Uncovering the Devil's Strategy

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Lizbeth

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Only if these continue in righteousness and the fear of the Lord. Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance...unless it is for the higher walk by the Spirit.


Actually the wicked enjoy temporal blessings too. But the wicked are not accepted with God. Don't confuse being saved now with an inheritance in a future kingdom.

I think you are stuck on a religious notion of salvation as opposed to what God sees and states in the bible. The gospel in low resolution is calling sinners to repentance as GUESTS to the wedding feast. It is also an upward call for the elect to become the Bride. Jesus came for a Bride...which is the gospel in its full resolution. But all who call on the Lord will be saved.
You do seem to have your own gospel going on there Epi. No-one is saved by their own righteousness. Even the faithful Jews of old counted worthy of eternal life had to have the gospel preached to them by Jesus when He descended into the place of the dead. Even righteous Cornelius had to receive the gospel and God sent Peter to him for that reason. Those who don't have the opportunity to hear the gospel preached in places where it is severely suppressed or absent, the Lord gives them (those who are appointed to salvation) dreams and visions of Christ to reveal Him to them. There is no salvation apart from Christ and the gospel and I don't think Jesus would or could even be able to die again to be able to return to the place of the dead to preach to souls there a second time.

Man's own righteousness is simply not pure/clean enough to save himself, and that is the very reason Jesus came and the reason there is no salvation apart from Him:

Isa 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.



Rom 9:30-32

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;



Rom 10:1-3

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.



Phl 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:




We need ears to hear what Jesus meant when He said He came not to call the righteous but sinners. He meant those who were righteous in their own eyes....those who are righteous in their own eyes generally can't hear the call...it is hid from them and revealed to little children, the humble.

Luk 18:9-14

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



Yes, for sure many wicked are glutted with excess material wealth and the power that goes with it...they are so corrupted by it. It's why scripture says better the little that the righteous have than to dwell in the tents of the wicked. But people who live decent honest lives in general (apart from the Lord) seem to have their lives going more smoothly in general, not necessarily be glutted with material wealth. But they don't belong to the Lord and so don't suffer His chastisements (because they are not sons), so that is another reason. We notice places like Africa and Haiti mired in witchcraft and idolatry are not blessed places, but unfortunately are under curses that bring many problems. The western world is beginning to come under curses too because of its sins.
 
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Lizbeth

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How do you get "IN" Christ?

A.) "Born again"

How do you remain "IN" Christ".

AA.) "Born again"....
Well brother to my understanding from scripture I would say we remain in Christ as we follow/obey Him after being born again rather than living life as we in our flesh might prefer....it's a life of "not my will but thine be done" in general, and even though most of us are not doing this perfectly, I believe He bears with us and longsuffers us in our spiritual childhood, not counting our shortfall against us in an eternal sense....as long as we are pursuing His kingdom and righteousness in sincerity and seeking and wanting to do and be better and are on the Way to a complete consecration....because that is what I've come to believe He is leading us to, as we follow Him on the narrow way, walking with Him through His death as it were. And we remain in Christ if we do not fall away after being born again. Which we should not take that threat too lightly....take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall.
 

Behold

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Well brother to my understanding from scripture I would say we remain in Christ as we follow/obey Him

You dont enter Christ by following Him or obeying Him.....as that is just a "disciple".

The way you get IN Christ......not following Him, but get IN Him.....is to be born again, "in Christ".......as "one with God".

Here is what it looks like to be 'IN" Christ...

The born again are "seated in heavely places.........IN Christ'...
 

Lizbeth

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You dont enter Christ by following Him or obeying Him.....as that is just a "disciple".

The way you get IN Christ......not following Him, but get IN Him.....is to be born again, "in Christ".......as "one with God".

Here is what it looks like to be 'IN" Christ...

The born again are "seated in heavely places.........IN Christ'...
 

Lizbeth

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You dont enter Christ by following Him or obeying Him.....as that is just a "disciple".

The way you get IN Christ......not following Him, but get IN Him.....is to be born again, "in Christ".......as "one with God".

Here is what it looks like to be 'IN" Christ...

The born again are "seated in heavely places.........IN Christ'...
I agree brother, I was only answering how we remain in Christ...forgot to answer your first question actually, sorry. Yes, we need to be born of the Spirit by faith not of our own, to be IN Him in the first place. And it's the earnest of the Spirit to begin with, which I think of as being like a seed which grows until we cross another divide (Jordan) into full consecration and start to consistently put forth fruit that is genuinely and entirely of the Spirit....bringing fruit to perfection.....walking in the full stature of Christ. Hard to believe we can do that....and that is why it takes faith, not in ourselves that's for sure, but in God, to enter into the land that is promised.
 

Kokyu

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I haven't much time today but will reply to this one, by saying that it is a frequently used device known as the 'royal we', made famous by Queen Victoria of England who said 'we are not amused'. 'The origin of this tradition is the idea that the monarch in question is speaking for the nation, although in times gone it was also used by religious officials speaking on behalf of the Church. (wiki)'

On what grounds from the text of the end of 1 John 1 do you make this assertion? What you've said in the quotation above appears to be entirely ad hoc, imposed upon the text in service to the sinless perfection doctrine.

1 John 1:5-10 (NASB)
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


Who's the "we" in this verse? Is John speaking "royally" here? No, he's referring to himself and the other apostles of the Early Church (see verses 1-4) who were establishing it, preaching the Gospel to the lost and teaching Christian doctrine to the saved.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

What is there in John's words here to justify asserting he was speaking in a "royal" manner? Nothing in the text of his words demands such a reading. It's certainly not a natural, straightforward way to understand what he wrote. And anyway, when the Queen uses "we" in the royal way, she isn't exempted from her statement as a consequence. No, "we" may generalize to whom she's referring, but she is herself included in the "we." So, even if you want to impose this odd construction upon John's words, it doesn't dissolve the fact that he was including himself in his remarks.

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

"We have fellowship with one another"
doesn't sound at all like the Queen speaking as a representative of the Crown. It seems very obvious here that John is making direct reference to himself and fellow believers in saying that both enjoy fellowship with one another. The phrase "one another" dissolves the generalizing "royal we" idea, particularizing John's statement, instead.

By the way, when does John say that God's cleansing and forgiveness are applied to the believer? Read verse 9. It's upon confession of our sin that God does this. And so, when John wrote what he did at the end of verse 7, he was indicating that confession OF SIN was a present and continuing ("cleanses us" is in the present-continuous tense) thing for Christians, which totally contradicts the sinless perfection doctrine.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.


Nothing could be more plain - and dire - in its denial of the sinless perfection doctrine. If Christians ("we") say they have no sin, they are self-deceived and devoid of the Truth. Full stop. This puts those who preach the sinless perfection doctrine in a very poor light, indeed!

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.


Not "if we have confessed our sins" (past tense) but "confess our sins" (present-continuous tense). And then a repeat of verse 8, basically. In all of this, I see no ground whatever for the sinless perfection doctrine. But not only is there no ground for it in John's words but a very grave warning about holding and disseminating such a doctrine.
 

Dash RipRock

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I believe the scriptures say we are/were saved in the beginning, by faith.....that's the gospel. But we also have a walk to walk on the narrow path, a race to run, a journey to take.

James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The phrase "faith without works is dead" means that simply believing in something is not enough; it must be accompanied by actions that reflect that belief. This concept emphasizes the importance of demonstrating one's faith through good deeds and actions.

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is faith in action!
 
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marks

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James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The phrase "faith without works is dead" means that simply believing in something is not enough; it must be accompanied by actions that reflect that belief. This concept emphasizes the importance of demonstrating one's faith through good deeds and actions.
The truth is simpler than that.

If you are changed, you will be different.

Belief that doesn't involve God regenerating you won't change you. When you believe and are regenerated, you are different.

Much love!
 

Dash RipRock

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When you believe and are regenerated, you are different.

Yes and some people believed, got regenerated and were changed.

Then, they turn away from the Lord and became sinners once again and were no longer saved anymore.

The eternal security crowd claims if a person did this they are still saved and it's all good.

Inspire of the fact the person actually did believe, was regenerated and was changed before falling away.
 
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marks

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Then, they turn away from the Lord and became sinners once again and were no longer saved anymore.
Actually, that doesn't happen. It it were to, there would be too many Scriptures made untrue. If even one were untrue, that would be sufficient. I daresay the only reason you choose to say this is that you don't actually believe the plain sayings of various Scriptures, because you believe they conflict with your understanding of other passages.

What I'm saying is, you've made up your mind that regeneration can be undone (can you unbirth yourself?). Any passage that says otherwise, that tells us that doesn't happen, I don't believe you accept what they specifically say, adding in qualifiers that don't appear in the text, such as, "if you don't fall away".

And example is 1 John 3:1-3, that tells us that those who are children of God now will be made to be like Jesus when they see Him. So if one reborn person is not made to be like Jesus when He appears, then that verse is untrue on it's face. There is no alternative meaning to these verses, the language is very simple, very plain, very clear.

1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

So the question for you is, Do you know this? Aren't you saying a person cannot know this? That's not Biblical. We can know, because it is knowable. And in fact, knowing this truth, that we will become like Him, because we won't be lost, is credited with our living more pure lives. So the question becomes more important, Do you know this?

Again, this is a clear and direct statement regarding our regenerated state. And there are more.

This passage will agree with all correct interpretations. I believe the correct way to understand the Bible is to use those passages with the most direct and clear statements to interpret other passages with more than one possible interpretation.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Yes and some people believed, got regenerated and were changed.

Then, they turn away from the Lord and became sinners once again and were no longer saved anymore.

The eternal security crowd claims if a person did this they are still saved and it's all good.

Inspire of the fact the person actually did believe, was regenerated and was changed before falling away.
I believe the Holy Spirit is far stronger than that. We don't put our confidence in ourselves, the flesh will always let you down! Putting your confidence in yourself, in what you do, what you think you can do, to keep yourself saved, is what Paul called "fallen from grace", no longer standing in grace.

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Galatians 5:1-5 KJV
1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

They began in faith, but then switched to "now I have to . . .", and left standing in faith, and fell from grace, becoming debtors to the law in their minds. And as we know the Law always condemns because no one fully keeps it, or has kept it. If you are relying on your own behavior, your own determination, you are already disqualified. That's why salvation is by faith in Jesus. Alone. True faith will have works, but works won't save, or keep you saved.

Galatians 3:2-3 KJV
2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Much love!
 
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Lizbeth

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James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The phrase "faith without works is dead" means that simply believing in something is not enough; it must be accompanied by actions that reflect that belief. This concept emphasizes the importance of demonstrating one's faith through good deeds and actions.

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

This is faith in action!
Amen. Works/fruit that accompany salvation. Our first work after believing in our heart is to confess with our mouth, which kind of seals the deal in a way.
 
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marks

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that is what I've come to believe He is leading us to, as we follow Him on the narrow way, walking with Him through His death as it were.
I believe this is exactly what Paul is saying here:

Philippians 3:8-12 KJV
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Much love!
 
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shepherdsword

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You do seem to have your own gospel going on there Epi. No-one is saved by their own righteousness. Even the faithful Jews of old counted worthy of eternal life had to have the gospel preached to them by Jesus when He descended into the place of the dead. Even righteous Cornelius had to receive the gospel and God sent Peter to him for that reason. Those who don't have the opportunity to hear the gospel preached in places where it is severely suppressed or absent, the Lord gives them (those who are appointed to salvation) dreams and visions of Christ to reveal Him to them. There is no salvation apart from Christ and the gospel and I don't think Jesus would or could even be able to die again to be able to return to the place of the dead to preach to souls there a second time.
Let's look at this verse:

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the Lord actually saying here? Is He saying that if He is not received in the correct doctrinal way then you miss the boat? Could He be saying "I am the way and it is "I" and "I" alone who decides who enters in? In the parable of the good samaritan it was the people with the correct doctrine that left the victim to bleed out on the Jericho road. It was that nasty old deceived samaritan with the false doctrine that actually lent a hand and thereby did the will of God. Just something to consider. John says this:

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Man's own righteousness is simply not pure/clean enough to save himself, and that is the very reason Jesus came and the reason there is no salvation apart from Him:
I think EPI is saying the same thing. He is just saying if you have the righteousness of God then it is actually manifested. It's not just a label sticker that rubberstamps bad deeds
 
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Lizbeth

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I believe this is exactly what Paul is saying here:

Philippians 3:8-12 KJV
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Much love!
Amen! And Abraham's vision of the clay vessel with fire in it passing through the pieces of the sacrifice. And also the allegory of the Temple.....seeing that there was a heavy veil to pass through in order to enter into the holy of holies (Christ our forerunner tore it in twain, that we could follow in His footsteps).
 

Episkopos

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You do seem to have your own gospel going on there Epi. No-one is saved by their own righteousness.

Haha. Why do you have to twist everything you read?

You have to think beyond religious slogans to understand the bible and what I write.

I never said that anyone is saved by their own righteousness. Before God NO FLESH is justified. It is God who justifies. Stop the strawmanning and obfuscating. Be honest.

If you refuse God's mercy on others you will surely lose any potential justification for yourself.

And by claiming God's righteousness for yourself you are doing far worse than claiming to be righteous yourself. Religious conditioning has made many to lose all common sense. No one can escape God's judgment who claim God's righteousness for themselves. Only severely indoctrinated people fall for that ruse.
Even the faithful Jews of old counted worthy of eternal life had to have the gospel preached to them by Jesus when He descended into the place of the dead. Even righteous Cornelius had to receive the gospel and God sent Peter to him for that reason.

This is false. Cornelius was a righteous man who was invited into the higher walk of the Spirit. But only those who have walk in Christ's power will understand this.
Those who don't have the opportunity to hear the gospel preached in places where it is severely suppressed or absent, the Lord gives them (those who are appointed to salvation) dreams and visions of Christ to reveal Him to them.

The Lord calls who He wishes. He draws sinner to repentance and seekers into holiness.
There is no salvation apart from Christ and the gospel and I don't think Jesus would or could even be able to die again to be able to return to the place of the dead to preach to souls there a second time.

You are reading this as a religious maxim...which bends the truth around your way of thinking...which is NOT renewed. Christ is the Saviour of all men...meaning no man comes to the Father (and His holiness) apart from Christ. Jesus purchased back His own creation from the devil. And God will have mercy on the righteous and the God-fearers...whatever their dogmatic understanding is.

With a few, God calls into Christ to walk in His power and put on holiness. When a saint does this he is wearing the righteousness of saints as he matures into Christ.
The rest of your comments are just religious vapourings that you are justifying yourself with. But such a superficial grasp of things has no power to save...quite the opposite.
 
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Episkopos

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This is what is going on in the hearts and heads of far too many in Protestantism. These think it nothing to claim God's righteousness for themselves while denying the words of the Bible that speak of the righteous. So they have a HUGE double sin. First denying what God has justified through imputation (human righteousness)...and then claiming for oneself (religious narcissism) as an invented imputation the very righteousness of God to themselves. As in...I'm not righteous (true) but I'm as righteous as God because the bible tells me that (false).

The bible does not say you can claim God's righteousness for yourself. This is a ploy of the devil to get you rejected.

What the bible ACTUALLY says is that God's imputes righteousness (human righteousness) to some either by faith or works. On a very few God covers with His righteousness by translating them into the higher walk in the Spirit...where there is no spot or wrinkle of sin.

Religious dogmatism makes a mockery of both standards. For this cause God is blasphemed in the world.
 
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Behold

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I agree brother, I was only answering how we remain in Christ...

One of the things that happens to most believers, is that soon after they start out with Total Trust and Faith in Christ.... they begin to believe that ......>"well, Jesus started my Salvation, but now i have to keep myself saved by......."

And then they grow this list of Do's and Don't Do's....that they must maintain, to keep themselves saved.
This is Legalism in place of Faith in Christ.
They have already forgotten that God saved them, when they were "ungodly" and "while we were YET Sinners".

So, now they have ripped Jesus off the Nails, and crucified themsevles with all their self effort to try to stay saved.

Paul calls this......>"Fallen from Grace', and "in the Flesh"

Another way to think about it is.........they are become a SELF Saver......... and that means their faith in Christ is gone., while they pretend to themselves they are Trusting In Christ while they try to keep themselves saved..
 

Lizbeth

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Let's look at this verse:

Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What is the Lord actually saying here? Is He saying that if He is not received in the correct doctrinal way then you miss the boat? Could He be saying "I am the way and it is "I" and "I" alone who decides who enters in?
To my understanding He is saying that it is by and through Him alone that we come to the Father and are reconciled to Him. Through faith in Jesus, and having Him, His Spirit...the spirit of adoption. Which all true believers have. At least the earnest of it. The bride price has been paid that we have entered into betrothal, which is as binding as marriage, they are pledged to each other and belong to each other (so much so that a decree of divorce was required to break that covenant).....the union just has not been consummated yet, but the promise of it is yes and amen. The groom has gone away to prepare a place for the bride and await the Father's permission to go fetch her. The bride is in a state of preparation....undergoing the purifying trials and tribs and chastisements and putting on the wedding attire.....that we might partake of His holiness ("if we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him"). That's what the Jewish preparation day was depicting.....the day prior to the sabbath which is an allegory/shadow of entering the rest of God.

In the parable of the good samaritan it was the people with the correct doctrine that left the victim to bleed out on the Jericho road. It was that nasty old deceived samaritan with the false doctrine that actually lent a hand and thereby did the will of God. Just something to consider. John says this:

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Showing forth the fruits of salvation and repentance. And true believers do have fruits of a changed life and righteousness, but just not fruit brought to perfection yet, until it is. Actually the Pharisees and religious leaders didn't really have correct doctrine because they were missing the meaning of it all and what and who it was pointing the way to. By this parable Jesus was showing how they were missing the point. So I certainly agree that "knowing doctrine" isn't the point in itself, but a means to it. True doctrine is the lamp unto our feet and light unto our path, which lights and points the way in which we should go and helps to purify our way...the washing of our feet with it....washing of the water of the word. And watering the precious seed that was planted in us.

And it's so important to be growing...where there is growth there is life. The children of Israel did not camp on the shore of the Red Sea rejoicing in their laurels for long, but they were told to FOLLOW the Lord and keep moving onward, with the goal in mind, of entering and possessing what had been promised. Cloud and fire are symbols of storms and darkness and suffering.....chastisements we undergo as sons. Those who don't keep moving on and growing, and paying the price to do so, I believe are in danger of being left with a dead religion. Jesus keeps us moving on and we need to move on with Him and follow, otherwise would be in danger of being left behind where He is not, so to speak...there is no life without Him.

I think EPI is saying the same thing. He is just saying if you have the righteousness of God then it is actually manifested. It's not just a label sticker that rubberstamps bad deeds
Epi believes people can be saved by their own righteousness. If that were true, we wouldn't need the gospel, and missionaries beginning with Jesus and the apostles lay their lives down for no reason. The gospel is needed precisely because man's own righteousness can't save him (salvation meaning to escape the wrath of God and inherit eternal life).

God is not mocked and Jesus is not the minister of sin.....it's not a sign of sincerity if any are rubberstamping bad deeds, I agree. That is abusing grace and using it as a license to sin. True believers do have the righteousness of God, in infant/seed form in the beginning. And it does manifest in those who love the Lord. But it is not yet fruit brought to perfection until it is, and that's why we need to keep growing and following the Lord. As I understand the scriptures and its lovely, simple word pictures. Draw me a picture Lord, lol. He does, thankfully.