Understanding the Law vs. Grace

[Randy Kluth]

Here is how you "obey "Jesus.

To BELIEVE the Gospel, is to "obey".

Its The Gospel that offers the Cross of Christ, which is ALL that God offers you, to accept you.

Commandments and Law, do not offer The Cross of Christ.

Think of it like this..

If it didn't die on the Cross for you sin, then it can't be your Savior.

All of these, .... cannot be your savior.

1.) Water Baptism
2.) Commandments
3.) Law
4.) Enduring to the End
5.) Trying to be like Christ
6.) Self Effort
7.) Holding unto Faith
8.) A Denomination
9.) Communion
10) Mary
11.) Confessing sin

Just to be clear, brother, you are talking about the Savior, which is an identity, and not what constitutes "obedience" or "righteousness." The righteousness that Christ requires of us for Salvation is his own righteousness. We *partipate* in it, and are thus saved. Unless we participate in Christ himself, we cannot be saved. So in participating in him we also participate in his righteousness. That's why he told his would-be disciples to *repent and follow him.*

What is very clear, however, is that righteousness for Salvation never came through the Law, and does not do so now either. It is a covenant that is no longer in effect, since Christ came to fulfill it.

But to say that we do not carry out Christ's "commandments" is misleading. We do not obey commandments *apart from Christ,* but in believing in him and accepting him and following him we are committing to obey his righteousness. Without this we have not truly repented, and we have not truly accepted him, and we are not truly following him.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

I'm not saying you don't believe this. It's just that when you say we are not saved by obeying commandments there are nuances there that could be misleading. If we truly wish to be saved, we must understand that we are committing not just to an identity but also to the righteousness he represents. He did the saving, but to be saved we must embrace what that salvation entails.

 

[Behold]

Just to be clear, brother, you are talking about the Savior, which is an identity, and not what constitutes "obedience" or "righteousness." The righteousness that Christ requires of us for Salvation is his own righteousness. We *partipate* in it, and are thus saved. Unless we participate in Christ himself, we cannot be saved.

The righteousness of God is the Cross of Christ.

ITs the blood and the death......that happened.

Can you participate in that?

No you can't., and this that Jesus has accomplished for us, that He said from the Cross is...."FINISHED"......is the Gift of God.

1.) The Gift of Salvation

2.) The Gift of Righteousenss.

Salvation is all of God, through the Cross of Christ.

After we have it.......having been born again, then we :

"present our bodies as a living sacrifice to God".

This is our walk of faith, our discipleship......its not our Salvation, as Jesus is our Salvation, and the born again are "IN Christ" , which has nothing to do with trying to like Him, but its everything to do with being made "the righteousness of God, in Christ".

The instant a person is born again, they have received "Christ's Righteousness", and are completed in this "gift of Salvation" and "Gift of Righteousness".

 

[Bob Estey]

Bob, it is so easy to misinterpret Paul's statements, which are often more complex than they appear. They are often abbreviated, as I like to say, and must be understood in context.

Paul never meant to indicate that under the Law Israel could not keep the Law at all, or could not be righteous at all. I hear some here say that. What Paul was actually saying, in abbreviated fashion, is that Israel could not complete their righteousness with Eternal Life under the Law. They could not achieve *final justification* even if they could find a temporary reprieve under the Law.

Paul was trying to make it clear, for those who wanted to remain under the Law after Christ, that they could not by the Law achieve Eternal Life, since the purpose of the Law was not just to produce a temporary righteousness, but to also prove that any sin not mitigated by Christ could never obtain Eternal Life.

Some people seem to get wrapped up in the eternal life thing, when I think the law was just meant to keep us out of trouble - here on earth.

 

[gadar]

Read my post immediately above (#93).

So your point is? You fail to explain yourself in terms of what you think dying to the law is. If the law no longer holds, then you are forced to explain why the disciples observed the law prior to Jesus' death and as the Apostles continued to observe the law after Jesus' death.

 

[gadar]

Here is how you "obey "Jesus.

To BELIEVE the Gospel, is to "obey".

Its The Gospel that offers the Cross of Christ, which is ALL that God offers you, to accept you.

Commandments and Law, do not offer The Cross of Christ.

Think of it like this..

If it didn't die on the Cross for you sin, then it can't be your Savior.

All of these, .... cannot be your savior.

1.) Water Baptism
2.) Commandments
3.) Law
4.) Enduring to the End
5.) Trying to be like Christ
6.) Self Effort
7.) Holding unto Faith
8.) A Denomination
9.) Communion
10) Mary
11.) Confessing sin

To believe is to obey but the relevant question is not who to obey (Jesus) but what to obey (the commandments/Jesus' teachings). Do you believe that we need to obey the scriptures? Yes or no? I'll presume you would answer yes, believers need to obey the Bible/scriptures. After all 2 Tim 3:16 states All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
What you probably don't realize is that when this verse was written, there were no NT scriptures as the canon was not yet completed. Therefore 2 Tim 3:16 refers to ALL OF THE OT SCRIPTURES. Thus, all believers are judged by the OT law which is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Yet, ironically you dismiss that which is useful to you to train you up.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The righteousness of God is the Cross of Christ.

ITs the blood and the death......that happened.

Can you participate in that?

The righteousness of God is the Cross of Christ? Where did you get that? Do you think that's what John meant when he said, "2.6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

No you can't., and this that Jesus has accomplished for us, that He said from the Cross is...."FINISHED"......is the Gift of God.

1.) The Gift of Salvation

2.) The Gift of Righteousenss.

Salvation is all of God, through the Cross of Christ.

Christ and his righteousness are all of God, and we *must* participate in it, according to the Apostle John. But you *completely ignored* the verses that said that!
So now I'm going to ignore you....

 

[Randy Kluth]

Some people seem to get wrapped up in the eternal life thing, when I think the law was just meant to keep us out of trouble - here on earth.

I have no idea what being "wrapped up in the eternal life thing" means? Sounds like that is less important to you than what? What could be more important to the doctrine of God than eternal life?

 

[Behold]

To believe is to obey but the relevant question is not who to obey (Jesus) but what to obey (the commandments/Jesus' teachings).

Believing the Gospel is the "obey".

Let me show you.

Notice what you are to obey to go to Heaven, and the cost of not obeying the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 1:8​

“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

 

[Bob Estey]

I have no idea what being "wrapped up in the eternal life thing" means? Sounds like that is less important to you than what? What could be more important to the doctrine of God than eternal life?

I agree that that's important. I still think the law was meant to keep us out of trouble here on earth.

 

[dev553344]

Some people seem to get wrapped up in the eternal life thing, when I think the law was just meant to keep us out of trouble - here on earth.

The interesting thing is that Jesus never broke the law, and it was necessary for him to keep the law to provide the atonement. He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. And he commands us to keep the law, which is something I struggle with every day. But with grace perhaps I can be saved. Cheers!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I agree that that's important. I still think the law was meant to keep us out of trouble here on earth.

It's up to you what you believe. But to clarify, you believe the Law is still a fully-functioning covenant, applicable to Jews and to Christians? Some Christians believe that the Law is not so much a covenant as a 1st step in coming to Christ. 1st, people find they are sinners by applying the truths of the Law to their life. And this turns them to Jesus Christ for acceptance of his forgiveness, apart from the Law. What do you believe in this regard?

 

[Bob Estey]

It's up to you what you believe. But to clarify, you believe the Law is still a fully-functioning covenant, applicable to Jews and to Christians? Some Christians believe that the Law is not so much a covenant as a 1st step in coming to Christ. 1st, people find they are sinners by applying the truths of the Law to their life. And this turns them to Jesus Christ for acceptance of his forgiveness, apart from the Law. What do you believe in this regard?

One has to define "Law." I would define it as being God's commandments. And there are only a few of those.

But it's personal. It's like this:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33 RSV

Over a period of time, the Lord teaches us what to do, and what not to do. That's what happened to me. Maybe he has a different way of teaching you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

One has to define "Law." I would define it as being God's commandments. And there are only a few of those.

But it's personal. It's like this:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33 RSV

Over a period of time, the Lord teaches us what to do, and what not to do. That's what happened to me. Maybe he has a different way of teaching you.

No, I think we serve the same God. We all learn pretty much the same way. I also define the Law of God in NT terms, if that's what you're doing? Those are love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor, right?

Those laws are applicable as part of what God asks us to do, to follow Christ. To follow Christ means we are to leave independent control of our lives behind to live in partnership with Him, allowing Him to lead in all things. We are called not to be slaves, but to be free children. But we are always subject to His morals and also to His guidance.

Learning to serve others is a major challenge, and requires years to learn. Thanks for your answers.

 

[Bob Estey]

No, I think we serve the same God. We all learn pretty much the same way. I also define the Law of God in NT terms, if that's what you're doing? Those are love the Lord your God, and love your neighbor, right?

Those laws are applicable as part of what God asks us to do, to follow Christ. To follow Christ means we are to leave independent control of our lives behind to live in partnership with Him, allowing Him to lead in all things. We are called not to be slaves, but to be free children. But we are always subject to His morals and also to His guidance.

Learning to serve others is a major challenge, and requires years to learn. Thanks for your answers.

You're welcome.

The way I define Law is by the way the Lord brought my attention to certain sins I was committing, and convincing me to stop.

The problem with the two great commandments might be that they need some definition. For example, some people might think adultery is not a sin, because neither of the two great commandments mentions adultery. I would say the Ten Commandments help define the two great ones.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You're welcome.

The way I define Law is by the way the Lord brought my attention to certain sins I was committing, and convincing me to stop.

The problem with the two great commandments might be that they need some definition. For example, some people might think adultery is not a sin, because neither of the two great commandments mentions adultery. I would say the Ten Commandments help define the two great ones.

Right, the 2 Great Commandments are summary commandments--not replacement commandments. They were actually given while the Law was still in effect to sort of synthesize them all and distill them into a single motive, or spirit. It is a spirit of submission to God that produces the kind of love that does no harm to anybody, whether God or people.

Paul said that the one who loves does no harm to anybody, and cannot violate any of God's laws.

Rom 13.8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Paul was not teaching OT Law was applicable for today. But he was showing that when it was in effect, all of the commandments were a reflection of God's love, whether towards Him or towards others. They were all designed to get us to always act in love, just as God Himself was the essence of love.

Adultery is wrong today not because it is in the 10 Commandments but because the 10 Commandments described, indirectly, what Christ is like. He is holy and wholly supports the believers' marriage. As such, he is against adultery as the Creator of marriage and as one who supports love between believers and a commitment to their marriage and family.

 

[Bob Estey]

Right, the 2 Great Commandments are summary commandments--not replacement commandments. They were actually given while the Law was still in effect to sort of synthesize them all and distill them into a single motive, or spirit. It is a spirit of submission to God that produces the kind of love that does no harm to anybody, whether God or people.

Paul said that the one who loves does no harm to anybody, and cannot violate any of God's laws.

Rom 13.8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Paul was not teaching OT Law was applicable for today. But he was showing that when it was in effect, all of the commandments were a reflection of God's love, whether towards Him or towards others. They were all designed to get us to always act in love, just as God Himself was the essence of love.

Adultery is wrong today not because it is in the 10 Commandments but because the 10 Commandments described, indirectly, what Christ is like. He is holy and wholly supports the believers' marriage. As such, he is against adultery as the Creator of marriage and as one who supports love between believers and a commitment to their marriage and family.

You speak of the Law "being in effect," but I would say that it's always a good idea to obey the commandments. Otherwise we can get ourselves into trouble.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You speak of the Law "being in effect," but I would say that it's always a good idea to obey the commandments. Otherwise we can get ourselves into trouble.

I'm in no trouble whatsoever. What you're doing is confusing the generic Law of God, describing His eternal holiness, and the specific Law of Moses, applicable only in the OT era.

The OT Law is kaput, gone. The generic Law of God, describing Man's eternal relationship to God, with respect to HIs holiness, is eternal.

We were created in God's image. Therefore, we are always under the Law requiring us to live in imitation of His love.

This has *nothing whatsoever* to do with the Law of Moses, which was the covenant that has now expired, in particular when Israel broke that covenant at Christ's death.

If you think there are more than 2 commandments in the New Covenant, specifically the 10 Commandments, then it is you who have the problem. And I hope that's not what you're saying?

The command to keep the Sabbath holy is no longer required. All of the other commandments are fulfilled, by default, when we embrace Christ and choose to follow him.

And that's because all of the commandments were fulfilled in his righteousness, and not ours. He had to fulfill all of them with sinless perfection.

As God he had to forgive those who had fallen away from God. No sinful man could provide the righteousness necessary to remain in eternal fellowship with God apart from Christ's atonement.

And so, if we believe we are constrained to keep the 10 Commandments, we will be doing so apart from Christ and apart from his atonement. But if we believe he fulfilled the 10 Commandments, then all we have to do is follow him and participate in his righteousness. Then we can enter into his righteousness by grace.

 

[Bob Estey]

I'm in no trouble whatsoever. What you're doing is confusing the generic Law of God, describing His eternal holiness, and the specific Law of Moses, applicable only in the OT era.

The OT Law is kaput, gone. The generic Law of God, describing Man's eternal relationship to God, with respect to HIs holiness, is eternal.

We were created in God's image. Therefore, we are always under the Law requiring us to live in imitation of His love.

This has *nothing whatsoever* to do with the Law of Moses, which was the covenant that has now expired, in particular when Israel broke that covenant at Christ's death.

If you think there are more than 2 commandments in the New Covenant, specifically the 10 Commandments, then it is you who have the problem. And I hope that's not what you're saying?

The command to keep the Sabbath holy is no longer required. All of the other commandments are fulfilled, by default, when we embrace Christ and choose to follow him.

And that's because all of the commandments were fulfilled in his righteousness, and not ours. He had to fulfill all of them with sinless perfection.

As God he had to forgive those who had fallen away from God. No sinful man could provide the righteousness necessary to remain in eternal fellowship with God apart from Christ's atonement.

And so, if we believe we are constrained to keep the 10 Commandments, we will be doing so apart from Christ and apart from his atonement. But if we believe he fulfilled the 10 Commandments, then all we have to do is follow him and participate in his righteousness. Then we can enter into his righteousness by grace.

That's the problem with sin - when we sin, trouble comes into our lives. I think that's why Jesus told us not to sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's the problem with sin - when we sin, trouble comes into our lives. I think that's why Jesus told us not to sin.

If that's what you meant by "trouble," I of course agree. The trouble is, I'm trying to talk about the role of Divine Law in our lives, and you refuse to give anything that spells out the difference between the Law of Moses and God's eternal law of holiness.

As much as the Law of Moses referred to God's eternal holiness, it could only apply that holiness to Man on a temporary basis. It would always reflect the Sin of Man, cutting him off from God due to the sin that was revealed.

And so, the Law also spoke of Christ's future redemption, which would remove the obstacle to Man's eternal relationship to God. If we wish to observe the Law, it should not be as a system of justification, but rather, as a reflection of Christ's righteousness, which is a system quite different from the Law of Moses. Same righteousness, but different atonement. One was temporary, and the other is eternal.

Heb 8.5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
10.11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The moral laws contained in the Law of Moses do reflect the righteousness of Christ, and we are obligated to obey them today. But they must be viewed through a new system that omits the temporal aspects of the Law of Moses, including the laws of purification, dietary laws, festival laws, temple, priestly, and sacrificial laws.

The Law of Moses was predicated on a system that did not yet have a means of eternal atonement. As such, it has a sound moral basis, but did not provide the underlying atonement necessary to fix that righteousness in eternity.

But we can keep the morality of Christ himself and rely on *his record* of righteousness, which is perfect. It is that perfect record that provides us with eternal atonement, allowing our righteousness to be fixed for all eternity.

So when we say we obey God's Law, we must specify under what system we are obeying moral principles, the temporary system of the Law of Moses, which falls short, or the eternal system of Christ which fixes our righteousness for all eternity. Whenever we say we are obeying a set of moral laws, they will have no value if they rely on our own record of righteousness, and not on the flawless record of Christ's righteousness. Our moral virtue must come strictly from Christ himself together with his blameless record.

As such, we are not under the system of the Law of Moses, which exposes our own record as falling woefully short of perfection, thus disqualifying us from Eternal Life. We must express our righteousness as coming exclusively from Christ, who had no means other than himself for granting us atonement. We cannot atone for ourselves by observance of righteousness by using any system other than him.

 

[Bob Estey]

If that's what you meant by "trouble," I of course agree. The trouble is, I'm trying to talk about the role of Divine Law in our lives, and you refuse to give anything that spells out the difference between the Law of Moses and God's eternal law of holiness.

As much as the Law of Moses referred to God's eternal holiness, it could only apply that holiness to Man on a temporary basis. It would always reflect the Sin of Man, cutting him off from God due to the sin that was revealed.

And so, the Law also spoke of Christ's future redemption, which would remove the obstacle to Man's eternal relationship to God. If we wish to observe the Law, it should not be as a system of justification, but rather, as a reflection of Christ's righteousness, which is a system quite different from the Law of Moses. Same righteousness, but different atonement. One was temporary, and the other is eternal.

Heb 8.5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”
10.11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

The moral laws contained in the Law of Moses do reflect the righteousness of Christ, and we are obligated to obey them today. But they must be viewed through a new system that omits the temporal aspects of the Law of Moses, including the laws of purification, dietary laws, festival laws, temple, priestly, and sacrificial laws.

The Law of Moses was predicated on a system that did not yet have a means of eternal atonement. As such, it has a sound moral basis, but did not provide the underlying atonement necessary to fix that righteousness in eternity.

But we can keep the morality of Christ himself and rely on *his record* of righteousness, which is perfect. It is that perfect record that provides us with eternal atonement, allowing our righteousness to be fixed for all eternity.

So when we say we obey God's Law, we must specific under what system we are obeying moral principles, the temporary system of the Law of Moses, which falls short, or the eternal system of Christ which fixes our righteousness for all eternity. Whenever we say we are obeying a set of moral laws, they will have no value if they rely on our own record of righteousness, and not on the flawless record of Christ's righteousness. Our moral virtue must come strictly from Christ himself together with his blameless record.

As such, we are not under the system of the Law of Moses, which exposes our own record as falling woefully short of perfection, thus disqualifying us from Eternal Life. We must express our righteousness as coming exclusively from Christ, who had no means other than himself for granting us atonement. We cannot atone for ourselves by observance of righteousness by using any system other than him.

I think Jeremiah 31:33 gives some insight. (Didn't I already mention that?):

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33 RSV

In our daily walk with the Lord, at a time of his choosing, he teaches us his (Devine) Law/Commandments. It takes time, as he wants us to understand the (Devine) Law/Commandments.