Uncovering the Devil's Strategy

[Lizbeth]

We are under the condemnation of the law if we do not have the Spirit dwell within us. In the OT God shows that He is angry with His people who disobey Him and hold the truth in unrighteousness. Only the perfect in the OT escape His wrath.

I agree with what you are saying before this.

But I have trouble accepting that those who came to genuine faith in God/Christ with faith not of their own and received the earnest of the Spirit are under condemnation (necessarily). We are saved by faith without works. I suspect we need balance with this. To my understanding "perfect" can be a relative term to God.....it isn't something carved in stone like a law, but is a spiritual term......the Lord judges it relative to the measure of grace and faith and light one has received and where anyone is in their growth, assuming we are in the race and not sitting on our laurels taking salvation for granted or abusing it. The thief on the cross was a babe in Christ and had to have been far from literal "perfection" and full stature of Christ, and yet he was saved. Abraham believed God and it was CREDITED/IMPUTED to him as righteousness. Paul said of his Romans 7 phase "if I do that I don't want to do it is no longer I who sin but sin living in me"....that is grace, not condemnation.

Though I believe (and have experienced) that being under conviction can feel like condemnation, because our sins and shortcomings and carnal nature is being condemned and judged, as it should be, even if not we ourselves. Our time in the wilderness is far from comfort and joy. I have been confronting things that need overcoming in me I never realized before, and as a fairly perceptive person, I thought I knew myself pretty well...He has to bring things up into the light (and knowing that doesn't make it any easier.) The scripture says judgment begins with His house now, in this life, so that we will not be judged/ condemned with the world.

We do receive the Spirit but to be baptized wherein means that He can dwell within, not just have communication and Him be with us in a sense. The whole OT is about God being unable to dwell where there is sin and thanks to Jesus, He opened up the possibility of the cleansing required and paid the enormous price for us to be restored to what God intended, not after death but now.

I consider that the earnest of the Spirit is within us....it is God's Spirit that quickens us to new life when we received Him and were born of the Spirit. We have faith in us that is not of our own, but is of the Spirit, because the Spirit (earnest) is in us. The earnest of the Spirit in us is what made us a new creature in the inner man and is the reason His laws are on our hearts within. I think He has to be in us to do that, but with more to come so to speak. Christ IN us is the hope of glory/perfection/holiness. Which I agree is attainable in this life, as walking in the Spirit, and the church has been setting the bar too low.

We are so blind in the flesh. Anything that takes away that push to entire and radical abandonment is not a good thing though the flesh in us will jump at it. If the Holy Spirit is convicting us of our poor service and failures, any get out will be erroneous to our souls health.

It is better to have a millstone around our necks.

The answer is to take that step over the precipice and throw ourselves at His mercy.

Amen. And I believe it must be with Him, not apart from Him. We could no more do that than we could have saved ourselves in the beginning apart from Him, His Spirit. It's something we can and need to seek and ask the Lord for, as we grow to perceive our lack and need of it.

Andrew Murray along with others of the Keswick spirituality will say without sin but when you try to pin them down they generally mean no deliberate sin and if so to repent at once. That is not the walking in the Spirit I speak of. If ones sins in that you are out of the blessing. But it is not likely. What usually happens is that we lean on our own understanding over something. That will lead to sin but the desire to sin is gone in the ES state.

Amen, I agree with you. Know it by its fruits. I'm sure the reality was more rare than they wanted it to be. If someone is fully in the spirit they are taken out of and above the flesh, flesh is rendered inert so to speak (going by my "tastes"), so they wouldn't be sinning in that state even inadvertently.

 

[Lizbeth]

The early church was all about this doctrine. Of course there would be dissenters from NT times but the first few hundred years were spent fighting the gnositics and arians. It was taken for granted that holiness teaching was understood and accepted.

That's very good to know....if you can, would you mind posting links to a couple of sources that show the early church teaching these things? I am not much of a researcher or scholarly type (even less so now, lol) and have never looked into historical things to do with the church.

Not all Orthodox writers were accepted as theologians, just a handful were, and they were the ones who were walking in the blessing. No one else was accepted as able to theologise. All bishops had to be in the blessing but things began to go downhill and they started to allow it due to lack of candidates.

Word of mouth coming down from the ES'ed was accepted as authoritative. And yes scripture but the deeper spiritual meaning is missed by the carnal.

I can understand why we would want only those who were walking in the spirit to lead the church. So sad that it got lost along the way.

It is said of the first century church that "GREAT grace was upon them all"....makes me wonder if it was to give the church a rocket boost in the beginning and then it fraduallyl faded away. I hope and wonder if maybe the remnant church will have this restored and receive another rocket boost to get us through the last days and to truly glorify God in sight of the world before He judges it. Feel like the Lord was showing me this in the book of Esther (bride of the King)...type and shadow of the last days....the "King" giving us a bunch of "weapons" to overcome Haman/Satan and his efforts to destroy the people of God.....like a picture of this:

Mal 4:1-3

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Paul would not have been in such distress if he thought that there was no condemnation. There was till chapter 8 when he had crossed the sea and said straight away 'there is therefore no condemnation' in his new state.

I can understand his distress.....conscience and feeling the fear of the Lord and His condemnation of the carnal nature and sins, as I understand it. Not he himself being condemned....if he was doing what he didn't want to do and was fighting to battle it and seeking to do better and overcome. Truly, I'm convinced this is the right way to understand this sister, but of course I leave it with you to sort it out with the Lord.

' The Israelites dying those 40 years in the wilderness is a picture of believers dying to ourselves so that we can enter and receive the promise.'

They died - game over and as it says in the OT, the tree remains where it lies. They had lost the chance of the promised land.

Amen, I agree there is for sure a warning in it, as the new testament says. There is the danger of dying in the sense of falling away, in the wilderness....being tempted to rebel like Korah and sons, or being tempted to back to the leeks and onions of Egypt etc. But at the same time I believe it is also giving us a picture of the carnal nature of the flesh dying so that only what is born of the Spirit can enter....pictured by their "children". Flesh cannot enter. It is written that they were "circumcised a second time"....second blessing.....crossing the Jordan is a picture of crossing through death to receive/enter resurrection life. Like a second baptism into life, whereas the Red Sea crossing was the first baptism into the death of Christ....and it is like we are walking through His death as we walk through the wilderness, being broken and "dying" as He was. As soon as Jesus was baptized he was led/driven by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted and do battle with the source of temptation. If I'm seeing this aright. Hope I'm even explaining things well enough.....not feeling too sharp these days.

'to die to ourself..'

We are to deny self not die to it. Death is for the old man who is not the same as self.

I think I agree with this sister. Dying to self is really just a term to refer to the dying of the old self, as in old man, carnal nature.

 

[Lizbeth]

Andrew Murray said there are two stages on the highway to holiness - the carnal then the entirely sanctified. The early church said three - the carnal, the enlightened and the deified or ES'ed.

He speaks as an enlightened soul.

Maybe it depends on whether we are talking about a specific "experience" or "event" or not? Coming to faith was an experience/event, and i believe, from what I'm gleaning at least, that entering that state of holiness we are talking about is also an experience or event....but being enlightened to know one's need of it is more of a process and gradual realization than an event per se? I have been wondering whether A. Murray had experienced that second blessing/ES or not. It sounds like not then, at the time he was writing those things..? Don't know if he has written any testimonies or whether he had tasted of being in the spirit at least.

He claims that we are saved at the 'first' blessing or stage. The early church said it is union with Christ that saves us which is at the end of the highway or the start of life in the Spirit and a man of full stature and maturity in Christ.

He says we have the Holy Spirit even when we sin. The early church denied that. It goes against all of the OT and the picture of the temple with the outer court, the inner court, and the holy of holies.

I believe the scriptures say we are/were saved in the beginning, by faith.....that's the gospel. But we also have a walk to walk on the narrow path, a race to run, a journey to take. There is a "yes but not necessarily yet" to things. We have the "proving of our faith" to undergo in this life. If we should die when not yet perfected into the full stature of Christ, but have been paying the price and are on the narrow path following and serving Him the best we know how according to the light and measure of grace and growth we have hitherto received, fighting the good fight of faith and not living in gross sins and disobedience, well, I believe it's not really a bad thing for a believer if our flesh dies and carnal nature dies with it. Rewards will be according to what we did with what we had, as much or as little as we had. The gift is not reckoned according to what we don't have but only according to what we do have, at any given time....and the bar gets set higher as we grow and are given/gain more....like more is expected of children as they grow, compared to when they were younger. I'm quite sure the question of entire sanctification is a separate question from the question of salvation......it's not a black and white or carved in stone kind of thing. Otherwise grace would not be grace, seems to me.....it would just be payment of what is owing.

 

[Hepzibah]

I agree with what you are saying before this.

But I have trouble accepting that those who came to genuine faith in God/Christ with faith not of their own and received the earnest of the Spirit are under condemnation (necessarily). We are saved by faith without works.

There is faith and there is saving faith. If we believe that He came to free us from sin, and the price is paid by our submission, then that faith saves.

The earnest of the Spirit is like a handshake between business partners, to seal the deal which will occur in the future. I am not saying that the entrance to the journey of the spiritual life is nothing but once one has the sacrifice which was lain on the altar, accepted, the fire comes down and the power of the Holy Spirit does the workings, not ourselves.

I suspect we need balance with this. To my understanding "perfect" can be a relative term to God.....it isn't something carved in stone like a law, but is a spiritual term......the Lord judges it relative to the measure of grace and faith and light one has received and where anyone is in their growth, assuming we are in the race and not sitting on our laurels taking salvation for granted or abusing it. The thief on the cross was a babe in Christ and had to have been far from literal "perfection" and full stature of Christ, and yet he was saved.

How do we know he was a babe? It sounds to me that he was ES'ed on the cross but was already a follower.

Abraham believed God and it was CREDITED/IMPUTED to him as righteousness. Paul said of his Romans 7 phase "if I do that I don't want to do it is no longer I who sin but sin living in me"....that is grace, not condemnation.

Though I believe (and have experienced) that being under conviction can feel like condemnation, because our sins and shortcomings and carnal nature is being condemned and judged, as it should be, even if not we ourselves. Our time in the wilderness is far from comfort and joy. I have been confronting things that need overcoming in me I never realized before, and as a fairly perceptive person, I thought I knew myself pretty well...He has to bring things up into the light (and knowing that doesn't make it any easier.) The scripture says judgment begins with His house now, in this life, so that we will not be judged/ condemned with the world.

We are not condemned if in the Spirit. Paul says so in the beginning of Romans 8 for a reason, the reason being that he knew he really was under condemnation in the flesh.

I consider that the earnest of the Spirit is within us....it is God's Spirit that quickens us to new life when we received Him and were born of the Spirit. We have faith in us that is not of our own, but is of the Spirit, because the Spirit (earnest) is in us. The earnest of the Spirit in us is what made us a new creature in the inner man and is the reason His laws are on our hearts within. I think He has to be in us to do that, but with more to come so to speak. Christ IN us is the hope of glory/perfection/holiness. Which I agree is attainable in this life, as walking in the Spirit, and the church has been setting the bar too low.

We are born of the Spirit when we are baptised in the Spirit - a new creation, one that is led entirely by the Spirit and joins with God as partakers of His nature. The hope being fulfilled.

Amen. And I believe it must be with Him, not apart from Him. We could no more do that than we could have saved ourselves in the beginning apart from Him, His Spirit. It's something we can and need to seek and ask the Lord for, as we grow to perceive our lack and need of it.


Amen, I agree with you. Know it by its fruits. I'm sure the reality was more rare than they wanted it to be. If someone is fully in the spirit they are taken out of and above the flesh, flesh is rendered inert so to speak (going by my "tastes"), so they wouldn't be sinning in that state even inadvertently.

I am so pleased that we do have so much agreement then. There is just the matter of when the new creature is formed which brings us salvation..

 

[Hepzibah]

That's very good to know....if you can, would you mind posting links to a couple of sources that show the early church teaching these things? I am not much of a researcher or scholarly type (even less so now, lol) and have never looked into historical things to do with the church.

Early Christian Authorities Teach Theosis

Early Christian authorities teach that humanity should become God, which is the doctrine of theosis, also known as deification.

new-god-argument.com

Here are some quotes. Don't forget that they did not say that a man will have all of the attributes of God to be made a partaker.

I can understand why we would want only those who were walking in the spirit to lead the church. So sad that it got lost along the way.

It is said of the first century church that "GREAT grace was upon them all"....makes me wonder if it was to give the church a rocket boost in the beginning and then it fraduallyl faded away. I hope and wonder if maybe the remnant church will have this restored and receive another rocket boost to get us through the last days and to truly glorify God in sight of the world before He judges it. Feel like the Lord was showing me this in the book of Esther (bride of the King)...type and shadow of the last days....the "King" giving us a bunch of "weapons" to overcome Haman/Satan and his efforts to destroy the people of God.....like a picture of this:

Mal 4:1-3

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The healing has been going on since the start. Healing from the problem of mankind - falling like Adam.

I can understand his distress.....conscience and feeling the fear of the Lord and His condemnation of the carnal nature and sins, as I understand it. Not he himself being condemned....if he was doing what he didn't want to do and was fighting to battle it and seeking to do better and overcome. Truly, I'm convinced this is the right way to understand this sister, but of course I leave it with you to sort it out with the Lord.


Amen, I agree there is for sure a warning in it, as the new testament says. There is the danger of dying in the sense of falling away, in the wilderness....being tempted to rebel like Korah and sons, or being tempted to back to the leeks and onions of Egypt etc. But at the same time I believe it is also giving us a picture of the carnal nature of the flesh dying so that only what is born of the Spirit can enter....pictured by their "children". Flesh cannot enter. It is written that they were "circumcised a second time"....second blessing.....crossing the Jordan is a picture of crossing through death to receive/enter resurrection life. Like a second baptism into life, whereas the Red Sea crossing was the first baptism into the death of Christ....and it is like we are walking through His death as we walk through the wilderness, being broken and "dying" as He was. As soon as Jesus was baptized he was led/driven by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted and do battle with the source of temptation. If I'm seeing this aright. Hope I'm even explaining things well enough.....not feeling too sharp these days.

I understand you ok.

I think I agree with this sister. Dying to self is really just a term to refer to the dying of the old self, as in old man, carnal nature.

 

[Hepzibah]

Maybe it depends on whether we are talking about a specific "experience" or "event" or not? Coming to faith was an experience/event,

I believe it is speaking of the spiritual journey which has already been entered into.

and i believe, from what I'm gleaning at least, that entering that state of holiness we are talking about is also an experience or event....but being enlightened to know one's need of it is more of a process and gradual realization than an event per se?

The event is in my understanding, knowing that it has been done and there is nothing we can do in ourselves.

I have been wondering whether A. Murray had experienced that second blessing/ES or not. It sounds like not then, at the time he was writing those things..? Don't know if he has written any testimonies or whether he had tasted of being in the spirit at least.

Perhaps. Many at that time were teaching it. I cannot remember him giving a testimony.

I believe the scriptures say we are/were saved in the beginning, by faith.....that's the gospel. But we also have a walk to walk on the narrow path, a race to run, a journey to take. There is a "yes but not necessarily yet" to things. We have the "proving of our faith" to undergo in this life. If we should die when not yet perfected into the full stature of Christ, but have been paying the price and are on the narrow path following and serving Him the best we know how according to the light and measure of grace and growth we have hitherto received, fighting the good fight of faith and not living in gross sins and disobedience, well, I believe it's not really a bad thing for a believer if our flesh dies and carnal nature dies with it. Rewards will be according to what we did with what we had, as much or as little as we had. The gift is not reckoned according to what we don't have but only according to what we do have, at any given time....and the bar gets set higher as we grow and are given/gain more....like more is expected of children as they grow, compared to when they were younger. I'm quite sure the question of entire sanctification is a separate question from the question of salvation......it's not a black and white or carved in stone kind of thing. Otherwise grace would not be grace, seems to me.....it would just be payment of what is owing.

Maybe it depends on whether we are talking about a specific "experience" or "event" or not? Coming to faith was an experience/event, and i believe, from what I'm gleaning at least, that entering that state of holiness we are talking about is also an experience or event....but being enlightened to know one's need of it is more of a process and gradual realization than an event per se? I have been wondering whether A. Murray had experienced that second blessing/ES or not. It sounds like not then, at the time he was writing those things..? Don't know if he has written any testimonies or whether he had tasted of being in the spirit at least.


I believe the scriptures say we are/were saved in the beginning, by faith....

The early church believed it to occur at Spirit baptism.

.that's the gospel. But we also have a walk to walk on the narrow path, a race to run, a journey to take. There is a "yes but not necessarily yet" to things. We have the "proving of our faith" to undergo in this life. If we should die when not yet perfected into the full stature of Christ, but have been paying the price and are on the narrow path following and serving Him the best we know how according to the light and measure of grace and growth we have hitherto received, fighting the good fight of faith and not living in gross sins and disobedience, well, I believe it's not really a bad thing for a believer if our flesh dies and carnal nature dies with it. Rewards will be according to what we did with what we had, as much or as little as we had. The gift is not reckoned according to what we don't have but only according to what we do have, at any given time....and the bar gets set higher as we grow and are given/gain more....like more is expected of children as they grow, compared to when they were younger. I'm quite sure the question of entire sanctification is a separate question from the question of salvation......it's not a black and white or carved in stone kind of thing. Otherwise grace would not be grace, seems to me.....it would just be payment of what is owing.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth
Perhaps your views will change when you are in the blessing yourself. You are however certainly on the pathway there.

 

[Hepzibah]

Deification: The Lost Doctrine Of The Early Church

Yesterday I had a wonderful conversation with Father Kenneth Tanner. During our talk, he referenced a quote from Athanasius that got my wheels turning.

www.patheos.com

 

[Hepzibah]

Theosis and Our Salvation in Christ – Orthodox-Reformed Bridge

orthodoxbridge.com

 

[Hepzibah]

Transfiguration as an event in scripture:

Theosis is also found in the Gospel accounts of the Transfiguration where the transfigured Christ speaks to the Old Testament saints Moses and Elijah. In Luke’s account we read that Moses and Elijah “appeared in glorious splendor” and that they talked to Jesus about his impending death (9:31). What happened was that the glory that Jesus had with the Father before the world began (John 17:5) was made manifest to his followers. Jesus’ glory is intrinsic to his nature. This glory attests to Jesus’ divinity. Just as striking is the fact that Moses and Elijah were also clothed in glory. This point to their having been transfigured into glorified beings by God’s grace. 'Their conversing with Christ points to their having acquired divine wisdom as to God’s will. The contrast between the two Old Testament saints standing up and the three disciples on the ground sleeping shows the progressive nature of Christian discipleship. Right now we are bumbling, fumbling followers of Christ but one day we will reach the state of enlightenment like that of Moses and Elijah. Sainthood is not for the fortunate few but for all Christians. The Orthodox approach to spiritual pedagogy is old school; the bar is set high and those who attain perfection are given due recognition. Orthodox spirituality is not like modern education where you win the prize just for being there. The term “saint” has a real meaning in Orthodoxy when it comes to spiritual advancement.' (Orthodox Bridge)

Transfiguration as an event.

 

[Episkopos]

ok....so what is the point he is making here? Looks to me as though Peter was humbling those Jews who thought they were saved by the exclusivity of having the Law and Torah. Those from other nations who feared God and worked righteousness were just as accepted as Jews under the Law were who feared God and worked righteousness. I expect that such Gentiles were included in those who "without us would not be made perfect". It doesn't mean any of them, righteous Jews under the Law or righteous Gentiles apart from the Law, didn't still need the gospel for salvation and eternal life.

It doesn't say...those who feared Him and worked righteousness WERE accepted of Him...as if God no longer accepts those who work righteousness and fear Him. Don't filter the text through an already established bent.

Stay out of your own mind and stick to what the bible says....IF you want to understand the gospel.

I agree, in principle at least.

 

[Lizbeth]

It doesn't say...those who feared Him and worked righteousness WERE accepted of Him...as if God no longer accepts those who work righteousness and fear Him. Don't filter the text through an already established bent.

Stay out of your own mind and stick to what the bible says....IF you want to understand the gospel.

Yes, I didn't mean to relegate it entirely to the past. Does being accepted mean the same thing as being saved and having eternal life? People who live righteously without knowing Christ experience earthly blessings (as opposed to curses)....like those promised and given to Israel when they were obeying the Law, but that isn't the same as having the Holy Spirit and eternal life/salvation. Otherwise the gospel wouldn't have been needed by the Jews who knew the Law and lived according to it outwardly without receiving the Holy Spirit and without really knowing God through being reconciled to Him. The Law couldn't save them.....nobody's "own righteousness" can save them....isn't that what the scriptures teach......which I take to be some of the first principles of the faith.......which is why all need to receive Christ through faith and so be sanctified by His sacrifice. Lots of people are living decent lives, they are generous, hospitable, kind, honest, temperate etc, and may even have a nominal belief in God....but if they don't know Christ it only avails for this life, unless it attracts God to reveal the gospel to them, like Cornelius. (And in the past before the cross I think they would have been included with the faithful and righteous Jewish souls who "without us would not be made perfect." (A few examples of Gentiles in this category in the bible come to mind...Rahab, Ruth, Namaan the leper, the widow of Zarephath.) But now that Christ has been crucified/risen, they can receive the gospel in this life.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth
Perhaps your views will change when you are in the blessing yourself. You are however certainly on the pathway there.

Maybe. And I pray so sister. Thank you for all the links.

 

[Kokyu]

List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:

1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).​
2. Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).​
3. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)....​

This was interesting. To begin a response to all you've info-dumped here, let me quote the following:

1 John 1:7-10
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

And,

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

These passages put quite a serious crimp in the sinless perfection doctrine, it seems to me. In particular, the fact that John includes himself ("we," "us," "our") in his statements in the above quotations rules out any interpretation of his words as being about the unsaved. John also uses the present continuous tense ("we have," "we are," "we walk," "we are deceiving ourselves") which denies the idea that John was speaking of himself or fellow believers in a past condition. "If we say we have (present continuous - right now and going forward) no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." So, then, John wrote this about himself as an apostle of the Early Church and the greatest contributor to the writings of the NT. If such a man admitted to sin in his life and denied that any could say they had none in theirs, we ought to be extremely wary of the idea of sinless perfection.

 

[Kokyu]

Revelation 14:3-5 (NASB)
3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Aren't all those redeemed and thus "in Christ" blameless before God because they are clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ? Yes (1 Corinthians 1:30; Ga. 3:27). Anyway, verse 5 seems to indicate that the 144,000 were blameless concerning lying but this doesn't necessarily equate to practical sinless perfection.


Hebrews 11:4-5 (NASB)
4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

I see no mention of Enoch being sinlessly perfect in this quotation. It is his faith that is in view, not his being perfectly without sin.

Genesis 5:21-24 (NASB)
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah.
22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters.
23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

So... where's the bit about Enoch being sinlessly perfect?

Matthew 5:48 (NASB)
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Again, I don't see anything about anyone being sinlessly perfect. Jesus sets a standard of divine perfection for his audience but he neither prescribes a way to attain it, nor says that anyone can attain it. Jesus's whole sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 was about putting law-keeping as a means of reaching God utterly out of reach of his Jewish listeners. He had a "new and living way" (He. 10:19-22) he would inaugurate through himself at Calvary, free of the condemnation of the OT laws of ceremony and separation (Ro. 7:6; 8:1; Ga. 3:23-26).

I don't have time to say more right now, but, so far, your prooftexts for sinless perfection aren't doing the job of establishing it.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I didn't mean to relegate it entirely to the past. Does being accepted mean the same thing as being saved and having eternal life?

Only if these continue in righteousness and the fear of the Lord. Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance...unless it is for the higher walk by the Spirit.

People who live righteously without knowing Christ experience earthly blessings (as opposed to curses)....like those promised and given to Israel when they were obeying the Law, but that isn't the same as having the Holy Spirit and eternal life/salvation.

Actually the wicked enjoy temporal blessings too. But the wicked are not accepted with God. Don't confuse being saved now with an inheritance in a future kingdom.

Otherwise the gospel wouldn't have been needed by the Jews who knew the Law and lived according to it outwardly without receiving the Holy Spirit and without really knowing God through being reconciled to Him. The Law couldn't save them.....nobody's "own righteousness" can save them....isn't that what the scriptures teach......which I take to be some of the first principles of the faith.......which is why all need to receive Christ through faith and so be sanctified by His sacrifice. Lots of people are living decent lives, they are generous, hospitable, kind, honest, temperate etc, and may even have a nominal belief in God....but if they don't know Christ it only avails for this life, unless it attracts God to reveal the gospel to them, like Cornelius. (And in the past before the cross I think they would have been included with the faithful and righteous Jewish souls who "without us would not be made perfect." (A few examples of Gentiles in this category in the bible come to mind...Rahab, Ruth, Namaan the leper, the widow of Zarephath.) But now that Christ has been crucified/risen, they can receive the gospel in this life.

I think you are stuck on a religious notion of salvation as opposed to what God sees and states in the bible. The gospel in low resolution is calling sinners to repentance as GUESTS to the wedding feast. It is also an upward call for the elect to become the Bride. Jesus came for a Bride...which is the gospel in its full resolution. But all who call on the Lord will be saved.

 

[Hepzibah]

This was interesting. To begin a response to all you've info-dumped here, let me quote the following:

1 John 1:7-10
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

And,

1 John 2:1-2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

These passages put quite a serious crimp in the sinless perfection doctrine, it seems to me. In particular, the fact that John includes himself ("we," "us," "our") in his statements in the above quotations rules out any interpretation of his words as being about the unsaved. John also uses the present continuous tense ("we have," "we are," "we walk," "we are deceiving ourselves") which denies the idea that John was speaking of himself or fellow believers in a past condition. "If we say we have (present continuous - right now and going forward) no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." So, then, John wrote this about himself as an apostle of the Early Church and the greatest contributor to the writings of the NT. If such a man admitted to sin in his life and denied that any could say they had none in theirs, we ought to be extremely wary of the idea of sinless perfection.

I haven't much time today but will reply to this one, by saying that it is a frequently used device known as the 'royal we', made famous by Queen Victoria of England who said 'we are not amused'. 'The origin of this tradition is the idea that the monarch in question is speaking for the nation, although in times gone it was also used by religious officials speaking on behalf of the Church. (wiki)'

The 'info dump' is for those who requested it.

 

[Behold]

Seems to me from scripture that He is keeping us saved as long as we remain in Him.

How do you get "IN" Christ?

A.) "Born again"

How do you remain "IN" Christ".

AA.) "Born again"....

 

[Behold]

Only if these continue in righteousness and the fear of the Lord.

The Christian is "made righteouous'".. having received the "Gift of Righteousness"

So, that is how you become righteousn, and remain so..

The gospel in low resolution is calling sinners to repentance as GUESTS to the wedding feast.

Nonsense.

The Cross of Christ is calling "SINNERs" to come and be forgiven, as otherwise you will "die in your sins", Jesus teaches.

 

[Behold]

Don't forget that people dont' always have choices in how to spend their time.

Well, we all have a choice to do what we do........which is why we do it.

, I still remember how disillusioned and disappointed I felt coming to realize that "being in church" often has no bearing at all on people's true spiritual condition, sadly.)

Going to church and being water baptized, can't save you.

Many do both, and falsely believe that this is the way to heaven, along with trying to keep commandments.