Upcoming Holy Days

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Okay, what if I give you that (even though you have yet to actually point to a single instance where either Trumpets or Jubilee is associated with resurrection), but let’s say I give you that, wouldn’t it be more likely that the resurrection they are associated with at the beginning of God’s Heavenly Kingdom replacing the earthly kingdom signaled the spiritual resurrection that is the gift of salvation, which is also the harvest of the Gospel?

To the credit of GadarPerets, You first and yet have to actually point to a single instance where "'the earthly kingdom signaled the spiritual resurrection'". (O the power of restraint! Practice made the difference. The chip comes onto MY shoulder!)

 

[gadar perets]

In post 117, here is what at this moment is STILL standing there, WHAT YOU SAID in answer to Pilgrimer:
Quote: ↑ Pilgrimer: Okay, now don’t go the other extreme and insist on another rule that the shadow and the reality could not exist at the same time or that because the shadows still existed at the time Paul wrote his letter means they had not been fulfilled. These rules don’t solve problems, they create them. For example, I assume we both agree that the sacrificial death of Jesus fulfilled every sacrifice and offering of the law, and yet the sacrifices and offerings of the Law (the shadows) continued to be offered up in the Temple for another 40 years after Jesus’ death. They did not immediately stop when Christ was crucified. They didn’t “pass away” (cease) until 40 years later. Remember Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass from the law, including the jots and tittles about sacrifices, until ALL had been fulfilled. Jesus’ death was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of salvation, but there was more to be fulfilled, and it was fulfilled over the course of the next 40 years culminating with the judgment of the Law, the final jots and tittles. Then it all passed away.

But the point is that just because the sacrifices and offerings were still being made in the Temple (the shadows still existed) does not mean Jesus had not fulfilled them. And the same is true with the holy days. Just because they were still being observed does not mean they had not been fulfilled. So don't rely on that as some kind of rule to insist the feasts or some portions of the feasts have not been fulfilled.
Gadar Perets:
Paul said the feasts "are shadows of things to come". Therefore, when Paul wrote that the feasts had not been fulfilled yet.
I, GE, emboldened and coloured.
YOU, not I, wrote: "'Paul wrote'", and YOU, not I, said: "'Paul said'".

Exactly as I said. My quotation marks of Paul's words do not include "the feasts". Yet, in post 125, you wrote, "You added your own words "'the feasts'" to the Text "which are a shadow of things to come". How can I be adding them as part of the text if I did not quote them, but only quoted the words "are a shadow of things to come"?

Now, here is your translation of what Paul wrote in your post #122. The added words are in red.

"This is what Paul wrote,

"Don't you let yourselves be judged by anyone in regard to your eating and drinking of Christ the Substance of Sabbaths' Feast either Lord's Supper of month's or of weekly Sabbaths' Feast, which are but the shadow of what imminently must come for you holding to the Head, the Body growing with the growth of God Christ being the Nourishment ministered." "
​

Since all the words in red above within quotation marks are proclaimed by you as Paul's words, but are NOT found in the Greek, then you are the one who is guilty of adding your own words to the text. What Greek text is this a translation of, the "GerhardEbersoehn Codex"?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I didn't miss the point. You missed my point about the reference point/perspective. In Colossians 2, Paul used the word "ARE" in relation to his day, but in Hebrews the writer used "HAVING" which puts the time element in the days when sacrifices were still be offered.

I think you missed the point:
“For the law having a shadow of good things to come …”
“Which are a shadow of things to come …”

Again, to the credit of GadarPerets, You, Pilgrimer, miss the point it is completely and highly irregular and contrary all laws of good Bible exploration to compare figs with prickly pears, 'vye met turksvye' my ou maat, gesteek raak gaat jy gesteek raak! The use of the words for "shadow" do not belong or fit in the very different contexts in Hebrews and Colossians.

In Hebrews 10:1 "the Law had a shadow of good things a coming, not itself the icon / material image / substance / essence of the matter in practical reality (but a shadow) in the same sacrifices which they offered continually every year." The "good things-a-coming" - 'tohn mellontohn agathohn' - looked forward to every year continually were "the sacrifices" and the days the sacrifices were "offered continually every year". A FAR shot from Colossians 2:17 where "Christ is the Substance and Essence (of) your eating and drinking of Sabbaths' Feast".

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

My quotation marks of Paul's words do not include "the feasts". Yet, in post 125, you wrote, "You added your own words "'the feasts'" to the Text "which are a shadow of things to come". How can I be adding them as part of the text if I did not quote them, but only quoted the words "are a shadow of things to come"?

Now, here is your translation of what Paul wrote in your post #122. The added words are in red.

"This is what Paul wrote,

"Don't you let yourselves be judged by anyone in regard to your eating and drinking of Christ the Substance of Sabbaths' Feast either Lord's Supper of month's or of weekly Sabbaths' Feast, which are but the shadow of what imminently must come for you holding to the Head, the Body growing with the growth of God Christ being the Nourishment ministered." "
Since all the words in red above within quotation marks are proclaimed by you as Paul's words, but are NOT found in the Greek, then you are the one who is guilty of adding your own words to the text. What Greek text is this a translation of, the "GerhardEbersoehn Codex"?

WHY SPOIL A GOOD CONVERSATION WITH BICKERING ABOUT BOGGEROL?!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

How can I be adding them as part of the text if I did not quote them, but only quoted the words "are a shadow of things to come"?

By having said and by having written, "'Paul said ... Paul wrote'". That's how.

 

[Pilgrimer]

God's Heavenly Kingdom will literally replace all earthly kingdoms at Messiah's second coming. That is when the dead in Messiah will literally be resurrected.

Okay, I agree that all the earthly kingdoms will one day be destroyed when this present fallen heavens and earth are destroyed, and in the new heavens and earth there will no more man-made earthly kingdoms. And I also agree that will occur at the 2nd coming of Jesus. I further agree that is when the physical resurrection will take place. But that will be what Paul calls in Romans 8:18-23 the “manifestation” of the sons of God which the whole creation waits for groaning under the burden of corruption, when all these spiritual blessings that we have already received are “manifested” in the physical world. That will be at the 2nd coming of Jesus, when the whole creation will be redeemed including our physical bodies.

But we are talking about the fulfillment of the shadows of the Law of Moses and “all earthly kingdoms” were not shadows of the Law of Moses, the Kingdom of Israel was the earthly kingdom that foreshadowed God’s Kingdom, the earthly capitol city of Jerusalem foreshadowed New Jerusalem, the heavenly city, and the earthly tabernacle/temple was the shadow of the courts and throne room of Heaven itself.

So the “shaking” of heaven and earth that would “replace” the shadows with the reality was the removing of the Kingdom of Israel (the shadow) and the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven (the reality).

And yes, the Kingdom of Heaven is come, it came “without observation” (unseen with the physical eye) in the days of the coming of Jesus, and those of us who have been raised to spiritual life now walk in that kingdom. But at the 2nd Coming of Jesus that kingdom will be “manifest” in the physical realm resulting in a new heavens and new earth purged by the fire of the full manifestation of God’s glory. And us too, who have the firstfruits of the spirit, our physical bodies too will pass through that fire, but rather than destroying us, it will purge us of the corruption our bodies are still subject to and we will come through the fire like purified gold, shining and bright, glorified.

But that will be the physical manifestation of all these things that were shadowy outlines and vague hints in the Law and the Prophets but came to pass in the days of the 1st coming of Jesus. That’s why he came, to fulfill these things.

I didn't miss the point. You missed my point about the reference point/perspective. In Colossians 2, Paul used the word "ARE" in relation to his day, but in Hebrews the writer used "HAVING" which puts the time element in the days when sacrifices were still be offered.

The word “having” is also present tense. Just like when Paul said:

“For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices …” Hebrews 8:3

The word “is” means present tense and Paul was speaking of the High Priest (appointed by Agrippa II c 62-66 A.D.) yet Paul was arguing that Jesus has fulfilled that and has become our High Priest.

And again: “…there are priests that offer gifts according to the law.” Hebrews 8:4

There “are” priests offering gifts and sacrifices according to the law, using the exact same words he used in reference to the holy days and yet he was not stating that the priests offerings gifts and sacrifices had not yet been fulfilled.

In both those cases the reference point/perspective was that in Paul’s day the High Priest and in fact all the priests were offering gifts and sacrifices according to the Law, in other words the shadows were still being practiced, but he was in fact using them as an example of a shadow that Jesus had already fulfilled that "were ready to vanish away," meaning they would vanish away in Paul's future, not that they would be fulfilled in Paul's future.

And Paul made it clear that these things were Old Covenant examples and shadows and that now that the New Covenant was come, it wasn’t just the sacrificial ordinances that were “ready to vanish away,” but it was in fact the entire Old Covenant that was “ready to vanish away.” The fact that all these shadows still existed and were still being observed at the time of Paul’s writing and were to vanish away in the future from the perspective of Paul’s writing this letter in no way means they were not yet fulfilled.

And considering that Paul wrote this letter c. 62 – 66 A.D. (between the time James the Presbyter of Jerusalem had been slain in 62 and the beginning of the war in 66) then that “vanishing away” did in fact come to pass 4-8 years later, after the last jots and tittles were fulfilled, and the last jots and tittles to be fulfilled was the final judgment and punishment of wrath poured out on the guilty. And after those last jots and tittles were fulfilled, then it all vanished away, the sacrifices, the priesthood, the holy days, all Old Covenant observance (Lawful observance) vanished away.

Ezekiel said Passover is a feast of seven days (Ezekiel 45:21). Passover can refer to the sacrificed lamb or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Our congregation has the Master's Supper on the evening of Abib 14 and the remembrance of the Passover/Exodus account on the evening of Abib 15. On both days we teach about how Yeshua fulfilled the Passover sacrifice. It is a celebration of the Passover from a NC perspective.

I am aware that the Scripture sometimes speaks of the whole seven days of Unleavened Bread collectively as “the Passover.” John does so in his Gospel, not once using the term “Unleavened Bread” to designate this feast but calling the whole seven-day festival “the Passover.” Indeed, some people cite that as “proof” that Jesus didn’t actually eat the Passover because John spoke of the Sanhedrists who refused to enter the Antonio because they would be defiled and unable to eat “the Passover” although John uses that term to refer to the whole seven-day feast, not the Passover lambs.

But we are not talking about common usage, even in Scripture, we’re talking about what the Law says, and according to the Law the Passover is the sacrifice of the lamb on Nisan 14 that is eaten on the first night of Unleavened Bread. Thus the Passover is not a feast and it doesn’t last seven days. It’s a sacrifice offering on the afternoon of Nisan 14 and eaten after sunset at the beginning of the first day of Unleavened Bread Nisan 15.

But to return to the point, to keep the Passover according to the commandments of the Law would require sacrificing a lamb on the afternoon of Nisan 14 and eating it that night. Clearly, if you have no Passover sacrifice to eat, you are not keeping the Passover. You may be keeping Unleavened Bread but the Passover is missing.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, but that is not my own reckoning. The two wave loaves refer to the two groups of 144,000 believers that will be resurrected and ascend to heaven as the firstfruits of the wheat harvest.

But the Revelation identifies the 144,000 as Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.

And further, the Revelation also states that the four destroying angels were held back from destroying the land until the 144,000 Jews were marked with a seal in their foreheads. Ezekiel 9 explains that:

“And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eyes spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary.”

Again, these were the faithful Jews who were saved from this judgment and destruction of the Jewish nation. And these 144,000 faithful Jews are identified further in Revelation 14 as the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. It is also said that no man but these 144,000 could learn the song they sang, which we see from Revelation 15 was the Song of Moses. Have you ever read the Song of Moses? And why they sang it in worship of God and the Lamb in honor of the justness of God in this powerful manifestation of His judgments? (Deuteronomy 31:28-32:43) You will see there the wellspring of the prophecies of the “Day of the Lord.”

This refers to a spiritual fulfillment of the captives of sin being set free from death row. However, a literal fulfillment is yet to come when those imprisoned by sin and death are set free from their graves.

But again, the physical event will not be the fulfillment, it will be the manifestation (apocalypse-disclosure, appearing, revelation), the visible outworking of what has already been internally fulfilled. That’s why in another place Paul says it is “Christ us you, the hope of glory.” It is only those who have the spirit dwelling within through whom the glory of God will one day be manifest through a redeemed body that will be purified and glorified by that indwelling presence.

Running long here so will address Zechariah 14:4 and Micah 5:2-4 separately.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

A couple of quick comments on Zechariah and Micah:

How about Zechariah 14:4 …

You mean the part about the feet of Jesus literally standing on the mount of Olives in the day when the nation of Israel would be divided and the righteous would receive salvation and the sinners would be consumed by God’s wrath?

… and Micah 5:2-4?

This prophecy about Messiah “coming out of Bethlehem” is the very prophecy the scribes referred to when they instructed Herod where Jesus was born who in turn sent the Magi to Bethlehem to search for Jesus on February 23, 4 B.C.

And that night the Lord told Joseph that Herod would seek to kill Jesus and Joseph woke Mary and they quickly packed up their few belongings on the back of the little donkey and headed off into the night, and didn’t stop until they were outside Herod’s authority and safely in Egypt where they stayed until the Lord sent another messenger and told Joseph that it was safe to return, Herod was dead.

The third verse is about the birthpains that the nation of Israel went though in the days of the coming of Jesus and the birth of the body of Christ, literally (the Word became flesh) and figuratively (Jerusalem has historically been referred to as “the Mother Church”). She is the sun-clothed woman of the Revelation.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

To the credit of GadarPerets, You first and yet have to actually point to a single instance where "'the earthly kingdom signaled the spiritual resurrection'". (O the power of restraint! Practice made the difference. The chip comes onto MY shoulder!)

I wasn't arguing that the trumpets or the Jubilee were shadows of the resurrection. I laid out a different explanation based on what the sounding of Trumpets actually meant in Scripture as well as what Jubilee was actually associated with in Scripture.

However, I do agree with Gadar that those who respond to the trumpet summons (the call of the Gospel) and take part in the resurrection (spiritual regeneration) are the ones who enjoy the blessings of Jubilee (deliverance from slavery/prison and being joined with the family of God), I just see those as spiritual realities already fulfilled to the body of Christ that will one day be literally manifested in the physical realm.

But I think you misunderstood my comment. I wasn't saying that the earthly kingdom signaled the spiritual resurrection, I was saying if the Trumpets and Jubilee signaled a resurrection at the beginning of God's Kingdom, it is more likely that Trumpets and Jubilee signaled the spiritual resurrection that began when God's Heavenly Kingdom (the reality) replaced the Kingdom of Israel (the shadow).

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

You, Pilgrimer, miss the point it is completely and highly irregular and contrary all laws of good Bible exploration to compare figs with prickly pears.

I'm afraid I have difficulty following your reasoning, but I don't think Paul saying that the Law of God having a shadow of good things to come, or the holy days being shadows of things to come, or the High Priest being a shadow of One yet to come, or the sacrifices being offered every year being a shadow of things to come is comparing figs with prickly pears. Everything in the Law was a shadow of something that would one day come to pass, and those shadows found their fulfillment in the person and work of Jesus.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Everything in the Law was a shadow of something that would one day come to pass, and those shadows found their fulfillment in the person and work of Jesus.

Good! And just so did the "things" which, when Paul wrote Colossians 2:17, were "soon to come" for "The Body of Christ's Own" the Church, as described in verse 19, find "'their fulfilment in the Person and work of Jesus'".

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Exactly as I said. My quotation marks of Paul's words do not include "the feasts".

Mate, THERE ARE NO WORDS, "'"the feasts"'", "'included in Paul's words'"!

 

[gadar perets]

Please try to keep your posts shorter and to the point.

Okay, I agree that all the earthly kingdoms will one day be destroyed when this present fallen heavens and earth are destroyed, and in the new heavens and earth there will no more man-made earthly kingdoms. And I also agree that will occur at the 2nd coming of Jesus. I further agree that is when the physical resurrection will take place. But that will be what Paul calls in Romans 8:18-23 the “manifestation” of the sons of God which the whole creation waits for groaning under the burden of corruption, when all these spiritual blessings that we have already received are “manifested” in the physical world. That will be at the 2nd coming of Jesus, when the whole creation will be redeemed including our physical bodies.

But we are talking about the fulfillment of the shadows of the Law of Moses and “all earthly kingdoms” were not shadows of the Law of Moses, the Kingdom of Israel was the earthly kingdom that foreshadowed God’s Kingdom, the earthly capitol city of Jerusalem foreshadowed New Jerusalem, the heavenly city, and the earthly tabernacle/temple was the shadow of the courts and throne room of Heaven itself.

So the “shaking” of heaven and earth that would “replace” the shadows with the reality was the removing of the Kingdom of Israel (the shadow) and the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven (the reality).

I believe the Kingdom of Israel was removed long before Yeshua was born. That is why the disciples asked Yeshua if he was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel shortly before his ascension (Acts 1:6). The Talmud says, "the days of the Messiah will be the time when שתשוב המלכות לישראל, "the kingdom shall return", or "be restored to Israel"; and they shall return to the land of Israel, and that king shall be exceeding great, and the house of his kingdom shall be in Zion, and his name shall be magnified, and his fame shall fill the Gentiles more than King Solomon; all nations shall be at peace with him, and all lands shall serve him, because of his great righteousness, and the wonderful things which shall be done by him; and whoever rises up against him God will destroy, and he shall deliver him into his hands; and all the passages of Scripture testify of his and our prosperity with him; and there shall be no difference in anything from what it is now, only "the kingdom shall return to Israel". Maimon. in Misn. Sanhedrin, c. 11. sect. 1.

As the King of YHWH's Kingdom, the presence of Yeshua meant the Kingdom was among them, but when he ascended, so did the Kingdom. We only have the Kingdom by faith, but the day will come when we will literally enter it and inherit it. Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. First comes the resurrection, then the entrance and inheritance.

I am aware that the Scripture sometimes speaks of the whole seven days of Unleavened Bread collectively as “the Passover.” John does so in his Gospel, not once using the term “Unleavened Bread” to designate this feast but calling the whole seven-day festival “the Passover.” Indeed, some people cite that as “proof” that Jesus didn’t actually eat the Passover because John spoke of the Sanhedrists who refused to enter the Antonio because they would be defiled and unable to eat “the Passover” although John uses that term to refer to the whole seven-day feast, not the Passover lambs.

But we are not talking about common usage, even in Scripture, we’re talking about what the Law says, and according to the Law the Passover is the sacrifice of the lamb on Nisan 14 that is eaten on the first night of Unleavened Bread. Thus the Passover is not a feast and it doesn’t last seven days. It’s a sacrifice offering on the afternoon of Nisan 14 and eaten after sunset at the beginning of the first day of Unleavened Bread Nisan 15.

But to return to the point, to keep the Passover according to the commandments of the Law would require sacrificing a lamb on the afternoon of Nisan 14 and eating it that night. Clearly, if you have no Passover sacrifice to eat, you are not keeping the Passover. You may be keeping Unleavened Bread but the Passover is missing.

We are keeping Passover with the new Passover Lamb. We keep it as a memorial, not a shadow.

But the Revelation identifies the 144,000 as Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel.

And further, the Revelation also states that the four destroying angels were held back from destroying the land until the 144,000 Jews were marked with a seal in their foreheads. Ezekiel 9 explains that:

“And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eyes spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary.”

Again, these were the faithful Jews who were saved from this judgment and destruction of the Jewish nation. And these 144,000 faithful Jews are identified further in Revelation 14 as the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. It is also said that no man but these 144,000 could learn the song they sang, which we see from Revelation 15 was the Song of Moses. Have you ever read the Song of Moses? And why they sang it in worship of God and the Lamb in honor of the justness of God in this powerful manifestation of His judgments? (Deuteronomy 31:28-32:43) You will see there the wellspring of the prophecies of the “Day of the Lord.”

The 144,000 may very well be Jews, but they are believers in Yeshua. They are followers of the Lamb. They are the firsfruits of the wheat harvest. No unbelieving Jew can be among the 144,000. Keep in mind that the only way to enter New Jerusalem is through a gate named after a tribe.

 

[gadar perets]

You mean the part about the feet of Jesus literally standing on the mount of Olives in the day when the nation of Israel would be divided and the righteous would receive salvation and the sinners would be consumed by God’s wrath?

Yes.

The third verse is about the birthpains that the nation of Israel went though in the days of the coming of Jesus and the birth of the body of Christ, literally (the Word became flesh) and figuratively (Jerusalem has historically been referred to as “the Mother Church”). She is the sun-clothed woman of the Revelation.

Not so.

Mic 5:3 Therefore will he (Yeshua) give them up (the Jews through their blinding), until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth (the woman of Rev 12 giving birth to the resurrected saints at Yeshua's second coming): then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel (those that are alive and remain after the resurrection will return to blinded Israel and preach the true Gospel to them after their blindness is lifted).

 

[Pilgrimer]

Please try to keep your posts shorter and to the point.

I apologize for the length of my posts, but I believe the point of these forums is to actually discuss views, not simply state what they are. And discussion involves "why" we hold a particular view, the Biblical reasons for it, and since my views are founded on rather extensive Biblical background it’s not something that can be explained by just quoting a verse or two.

I believe the Kingdom of Israel … The Talmud says … Maimon. in Misn. Sanhedrin, c. 11. sect. 1.

In a previous note, after hearing your views on the fall feasts , I said: “I know that is Rabbinic Judaism’s interpretations of the Messianic fulfillment of those feasts, but considering how dreadfully wrong they are about the Messianic fulfillment of, for example, the Passover, I would advise against adopting their doctrines on the meaning and symbolism of the feasts.

To which you responded:

“I have no idea how Rabbinic Judaism views the feasts. I don't study their writings. I have no need to. The Holy Spirit teaches me what I need to know.”

Now you turn around and to support your view of the Messianic Kingdom you quote Rabbinic Judaism’s teaching on the Messianic Kingdom.

Do you really want to base your understanding of Jesus’ kingdom on the views of people who don’t even believe Jesus is the Messiah?

I am very familiar with all the Talmudic writings, but I have studied them as background information to mainstream Jewish doctrine in the first century, and yes, the disciples believed what they had been taught by the Rabbis until they received the Holy Ghost and then they went from being students to being Apostles. And also I've studied to understand how the Torah was actually practiced during New Testament times for chronological purposes respecting for example the timing of Passover events and the other matters relating to dating events, and for those purposes the Talmuds can be very helpful. But never make the mistake of thinking that the teachings and doctrines contained therein are either correct or authoritative. These same Rabbinic views are what have made so many Jews reject Jesus, he is not at all what Rabbinism has envisioned the messiah to be nor has Jesus instituted the kingdom that Rabbinism envisioned, which is why they reject him. So you might want to rethink your views about the kingdom of Jesus and perhaps take a view that is more Gospel-oriented rather than Talmudic-oriented.

As the King of YHWH's Kingdom, the presence of Yeshua meant the Kingdom was among them, but when he ascended, so did the Kingdom.

First question, how exactly would you define "YHWH's Kingdom"? And secondly, can you support from Scripture the notion that this kingdom was present when Jesus was physically on earth but that it went back to heaven when he ascended? I must admit, those are new notions to me.

We only have the Kingdom by faith, but the day will come when we will literally enter it and inherit it. Paul said flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. First comes the resurrection, then the entrance and inheritance.

Can you explain what you mean that we “have the kingdom” and yet we haven’t entered or inherited it? And if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, what does our physical resurrection have to do with entering and inheriting it?

To me none of this makes sense so explain your reasoning behind these views.

We are keeping Passover with the new Passover Lamb. We keep it as a memorial, not a shadow.

The Old Covenant Passover is observed on Nisan 14/15 by a sacrifice and a feast observed according to the commandments of the Law. This Passover was a remembrance (memorial) of Israel being delivered from Egypt.

The New Covenant Passover is observed by what is called the “Lord’s Supper” or in High Church terms the “Eucharist,” the bread and wine or “holy communion.” Some observe it every Sunday (the practice of the early church), some observe it monthly, and some annually at Easter. But even that is an outward symbolic remembrance/memorial and without the inward reality is just a form of observance but lacking the salvific power of it. The New Covenant Passover, the bread and wine, is a remembrance/memorial of the body and blood of Jesus for deliverance from sin.

The 144,000 may very well be Jews, but they are believers in Yeshua. They are followers of the Lamb. They are the firsfruits of the wheat harvest. No unbelieving Jew can be among the 144,000. Keep in mind that the only way to enter New Jerusalem is through a gate named after a tribe.

I agree except for limiting these Christian Jews to being only the firstfruits of the wheat harvest. They are the firstfruits, period. Whether it is the firstfruits of the crops, or of the vintage, or of the firstlings of the flocks or the herds, or the firstfruits of the oil or the wine. The firstfruits of everything the land produced was a type and shadow of the first souls that were resurrected to life in the spirit and gathered into God’s household. That there were different crops and different harvest seasons only means that they were not all saved at once, for example, it wasn’t just those Christian Jews who were baptized in the spirit on the Day of Pentecost, it also included those multitudes who came to faith in the years following, and even includes those Jews who come to faith in Jesus even today. They are the firstfruits, the best, the choicest of the harvest, and they are added to that 144,000 of the children of the promise that God counts as the seed of Abraham.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

In a previous note, after hearing your views on the fall feasts , I said: “I know that is Rabbinic Judaism’s interpretations of the Messianic fulfillment of those feasts, but considering how dreadfully wrong they are about the Messianic fulfillment of, for example, the Passover, I would advise against adopting their doctrines on the meaning and symbolism of the feasts.

To which you responded:

“I have no idea how Rabbinic Judaism views the feasts. I don't study their writings. I have no need to. The Holy Spirit teaches me what I need to know.”

Now you turn around and to support your view of the Messianic Kingdom you quote Rabbinic Judaism’s teaching on the Messianic Kingdom.

Do you really want to base your understanding of Jesus’ kingdom on the views of people who don’t even believe Jesus is the Messiah?

I did not quote the Talmud as a basis for my understanding. I quoted you Scripture and then backed up my view with the Talmud to show the Jews were indeed waiting for the Kingdom to be restored to them.

I am very familiar with all the Talmudic writings, but I have studied them as background information to mainstream Jewish doctrine in the first century, and yes, the disciples believed what they had been taught by the Rabbis until they received the Holy Ghost and then they went from being students to being Apostles. And also I've studied to understand how the Torah was actually practiced during New Testament times for chronological purposes respecting for example the timing of Passover events and the other matters relating to dating events, and for those purposes the Talmuds can be very helpful. But never make the mistake of thinking that the teachings and doctrines contained therein are either correct or authoritative. These same Rabbinic views are what have made so many Jews reject Jesus, he is not at all what Rabbinism has envisioned the messiah to be nor has Jesus instituted the kingdom that Rabbinism envisioned, which is why they reject him. So you might want to rethink your views about the kingdom of Jesus and perhaps take a view that is more Gospel-oriented rather than Talmudic-oriented.

The fact that Yeshua said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power", in response to them asking if he was going to restore the Kingdom at that time, tells me the disciple view was correct. It just wasn't to be at that time, but at the time the Father wills it to be so.

First question, how exactly would you define "YHWH's Kingdom"? And secondly, can you support from Scripture the notion that this kingdom was present when Jesus was physically on earth but that it went back to heaven when he ascended? I must admit, those are new notions to me.

Can you explain what you mean that we “have the kingdom” and yet we haven’t entered or inherited it? And if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, what does our physical resurrection have to do with entering and inheriting it?

To me none of this makes sense so explain your reasoning behind these views.

Everything we have now whether it be a resurrection, eternal life, the Kingdom, etc., is by faith. We dwell in the Kingdom now in a spiritual way by faith. We hope for the reality to come. YHWH's Kingdom is a literal Kingdom that will rule the world with Yeshua as its King and his disciples as co-rulers. It is a Kingdom with Torah as its law that all citizens will abide by. We, as Paul preached, must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). I believe we enter it by faith in Yeshua. He is the door/gate into the spiritual Kingdom, but it is only after much tribulation that we literally enter the literal Kingdom. It is something we inherit upon our resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50). Peter said if we are diligent to make our calling and election sure, then "an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Yeshua Messiah" (2 Peter 1:10-11).

I agree except for limiting these Christian Jews to being only the firstfruits of the wheat harvest. They are the firstfruits, period. Whether it is the firstfruits of the crops, or of the vintage, or of the firstlings of the flocks or the herds, or the firstfruits of the oil or the wine. The firstfruits of everything the land produced was a type and shadow of the first souls that were resurrected to life in the spirit and gathered into God’s household. That there were different crops and different harvest seasons only means that they were not all saved at once, for example, it wasn’t just those Christian Jews who were baptized in the spirit on the Day of Pentecost, it also included those multitudes who came to faith in the years following, and even includes those Jews who come to faith in Jesus even today. They are the firstfruits, the best, the choicest of the harvest, and they are added to that 144,000 of the children of the promise that God counts as the seed of Abraham.

I disagree with all of this. There are ONLY 288,000 firstfruits unto YHWH and the Lamb. They are wheat and fulfill the shadow of Shavuot which ONLY concerns the wheat harvest. The rest of believers belong to the main wheat harvest.

 

[Pilgrimer]

The fact that Yeshua said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power", in response to them asking if he was going to restore the Kingdom at that time, tells me the disciple view was correct. It just wasn't to be at that time, but at the time the Father wills it to be so.

But why base your understanding of the whole kingdom concept on an assumption that the disciples were talking about the restoration of the Rabbinic ideal? Because there’s a lot more in the Scripture about this whole idea of the “restoration/reconstitution/regeneration” of the Davidic rule than just that one question posed by the disciples, which in itself doesn’t even explain what they had in their minds, whether they were speaking of Rabbinism’s earthly kingdom or if they were speaking of the spiritual kingdom and dominion that Jesus had spent 3 ½ years teaching about.

Here’s a good study on this verse and I hope you will take a few minutes to look it over and give it some honest consideration. We have been talking all this time about the new birth/spiritual resurrection into the spiritual kingdom of God over which Jesus reigns but suddenly it’s as if none of that has any bearing on the reign of Jesus and his kingdom.

Sermons From Acts - The Restored Kingdom (1:6-7)

Everything we have now whether it be a resurrection, eternal life, the Kingdom, etc., is by faith.

I agree, those of us who are in Christ have been raised from spiritual death to spiritual life and we now dwell in God’s spiritual kingdom of Heaven. We are still alive in bodies of flesh so we only see the spiritual kingdom “through a glass, darkly,” (1 Corinthians 13:12) but nevertheless, even while living in these, fallen, mortal bodies God has already “delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” (Colossians 1:13)

So we are already dwelling in the kingdom of God’s Son, the kingdom of the Messiah, and as Paul teaches a little later in that chapter of Colossians, what remains is for the indwelling presence of God’s Son (“Christ in you = the hope of being glorified 1:27) to be “manifest” in our flesh in the day when Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent to redeem the creation and usher in the new heavens and earth and that eternal state of immorality where there is no more death or suffering or pain. But that physical presence and the physical redemption of the creation and of our bodies won't be the beginning of Jesus' kingdom, it will be the culmination of his kingdom and his reign when he delivers the kingdom back up to the Father and will once more himself be subject to the Father. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

We dwell in the Kingdom now … We hope for the reality to come. YHWH's Kingdom is a literal Kingdom … Yeshua … is the door/gate into the spiritual Kingdom … we literally enter the literal Kingdom …

Your answers are rather confusing. So there are two kingdoms? A spiritual kingdom we dwell in now, and a literal kingdom we will physically dwell in one day? Which one is the “messianic” kingdom?

I disagree with all of this. There are ONLY 288,000 firstfruits unto YHWH and the Lamb. They are wheat and fulfill the shadow of Shavuot which ONLY concerns the wheat harvest. The rest of believers belong to the main wheat harvest.

I assume you meant 144,000.

But Pentecost did not ONLY concern the wheat harvest. Pentecost is of course Greek and literally means “fiftieth,” because it was the 50th day after the wave-sheaf offering on the Sunday after Passover.

But in Hebrew this festival was called the “feast of weeks” because it properly closed the seven weeks of the grain harvest which began with the dedication of the harvest with the presentation of the first omer wave-sheaf offering on the Sunday after Passover and the weeks of grain harvest concluded (Pentecost was also commonly called the “feast of conclusion”) with the thank-offering of the two wave-loaves of the wheat harvest 50 days later.

I think if you try to limit the typology of the “firstfruits” to just the wheat harvest you are losing a lot what these things has to teach us.

For example, Pentecost is anciently associated with the giving of the Law of Mt. Sinai, and just as the grain harvest dedication which began at Passover was not completed until Pentecost, so too Israel’s deliverance from Egypt concluded with the giving of the Law, and the fulfillment of that shadow is that the sacrifice of Jesus at Passover was completed in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

So to separate the wave-loaves at Pentecost from the Passover and the intervening harvest weeks is to lose sight of how they are connected in the times and seasons of the land of Israel and what that means for the church.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

You mean the part about the feet of Jesus literally standing on the mount of Olives in the day when the nation of Israel would be divided and the righteous would receive salvation and the sinners would be consumed by God’s wrath?

Yes.

One sunny spring morning, just days before Jesus would be arrested and crucified, he sat on the slopes of the Mt. of Olives (Messiah on the Mt. of Olives) and told the disciples that the temple and all it’s beautiful buildings would be completely demolished, not one stone left standing upon another. And when they questioned him when that would be and what sign would there be that Messiah had come, Jesus laid out for them the events that would occur over the next 40 years as signs that Jesus is the Messiah.

That there would arise false Christs who would deceive many (history records that there were, even the Scripture talks about some of them and in fact the leaders of the Zealot factions that brought about the war and destruction made messianic claims one even having a “throne” placed in the Temple where he set up his armed camp and was proclaimed the “Deliverer,” even having coins minted to celebrate the “Deliverance of Jerusalem”); that there would be wars and uprisings (there were) and natural catastrophes (there were, the famines that occurred in the days of Claudius Caesar -in Rome 41-42A.D., in Judaea in 45 A.D. and to which Lukes refers in Acts 11:28, in Greece in 50 A.D. and again in Rome in 52 A.D.). But these were only the beginning of sorrows, things would get much, much worse.

The disciples would be persecuted and even killed and hated for the name of Jesus and families would be divided and people would betray one another to death. But the Good News of the Kingdom would be preached in all the world (it was, the Apostles were driven by persecution out of the ancient homeland into the nations of the world and this testimony is given of these brave evangelists, that they had “turned the world upside down” with the preaching of the Gospel). Then the end came.

Jesus told his disciples that when they saw Jerusalem compassed with armies, everyone in Judaea should flee, because there would be a time of tribulation so great and terrible that no one would be left alive if God had not shortened the days (and it was, the siege of Jerusalem is the only time in recorded history that a people stubbornly chose cannibalism over surrender as Josephus records that a woman of Davidic descent became so crazed at the loss of her infant due to the famine in the city that she cooked and ate her own child and when the Zealots smelled cooking meat and broke into her home even these heartless murderers and thieves who had reduced the people to such dire straights were sickened and left the woman to her unholy feast).

“And it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God … the Lord thy God shall smite thee with a consumption (and their flesh shall consume away, and their eyes shall consume away, and their tongue shall consume away) … and thy carcase shall be meat unto all the fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away (Jeremiah 7:33 etc.), and all these curses shall come upon thee, and they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder … And the Lord shall bring a nation against thee, as swift as the eagle, a nation of fierce countenance … and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates … And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord they God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straightness, wherewith thy enemies shall distress thee Deuteronomy 28).

It was in the days of the first coming of Jesus that the faithful Jews (the children of the freewoman, New Covenant Jews) were saved, and it was also when the wrath of God was poured out on the apostate Jews (the children of the bondwoman, the Old Covenant Jews) in such a terrible vengeance that had God not shortened the days no Jews would have been left alive. But for the sake of the Christian Jews those days were shortened. (This is all Scripture which I assume you are familiar with).

So as not to make this excruciatingly long I’ll save the subject of the two women who represent the two covenants in Scripture for another time.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

But why base your understanding of the whole kingdom concept on an assumption that the disciples were talking about the restoration of the Rabbinic ideal? Because there’s a lot more in the Scripture about this whole idea of the “restoration/reconstitution/regeneration” of the Davidic rule than just that one question posed by the disciples, which in itself doesn’t even explain what they had in their minds, whether they were speaking of Rabbinism’s earthly kingdom or if they were speaking of the spiritual kingdom and dominion that Jesus had spent 3 ½ years teaching about.

Here’s a good study on this verse and I hope you will take a few minutes to look it over and give it some honest consideration. We have been talking all this time about the new birth/spiritual resurrection into the spiritual kingdom of God over which Jesus reigns but suddenly it’s as if none of that has any bearing on the reign of Jesus and his kingdom.

Sermons From Acts - The Restored Kingdom (1:6-7)

I have no problem believing in a spiritual Kingdom with Yeshua reigning. Why do you have a problem with a literal Kingdom to come? Your link was not helpful.

I agree, those of us who are in Christ have been raised from spiritual death to spiritual life and we now dwell in God’s spiritual kingdom of Heaven. We are still alive in bodies of flesh so we only see the spiritual kingdom “through a glass, darkly,” (1 Corinthians 13:12) but nevertheless, even while living in these, fallen, mortal bodies God has already “delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.” (Colossians 1:13)

BY faith. We will literally enter his literal Kingdom upon our resurrection.

So we are already dwelling in the kingdom of God’s Son, the kingdom of the Messiah, and as Paul teaches a little later in that chapter of Colossians, what remains is for the indwelling presence of God’s Son (“Christ in you = the hope of being glorified 1:27) to be “manifest” in our flesh in the day when Jesus returns at the 2nd Advent to redeem the creation and usher in the new heavens and earth and that eternal state of immorality where there is no more death or suffering or pain. But that physical presence and the physical redemption of the creation and of our bodies won't be the beginning of Jesus' kingdom, it will be the culmination of his kingdom and his reign when he delivers the kingdom back up to the Father and will once more himself be subject to the Father. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

The culmination will not come until a thousand years after Yeshua's second coming.

Your answers are rather confusing. So there are two kingdoms? A spiritual kingdom we dwell in now, and a literal kingdom we will physically dwell in one day? Which one is the “messianic” kingdom?

There are not two Kingdoms. They are both the Messianic Kingdom. It starts out a spiritual Kingdom and culminates a literal Kingdom.

I assume you meant 144,000.

I meant 288,000 to fulfill the type of David's kingdom.

But Pentecost did not ONLY concern the wheat harvest. Pentecost is of course Greek and literally means “fiftieth,” because it was the 50th day after the wave-sheaf offering on the Sunday after Passover.

But in Hebrew this festival was called the “feast of weeks” because it properly closed the seven weeks of the grain harvest which began with the dedication of the harvest with the presentation of the first omer wave-sheaf offering on the Sunday after Passover and the weeks of grain harvest concluded (Pentecost was also commonly called the “feast of conclusion”) with the thank-offering of the two wave-loaves of the wheat harvest 50 days later.

I think if you try to limit the typology of the “firstfruits” to just the wheat harvest you are losing a lot what these things has to teach us.

For example, Pentecost is anciently associated with the giving of the Law of Mt. Sinai, and just as the grain harvest dedication which began at Passover was not completed until Pentecost, so too Israel’s deliverance from Egypt concluded with the giving of the Law, and the fulfillment of that shadow is that the sacrifice of Jesus at Passover was completed in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

So to separate the wave-loaves at Pentecost from the Passover and the intervening harvest weeks is to lose sight of how they are connected in the times and seasons of the land of Israel and what that means for the church.

I understand that Pentecost is tied to Passover. That does not change the fact that we are dealing with two different firstfruits and two different harvests. The firstfruits offered near Passover were of barley. Once the offering was accepted/received, the main barley harvest began. It ended at Pentecost. Then a new firstfruits offering was made of wheat. Once that was accepted/received, the main wheat harvest would begin and end before Sukkot. The two wave loaves offered on Pentecost are "the firstfruits (of the wheat harvest) unto YHWH" (Leviticus 23:17) and "for the priest" (Leviticus 23:20). The 144,000 are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (the priest)" (Revelation 14:4). That group in Rev 14:4 fulfills one wave loaf. The group in Rev 7 fulfills the other loaf totally 288,000 to fulfill Davids kingdom type in which he had 24,000 right hand men serving him through the 12 months of the year totaling 288,000. King Yeshua will also have his 288,000 right hand men that "follow the Lamb wherever he goes" (Revelation 14:4).

 

[Pilgrimer]

I have no problem believing in a spiritual Kingdom with Yeshua reigning. Why do you have a problem with a literal Kingdom to come?

Because the 1000-year Messianic kingdom is God’s pre-existing, eternal Kingdom of Heaven during the period of time when Jesus is seated on the throne with the Father and the Father has made everything in heaven and on earth subject to His Son. It is limited in time because the day will come when Jesus will have subdued all his enemies and will deliver the eternal kingdom back up to the Father so that God “may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

Thus the Kingdom of Heaven, being by its very nature a spiritual kingdom, is not and never will be a literal, earthly kingdom. So the whole idea of a future, 1000-year earthly messianic kingdom is simply not true.

Which means the Heavenly Kingdom of God is the fulfillment of everything the Law and Prophets foretold. So your insistence that some of the holy days have not been fulfilled and should still be observed according to the commandments of the Law is not true, and is in fact a denial of much of the person and work of Jesus and the liberty we have been blessed with through his finished work.

Again, Jesus did not say the Law and Prophets would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away, obviously, because it is self-evident that everything that pertained to observance of the Law was destroyed and yet heaven and earth have not changed. What Jesus said was that not one jot or tittle would pass away until ALL was fulfilled.

The birth of Jesus was the beginning of the fulfillment, his death and resurrection culminating in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and ingathering of the saints into God’s Kingdom was the fulfillment of all the promises of blessing.

But even though the promised blessings were fulfilled in the beginning of the Gospel, not one jot or tittle of the Law and Prophets passed away, they continued to exist and be observed just as they had been for over five hundred years, until the final jots and tittles were fulfilled, those which foretold the final judgment of the Law and the outpouring of the wrath of God, when that generation was held accountable for all the righteous blood that had been shed since the beginning of time. Those were the final jots and tittles of the Law and once they were fulfilled, in the final 7-years (70th week) God had allotted to Israel, then it all passed away, in the final horrific 7-year war.

So that’s why I have a problem with the notion of a future, earthly messianic kingdom, because its not true and it misses the whole point that the judgment and wrath that was visited on Israel in the last days of the Old Covenant dispensation and the complete destruction of everything that pertained to Old Covenant worship is proof that Jesus is the Messiah and confirms that God has made a New Covenant!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

Because the 1000-year Messianic kingdom is God’s pre-existing, eternal Kingdom of Heaven during the period of time when Jesus is seated on the throne with the Father and the Father has made everything in heaven and on earth subject to His Son. It is limited in time because the day will come when Jesus will have subdued all his enemies and will deliver the eternal kingdom back up to the Father so that God “may be all in all.” 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

Thus the Kingdom of Heaven, being by its very nature a spiritual kingdom, is not and never will be a literal, earthly kingdom. So the whole idea of a future, 1000-year earthly messianic kingdom is simply not true.

Which means the Heavenly Kingdom of God is the fulfillment of everything the Law and Prophets foretold. So your insistence that some of the holy days have not been fulfilled and should still be observed according to the commandments of the Law is not true, and is in fact a denial of much of the person and work of Jesus and the liberty we have been blessed with through his finished work.

Again, Jesus did not say the Law and Prophets would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away, obviously, because it is self-evident that everything that pertained to observance of the Law was destroyed and yet heaven and earth have not changed. What Jesus said was that not one jot or tittle would pass away until ALL was fulfilled.

The birth of Jesus was the beginning of the fulfillment, his death and resurrection culminating in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and ingathering of the saints into God’s Kingdom was the fulfillment of all the promises of blessing.

But even though the promised blessings were fulfilled in the beginning of the Gospel, not one jot or tittle of the Law and Prophets passed away, they continued to exist and be observed just as they had been for over five hundred years, until the final jots and tittles were fulfilled, those which foretold the final judgment of the Law and the outpouring of the wrath of God, when that generation was held accountable for all the righteous blood that had been shed since the beginning of time. Those were the final jots and tittles of the Law and once they were fulfilled, in the final 7-years (70th week) God had allotted to Israel, then it all passed away, in the final horrific 7-year war.

So that’s why I have a problem with the notion of a future, earthly messianic kingdom, because its not true and it misses the whole point that the judgment and wrath that was visited on Israel in the last days of the Old Covenant dispensation and the complete destruction of everything that pertained to Old Covenant worship is proof that Jesus is the Messiah and confirms that God has made a New Covenant!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Well, it is obvious we are going in circles. If you choose to disbelieve in a Millennial Kingdom to come and choose to believe everything in the Law and the Prophets is fulfilled, have at it. I'll stick to my view.

proof that Jesus is the Messiah and confirms that God has made a New Covenant!

I'm not sure why you put this in bold since I believe the same (except that the Messiah's name is not "Jesus").