Understanding the Law vs. Grace

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Randy Kluth

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I was raised in Lutheran Doctrine, in which Luther placed Law and Grace in opposite camps. This left me wondering, "How can the Scriptures speak so glowingly of the Law, while at the same time Paul spoke with such hostility about the same thing?" Even Paul seemed to praise and curse the very same Law at the same time!

Rom 7.12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
Gal 3.10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”


It seems apparent to me that Paul is describing what the Law was meant to be, a just judgment from God presenting a dilemma for sinful mankind. God pursues our obedience to His ways, while at the same time condemning us as failed human beings. How can God present to us a system that condemns us for all eternity, while at the same presenting to us a picture of His grace and love?

The simple answer is that God didn't quite do that. He did that only to produce an understanding of how He intended to resolve this dilemma. He would not recant His perfect standard of obedience to righteousness. But at the same time He would forgive man if he was willing to return to the standard of obedience God requires.

And that does not require sinlessness. It only requires adoption of God's standard of righteousness, which is dependent on Him, or on "faith," rather than on our own independent abilities and choices.

I think it is important here to understand what biblical "faith" really means, as opposed to how it is often portrayed. We are sometimes confused by how Paul, or the Bible, portrays things, and need to understand how they defined their words.

Biblical "faith" is not a simple believing in Christ for our forgiveness alone. Rather, it is acceptance of Christ's standard of forgiveness, which requires we adopt his system of righteousness, which comes through him, or through his Spirit dispensed at his will, rather than at our own independently-conceived will.

It is embracing a system of righteousness that he has displayed as coming through grace and forgiveness, and not by perfect obedience to his righteous standard. We accept him as our righteous standard, while at the same time embracing the idea of forgiveness of sin.

So leaving the system of Law was not a "Get Out Of Jail Free card" for those who wished to be forgiven apart from a standard of righteousness suggested by the Law. Rather, it was simply a call to return to righteous standards when it became clear that we regularly fail in a variety of ways.

The Law can be reduced to a simple example. In the garden of Eden Man chose to disobey God's law to choose to live by a knowledge apart form His own righteousness. Man wished to establish his own righteousness apart from the help of God's word.

The Law of Moses was intended to amplify this one central truth, that living apart from God's word is the same as choosing the tree of knowledge. And it cannot lead to true righteousness, nor can it result in fellowship with God.

This is, in a nutshell, what the Law was given to Israel to show, that we must live by faith, ie in conjunction with, or in partnership with, God in order to produce the true fruits of righteousness. Otherwise, we will be imitating God without true righteousness, or apart from God's word, the source of true righteousness. And we will find ourselves distant from God and producing evil.

John 15.4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

As such, the Law is not a bad system, but not intended to be a testimony we would wish to live under in perpetuity. It only illustrated the dilemma, and not the resolution. Living under it only showed that we need God, but cannot sustain that relationship indefinitely apart from God's act of Grace in providing Christ on a perennial basis. He brought righteousness that could not be cut off by our sins, as long as we are willing to repent in his name, ie in the name Christ, who owns the only way to the Tree of Life.
 

Behold

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Biblical "faith" is not a simple believing in Christ for our forgiveness alone. Rather, it is acceptance of Christ's standard of forgiveness, which requires we adopt his system of righteousness,

You're teaching Legalism, which is SELF righteousness.

God does not save a sinner, who is "yet a Sinner", based on you agreeing to Adopt righteous behavior, if He will save you.

Salvation is not "If you commit to do this, then God does will have you".

So, to turn the Cross of Christ into a self effort agreement regarding behavior, instead of agreeing with the Cross that its "the GIFT of Salvation", is to teach some serious Cross denying doctrine.
 
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Behold

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Biblical "faith" is not a simple believing in Christ for our forgiveness alone

You just denied the Cross of Christ and the blood of Jesus.
Listen,
New Testament faith is exactly "Believing in Jesus " by Faith, so that God does this..."Faith is counted as Righteousness."" "justification by faith", "Grace through Faith" and ""not of works"".

What you are teaching is this..

Galatians 1:8
-Galatians 1:8 — The New International Version (NIV)
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Galatians 1:8 — King James Version (KJV 1900)

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:8 — New Living Translation (NLT)

8 Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you.

Galatians 1:8 — The New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:8 — New Century Version (NCV)

8 We preached to you the Good News. So if we ourselves, or even an angel from heaven, should preach to you something different, we should be judged guilty!

Galatians 1:8 — American Standard Version (ASV)

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.

Galatians 1:8 — 1890 Darby Bible (DARBY)

8 But if even we or an angel out of heaven announce as glad tidings to you anything besides what we have announced as glad tidings to you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:8 — GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

8 Whoever tells you good news that is different from the Good News we gave you should be condemned to hell, even if he is one of us or an angel from heaven.

Galatians 1:8 — The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him!

Galatians 1:8 — The New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed!

Galatians 1:8 — The Lexham English Bible (LEB)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!
 

Randy Kluth

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You're teaching Legalism, which is SELF righteousness.

God does not save a sinner, who is "yet a Sinner", based on you agreeing to Adopt righteous behavior, if He will save you.

Salvation is not "If you commit to do this, then God does will have you".

So, to turn the Cross of Christ into a self effort agreement regarding behavior, instead of agreeing with the Cross that its "the GIFT of Salvation", is to teach some serious Cross denying doctrine.
The way you describe what I shared indicates you don't understand what I meant. I would also reject what I said if I thought I was teaching "self-effort."

In fact I was saying just the opposite, that the Tree of Knowledge is Self-Effort, or living apart from the word of God. On the other hand, Christ came to bring us a way to the Tree of Life, by returning to a true standard of righteousness, which is the opposite of Self-effort.

If you are teaching that Man can be saved apart from repentance, then it is you who are teaching Legalism. And I don't think you wish to do that?

True repentance is not just saying, "I'm sorry," nor is it claiming that you embrace Grace as a system of repentance. Words are cheap.

Rather, true repentance is, as I said, embracing God's standard of repentance, which is turning back to a God-dependent way of righteousness. And this is the only true way of righteousness, ie living by dependence on God and on His word.

But the beautiful thing about Grace is what I think you wish to aim towards, which is that it provides us with a righteousness that cannot be cut off by our own moral failures. We have access to Christ's righteousness as long as we return to his system of righteousness, which is the only system of righteousness. And this is *God-dependence.* I hope you can understand what I'm saying now?
 

Behold

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The way you describe what I shared indicates you don't understand what I meant.


Your own words "prove" what you meant as your anti-Cross Grace Denying Teaching is SHOUTING against the Cross, fella.


Randy Kluth said:
Biblical "faith" is not a simple believing in Christ for our forgiveness alone

Randy Kluth said:
Biblical "faith" is not a simple believing in Christ for our forgiveness alone

Randy Kluth said:
Biblical "faith" is not a simple believing in Christ for our forgiveness alone
 

Behold

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If you are teaching that Man can be saved apart from repentance,

You are not teaching repentance from Unbelief to FAITH in CHRIST.
You are teaching "adopt Righteousness" that is of the LAW.... as a behavior to execute, and THEN God will save you as your idea of Salvation.

So, that is exactly the opposite of FAITH, as Faith BELIEVES that GOD ALONE is the provider of Salvation based on Jesus, as "the GIFT of Salvation".

Its "law keeping" that you are combining unto the Cross as your Hybrid Salvation, that Denies The Cross., as you are adding works fo the LAW to the Cross. And that is LEGALISM.

In your quote below you state that Salvation's end goal is to return us to "righteous standards", suggested by the Law"
And that concept is.....>"we are saved to now go and fulfill the law"...

And that is Cross denying, .
Why?

"because Christ is the END of the Law for Righteousness"

The born again "are not under the LAW, but under Grace'

"The LAW is the power of sin and the power of sin is the LAW"

"Christ came to redeem us from the CURSE OF THE LAW"""..

-
Randy Kluth wrote

"So leaving the system of Law was not a "Get Out Of Jail Free card" for those who wished to be forgiven apart from a standard of righteousness suggested by the Law. """
 
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Randy Kluth

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When we repent in Christ's name and come back to Christ, we do not merely come back to a *Doctrine.* Rather, we come back to both a Person and a System. The Person represents the System.

Coming back to Christ indicates we can, as sinners, return to righteousness, even after our moral failures cut us off from God's righteousness. The Law taught this, that our sins cut us off from God and His righteousness.

But when we come back to God's righteousness, we come back to *His System* of righteousness, which is the opposite of Self-effort. God's system of righteousness we call "Faith," but we must understand how that System works.

Faith, as a System, requires that we live by God's word, and return to living by His word. Otherwise, we are not coming back to Christ at all, nor are we truly repenting. The Doctrine does not save us. Repentance does.
 

Randy Kluth

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Behold, if in your hostility to me you try to establish a righteousness apart from repentance, then you are cutting yourself off from Christ, and you will inevitably display acts of hostility and hatred. The only way to produce true love is by dependance on God, which is the biblical definition of "Faith."

Try as you might, Doctrine will not save you. It is only through a living relationship with Christ, by recognition of His word to your heart, that you will feel forgiven. Forgiveness requires that you repent and return to a true relationship with Christ.

Your doctrine won't do that. Faith will, if you rightly perceive it as a System of dependence on Christ.
 

Behold

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Faith, as a System, requires that we live by God's word, and return to living by His word. Otherwise, we are not coming back to Christ at all, nor are we truly repenting. The Doctrine does not save us. Repentance does.

Repentance is not the Savior.
Faith is not the Savior.

WE DO THOSE< and WE ARE NOT THE SAVIOR.

GOD is the Savior.
Christ is the means.. and the Cross of Christ is the Divine Exchange where Christ is taking our sin and God is giving us "the GIFT of Righteousness".

So, we Give God our Faith, and HE accepts it to SAVE US through our faith..........ONE TIME., and the proof this has happened is that we are "BORN AGAIN".

Being born again is the ONLY PROOF you are saved, Randy Kluth.

The rest of it...the deeds the works , and all the rest of the "Christian" "fruit", can be faked in front of other people.
Churches, Pulpits, and Forums are filled with this FAKE JUNK

But being Born again, is a BIRTH in the SPIRIT, and that is God caused, and God kept.

Philippians 1:6
 

Behold

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Behold, if in your hostility to me you try to establish a righteousness apart from repentance,

"Hostility toward you" is in your mind, not in mine.

What i hate is Cross Denying theology, that pretends to be "of God", and true "Soteriology".
Its not.

And as i just told you.........the only "repentance" that God is looking for is "BELIEF IN CHRIST", that He defines as FAITH.

What is that?
That is turning from UNBELIEF...........repenting from your UNBELIEF< to FAITH in Christ.

= THAT, is the only repentance that God accepts., and God does not save you, so that you can run back to the law of Moses that is what defined you as a SINNER, needed to be forgiven.

See the law came by moses, but """""""GRACE AND TRUTH came by JESUS The Christ.""""""

You dont go back to moses, from God's Grace, once it has been given to you.
The born again are not to turn back to the old testament covenant after the NEW TESTAMENT Covenant is why we are "one with God", "in Christ"......

God does not save anyone so that they can go back to the LAW., as that is the devil's Gospel who would have you right back under the Law after "the born again are not UNDER THE LAW, but under GRACE". "because Christ is the END OF THE LAW, for RIGHTEOUSNESS".

God saves us so that we can do this.... = "present your body a living SACRIFICE to God"....

See that? That is not Law Keeping.

Do you not understand that there is no MOSES Law, or 10 Commandments In HEAVEN?
Does God need them?
The Law, and all of this is given so that we turn to the CROSS for God's Salvation FROM the LAW that is a curse to us,...= that is what defined us as a SINNER., Randy KLuth.

As Paul said...>" i had not know SIN but by the LAW".....

That is not a blessing, that is "the curse of the LAW".

"Christ came to REDEEM US .....From THE Curse OF.... THE LAW"...
 
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Randy Kluth

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Repentance is not the Savior.
Faith is not the Savior.

WE DO THOSE< and WE ARE NOT THE SAVIOR.

GOD is the Savior.
Christ is the means.. and the Cross of Christ is the Divine Exchange where Christ is taking our sin and God is giving us "the GIFT of Righteousness".
You are redefining Salvation. You are trying to exclude genuine repentance. If you don't repent, you won't be saved. You are in this denying the Bible.
So, we Give God our Faith, and HE accepts it to SAVE US through our faith..........ONE TIME., and the proof this has happened is that we are "BORN AGAIN".
No, repentance is not "one time." Repentance is life long. The 1st time we accept salvation we are accepting a life of dependance upon the Lord and His word. The minute we stop doing that we need to repent again. We do not have to receive salvation again. But we do have to repent again. Any time we sin we need to repent. To say otherwise is unbiblical and wrong!
Being born again is the ONLY PROOF you are saved, Randy Kluth.

The rest of it...the deeds the works , and all the rest of the "Christian" "fruit", can be faked in front of other people.
Churches, Pulpits, and Forums are filled with this FAKE JUNK

But being Born again, is a BIRTH in the SPIRIT, and that is God caused, and God kept.

Philippians 1:6
Yes, I believe we must be Born Again. But we must understand what this means for our whole life, and not just for the instant that we first received it.

When we first received salvation we received the truth that we must depend upon the Lord for our righteousness. We cannot produce His love apart from Him. It is a free gift, but it still must be lived in dependence upon Him, as He reveals it in our souls.

Once we've received that salvation, we've received the proposition that this entails, that we live in dependence upon His love within. To accept the proposition and then to stop living that way is the opposite of what salvation means.
 

Behold

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You are redefining Salvation. You are trying to exclude genuine repentance.

The Cross of Christ is How God defines : Salvation.

Its not how you are defining it so far in your Thread or in your posts.
I dont see that changing.

Listen...

JESUS is Salvation

How do you know? """Because Jesus said that no person comes to the Father but by Him"".

John 14:6

And that is : THE CROSS OF CHRIST


To RECEIVE Jesus, who Himself IS SALVATION< is how you are saved....= By God.

How do you receive HIM, who is our SALVATION and our ETERNAL LIFE?
You turn from your unbelief , you REPENT of your UNBELIEF, and Give God your FAITH in Christ.
That is the true and only repentance that God requires or accepts to give you "the GIFT of Salvation".

= ""'faith is counted as Righteousness", and the born again are "justified by faith". without works or the deeds of the Law.

= BORN AGAIN.

Jesus said...>"you must be born again"......if you want to go to Heaven.

And now having Salvation, (born again)... having Eternal Life, and on your way to heaven (born again)...., you do this.....till you die......because you have been saved, already.

A.) = "Present your body a living sacrifice to God" every single moment.

You do this, being BORN AGAIN...... You do this BECAUSE you are saved already,... and never to try to be saved or to stay saved.
 
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Randy Kluth

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"Hostility toward you" is in your mind, not in mine.
That remains to be proved. You cannot produce God's love apart from him, apart from dependence upon Him. And that is my point entirely!
What i hate is Cross Denying theology, that pretends to be "of God", and true "Soteriology".
Its not.
If you have "hate" at all, it isn't of God. You are arguing doctrine, and not God's love. Christian Theology is not separate from Christ's love. Salvation was intended to bring us to God's love, and to keep us there. If you think you can display God's love by a single act of Salvation years ago when you first received Christ, you're delusional. You are *always* dependent upon Christ for his love. You received it years ago, and you must continue to receive it today through his word.
And as i just told you.........the only "repentance" that God is looking for is "BELIEF IN CHRIST", that He defines as FAITH.

What is that?
That is turning from UNBELIEF...........repenting from your UNBELIEF< to FAITH in Christ.
Unbelief is a rejection of God's word to your heart, not just disbelief in God's existence!
= THAT, is the only repentance that God accepts., and God does not save you, so that you can run back to the law of Moses that is what defined you as a SINNER, needed to be forgiven.

See the law came by moses, but """""""GRACE AND TRUTH came by JESUS The Christ.""""""
Yes, this is the subject I was discussing--not repeating the same in rote fashion. You have to understand what you're teaching. It's not just teaching, but spiritual life in your soul.
You dont go back to moses, from God's Grace, once it has been given to you.
The born again are not to turn back to the old testament covenant after the NEW TESTAMENT Covenant is why we are "one with God", "in Christ"......

God does not save anyone so that they can go back to the LAW., as that is the devil's Gospel who would have you right back under the Law after "the born again are not UNDER THE LAW, but under GRACE". "because Christ is the END OF THE LAW, for RIGHTEOUSNESS".

God saves us so that we can do this.... = "present your body a living SACRIFICE to God"....

See that? That is not Law Keeping.
I didn't say it was--you did. You called my sense of "sacrifice to God" "Legalism!"

You have to understand what it means to say "Christ is the end of the Law." It does not mean "Christ is the end of righteousness."

Paul was speaking, in context, about the Law as a perennial system, as opposed to an eternal system. The Law could not, apart form Christ's sacrifice, bring righteousness to us on an eternal basis. It was merely a temporary preservation of Israel, by faith in God's word, until Christ came and made restitution by his blood.

So yes, the Law as a system is over and done with. The temporary has passed into the eternal. But this does not mean that Grace has abandoned what the Law pointed to as righteousness. It pointed to Christ as an eternal righteousness, as opposed to the temporal righteousness that the Law brought Israel.

Don't quote Scriptures to me in rote fashion. You're just teaching Doctrine. Share what the Scriptures mean, and we can have a meaningful dialogue.
 

Behold

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That remains to be proved.
If you have "hate" at all, it isn't of God.
You have to understand what it means to say "Christ is the end of the Law." It does not mean "Christ is the end of righteousness."

It remains for you to prove i have hostility toward you.
It can't be done.

And you are not understanding that the Law isn't "righteousness".
All the Law does is define what ISNT Righteousness, by defining it as "sin".

Righteousness : Is God and Christ.

"being made righteous" is to become a : CHRISTian., because this person has received God's "GIFT of Righteousness" that is to become "the Righteousness of God in Christ".

No law found there.
Zero.
 

Eternally Grateful

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The law = I must be perfect if I want to get to heaven

grace = i failed to keep the law (as required) hence must be saved and someone else will have to pay my debt.

They are opposite sides of each other. One is supposed to expose we are sinners. So we can be led to Christ the other way
 

Behold

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The law = I must be perfect if I want to get to heaven

grace = i failed to keep the law (as required) hence must be saved and someone else will have to pay my debt.

They are opposite sides of each other. One is supposed to expose we are sinners. So we can be led to Christ the other way

Absolutely.

The LAW is what shows us why we need to go to the CROSS of CHRIST, so that GOD can give us : SALVATION.

If the Law and Commandments and works and water could be our salvation, then Christ didn't have to die on the Cross for us.

= HE DID.
 

gadar

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I was raised in Lutheran Doctrine, in which Luther placed Law and Grace in opposite camps. This left me wondering, "How can the Scriptures speak so glowingly of the Law, while at the same time Paul spoke with such hostility about the same thing?" Even Paul seemed to praise and curse the very same Law at the same time!

Rom 7.12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
Gal 3.10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”


It seems apparent to me that Paul is describing what the Law was meant to be, a just judgment from God presenting a dilemma for sinful mankind. God pursues our obedience to His ways, while at the same time condemning us as failed human beings. How can God present to us a system that condemns us for all eternity, while at the same presenting to us a picture of His grace and love?

The simple answer is that God didn't quite do that. He did that only to produce an understanding of how He intended to resolve this dilemma. He would not recant His perfect standard of obedience to righteousness. But at the same time He would forgive man if he was willing to return to the standard of obedience God requires.

And that does not require sinlessness. It only requires adoption of God's standard of righteousness, which is dependent on Him, or on "faith," rather than on our own independent abilities and choices.

I think it is important here to understand what biblical "faith" really means, as opposed to how it is often portrayed. We are sometimes confused by how Paul, or the Bible, portrays things, and need to understand how they defined their words.

Biblical "faith" is not a simple believing in Christ for our forgiveness alone. Rather, it is acceptance of Christ's standard of forgiveness, which requires we adopt his system of righteousness, which comes through him, or through his Spirit dispensed at his will, rather than at our own independently-conceived will.

It is embracing a system of righteousness that he has displayed as coming through grace and forgiveness, and not by perfect obedience to his righteous standard. We accept him as our righteous standard, while at the same time embracing the idea of forgiveness of sin.

So leaving the system of Law was not a "Get Out Of Jail Free card" for those who wished to be forgiven apart from a standard of righteousness suggested by the Law. Rather, it was simply a call to return to righteous standards when it became clear that we regularly fail in a variety of ways.

The Law can be reduced to a simple example. In the garden of Eden Man chose to disobey God's law to choose to live by a knowledge apart form His own righteousness. Man wished to establish his own righteousness apart from the help of God's word.

The Law of Moses was intended to amplify this one central truth, that living apart from God's word is the same as choosing the tree of knowledge. And it cannot lead to true righteousness, nor can it result in fellowship with God.

This is, in a nutshell, what the Law was given to Israel to show, that we must live by faith, ie in conjunction with, or in partnership with, God in order to produce the true fruits of righteousness. Otherwise, we will be imitating God without true righteousness, or apart from God's word, the source of true righteousness. And we will find ourselves distant from God and producing evil.

John 15.4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

As such, the Law is not a bad system, but not intended to be a testimony we would wish to live under in perpetuity. It only illustrated the dilemma, and not the resolution. Living under it only showed that we need God, but cannot sustain that relationship indefinitely apart from God's act of Grace in providing Christ on a perennial basis. He brought righteousness that could not be cut off by our sins, as long as we are willing to repent in his name, ie in the name Christ, who owns the only way to the Tree of Life.
Law and grace are not opposed to each other but instead, complement each other, not contradict each other. This requires that we use the biblical definitions of the terms law and grace in order to better understand and get to the root of the issue you've brought up.

The word "law" is from the Greek "nomos" (Strong's Gr. #3551) and lawlessness is the word "anomia" (Strong's Gr. #458). 458anomía (from 1/A "not" and 3551/nómos, "law") – properly, without law;

The law (nomos) that's referred to is the Pentateuch, Law of Moses, Written Law, or Torah. The church in general is in a state of lawlessness because we've been taught to disregard the OT Law at worst or to minimize it at best. That's because we've been told that in the NT, it's all about faith and grace and no longer about the Law. That's not totally true. In Matt 5:17-18, Jesus himself stated that he didn't come to abolish the Law or the Prophets but instead to fulfill them and that every single aspect of the Law will not disappear until heaven and earth pass away. The last time I checked, heaven and earth are still here so the Law is still in existence. Torah simply means "instruction/teaching." Grace was given not to disregard God's instruction but to enable us to obey it.
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

The Law, in and of itself. saves no one as only faith in Christ saves but the Law is our tutor (Gal 3:24) to teach us what sin is and to point us to faith in Christ. Sin is biblically defined as "transgression of the Law" per 1 Jn 3:4 (KJV). That is why Paul wrote in Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. And in Rom 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. If the Law no longer exists and no longer applies, then there is no longer any standard as to what God defines as sin, resulting in no need for anyone to repent of sin, and ultimately no need for a Savior.

Thus, Law, faith, and grace when properly observed, work together to bring the unsaved to Christ and accompany those who are saved toward sanctification.
 
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Behold

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If the Law no longer exists and no longer applies, then there is no longer any standard as to what God defines as sin, resulting in no need for anyone to repent of sin, and ultimately no need for a Savior.

The Law indeed exists.

Its here all the time defining unbelievers as SINNERS, needing to be forgiven.
That is the reason its Here. Its to lead them to GOD's Salvation.
And once a person is born again, the Law cannot define you, as the born again are "not under the law, but under Grace".

"not under the LAW".

See that?
That is the reality that the Grace of God creates for the Born again who have become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

"Christ has redeemed us (the born again) from the CURSE of the Law".....The born again are FREED from the Law's dominion that allows the Law to define you as a sinner.
The Law absolutely can define an unbeliever as a sinner, but because the born are "NOT UNDER THE LAW, but UNDER GRACE" it has no capacity, or power, or dominion to define us ever again,.... because the born are "redeemed from the Curse of the law">

Why? and How ?
Because The Born again exist "IN CHRIST", and there is no law there, there is only Righteousness.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Law and grace are not opposed to each other but instead, complement each other, not contradict each other. This requires that we use the biblical definitions of the terms law and grace in order to better understand and get to the root of the issue you've brought up.

The word "law" is from the Greek "nomos" (Strong's Gr. #3551) and lawlessness is the word "anomia" (Strong's Gr. #458). 458anomía (from 1/A "not" and 3551/nómos, "law") – properly, without law;

The law (nomos) that's referred to is the Pentateuch, Law of Moses, Written Law, or Torah. The church in general is in a state of lawlessness because we've been taught to disregard the OT Law at worst or to minimize it at best. That's because we've been told that in the NT, it's all about faith and grace and no longer about the Law. That's not totally true. In Matt 5:17-18, Jesus himself stated that he didn't come to abolish the Law or the Prophets but instead to fulfill them and that every single aspect of the Law will not disappear until heaven and earth pass away. The last time I checked, heaven and earth are still here so the Law is still in existence. Torah simply means "instruction/teaching." Grace was given not to disregard God's instruction but to enable us to obey it.
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

The Law, in and of itself. saves no one as only faith in Christ saves but the Law is our tutor (Gal 3:24) to teach us what sin is and to point us to faith in Christ. Sin is biblically defined as "transgression of the Law" per 1 Jn 3:4 (KJV). That is why Paul wrote in Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. And in Rom 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. If the Law no longer exists and no longer applies, then there is no longer any standard as to what God defines as sin, resulting in no need for anyone to repent of sin, and ultimately no need for a Savior.

Thus, Law, faith, and grace when properly observed, work together to bring the unsaved to Christ and accompany those who are saved toward sanctification.
How nice! Thanks! :)
I might add that Jesus said those who diminish the Law will be diminished and those who hold the Law up will be exalted. Nobody is calling for re-enslavement to the Law as a system of justification, nor could it have ever justified anybody for very long. Rather, we are declaring the righteousness of God as an eternal reality and as something we adhere to, as a bride makes an oath of fidelity to her husband. It is God's love. We should *never* depreciate that!
 
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Randy Kluth

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It remains for you to prove i have hostility toward you.
It can't be done.
I have no need to prove to you that you have hate. The Law says we all have it. By grace we can enter into the righteousness of God, which is genuine love. Without Christ you fall into hatred. I already know you cannot have love apart from Christ. I have absolutely no need to prove that.

You think that is justification by Law? No, you said that--not me! You're saying that's what I'm saying or meaning. Yet I would deny that. That is simply what it means by having faith. It means we sacrifice our flesh to serve God alone. It means we live in dependence upon God. Without Him we are nothing.
And you are not understanding that the Law isn't "righteousness".
All the Law does is define what ISNT Righteousness, by defining it as "sin".
The Law is in fact righteousness. And it is also evidence that we cannot adhere to it perfectly. One sin and we lose it. One sin and we become sinners by nature. Adam sinned, and he became a sinner by nature. And all of his descendants then were born in sin.

But to say the Law is not righteousness isn't correct unless you mean that it cannot declare us as spotless and perfect. Its job was to confirm what was known since the Fall, that we were born in sin and can never be sinless as long as we live in this fallen flesh.

But the Law is a picture of Christ who is perfect. And we are called to him as our model so that we don't just sit back and admire him and his righteousness. Rather, we are to convert to be like him if we want to be saved. To be saved we must become *like him,* or we have not truly been born from heaven.

Have you never read and understood 1 John 2?
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

This is not salvation by the Law as a system. But Grace is a system by which we live lawfully. Grace enables us to be restored to God in perpetuity whenever we Fall. We no longer have to rely temporarily on animal sacrifices under the system of Law. But we can now rely on Christ, whose priesthood has eternal value with respect to covering our sins.

We may *always* return to God and to His righteousness simply because we have chosen to adhere to the system of Grace in which we live in dependence upon Him for our righteousness. Do you not understand that our dependence upon Christ for our righteousness is essential to our Salvation? Do you reject the biblical requirement that we "repent" to be saved?