TULIP an open discussion

[setst777]

No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.

Did God merely foresee what Satan would do, or did God create Satan to do what he does?

Did God foresee what Satan would do, or did God cause all the choices Satan made?

While, given your theological perspective, one can understand the story that way. The text of Job does not rule out my theological perspective.

I am going to believe what God actually revealed to us for us to understand. This is more than a story, but is an historical event that occurred.

My point earlier is self-evident and doesn't rely on Calvinism. If a man allows another man to do wrong, that man is just as culpable for the evil as the second man. Look at the account of Job again.

Do you believe God allows another man to do wrong? If so, does God foresee what man will do, or did God create mankind to think and act as God had planned for each person?

However, if you believe God allows a man, or demons, to do wrong, is God just as culpable as any man, and even Satan, for the sins they commit?

Perhaps this is true of Calvinism I don't know. I don't think Calvin believed in "fore-causation" as you describe it. The concept of "fore-causation" places God on our level of existence. I don't know if Calvin believed that God was just another creature like us or not. I would give him the benefit of the doubt though.

The Calvinists interpret, "foreknow" as used in Scripture, to mean that God "fore-causes" in contrast to God acting on what God foresees what will happen.

For instance, did God foresee that Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus, or that God created Judas for that purpose?

For instance, did God prophecy about Jacob and Esau before they were born because God foresaw it, or because God created them to act and do just as he prophesied?

The Bible doesn't teach the concept of "fore-causation", it teaches the concept of "fore-ordination."

We all agree that "fore-ordained," according to His purposes, to save those who believe, and to condemn those who do not believe; and God also "fore-ordained" events that would bring His purposes to fruition. However, one cannot presume that because God does fore-ordain events that this means that God formed every creature to think and act just as they do.

I agree that Calvinists do interpret "fore-ordained" to mean that God fore-causes all that we think, act, and do, to fulfill his plans in contrast to God foreseeing all things and then acting upon creation to make that which God ordained regarding God's plan of salvation to occur.

Your conclusion doesn't follow logically from the facts. Joseph is not suggesting that God simply "fixed" a problem that he knew would arise. Rather, Joseph is saying that God actually orchestrated the problem in the first place.

Did Joseph really understand that God orchestrated the problem in the first place? Can you show me the Scriptures that teach this?

I do not disagree that God can orchestrate what God ordains should take place to fulfill His plan of salvation, but do you think that God orchestrating events means that God creates all people think and do only that which God planned for each of them, including all the evil things they do, and all the good things they do, or that God foresaw, and orchestrated events to work according to what God foresaw?

In fact, the Lord was the divine agent behind Joseph's entire story, which was just a mini-plot in a much larger story that God had orchestrated. This larger story was designed to teach Joseph's brothers some important lessons that would serve them well in their role as the patriarchs of Israel.

While lessons were learned, God's major purpose regarding Joseph and the famine was to preserve the Israelite people from which the Messiah would be born.

Who do you think caused the famine in the first place?

I will not presume to think; rather, the Scriptures do not say God caused the famine; rather, God prophesied to Pharoah, and interpreted by Joseph, that a famine would occur. God provided for the lineage of Israel to survive, so that the Messiah could be born.

Of course I am ignoring what God said to Jeremiah. It doesn't follow that a metaphor must make the exact same point each time it appears. In the book of Jeremiah, the Lord employs a potter metaphor to make one point, while Paul, in his letter to the Romans, also uses a potter metaphor to make an entirely different point. If I want to understand Paul's point, I would do well to avoid placing Jeremiah over Paul as an overlay. Understand Paul from within the context of his argument.

Paul, in Romans 9, only states that God has the right to form a person or nation (Israel) as he sees fit, while in "Jeremiah 18" God himself explains HOW and for what reason He forms each of us.

God has the right to form some for punishment and destruction, and others for blessing, and God said this is all based on whether we repent or not. That is what God is teaching us by His own words.

This shows that God gives all people free will to choose, and each person is responsible for his own choices. God is reasoning with the Jews saying that, 'if you repent, I will relent the punishment he intended on you (to form the unrepentant for punishment). To those who repent, God forms into vessels of noble purpose.

Perhaps you didn't catch my meaning earlier when I said that "God creates them repenting." In my view, "creation" and "causation" are two different things, especially as it pertains to God's creative action.

What do you mean when you say, "God creates them repenting?"

If you say God does not fore-cause us to make the choices we do, then did not merely foresee what we would do and act accordingly? Which is it - foresaw or fore-cause?

"Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."

You are extrapolating your own doctrine as to what you feel "John 1:3" is stating. God could just as well have created mankind in His own image, able to make choices by their own free will.

Since you say that God created all things includes "my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him," are you then saying that God fore-causes all things that he created, including your sin, and everything else? Why or why not?

Moreover, God doesn't cause or "fore-cause" anything. He speaks things into existence as it is written, "Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." Everything that comes into being is spoken into existence by the creator.

If "Everything that comes into being is spoken into existence by the creator," then God cause all things to exist. Who caused all things to exist?

I believe you mean to express your thankfulness that God is not a person who "fore-causes" evil.

Do you believe God, being creator, just foresaw what would take place, or that God created each person, according to His plan, to think and to make choices that God already pre-determined for them when he created them?

Since you say that the enabler is just as guilty as the one who commits the sins they were enabled by to do, is God guilty for all the horrendous sins that have occurred since the creation of the world? Why or why not?

God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.

That is the definition of "fore-cause," wouldn't you agree? If God is the originator, creating everything that happens, then He fore-caused, wouldn't you agree?

 

[setst777]

He may have had foreknowledge of events. But according to you, God didn't lift a finger to help Joseph anywhere along the way.

You see the problem?

You are replying to a strawman, not me. I believe God was intimately involved with Joseph's rescue, and aligned the events to occur to bring about His purpose. However, whether God caused the famine, we do not know, nor is knowing this relevant to my objection as to whether God created mankind with the thoughts and choices he would make, whether good or bad to fulfill God's plans.

Remember what our Apostle Paul wrote, "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Therefore, in order for God to work my life to the good, he has to cause everything in my life to work for the good. He has to cause everyone around me to work toward the good. The only way that Paul's word is true is if God works "ALL THINGS" to the good. Everything that happens along the way, whether good or bad, is being orchestrated "TO THE GOOD."

God is the one who fulfills His saving promises to all those who love God. All things work together for the good of those who love God. Paul then lists the promises of God for those who love him. Salvation is all God's work in those who believe, manifested by loving God.

In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.

God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

I agree that God worked to fulfill His plans according to what God foresees in His foreknowledge of events, and God can certainly cause vents. However, that doesn't mean God fore-causes all events, including every thought and action of every creature.

And no Scripture states that God created many for the purpose of being eternally tormented, and created others to save; rather, God's kind intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32), but God will only save those repent and believe.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

No Passage teaches that God saves those whom God caused to believe.

In fact, the only sinners who pass out of death into life are sinners who believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

That is why God pleads with, urges, and commands all people to repent so they may be saved.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

God is leaving the choice completely up to each individual, although God is patient, leading us to repentance.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God“

Not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly was leading them to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed, caused, and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

What did we learn from Jesus' encounter with those he healed? What is easier for Jesus? To forgive or to open blind eyes?

What we learn from Jesus' encounter with those he healed; is that, he only healed those who had faith in him.

You don't have to convince me that Lord Jesus is all the fullness of the Deity bodily. Lord Jesus is able to forgive sins and to open blind eyes. Those who are forgiven are those who Lord Jesus' sees have repented and believe in God.

CadyandZoe said: Your view is untenable because it leads to a logical contradiction. Once God looks down through time to see what you might do, your decision is fixed and you can't change it. You have no choice. If God's foreknowledge works the way you say it does, then you have no free will at all.

My Response: God foreseeing what will happen does not mean everything is fixed. God foreseeing, means God can change the outcome, or intervene, as he chooses, but without negating man’s free will to choose to repent or continue in their sins; for God is a just God who rightly judges each person according to their own deeds.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No question that God allows evil AND does evil and commands evil (destruction).

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Jonah 3:10 KJV

Making general statements gives me cause to pause. From a general perspective, the First Cause is responsible for all that follows. More specifically however, there is rebellion against the King and it is dubious to claim the King is responsible for the actions of those in rebellion, yes?

Yes. Human beings are culpable for their actions. What about fictional humans rebelling against a fictional king?

 

[Wrangler]

Yes. Human beings are culpable for their actions. What about fictional humans rebelling against a fictional king?

The same. Why would it be different?

 

[Behold]

What did we learn from Jesus' encounter with those he healed? What is easier for Jesus? To forgive or to open blind eyes?

We learned that with God all things are possible.
We learned that When we see Jesus we are looking at the work of God.
We learn that God wants to forgive everyone, and heal everyone.

An interesting thing to notice when studying all the Miracles of Jesus, is that he never said "NO" when someone asked Him for help.

So, take that to heart, when you ask God to help you, Reader.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Refuting The False TULIP Doctrine

It is impossible to be consistent when one holds doctrinal error. A long time ago men started believing that the human soul was corrupt at birth. As a result of this false belief, these men had to develop a whole system of theology in order to attempt to be consistent. In order to make this system of beliefs easier to remember, they called it “TULIP”. Each letter of this word stands for one of their doctrines. It would be beneficial for us to know of these doctrines because they are highly prominent in the religious world around us. The following are the basic teachings of “TULIP”:

Total Hereditary Depravity

“T” stands for Total Hereditary Depravity. This is the core belief of the TULIP doctrine. As a result of this belief all of the other doctrines are created. Put simply, this is the belief that the human soul is born corrupt. As soon as a baby is born, according to this doctrine, it is in sin and in need of a redeemer. In an attempt to support this doctrine they go to Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3 among others. However, notice that in Psalm 51:5, David is not saying that he was born a sinner but rather that he was born into a sinful world. What if the verse read this way, “Behold I was shaped in a potato patch and in a field of spuds did my mother conceive me?” Would this mean that David was born a potato? No, it simply means that he was born in the presence of potatoes. Also, notice that in Psalm 58:3 it says that one goes astray from the mother’s womb. One is not born astray but has to go astray. That verse proves that we are born sinless not sinful!

There are many arguments that show positively that the human soul is not sinful at birth but only when it commits sin. First of all, notice that God gives man his soul (Ecclesiastes 12:7; Zechariah 12:1). Can or would God give a man an evil soul? This would contradict James 1:17 which says that every good and perfect gift comes from God. God does not bring forth evil (Matthew 7:18). Furthermore, why would Jesus have said that the one had to become like a little child to enter into the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:1-3). Was he saying that one has to become sinful and depraved in order to go to heaven? Of course not!

Unconditional Election

As a result of the belief that man is born in a sinful state, another false teaching called Unconditional Election arose. This is our “U” in the TULIP doctrine. They believe that since man is born in such a sinful state, there is nothing that an individual can do in order to be saved. They say that salvation is solely the work of God, not man. After all, we are saved by grace and not works (Romans 3:24). Furthermore, they say that God chooses those who will be saved and those who will be lost.

To answer this doctrine, we have to remember that God’s Word is never going to contradict itself. Having said that; there are to many places that show that man must play a part in his salvation. Peter preached on Pentecost that those present must “save themselves” (Acts 2:40). Further, the Lord said that only those who “do” the will of the Father will see the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21). The Bible teaches that we are going to be judged by our “works” on the last day (2 Corinthians 5:10; John 12:48; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14). If this Unconditional Election were true, there would not need to be a judgment, for God has already decided. Finally, this doctrine makes God unjust because he would be condemning some having never given them a chance to serve him, even if they desired to do so.

Limited Atonement

Unconditional Election eventually led to the doctrine of Limited Atonement. This is our “L” in the TULIP doctrine. This is simply the belief that Christ only died for those select few whom God had chosen. Thus the atonement for sins given by his death was “limited”. This doctrine is easily proven false. First, the Bible says that Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6). Limited Atonement says that He only died for the godly. John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the “world”. God did not only love a select few but all men (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).

Irresistible Grace

“I” stands for the next doctrine to spring up called Irresistible Grace. This is the belief that the elect (those chosen by God) are going to be saved whether they desire to be or not. This would mean that a man could hate God; even worship Satan, and still be allowed to enter into heaven. Joshua told us that we have the ability to choose whom we will serve (Joshua 24:15). Peter told those on Pentecost to save themselves (Acts 2:40).

Perseverance Of The Saints

Finally, we come to the “P” which is Perseverance of the Saints. We often hear this doctrine called, “Once saved, always saved”. The Scriptures teach that man has the ability to choose whom he will serve and that his eternal soul will be judged on that choice. No one who believes in “Once saved, always saved” would deny that Paul was one of the “elect”. Yet when we read 1 Corinthians 9:27 we find that he constantly “worked” to stay in that saved condition. We can also look to Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8) as one who was saved and then lost. Judas was another. He was given the ability to do miracles like the rest of the disciples (Matthew 10:1). No one can deny that he was saved. Yet we know that he fell away. It will be our actions that will be judged on the judgment day hence, we decide whether we will go to heaven or hell by those actions (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Calvinism Refuted

Brethren, as believers in God’s inspired Word (2 Timothy 3:16), we need to consistently “refute” the false teaching of “TULIP” (Ephesians 4:14; Colossians 2:4,8; Hebrews 13:9; 1 John 4:1; 2 John 1:9-10).

 

[Behold]

Refuting The False TULIP Doctrine

It is impossible to be consistent when one holds doctrinal error. A long time ago men started believing that the human soul was corrupt at birth.

1.) By one man's sin, sin entered the human race, so that "all have sinned".

2.) By and based upon another Man's righteousness, any human can become a "new Creation in Christ".

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am going to believe what God actually revealed to us for us to understand.

Okay, me too. So believe what he said about himself. I don't think you want to do that. But okay. Go ahead. But try not to trick yourself while you are at it. Don't mentally substitute foreknowledge wherever God reveals his predestination.

so, does God foresee what man will do, or did God create mankind to think and act as God had planned for each person?

Neither. If you must know, foreknowledge with God is not "knowing about an event before it happens." Foreknowledge with God is "having a relationship with someone before now." If God foreknows an individual, God has chosen that individual before the foundation of the earth.

For instance, Paul writes "What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened . . ." From this we learn that justification is God's choice, not ours. Israel knew about God's justification but the essential criteria that made the difference between being justified and not being justified is God's election.

However, if you believe God allows a man, or demons, to do wrong, is God just as culpable as any man, and even Satan, for the sins they commit?

No, Paul argues that God is not culpable because God has the right of authorship. In other words, it is not unjust for God to create an evil person to punish in hell because God is the creator. Those who want to understand the difference between man's culpability and God's must come to understand God's transcendence. Notice how Paul put's it.

Romans 9:19-21

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? ​

Why does He still find fault?
This is the question you asked. Paul just argued that God awarded his blessing to Jacob rather than Esau quite apart from these men's decisions. It argues that it does not depend on the will of man. So, if God punishes a person he predestined to commit evil, isn't he unjust? The answer is no.

For who resists His will?
The argument against Paul's position is strengthened by Paul's view that NO ONE can resist God's will. Period, end stop. But Paul, if no one can resist his will, then what right does God have to punish us? How can such a person be blameworthy? If someone causes harm, that person deserves punishment. Once the court determines that person's role, level of intention and premeditation, that person is judged and punished. The same is true of divine justice. So how can Paul argue that God is just even while predestining harm and evil?

who are you, O man,
Some Bible students mistakenly think that Paul is scolding the impudence of the one asking the question. But no, Paul is asking his readers to remember their essential nature. Paul brings our focus to the quiddity of human beings. What kind of thing is a human being as compared to the transcendent creator God? Essentially Paul's point is to say that if God didn't predestine human evil, it wouldn't exist at all. God creates EVERYTHING that exists and nothing comes into being without him.

Secondly, just as it isn't unjust for a potter to create a toilet, God is not unjust for creating an evil human being. A potter creates what he needs for the purpose he wishes to fulfill. It is not appropriate for God to predestine an evil person if God subsequently punishes that evil person.

The Calvinists interpret, "foreknow" as used in Scripture, to mean that God "fore-causes" in contrast to God acting on what God foresees what will happen.

No, Calvinists interpret "foreknow" as "chosen before the earth's foundation was created."

I need to break this post up into two parts.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We all agree that "fore-ordained," according to His purposes, to save those who believe, and to condemn those who do not believe; and God also "fore-ordained" events that would bring His purposes to fruition. However, one cannot presume that because God does fore-ordain events that this means that God formed every creature to think and act just as they do.

As Paul argues, if God doesn't create them, they don't exist. To fore-ordain an unjust act is to create it.

I agree that Calvinists do interpret "fore-ordained" to mean that God fore-causes all that we think, act, and do, to fulfill his plans in contrast to God foreseeing all things and then acting upon creation to make that which God ordained regarding God's plan of salvation to occur.

I resist using the term "fore-cause" because of what it implies about the nature of God. Causation can only be understood within the ontological realm where it exists. If I tip over a glass of milk, then I caused the milk to spill out. But if I write a story in which Joe tips over the glass, then it can't be said that I caused the milk to spill because within the ontological realm of my story, Joe was the one who tipped over the glass. I am the author of my story and just as God transcends his creation, I transcend my story. I predestined that Joe would tip over the glass and within my story, Joe must clean up his mess.

Did Joseph really understand that God orchestrated the problem in the first place? Can you show me the Scriptures that teach this?

I was directed to Joseph's story due to the profound insight he shared regarding God's transcendental orientation towards the creation. In fact, God conveyed the same idea through the prophets, particularly through Isaiah. According to Isaiah, God argues that the wooden gods or idols that Israel makes are merely a product of their imagination. They have not only carved an idol out of wood but also invented a fictitious backstory for it. So, nothing about the idol is authentic.

God decides to disabuse Israel of their idolatry by proving himself to Israel. His proof comes in the form of a prediction that once the prediction comes to pass, Israel will know that The Lord is God. His proof wasn't a matter of foreknowledge; God says that he is going to cause things to happen. His proof won't be a matter of God's prescience; it will be a matter of his omnipotence. A review of Isaiah 40 would be profitable. Also, a review of Isaiah chapter 42 will reveal God's word to Israel that he will reveal what he will do before it happens so that they can know that he is no mere idol.

I do not disagree that God can orchestrate what God ordains should take place to fulfill His plan of salvation, but do you think that God orchestrating events means that God creates all people think and do only that which God planned for each of them, including all the evil things they do, and all the good things they do, or that God foresaw, and orchestrated events to work according to what God foresaw?

Yes, God creates everything -- even history. And if God creates history, then logically he creates every decision that has ever been made.

In the following passage, the term translated "world" is actually the word for "age." God creates history.

Hebrews 1:1-2

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. (Age)​

In the book of Ephesians Paul argues that God manages time in order to bring all his chosen ones under Christ.

I will not presume to think; rather, the Scriptures do not say God caused the famine; rather, God prophesied to Pharoah, and interpreted by Joseph, that a famine would occur. God provided for the lineage of Israel to survive, so that the Messiah could be born.

God caused the famine.

This shows that God gives all people free will to choose, and each person is responsible for his own choices. God is reasoning with the Jews saying that, 'if you repent, I will relent the punishment he intended on you (to form the unrepentant for punishment). To those who repent, God forms into vessels of noble purpose.

Sure, just as Joe must clean up his own spilt milk, but if he does, he only does so if I write that into the story.

What do you mean when you say, "God creates them repenting?"

One may conceive God as the great watchmaker of creation. In the beginning, God created a watch that he allows to run down over time. Everything that is caused has a predicate cause.

Other theologians believe that God creates everything moment-by-moment. So if I repent of my sins, God is creating me repenting of my sins.

If you say God does not fore-cause us to make the choices we do, then did not merely foresee what we would do and act accordingly? Which is it - foresaw or fore-cause?

No, I resist using the term "fore-cause" because of what it implies about God's nature.

You are extrapolating your own doctrine as to what you feel "John 1:3" is stating.

Am I? I think John is making an emphatic statement about the transcendence of God.

God could just as well have created mankind in His own image, able to make choices by their own free will.

If he did that, then he would be creating more than one first cause, which is a meaningless concept. There can only be one first cause.

Since you say that God created all things includes "my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him," are you then saying that God fore-causes all things that he created, including your sin, and everything else? Why or why not?

Do you believe God, being creator, just foresaw what would take place, or that God created each person, according to His plan, to think and to make choices that God already pre-determined for them when he created them?

Let's review Paul's argument once more. Notice that Paul predicates God's blessing on something he did beforehand.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared BUfor glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.​

If we read this too fast we might mistakenly think that God prepared his reward beforehand, but in fact, Paul says that God prepared the vessels beforehand. In other words, I think, God prepared the vessels before they existed and had any chance to make a decision one way or the other.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

1.) By one man's sin, sin entered the human race, so that "all have sinned".

This does not mean we were all born sinners.

It simply means all have sinned. God did not put sin in to every child that was born

2.) By and based upon another Man's righteousness, any human can become a "new Creation in Christ".

Correct. The Lord provided a way for ALL people to be saved and He is not preventing anybody from getting saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are replying to a strawman, not me. I believe God was intimately involved with Joseph's rescue, and aligned the events to occur to bring about His purpose.

How? It is easy to say that God was intimately involved with Joseph's rescue, but absolute freedom defeats that statement. It's as if to say that God violates everyone else's freedom in order to rescue Joseph. Now, I understand that you aren't saying that directly or explicitly but that is the logical conclusion of what you assert. You can't have it both ways. Either freedom is sacrosanct for all or it isn't for anyone.

Even so, in your answer, you didn't mention a single case where God intervenes on Joseph's behalf. The entire story reads like the sum total of every free-will decision of everyone involved. Where did Joseph get the insight that God was involved in how things turned out?

However, whether God caused the famine, we do not know, nor is knowing this relevant to my objection as to whether God created mankind with the thoughts and choices he would make, whether good or bad to fulfill God's plans.

Again, how will God fulfill his plans unless 1) he forces people, or 2) he creates the free-will actions of those involved?

God is the one who fulfills His saving promises to all those who love God. All things work together for the good of those who love God. Paul then lists the promises of God for those who love him. Salvation is all God's work in those who believe, manifested by loving God.

You changed Paul's view slightly. He didn't say "all things work for the good . . .", he said "God works all things to the good. God works all thinks. Let that sink in.

I agree that God worked to fulfill His plans according to what God foresees in His foreknowledge of events, and God can certainly cause vents. However, that doesn't mean God fore-causes all events, including every thought and action of every creature.

How is that even possible? How can God see me bake a cake unless I already baked it? And how can God stop me from baking a cake that he already saw me bake? In other words, God is powerless over the future in your view.

And no Scripture states that God created many for the purpose of being eternally tormented, and created others to save; rather, God's kind intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32), but God will only save those repent and believe.

Well, the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment, but it does teach permanent destruction. And Paul argues in Romans 9, that God creates people for the purpose of destruction.

No Passage teaches that God saves those whom God caused to believe.

Well, the idea is all over the Bible. God is saving those whom HE chose. If God must wait for me to believe, then how can you say that God chose? If I choose to believe then I chose myself for salvation. Paul says that among the Israelites, only the chosen obtained justification, the rest were HARDENED. Right? Who hardened them against making the right choice? God did.

In fact, the only sinners who pass out of death into life are sinners who believe.

Right. But it doesn't follow, therefore, that God didn't unharden them first so that they could believe.

That is why God pleads with, urges, and commands all people to repent so they may be saved.

Again, It doesn't follow from this that human beings have autonomous freedom. God is writing a story with his creation and in the story, he pleads with them to repent and some repent, because God wrote the story to go that way.

God is leaving the choice completely up to each individual, although God is patient, leading us to repentance.

No, Paul and the other apostles argue that salvation is by God's choice not the individual's.

All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed, caused, and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

Again, God is the creator telling a story with his creation. It isn't hypocritical for an author to create bad guys to punish or good guys to reward.

CadyandZoe said: Your view is untenable because it leads to a logical contradiction. Once God looks down through time to see what you might do, your decision is fixed and you can't change it. You have no choice. If God's foreknowledge works the way you say it does, then you have no free will at all.

My Response: God foreseeing what will happen does not mean everything is fixed.

It it isn't fixed, how does God 'see' it? You might say, well, something might happen in the meantime, changing the future. If that is true, then God sees another future which fixed.

Suppose I am offered a choice to pick A or B? If I pick A, I automatically foreclose on every outcome that depends on B. If I choose B then I automatically foreclose on every outcome that depends on A. And this process goes on into infinity and results in an exponential growth of possible futures. If God sees the future, then the probability field collapses down to a single point. Every choice and alternate choice leading up to the future that God saw has already been made. There are NO other possibilities left. That point is fixed and can't be changed. All of the probable outcomes have been closed.

Now, if God wants to change my future, he has to get out his spreadsheet and trace the future back to that one choice I made that began the series of choices that led to the undesirable outcome. But I wanted A to begin with. So if God wants me to choose B instead of A, he needs to coerce me or force me to make a different choice. Alternate B might be good for me in the long run, but then my choice wouldn't reflect my own hopes, dreams, beliefs, expectations etc. It would no longer be MY future, but that of someone else.

God foreseeing, means God can change the outcome, or intervene, as he chooses, but without negating man’s free will to choose to repent or continue in their sins; for God is a just God who rightly judges each person according to their own deeds.

I think it makes more sense to believe that God creates my free-will choices instead. Then nothing needs to get fixed.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said:
I am going to believe what God actually revealed to us for us to understand.

Okay, me too.

If you really believed that, then you would not ignore or reject God's own explanation of who he forms persons and nations in "Jeremiah 18."

Just as God is teaching in "Jeremiah 18," God likewise explains that he will only give a new heart and new spirit to those who first repent, putting away the detestable things:

Ezekiel 11:16-21 (WEB) 18 “‘They will come there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them. They will be my people, and I will be their God. 21 But as for them whose heart walks after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their way on their own heads,’ says the Lord Yahweh.”

Foreknowledge with God is "having a relationship with someone before now." If God foreknows an individual, God has chosen that individual before the foundation of the earth.

I agree, but that is an Arminian/Wesleyan meaning for the word "foreknowledge."

God has chosen the believers - the we, us, our, you are pronouns that refer back to the believers whom Paul is writing to.

God chose us believers to be in him from before the foundation of the world.

In Calvinism, God determined all things just as they are, which is what Calvinists mean by the word "foreknowledge" - to "fore-cause" or "determine."

In Calvinism, God does not act on foreknowledge.

For instance, Paul writes "What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened . . ." From this we learn that justification is God's choice, not ours. Israel knew about God's justification but the essential criteria that made the difference between being justified and not being justified is God's election.

The ones "chosen" are those who believe:

Romans 9:30-32 (WEB) 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who didn’t follow after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith; 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn’t arrive at the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they didn’t seek it by faith, but as it were by works of the law.

No, Paul argues that God is not culpable because God has the right of authorship. In other words, it is not unjust for God to create an evil person to punish in hell because God is the creator. Those who want to understand the difference between man's culpability and God's must come to understand God's transcendence. Notice how Paul put's it.

Romans 9:19-21

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? ​

Paul is not discussing here how or why God forms the clay into vessels of wrath, but you want to speak for God, teaching God that He can just create vessels to be evil and then torment forever at the judgment, and God is just in doing so. No where in Scripture does God reveal himself like that.

According to God himself, how God forms a person or nation (the clay) into a vessel of wrath or blessing depends on whether the person or nation turns from the evil ways.

Jeremiah 18:5-11 (WEB)
5 Then Yahweh’s word came to me, saying, 6 “House of Israel, can’t I do with you as this potter?” says Yahweh. “Behold, as the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, house of Israel. 7 At the instant I speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; 8 if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do to them. 9 At the instant I speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 if they do that which is evil in my sight, that they not obey my voice, then I will repent of the good with which I said I would benefit them.

11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Yahweh says: “Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a plan against you. Everyone return from his evil way now, and amend your ways and your doings.”’

 

[CadyandZoe]

The same. Why would it be different?

It wouldn't. I asked the question to highlight the quality of transcendence. This helps us understand how God's transcendence must work. I have the benefit of a book that my mentor wrote called "The most real being" written by Jack Crabtree. In that book, he argues that God is more real than we are.

Returning to our example of the fictional king, one might argue that the king isn't real. But human beings ARE real. Yes, I agree human beings are real, but as Jack argues, God is more real. From his position, he is able to create me, making free-will choices, just as a novel writer can create a story in which the characters are making free-will choices.

I don't like to swim out this far, but a nice person asked me to open this thread. I hope it is helpful.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The blind cannot give themselves spiritual vision. GOD MUST first lift that veil and enable them to see ...( before they are born again) Then through His Word, we begin to become persuaded. Then we say yes ... or no.
Election means He chose us first. There in lies the conumdrum. We are predestined ... our names were written in the Book of Life before we were born ... that we will be saved ... that we will say yes. This is a baffling concept to comprehend. We just have to realize that God is in control AND THE AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH. As He gave man ability to write His Word down, He gave man ability to make responsible decisions (and to hear His voice when He says, "You ought tonsay yes to Christ"). He is gracious, granting us minimal participation in this divine process and so includes us in His Sovereign Plan. Evidently everyone's name is not in that Book of Life. Everyone is not His elect. He does not desire that any would perish but knows many will. Otherwise the Gate into Heaven would not be described as being " narrow".
Anyways, I am not a Calvinist. TULIP is a flawed doctrine. One would have to be omniscient to formulate such a doctrine. TULIP sort of restricts and devalues any decision of man and puts God in a box. His ways are beyond our comprehension to be so arrogant as to form a structural blueprint for them.

T. I would say man was not even totally depraved before the Flood because the Bible says, man is without excuse ( Romans 1). If he was totally depraved, that would be his excuse. He could say, I never had any inkling that you existed, was never given any obvious clues invisible or visible in nature or within me, nor messages or information or laws from you or anyone else about you, nor did I ever here of a book called the Bible - "Your Honor, I claim my innocence based on my total depravity - in my defense!"

U. It is not unconditional election, it must be conditional election. We are given an invitation to heaven IF AND WHEN WE BELIEVE.

L. It's not limited atonement if it is conditional election. His blood sacrifice is sufficient and powerful enough to cleanse all sins - it doesn't matter that all won't be saved, it is sufficient.

I. Scripture says God draws all men to Himself. But not all men receive Him.
Obviously, some resist and reject. We are advised throughout the Bible to believe in Christ and that we are without excuse. Christ puts that out there: If you believe in Me, you will have life.

P. Actually I agree with the perseverence of the saints. It really means the perseverance of God in our lives to secure our salvation ( with our humble participation). In other words, OSAS.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: You are replying to a strawman, not me. I believe God was intimately involved with Joseph's rescue, and aligned the events to occur to bring about His purpose.

How? It is easy to say that God was intimately involved with Joseph's rescue, but absolute freedom defeats that statement.

What do you mean by absolute freedom, because I never used that term?

Every person is free to choose, being created in God's Image, but God can work through circumstances to take advantage of the choices we will make to fulfill his plans.

It's as if to say that God violates everyone else's freedom in order to rescue Joseph. Now, I understand that you aren't saying that directly or explicitly but that is the logical conclusion of what you assert. You can't have it both ways. Either freedom is sacrosanct for all or it isn't for anyone.

For instance, if my desire is to help those who are victims of abuse, then God cause circumstances to take advantage of my desire to help victims of abuse. Nothing is being violated.

Even so, in your answer, you didn't mention a single case where God intervenes on Joseph's behalf. The entire story reads like the sum total of every free-will decision of everyone involved. Where did Joseph get the insight that God was involved in how things turned out?

Joseph received insight from God that God was involved in how things turned out be giving Joseph visions and dreams beforehand.

Again, how will God fulfill his plans unless 1) he forces people, or 2) he creates the free-will actions of those involved?

Neither "1)" or "2)" are valid. The third option you completely missed is that God created mankind in His image with the ability to choose, and God works through our choices (whether evil choices or good choices) and our prayers to bring about his will.

You changed Paul's view slightly. He didn't say "all things work for the good . . .", he said "God works all things to the good. God works all thinks. Let that sink in.

No, Paul stated just as I stated to you as follows:

Romans 8:28 (WEB) We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose.

To use your own language, "Let that sink in."

How is that even possible? How can God see me bake a cake unless I already baked it? And how can God stop me from baking a cake that he already saw me bake? In other words, God is powerless over the future in your view.

God foresees all.

Well, the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment, but it does teach permanent destruction. And Paul argues in Romans 9, that God creates people for the purpose of destruction.

"Destruction," according to all the NT teaching about "The Judgment" means being shut out from the presence of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (EWEB) 6 Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, 9 who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord

By just the context alone, we see that “eternal destruction” is a “separation” from the “face of the Lord,” which would be in line with all the Scriptures teaching us that the wicked are cast into “outer darkness,” “outside,” and is a place of separation of the wicked from God’s presence. In other words, at the judgment, any possibility of grace in the presence of God’s love is forever destroyed.

Well, the idea is all over the Bible. God is saving those whom HE chose.

God chose to save those who will believe in Lord Jesus (John 3:16). This truth is continually repeated in many ways throughout the NT.

No Scripture states that God saves those who God caused to believe.

Paul says that among the Israelites, only the chosen obtained justification, the rest were HARDENED. Right? Who hardened them against making the right choice? God did.

If God had to harden the hearts of many of the Jews in judgment, because they refused His grace. That means that they were not created hardened, but that God had to harden them in punishment, so they never again turn to him to be healed.

John 12:40 (WEB) “He has blinded their eyes and he hardened their heart, lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and would turn, and I would heal them.” [Isaiah 6:10]

The remnant in Israel who are chosen by grace, are those who believe.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Again, God is the creator telling a story with his creation. It isn't hypocritical for an author to create bad guys to punish or good guys to reward.

You are not players in God's Script; rather, we are real living breathing human beings whom God desires to save, but we have to be willing.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

Many do refuse God's grace, but they could repent and turn to God if they wanted to, and God is patient, leading them to repent. I know you don't really believe these Scriptures, because you ignore them each time I quote them, but I write this for all those on these boards who do seek the Truth from God's Word.

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you really believed that, then you would not ignore or reject God's own explanation of who he forms persons and nations in "Jeremiah 18."

As I said, a metaphor can have more than one analogy.

I agree, but that is an Arminian/Wesleyan meaning for the word "foreknowledge."

I didn't know that. But it happens to be a Calvinistic understanding also.

God has chosen the believers - the we, us, our, you are pronouns that refer back to the believers whom Paul is writing to.

No, that makes no sense of the passage. It presumes that God could have done otherwise, i.e. choose non-believers instead. Paul's point is that people are chosen before they are born. Isaac was the child of promise before he was born. He didn't do anything good or bad. He didn't believe or not believe.

God chose us believers to be in him from before the foundation of the world.

Right. But we became believers after the foundation of the world.

In Calvinism, God determined all things just as they are, which is what Calvinists mean by the word "foreknowledge" - to "fore-cause" or "determine."

I don't think that is true. I have never heard this until you mentioned it.

In Calvinism, God does not act on foreknowledge.

Of course. Acting on foreknowledge makes no sense.

What does Predestination mean? Before the creation of the world, God made an eternal decision regarding the destiny of all angels and humans. Predestination is NOT deciding the destiny of someone ahead of time. Predestination is God orchestrating a person's history so that the person arrives at the destination chosen by God. In other words, the destiny of a person is determined by millions of different choices that a person and God make together at the same time. A single decision is determined by a human will and a divine will at the same time.

Paul is not discussing here how or why God forms the clay into vessels of wrath, but you want to speak for God, teaching God that He can just create vessels to be evil and then torment forever at the judgment, and God is just in doing so. No where in Scripture does God reveal himself like that.

Romans 9.

 

[setst777]

The blind cannot give themselves spiritual vision. GOD MUST first lift that veil and enable them to see ...( before they are born again) Then through His Word, we begin to become persuaded. Then we say yes ... or no.
Election means He chose us first. There in lies the conumdrum. We are predestined ... our names were written in the Book of Life before we were born ... that we will be saved ... that we will say yes. This is a baffling concept to comprehend. We just have to realize that God is in control AND THE AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH. As He gave man ability to write His Word down, He gave man ability to make responsible decisions (and to hear His voice when He says, "You ought tonsay yes to Christ"). He is gracious, granting us minimal participation in this divine process and so includes us in His Sovereign Plan. Evidently everyone's name is not in that Book of Life. Everyone is not His elect. He does not desire that any would perish but knows many will. Otherwise the Gate into Heaven would not be described as being " narrow".
Anyways, I am not a Calvinist. TULIP is a flawed doctrine. One would have to be omniscient to formulate such a doctrine. TULIP sort of restricts and devalues any decision of man and puts God in a box. His ways are beyond our comprehension to be so arrogant as to form a structural blueprint for them.

T. I would say man was not even totally depraved before the Flood because the Bible says, man is without excuse ( Romans 1). If he was totally depraved, that would be his excuse. He could say, I never had any inkling that you existed, was never given any obvious clues invisible or visible in nature or within me, nor messages or information or laws from you or anyone else about you, nor did I ever here of a book called the Bible - "Your Honor, I claim my innocence based on my total depravity - in my defense!"

U. It is not unconditional election, it must be conditional election. We are given an invitation to heaven IF AND WHEN WE BELIEVE.

L. It's not limited atonement if it is conditional election. His blood sacrifice is sufficient and powerful enough to cleanse all sins - it doesn't matter that all won't be saved, it is sufficient.

I. Scripture says God draws all men to Himself. But not all men receive Him.
Obviously, some resist and reject. We are advised throughout the Bible to believe in Christ and that we are without excuse. Christ puts that out there: If you believe in Me, you will have life.

P. Actually I agree with the perseverence of the saints. It really means the perseverance of God in our lives to secure our salvation ( with our humble participation). In other words, OSAS.

You must be a Traditionalist/Provisionist.

However, the Apostle Paul plainly taught that the Spirit-Indwelt believer can fall away, for the indwelling Spirit will only give Eternal Life to the Spirit-indwelt believer who sows to the Spirit without giving up.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

Many Christians will:

• Grieve the indwelling Spirit (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10);
• Quench the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19);
• Insult/Engrage the indwelling Spirit (Hebrews 10:24-31);
• Reject the indwelling Spirit (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8),
• Lie to the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:3),
• Test the indwelling Spirit (Acts 5:9)

The Spirit leads as we continue in the faith diligent to follow the Spirit’s guidance. By refusing to be led by the Spirit into a sanctified life, they show they have fallen. Such Christians are rejecting God (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8). The result of resisting can be eternal punishment if the Christian dies in unrepentance (Hebrews 10:24-30). So we are to continue to walk in the Spirit, who indwells us by faith, to have life.

 

[setst777]

As I said, a metaphor can have more than one analogy.

God himself gave the meaning to the metaphor. The Apostle Paul just stated the metaphor without explaining the reasons within that section of his Epistle. But if you read the entire Epistle, you will see that God saves those who believe and condemns those who do not believe.

Romans 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

That is the choice Paul states that God gives all mankind. God forms for salvation or punishment based on how they respond, just as Paul explains here. People can do otherwise, just as Paul teaches.

What does Predestination mean? Before the creation of the world, God made an eternal decision regarding the destiny of all angels and humans. Predestination is NOT deciding the destiny of someone ahead of time. Predestination is God orchestrating a person's history so that the person arrives at the destination chosen by God.

Can you show me that your definition of "predestined" is the Bible's definition?

"Predestination," from what I see in Scripture, refers only to God's plan to conform us (who love God) to the Image of Christ:

Romans 8:28 (WEB) We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

The believer is conformed to the image of His Son, as the believer remains faithful to put on the new man.

Colossians 3:9-12 (WEB) 9 Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings, 10 and have put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator, 11 where there can’t be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondservant, or free person; but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance

That is the nature of God's being: compassion, kindness, lowliness, humility, and perseverance

 

[CadyandZoe]

God himself gave the meaning to the metaphor.

And Paul gave HIS meaning to the metaphor. The potter metaphor in Jeremiah has a completely different meaning than the potter metaphor in Romans.

The Apostle Paul just stated the metaphor without explaining the reasons within that section of his Epistle.

Sure he did. He uses the metaphor and then he explains it.

But if you read the entire Epistle, you will see that God saves those who believe and condemns those who do not believe.

Yes, that is the message of the entire Bible. But Paul is explaining why some believe while others don't.

Can you show me that your definition of "predestined" is the Bible's definition?

"Predestination," from what I see in Scripture, refers only to God's plan to conform us (who love God) to the Image of Christ:

Romans 8:28 (WEB) We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Okay, the word "conformed" is in the passive voice meaning that God is doing the conforming, not us.

The believer is conformed to the image of His Son, as the believer remains faithful to put on the new man.

And the believer remains faithful because the Spirit of God has been poured out into his heart.

God's love is preemptive.

 

[Wrangler]

more real

Existence is not relative but absolute.