--it brings pleasure to God and can no longer lead to our ultimate failure.

The revelation of sin in our obedience can no longer legally disqualify us for death. We may die, but resurrection will follow. And what we do for God today continues to retain its merit, even if we sill die.

Galatians 3:21-24 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. [23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Please bear in mind that in negating the Law of Moses Paul was not negating the principle of obedience and righteousness. He was not dismissing our need to rally to the cause of God's word!

What Paul is stating is that the system--not the process, has changed. The covenant has changed--not the need to obey God's word!

And so, we leave behind any notion that Grace has yet to be achieved, that obedience will ultimately fail with our deaths. Grace has already come through Christ, and now we can obey God with Grace firmly holding us up, with God's love having our backs.

And so we begin with God's Law by maintaining the need to obey God's word. But we add to that the fact Christ has brought Grace in the New Covenant, allowing us to bypass all of the need to prepare for a Grace that has already come. We are not under the Law, but now under the Grace of Christ and his spiritual life. His love has overcome the need to illustrate continuous efforts at self-justification. Once we choose to live in him, we yield up any notion we can get there on our own.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Rom 7.13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

The Law was spiritual because it was the word of God directing Israel to do the right thing, to live in the image of God. But it also confirmed the reality of Adam's sin, that once the line of disobedience had been crossed, no amount of adherence to God's word could undo the carnal tendency in Man to consider the alternative to obeying God. There was an inner impulse brought out by the command that revealed our rebellion. The suggestion to do right became a compulsion to consider disobedience.

So the Law, as much as it had our best interests at heart, actually served to amplify the reality that we would be discredited every time the Law was obeyed. The very thing that brought pleasure to God through Israel's obedience also confirmed their death sentence under that same Law!

That doesn't mean it was not a good thing to obey God. And the same thing holds today. It is *always* good to obey God, even if it reveals sin and rebellion in us.

By grace we can persevere in obedience today because Christ has covered the guilt of our sin. We don't throw out obedience. We apply the band aid of Grace to it so that our obedience is not nullified--it brings pleasure to God and can no longer lead to our ultimate failure.

The revelation of sin in our obedience can no longer legally disqualify us for death. We may die, but resurrection will follow. And what we do for God today continues to retain its merit, even if we sill die.

Please bear in mind that in negating the Law of Moses Paul was not negating the principle of obedience and righteousness. He was not dismissing our need to rally to the cause of God's word!

What Paul is stating is that the system--not the process, has changed. The covenant has changed--not the need to obey God's word!

And so, we leave behind any notion that Grace has yet to be achieved, that obedience will ultimately fail with our deaths. Grace has already come through Christ, and now we can obey God with Grace firmly holding us up, with God's love having our backs.

And so we begin with God's Law by maintaining the need to obey God's word. But we add to that the fact Christ has brought Grace in the New Covenant, allowing us to bypass all of the need to prepare for a Grace that has already come. We are not under the Law, but now under the Grace of Christ and his spiritual life. His love has overcome the need to illustrate continuous efforts at self-justification. Once we choose to live in him, we yield up any notion we can get there on our own.

Sounds right but who am I to say. I don’t disagree but I’m also confused in, yes, “do not steal” taught me way before I ever even was interested in God, that it’s wrong to go in the store and stuff my pockets with what I didn’t pay for. But to me that lesson has a greater purpose in teaching me that it is also considered stealing or thievery: to tear someone down and to criticize them at every turn to make myself look better. There is term called “to level another person” in bringing them low or beneath to build yourself up. Also thievery or stealing could be stealing the words of God (very detrimental) from another person receiving any form of edification; like in the parable of when the seed is sown he (the thief)comes and steals away what was planted so no seed reaches maturity. While we preach on not stealing…this thievery between brothers happens every day on this board. In the cut down and gloating and lack of edification of others for building of self up. I’m guilty of it too. But when the word says that the Law is Spiritual to me “do not steal” should lead to doing away with stealing from brothers. Knowing the nature and gravity of hindering growth in another. If I’m being honest most times if I experience any edification, any Hope, any renewal, any joy at all …this board will be the first to try to steal it away. Why is that? Do we see as much gravity in stealing away any edification, any growth, any maturity of another as we see in “do not enter your neighbors house and rob from your neighbor”? Or are they the same?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sounds right but who am I to say. I don’t disagree but I’m also confused in, yes, “do not steal” taught me way before I ever even was interested in God, that it’s wrong to go in the store and stuff my pockets with what I didn’t pay for. But to me that lesson has a greater purpose in teaching me that it is also considered stealing or thievery: to tear someone down and to criticize them at every turn to make myself look better. There is term called “to level another person” in bringing them low or beneath to build yourself up. Also thievery or stealing could be stealing the words of God (very detrimental) from another person receiving any form of edification; like in the parable of when the seed is sown he (the thief)comes and steals away what was planted so no seed reaches maturity. While we preach on not stealing…this thievery between brothers happens every day on this board. In the cut down and gloating and lack of edification of others for building of self up. I’m guilty of it too. But when the word says that the Law is Spiritual to me “do not steal” should lead to doing away with stealing from brothers. Knowing the nature and gravity of hindering growth in another. If I’m being honest most times if I experience any edification, any Hope, any renewal, any joy at all …this board will be the first to try to steal it away. Why is that? Do we see as much gravity in stealing away any edification, any growth, any maturity of another as we see in “do not enter your neighbors house and rob from your neighbor”? Or are they the same?

This is a different subject, even if related. Yes, there are many forms of "theft." And yes, you will see evidence of the sin of "theft" anywhere you go, whether pagan or Christian. We are all tainted by sin--even the most godly saint.

So our job is not to ignore all of this sin, nor to turn away from it, but rather, to confront it head on. We do that by ministering grace in our witness. When it doesn't produce fruit we find another plot of land to invest our seeds in. We don't keep kicking a dead horse. If we find poison water, we don't keep drinking from it.

If this or other forums are destructive to you, you should go elsewhere, where you feel more accommodated and useful. But everywhere you go there is going to be limited opportunity to be a witness. Even if we're imperfect we can still obey God and produce a picture that will help others. Even if they're undeserving, we may help steer them in the right way.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I get that its everywhere you go. Like I’ve admitted I do the same thing myself. To get away fully from being torn down …I would have to get away from myself. But just because it is everywhere, that doesn’t seem to be an excuse because of His reminder, “it ought not be so among you.”

Heartily agree. Big difference between small flaws with an occasional attitude and regular abuse accompanied by a critical, judgmental spirit.

2 Corinthians 9:10 Now he that ministers seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness);

That is what I’ve been trying to suggest. since God ministers the seed to the sower, and God multiplies the seed sown, and God gives the Increase. …where there in no Fruit maybe the Love passage helps. Consider ‘From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? [2] You lust, and have not: you kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: you fight and war, yet you have not, because you ask not. [3] You ask, and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may consume it upon your lusts.’ James 4:1-3

Sounds like you're examining why we may lack fruitful living? Jesus did tell the church at Ephesus he would take away their lampstand if they continued in loveless works. I suppose you're right?

I’m not meaning that towards you. What I’m wondering is how does it become another person as the cause of no Fruit? Instead of what we sow? In considering why there is no profit in the Love passage of that which is without Love… Love Hopes all things, believes all things, endures all things, bears all things. There is even a passage on enduring hard ground. What is “that you endure hardness” if not “that you endure hardness of heart” as a good soldier of Christ?

Sowing seed among those of hard hearts certainly will cut down on our fruitfulness. But if God puts you in a position where you have to testify among those resistant to the truth, you will remain fruitful before God, though unfruitful in terms of winning the rebels to Salvation.

Being obedient doesn't always mean we will be fruitful in evangelism. How "fruitful" was the Prophet Jeremiah when he prophesied the end of Jerusalem?

I’ve thought about it. But when I first came here I felt like I was supposed to stay and not bounce around. I wanted to get to know people and not leave when it becomes tough. Lol I remember the first member I encountered here was “Stranger”. I don’t see him on here anymore. But in the beginning people use to make me cry. My feelings would get so hurt. But I stayed and have learned a lot from others here. It reminds me of a writing group I joined. We would meet in person. They were all educated and i struggled with simple grammar. They would also say things hard to hear concerning my writing. I swore I would never go back to participate in their group, but I did. I learned a lot from them. So I guess I’m wrong. This board has helped me more than I realize, because what hurts the most to hear is just as needful sometimes.

I tend to ride out some troubles to see through to the end of a project. If I am not thrown off my horse, I will ride into the sunset, as I seem to be doing on these forums. I've been doing it for at least 20 years.

Sometimes discussions and debates, whether with Christians or non-Christians, appear to be a waste of time. You have to wonder who, really, is on the other end? But wherever there is another human being interested in truth, as I am, I feel confident that just sharing truth can be a worthwhile occupation.

I personally feel the need to share what I know, as it relates to some of the subjects I'm interested in. Surely there are others who may benefit from what I know?

I use my brother with his knowledge in the biblical languages. This gives me a shortcut so I don't have to do all of the work. Similarly, I try to give shortcuts to fellow believers so they can jump ahead faster and build on that. Then they can more confidently feel out where their particular interests lie. Thanks for being here.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

I don't know--you sound like you know what you're talking about. I was just trying to interpret what Paul was saying. I'm sure there are various applications.

I tend to begin my theology with the Law, where God speaks in black and white, and explains precisely that holiness is conformity to His word. Everything develops out of that, including Grace.

I thought you were also trying to interpret the "always trusts"?
Anyway, I think I got it now but you can add things if you'd like. Thanks

 

[Randy Kluth]

I thought you were also trying to interpret the "always trusts"?
Anyway, I think I got it now but you can add things if you'd like. Thanks

Yes, I was dealing with "always trusts," but you asked me what I meant by my beginning with the Law. We begin with obedience, recognizing that to be like God is to love like Him, trust like Him, and carry all of the virtues such as hope like Him.

Does God always hope and trust? Yes, I think so, because He's always in charge. Things will turn out exactly as He has planned. Those who love Him can have confidence in that and hope the same way He does.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Being obedient doesn't always mean we will be fruitful in evangelism. How "fruitful" was the Prophet Jeremiah when he prophesied the end of Jerusalem?

That is a great question. I don’t know. Your question does make me think of
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

And Hebrews 4:7-8 Again, he limiteth (sets aside?) a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

^i don’t know why I have always thought that was all the men of old because the way to God had not yet been revealed. Now I’m wondering if it included Jeremiah who prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem as being “not mixed with faith”. It is a good question.

To me there is a difference between Elijah and Jesus. Because of when the disciples asked if they should call down fire and destroy them as Elijah did. Which Jesus Christ rebuked them and said the Son come not to destroy men but to save them.

And there is a difference I think in Noah and Jesus because there is a difference in the Ark Noah built which saved only eight souls, and the Ark of God Jesus Christ.

And there seems to be also a difference in Moses and Jesus Christ because of “which is Greater? He who is the house or Him who builds the House?

Concerning Jeremiah who prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem, and Elijah and Noah and Moses… I think of the passage of there is time and season for everything under the sun…a time to sow, and a time to reap what is sown. A time to rend. And a time to sew together what has been torn. A time to scatter, and a time to bring together that which was scattered. A time to Kill, and a Time to Heal. I do think of the Disciples wanting to call down Fire and destroy and how Jesus rebuked them. To me He seems to Disciple them in the way of Love hopes all things…and not in the way of destruction. There seems to be a difference between a slave and a Son. As different as a time to kill, and a Time to Heal.

Still on topic of the Love Passage…in instruction of the difference between a slave of (sin unto to death ) and a Son of(obedience unto Life).

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is a great question. I don’t know. Your question does make me think of
Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Yes, of course--not everybody responds to God's Word. And yet God wants us to declare the Gospel to the whole world. The important thing to recognize is, we have to be receptive to the Holy Spirit and to our audience. If the audience turns out to reject our message, we have to be willing to move on.

We're not to throw our pearls before the swine. We have to be willing to love the unlovable. But if the unlovable don't want love, we shouldn't force it upon them.

And Hebrews 4:7-8 Again, he limiteth (sets aside?) a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [8] For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

^i don’t know why I have always thought that was all the men of old because the way to God had not yet been revealed. Now I’m wondering if it included Jeremiah who prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem as being “not mixed with faith”. It is a good question.

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Christ's Salvation was not completed until Christ actually went to the cross. But God's Word has *always* been able to speak to men.

To me there is a difference between Elijah and Jesus. Because of when the disciples asked if they should call down fire and destroy them as Elijah did. Which Jesus Christ rebuked them and said the Son come not to destroy men but to save them.

The "Sons of Thunder" were rebuked not because it is wrong for a prophet to call fire down on the wicked. They were rebuked because they were not being led at that time to do it, as opposed to Elijah who was being led. You have to know your circumstances and you have to be able to hear God in your mind and spirit.

And there is a difference I think in Noah and Jesus because there is a difference in the Ark Noah built which saved only eight souls, and the Ark of God Jesus Christ.

And there seems to be also a difference in Moses and Jesus Christ because of “which is Greater? He who is the house or Him who builds the House?

Yes, there is definitely a difference between Christ and ordinary men. Christ is divine, and the saints, OT and NT, are ordinary men.

I'm not saying that the call of God renders us less than special. I'm saying that even though we may be anointed by God's Spirit, that does not mean we are other than ordinary men. We must always be connected to Christ.

A time to rend. And a time to sew together what has been torn. A time to scatter, and a time to bring together that which was scattered. A time to Kill, and a Time to Heal.

Yes, exactly! It's not a matter of what testament we are in, or who we are. Rather, it is about hearing God in our circumstances properly.

We cannot define love out of context. In one context love may be judgment against the wicked to protect the innocent. In another context love may reach out to the wicked who are unlovable. We have feel God as you confront each situation.

I think you have a good handle on it, and seem to know your Bible well. I can sense that you're able to arrive at answers to your own questions.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, of course--not everybody responds to God's Word. And yet God wants us to declare the Gospel to the whole world. The important thing to recognize is, we have to be receptive to the Holy Spirit and to our audience. If the audience turns out to reject our message, we have to be willing to move on.

We're not to throw our pearls before the swine. We have to be willing to love the unlovable. But if the unlovable don't want love, we shouldn't force it upon them.

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Christ's Salvation was not completed until Christ actually went to the cross. But God's Word has *always* been able to speak to men.

The "Sons of Thunder" were rebuked not because it is wrong for a prophet to call fire down on the wicked. They were rebuked because they were not being led at that time to do it, as opposed to Elijah who was being led. You have to know your circumstances and you have to be able to hear God in your mind and spirit.

Yes, there is definitely a difference between Christ and ordinary men. Christ is divine, and the saints, OT and NT, are ordinary men.

I'm not saying that the call of God renders us less than special. I'm saying that even though we may be anointed by God's Spirit, that does not mean we are other than ordinary men. We must always be connected to Christ.

Yes, exactly! It's not a matter of what testament we are in, or who we are. Rather, it is about hearing God in our circumstances properly.

We cannot define love out of context. In one context love may be judgment against the wicked to protect the innocent. In another context love may reach out to the wicked who are unlovable. We have feel God as you confront each situation.

I think you have a good handle on it, and seem to know your Bible well. I can sense that you're able to arrive at answers to your own questions.

Thank you for encouragement. You have no idea how much this means to me ‘I think you have a good handle on it, and seem to know your Bible well. I can sense that you're able to arrive at answers to your own questions.’

I think it’s been close to eight years now when I was first diagnosed MS. It’s close to the time I first came to this board. Not only did I have numbness on my left side from my breast to my toes….I couldn’t remember how to drive to places I had been driving to like my mothers home or my mother-in-laws home. Something happened in my brain which were the symptoms that caused the doctors to order an MRI of my brain. Long story short…there were lesions. As a writer who had newly found her passion for writing…I was depressed and angry. “Seriously? My brain?” how could I write, how could I work or function with an impaired memory? My counselor would repeat to me “perfect love cast out fear”. I told her that was hard to remember and I would never be able to memorize passages of the Bible. How it was too late for that. So that is why your response means so much. Somehow without even trying to memorize passages…they have gotten in. Even when I couldn’t do much in the way of studying …reading His word seemed like the only thing I could do that didn’t wear me out. Instead it helped rejuvenate my mind. So to me it’s a miracle since I wholeheartedly believed I could not retain not even one single verse “perfect love cast out fear” …to eight years later, to be here. I never could have imagined. Your comment reminds me of this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thank you for encouragement. You have no idea how much this means to me ‘I think you have a good handle on it, and seem to know your Bible well. I can sense that you're able to arrive at answers to your own questions.’

I think it’s been close to eight years now when I was first diagnosed MS. It’s close to the time I first came to this board. Not only did I have numbness on my left side from my breast to my toes….I couldn’t remember how to drive to places I had been driving to like my mothers home or my mother-in-laws home. Something happened in my brain which were the symptoms that caused the doctors to order an MRI of my brain. Long story short…there were lesions. As a writer who had newly found her passion for writing…I was depressed and angry. “Seriously? My brain?” how could I write, how could I work or function with an impaired memory? My counselor would repeat to me “perfect love cast out fear”. I told her that was hard to remember and I would never be able to memorize passages of the Bible. How it was too late for that. So that is why your response means so much. Somehow without even trying to memorize passages…they have gotten in. Even when I couldn’t do much in the way of studying …reading His word seemed like the only thing I could do that didn’t wear me out. Instead it helped rejuvenate my mind. So to me it’s a miracle since I wholeheartedly believed I could not retain not even one single verse “perfect love cast out fear” …to eight years later, to be here. I never could have imagined. Your comment reminds me of this.

One day we may come to realize the great level of compassion God really has for us. He sticks with His plan no matter what. It's hard for us to understand. But His fingerprints will be all over it when we keeping following Him.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Thank you for encouragement. You have no idea how much this means to me ‘I think you have a good handle on it, and seem to know your Bible well. I can sense that you're able to arrive at answers to your own questions.’

I think it’s been close to eight years now when I was first diagnosed MS. It’s close to the time I first came to this board. Not only did I have numbness on my left side from my breast to my toes….I couldn’t remember how to drive to places I had been driving to like my mothers home or my mother-in-laws home. Something happened in my brain which were the symptoms that caused the doctors to order an MRI of my brain. Long story short…there were lesions. As a writer who had newly found her passion for writing…I was depressed and angry. “Seriously? My brain?” how could I write, how could I work or function with an impaired memory? My counselor would repeat to me “perfect love cast out fear”. I told her that was hard to remember and I would never be able to memorize passages of the Bible. How it was too late for that. So that is why your response means so much. Somehow without even trying to memorize passages…they have gotten in. Even when I couldn’t do much in the way of studying …reading His word seemed like the only thing I could do that didn’t wear me out. Instead it helped rejuvenate my mind. So to me it’s a miracle since I wholeheartedly believed I could not retain not even one single verse “perfect love cast out fear” …to eight years later, to be here. I never could have imagined. Your comment reminds me of this.

Hi VictoyinJesus,
Sorry to hear you're having MS.
I wonder, did you just have it for no apparent reason or did you have stress?
If you had stress as the root cause for you getting MS, you might want to check out B vitamins. I think it talks about how it helps with myelin sheath, but I am not a doctor though I am into naturopathy and nutrition. I am, however, not saying that you shouldn't take any conventional medication but you can try to see a naturopath, additionally. God bless. Love, tl_p.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi VictoyinJesus,
Sorry to hear you're having MS.
I wonder, did you just have it for no apparent reason or did you have stress?
If you had stress as the root cause for you getting MS, you might want to check out B vitamins. I think it talks about how it helps with myelin sheath, but I am not a doctor though I am into naturopathy and nutrition. I am, however, not saying that you shouldn't take any conventional medication but you can try to see a naturopath, additionally. God bless. Love, tl_p.

Thank you for your concern. I do think vitamin B is something I need to take. Along with Vitamin D3. I don’t know why my MS revealed itself late in life. I was in my forties before I found out and do think it was stress related. I hear some people say they had symptoms for a long time but mine came on rather quickly. My endurance dropped off and I was having fatigue. I thought at first it was my age. but then I started having other symptoms shortly after noticing getting out of breath easily.