Understanding the Law vs. Grace

[Behold]

Reader,

What you'll notice about people who always want to talk about sin and the LAW, is that this is "Moses's Law".
(mitzvot in Hebrew)

There are 613 of them, and every "christian" who is trying to replace the Cross with the Law, or they are trying to Tie the Cross to Moses's Law, could not name 100 of the laws. Now even 40, or 30.

Yet.."i keep the law, God requires it"....and they dont even know 30 of the 613.
These fakirs could not name all 10 commandments if they had to do it to survive.

So, this is just one more game playing, fake nonsense, .. its just .religious people who are trying to present themselves as "spiritual" and in fact they are just NT ignorant, and carnally minded.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think Jeremiah 31:33 gives some insight. (Didn't I already mention that?):

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33 RSV

In our daily walk with the Lord, at a time of his choosing, he teaches us his (Devine) Law/Commandments. It takes time, as he wants us to understand the (Devine) Law/Commandments.

Don't you realize that you regularly avoid discriminating between the Law as a set of moral requirements and the Law as a system, or covenant? When you refer to it, via Jer 31, as a "covenant," you are identifying it ambiguously, and not specifying what you mean.

Are you saying the covenant of Mosaic Law is being played out within our heart, or are you saying that God's moral values are being played out in our heart *apart from* the Law of Moses? Explaining this would go a long way towards ending this conversation in a satisfactory way!

For example, someone in the OT era might say that the Law of Moses is being played out in his heart, as he continues to follow all 613 requirements, observing temple, priestly, and sacrificial laws. But Most Christians today would admit that the value of the Law is largely *testimonial,* and not applicable as a covenant any longer. The way it is played out in our heart is through its fulfillment in a *brand new covenant,* the covenant of Christ. Since he fulfilled all 613 requirements of the Law, we simply follow him and thus play out the Law of Moses in terms of its fulfillment in a brand new covenant.

Perhaps you don't have the means or the wish to address this? But failing to answer this leads me to see your statements as inadequate expressions of an important issue here.

Many wish to maintain the value of the Law by reinterpreting the Law of Moses in a NT context, rather than see it as a *completely different covenant,* fulfilling the old one. They reinterpret the Sabbath to be Sunday observance. They reinterpret OT feasts to be a continuation of the observance of those feasts, although recognized as fulfilled in Christ.

There is this insistence on maintaining the *requirement* of the Law along some parallel track of the original Law. Rather than quote me from Jer 31, why don't you explain how you interpret it, unless you simply are unable to do so in the light of my concerns? Perhaps you don't fully understand what my concerns are?

I've heard a lot of Messianic Jews who insist that they should continue to observe Sabbath or Passover, even though they know it was fulfilled in Christ. Some Christians feel they need to observe Sunday as a kind of replacement for Sabbath observance. Is this your idea of having the covenant of Law in your heart?

Or do you see it the way I do, as omitting the entirety of the OT Law in favor of following Christ as the fulfillment of the Law? There is no need for any observance of any religious day at all, nor is there any need to follow a parallel track with the Law in requiring various festivals or food requirements.

The Law is fulfilled in Christ and in his love. His love fulfills all of the moral commands of the Law, minus all of the infrastructure and law having to do with temporary means of atonement.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Reader,

What you'll notice about people who always want to talk about sin and the LAW, is that this is "Moses's Law".
(mitzvot in Hebrew)

There are 613 of them, and every "christian" who is trying to replace the Cross with the Law, or they are trying to Tie the Cross to Moses's Law, could not name 100 of the laws. Now even 40, or 30.

Yet.."i keep the law, God requires it"....and they dont even know 30 of the 613.
These fakirs could not name all 10 commandments if they had to do it to survive.

So, this is just one more game playing, fake nonsense, pretend..... phony..... Christian Forum JUNK = ...religious people who are trying to present themselves as "spiritual" and in fact they are just NT ignorant, and carnally minded.

If your emotions were not so negative or strong, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Unfortunately, I feel that you weaken your argument by not leaving room for "redemption?"

Yet, it is true that Paul was pretty strong in his stand against Legalism. We should be, in some ways, too!

 

[Behold]

If your emotions were not so negative or strong, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Unfortunately, I feel that you weaken your argument by not leaving room for "redemption?"

Yet, it is true that Paul was pretty strong in his stand against Legalism. We should be, in some ways, too!

The reason that sincere believers on forums are often, one day Grace and the next day law, is because they were never taught why that is this....

Jesus said...

= "i will spit you out of my mouth" Jesus said, as you are neither hot nor cold.

Notice Christ didn't say that to people who have dead faith.....
It the "on the fence", "well i think its this"....>"but dont you think it could be".........or the...>"well, noone knows, we are all just guessing". and "in my opinion it means"....

See those?
They are the worst.
Absolutely, as being double minded, is to be unrooted and easily deceived.

Im not that one., and what i cause is designed to root out that situation as much as possible on a Forum.

 

[Bob Estey]

Don't you realize that you regularly avoid discriminating between the Law as a set of moral requirements and the Law as a system, or covenant? When you refer to it, via Jer 31, as a "covenant," you are identifying it ambiguously, and not specifying what you mean.

Are you saying the covenant of Mosaic Law is being played out within our heart, or are you saying that God's moral values are being played out in our heart *apart from* the Law of Moses? Explaining this would go a long way towards ending this conversation in a satisfactory way!

For example, someone in the OT era might say that the Law of Moses is being played out in his heart, as he continues to follow all 613 requirements, observing temple, priestly, and sacrificial laws. But Most Christians today would admit that the value of the Law is largely *testimonial,* and not applicable as a covenant any longer. The way it is played out in our heart is through its fulfillment in a *brand new covenant,* the covenant of Christ. Since he fulfilled all 613 requirements of the Law, we simply follow him and thus play out the Law of Moses in terms of its fulfillment in a brand new covenant.

Perhaps you don't have the means or the wish to address this? But failing to answer this leads me to see your statements as inadequate expressions of an important issue here.

Many wish to maintain the value of the Law by reinterpreting the Law of Moses in a NT context, rather than see it as a *completely different covenant,* fulfilling the old one. They reinterpret the Sabbath to be Sunday observance. They reinterpret OT feasts to be a continuation of the observance of those feasts, although recognized as fulfilled in Christ.

There is this insistence on maintaining the *requirement* of the Law along some parallel track of the original Law. Rather than quote me from Jer 31, why don't you explain how you interpret it, unless you simply are unable to do so in the light of my concerns? Perhaps you don't fully understand what my concerns are?

I've heard a lot of Messianic Jews who insist that they should continue to observe Sabbath or Passover, even though they know it was fulfilled in Christ. Some Christians feel they need to observe Sunday as a kind of replacement for Sabbath observance. Is this your idea of having the covenant of Law in your heart?

Or do you see it the way I do, as omitting the entirety of the OT Law in favor of following Christ as the fulfillment of the Law? There is no need for any observance of any religious day at all, nor is there any need to follow a parallel track with the Law in requiring various festivals or food requirements.

The Law is fulfilled in Christ and in his love. His love fulfills all of the moral commands of the Law, minus all of the infrastructure and law having to do with temporary means of atonement.

What I am saying is very simple. There are things that we can do that get us into trouble, in this lifetime. They are called sins. The Lord brought this to our attention with his commandments. These same things will get us into trouble in the next life, also, but hopefully by then we won't do those things.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What I am saying is very simple. There are things that we can do that get us into trouble, in this lifetime. They are called sins. The Lord brought this to our attention with his commandments. These same things will get us into trouble in the next life, also, but hopefully by then we won't do those things.

I give up!

 

[Bob Estey]

I give up!

You seem to be focused entirely on the world to come. I think the world to come is just a continuation of the world we live in.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You seem to be focused entirely on the world to come. I think the world to come is just a continuation of the world we live in.

Where did I say otherwise? I believe Jesus had us to "watch now," not in preparation for an imminent event that will be from Mars, but to avoid traps and snipers who would derail our preparation for the Kingdom of God. You must think I'm somebody else?

 

[Bob Estey]

Where did I say otherwise? I believe Jesus had us to "watch now," not in preparation for an imminent event that will be from Mars, but to avoid traps and snipers who would derail our preparation for the Kingdom of God. You must think I'm somebody else?

Yes, I thought so.

 

[Inexplicable]

But grace enables you and I to obey the law, something that was formerly impossible to do under the old covenant. Grace now enables the believer in the new covenant to live a sanctified life. For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, Titus 2:11-12. By doing away with the law, you've thrown out the baby with the bath water.

Well said.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well said

I have serious questions about the statement: "But grace enables you and I to obey the law, something that was formerly impossible to do under the old covenant."

This is fraught with semantics problems. What does he mean by Grace enabling us to "obey the Law?" There are two very different senses of "obeying the Law." In the theology of Salvation, we cannot at all obey the Law. No obedience under the Law attains to Salvation because the Law itself prohibits it, proving that we are sinners in need of sacrifices and purification.

On the other hand, God gave Israel the Law through Moses precisely so that they could obey it. In obeying it, they did not attain to Eternal Life, but the nation was able to obtain divine blessings, assuming that the vast majority of the nation kept the essential moral requirements of that Law. A few bad actors could do damage to the nation, but overall, the Law was a barometer of the health of the nation. God would bless a nation generally obedient to Him, and curse those who opposed Him. After all, there had been a covenant between them. An unfaithful nation would be divorced.

So the statement being made completely confuses this, by mixing Paul's statements regarding Salvation with Moses' command that Israel obey the Law in order to experience national blessings. Obviously, the nation Israel *could* in fact obey the Law! They just couldn't obtain Salvation unto Eternal Life through it. Animal sacrifices were insufficient. Christ's sacrifice was prerequisite.

The Grace of God did not suddenly enable men to obey God's moral laws. Man from the beginning had been given to be able to live in God's image, to obey God's laws. Not even the Fall of Man has kept Man from being able to obey God's laws. The curse of sin merely keeps Man from being able to attain to Eternal Life.

When men try to attain to righteousness apart from Christ, however, they find their sin is magnified. They cannot do good while pursuing an independent form of righteousness. But even people who live lives apart from Christ are able to do good, to keep God's laws to some degree.

To obtain a new nature in Christ, however, we must completely submit to Christ as Lord. It is giving up our independence to live co-dependently upon Christ so that in living by him we live not just to do good, but more, to be good. That is, we obtain a new nature from Christ when we embrace a life of dependence upon him.