Upcoming Holy Days

[gadar perets]

Gadar perets, in the midst of this debate I don't think you've ever laid out your full case for how the Day of Atonement foreshadows the resurrection. I also haven't found yet where you lay out all your proofs for how Booths is a foreshadowing of the millennium (if that's what your position was, which I think I recall reading somewhere).

If you could, think you cold post it here or possibly in a new thread? I would like to read and consider it.

Paul, writing many years after YHWH’s Holy Days were supposedly fulfilled and done away with, said those days still existed as shadows of things that would come in his future. These shadows portray the reality of YHWH’s plan of salvation for mankind. In other words, each appointed time or Holy Day depicts an aspect of YHWH’s plan that will be fulfilled in our future. An example of a shadow / reality would be animal sacrifices which were a shadow of the true sacrifice of Yeshua the Messiah. Once the reality, Yeshua’s death, was accomplished or fulfilled the shadow ceased to continue. They were shadows that were fulfilled in Paul’s past. Since Paul spoke of the Holy Days as unfulfilled shadows, they will not be totally fulfilled and cease until the reality has come in the future.

Day of Atonement – Yeshua’s return/Resurrection of the dead in him

The atonement has been totally fulfilled by Yeshua’s one time sacrifice for sin, however, there remains one aspect of this day that has not been fulfilled. It was on this day (the tenth day of the seventh month) that the “trumpet of the Jubilee” was blown as we read in Leviticus 25:8-9;

“And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall you make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.”​

I believe Yeshua will return at the sound of the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15, the same trumpet as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. I believe that trumpet is the trumpet of the Jubilee. The Jubilee signaled the time when liberty was proclaimed throughout the land and every man returned to his own family (Leviticus 25:10). When Yeshua returns at the sound of the Jubilee trumpet on the Day of Atonement, he will set believers who are captives of death free. They will be granted liberty and they will return to their own family. Since YHWH is their Father, they will return to His family of believers, not their own unbelieving families. That believers are held as prisoners/captives in the grave can be seen by the fact that Yeshua has the keys to unlock those graves (Revelation 1:18).

Leviticus 25:10 also states that every man will return to his possessions in the year of Jubilee. Where are the possessions of believers that have died? Are they not our treasures stored in heaven? We will receive them upon our resurrection unto eternal life.

Feast of Tabernacles – Millennium

Leviticus 23:39 – “Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep a feast unto YHWH seven days:”​

After the harvest of souls is complete or after the final agricultural harvest is complete and the fruit of the land (true believers) is gathered or resurrected, the millennium will begin which is the reality of the shadow of this Feast.

“Thou shall observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou has gathered in thy corn and thy wine: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates. Seven days shall thou keep a solemn feast unto YHWH thy Elohim in the place which YHWH shall choose: because YHWH thy Elohim shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice.” (Deuteronomy 16:13-15).​

It is a time of rejoicing for those in Messiah as they see the fruit of their labors over the course of their walk with Yeshua. All the seeds they ever planted, all the toil and hardships they underwent to further the Kingdom of YHWH is now reaped and brought into YHWH’s barn. They will now live forever in YHWH’s Kingdom.

The Feast of Tabernacles is an extended Feast (seven days). This would represent the extended period of the Millennium just as the extended Feast of Unleavened Bread represents the entire life of the believer as we become unleavened.

 

[gadar perets]

Yes, that rule. I think you are taking the Old Testament things being shadows too literally. The temple and its furnishings and ministry were not actual shadows in the sense of being a dark area that the light is blocked from shining on. That would rob the Law of the light it provided to God’s people, as you said, the Law was a light to their path, the only light they had, a dim and shadowy light in comparison to the True Light, but the only light the people of God had at the time. In Hebrews 10:1 Paul said the Law had a shadow of good things to come, so to insist that this means the Law was a dark area the light was blocked from cannot be correct. The things of the Law weren’t shadows in that literal sense, they were shadows (skia 4639) in the sense that they were an “adumbration,” something represented only in outline, thus a vague or shadowy symbol or outline that foreshadowed (predicted) future things or events.

You're harping on the word "dark" from Webster's dictionary definition just to be argumentative. Fine. My point was exactly what you wrote in your last sentence above ("thus a vague or shadowy symbol or outline"). Something difficult to discern.

In Hebrews 9:24 Paul calls these earthly things “figures of the true” (antitupos 499), something that corresponds to an anti-type, a representative, a counterpart.

Exactly my point. While they were existing as shadows, they were figures of the true things that did not even exist yet.

And in Hebrews 9:23 Paul calls these earthly things “patterns of things in the heavens” (hupodeigma 5262), which means an exhibit for imitation or warning, and figuratively means a specimen or, again, adumbration-something represented only in outline.

The temple furnishings were patterns, not shadows.

I have to disagree. Every Sabbath keeper I have ever spoken with says that, but then turns around and claims that, because they obey the Sabbath commandment, they are therefore obedient to God and not guilty of breaking the Sabbath commandment. That is what justified by the works of the Law means, that you are just and innocent before God because you obey the commandments.

Not so. Justified by the works of the Law means you are seeking to be righteous through obeying the Law. However, that can't happen unless the Law is kept perfectly.

I believe you are a brother in Christ, so I would like to speak very plainly. The purpose of the Sabbath was not to provide physical rest for our weary bodies or that of our animals. God provided that to us on a daily basis, that's what sleep is for. The Sabbath is God’s rest. In six days God created the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested. God did not rest because he was weary. God rested on the seventh day because His work was finished.

You do realize that there are actually ten different Sabbaths in the Scriptures that were all types and figures that teach us different aspects of our salvation. And in some ways the most important is the seventh day sabbath, because it teaches us about God finishing his work and resting and allowing His people to join Him in His rest. That was a type of Jesus and his work, his perfect obedience to every jot and tittle of God’s law to be that perfect, sinless, acceptable sacrifice. That’s why, before he commended his spirit to the Father and died, Jesus’ last words were, “It is finished.” The impossibly heavy yoke of living up to the righteousness required by the Law was fulfilled, perfectly. He was obedient, even to the death. And when his work was finished, he laid down his life.

And those of us who are in Christ, we have entered into and joined him in His rest, because the works are finished, all the works are finished, not some of the works and the rest of the works we have to do.

Yes, Messiah's work was finished and he entered into the ultimate Sabbath rest. Our work was just beginning when his ended. That is why it is said of the saints in Revelation 14:13, "that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Just as Yeshua kept the Sabbath throughout his time of work on earth, we continue to keep the Sabbath throughout our time of work on earth.[/QUOTE]

 

[Hidden In Him]

Paul, writing many years after YHWH’s Holy Days were supposedly fulfilled and done away with, said those days still existed as shadows of things that would come in his future. These shadows portray the reality of YHWH’s plan of salvation for mankind. In other words, each appointed time or Holy Day depicts an aspect of YHWH’s plan that will be fulfilled in our future. An example of a shadow / reality would be animal sacrifices which were a shadow of the true sacrifice of Yeshua the Messiah. Once the reality, Yeshua’s death, was accomplished or fulfilled the shadow ceased to continue. They were shadows that were fulfilled in Paul’s past. Since Paul spoke of the Holy Days as unfulfilled shadows, they will not be totally fulfilled and cease until the reality has come in the future.

Day of Atonement – Yeshua’s return/Resurrection of the dead in him

The atonement has been totally fulfilled by Yeshua’s one time sacrifice for sin, however, there remains one aspect of this day that has not been fulfilled. It was on this day (the tenth day of the seventh month) that the “trumpet of the Jubilee” was blown as we read in Leviticus 25:8-9;

“And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall you make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.”​

I believe Yeshua will return at the sound of the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15, the same trumpet as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. I believe that trumpet is the trumpet of the Jubilee. The Jubilee signaled the time when liberty was proclaimed throughout the land and every man returned to his own family (Leviticus 25:10). When Yeshua returns at the sound of the Jubilee trumpet on the Day of Atonement, he will set believers who are captives of death free. They will be granted liberty and they will return to their own family. Since YHWH is their Father, they will return to His family of believers, not their own unbelieving families. That believers are held as prisoners/captives in the grave can be seen by the fact that Yeshua has the keys to unlock those graves (Revelation 1:18).

Leviticus 25:10 also states that every man will return to his possessions in the year of Jubilee. Where are the possessions of believers that have died? Are they not our treasures stored in heaven? We will receive them upon our resurrection unto eternal life.

Feast of Tabernacles – Millennium

Leviticus 23:39 – “Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the fruit of the land, you shall keep a feast unto YHWH seven days:”​

After the harvest of souls is complete or after the final agricultural harvest is complete and the fruit of the land (true believers) is gathered or resurrected, the millennium will begin which is the reality of the shadow of this Feast.

“Thou shall observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou has gathered in thy corn and thy wine: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates. Seven days shall thou keep a solemn feast unto YHWH thy Elohim in the place which YHWH shall choose: because YHWH thy Elohim shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice.” (Deuteronomy 16:13-15).​

It is a time of rejoicing for those in Messiah as they see the fruit of their labors over the course of their walk with Yeshua. All the seeds they ever planted, all the toil and hardships they underwent to further the Kingdom of YHWH is now reaped and brought into YHWH’s barn. They will now live forever in YHWH’s Kingdom.

The Feast of Tabernacles is an extended Feast (seven days). This would represent the extended period of the Millennium just as the extended Feast of Unleavened Bread represents the entire life of the believer as we become unleavened.

Blessings.

Let me just throw this out there. I think you have the Feast of Trumpets correct. It is a call to war, and this is what the Lord will be doing when the Day of the Lord commences and He returns with His angels. The sun being turned to darkness and the moon to blood is foreshadowed by the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night (The whole world being the ultimate fulfillment, and the wilderness being the shadow. Heaven being the ultimate fulfillment of the promised land, and the land of Israel being the shadow).

But the Day of Atonement and Feast of Ingathering I see differently than you. I see the Day of Atonement as corresponding with the sanctification of the bride of Christ just before His return (Revelation 19:7-9), and of Israel during their time in the wilderness as the shadow, when they ate only manna and became humbled in soul.

As for The Feast of Ingathering/Tabernacles, I think the prophetic fulfillment is the resurrection here; the harvest of souls from the earth (Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 13:47-50).

Not debating with you. Just thinking out loud, and wanting to put it down in print so I can remember. Feel free to disagree if you like. Still working through it in my head.

Thanks again for the post.

 

[Pilgrimer]

You're harping on the word "dark" from Webster's dictionary definition just to be argumentative. Fine. My point was exactly what you wrote in your last sentence above ("thus a vague or shadowy symbol or outline"). Something difficult to discern.

You are the one who offered the dictionary definition of shadow, not me. And then used that dictionary definition to make up a rule that therefore the shadow could not exist before the reality. I disagreed, but it should not be this hard to arrive at the conclusion that these earthly “shadows” were not shadows in the literal sense and therefore the laws of nature (a tree cannot cast a shadow before it exists) do not apply. If I’m being argumentative its because these things are important, we’re talking about how these earthly things foreshadowed salvation. And yes, foreshadow means to be a warning or indication of a future event, and everything in the Old Testament was a shadow in that sense.

Exactly my point. While they were existing as shadows, they were figures of the true things that did not even exist yet.

Okay, now don’t go the other extreme and insist on another rule that the shadow and the reality could not exist at the same time or that because the shadows still existed at the time Paul wrote his letter means they had not been fulfilled. These rules don’t solve problems, they create them. For example, I assume we both agree that the sacrificial death of Jesus fulfilled every sacrifice and offering of the law, and yet the sacrifices and offerings of the Law (the shadows) continued to be offered up in the Temple for another 40 years after Jesus’ death. They did not immediately stop when Christ was crucified. They didn’t “pass away” (cease) until 40 years later. Remember Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass from the law, including the jots and tittles about sacrifices, until ALL had been fulfilled. Jesus’ death was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of salvation, but there was more to be fulfilled, and it was fulfilled over the course of the next 40 years culminating with the judgment of the Law, the final jots and tittles. Then it all passed away.

But the point is that just because the sacrifices and offerings were still being made in the Temple (the shadows still existed) does not mean Jesus had not fulfilled them. And the same is true with the holy days. Just because they were still being observed does not mean they had not been fulfilled. So don't rely on that as some kind of rule to insist the feasts or some portions of the feasts have not been fulfilled.

And please don’t counter with the idea that the Old Covenant sacrifices "passed away" in the sense that they lost their efficacy at the moment of Jesus’ death. The nation of Israel remained under covenant with God until the last jots and tittles of that covenant were fulfilled and it passed away, 40 years after the New Covenant was instituted. Which allowed a whole generation of Jews to hear the Gospel and be saved before the final judgment of the Law and God poured out his wrath against those under the Law who were guilty under the Law. Only then, after the last jots and tittles were fulfilled, did all those Old Covenant shadows pass away, the sacrifices, the temple and its furnishings, the priesthood and its ministry, the feasts and holy days, and the nation of Israel itself.

Not so. Justified by the works of the Law means you are seeking to be righteous through obeying the Law. However, that can't happen unless the Law is kept perfectly.

Now that I agree with.

But the problem is that you turn around and say, “We avoid sin by obeying the law.” That is the very definition of righteousness by works of the law. You’re saying you are right with God (innocent of sin) because you obey the law.

The thing is, under the New Covenant, the WHOLE Law is fulfilled in our lives, every jot and tittle of every commandment. Jesus fulfilled it ALL. He didn’t fulfill some of it and leave the rest for us to fulfill. The Old Covenant was about obedience to the whole Law of God and the New Covenant is about fulfillment of the whole Law of God.

Rather than seeking understanding in the feasts and holy days of the Law as means to be right with God through obedience to the Law, I would suggest that you seek understanding of the shadows to edify and build up your faith in Jesus, to better comprehend the joy and blessedness of resting in His finished work.

Yes, Messiah's work was finished and he entered into the ultimate Sabbath rest. Our work was just beginning when his ended. That is why it is said of the saints in Revelation 14:13, "that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Just as Yeshua kept the Sabbath throughout his time of work on earth, we continue to keep the Sabbath throughout our time of work on earth.

Our “work” is not the works of the Law. Yes, Jesus kept the Sabbath. Jesus kept every jot and every tittle of every commandment. Perfectly. And that perfect obedience is what made him a lamb “without spot or blemish,” an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Do you really think that we are to do the same work he did? Are we to keep the laws and commandments to be an acceptable sacrifice for sin?

The “work” we are to do is to go out into the fields and bring in the harvest. To go into the world and preach the Gospel and gather in souls into God’s kingdom.

“And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.” Matthew 9:35-38

This is the work, the work of laboring in the fields to gather in the harvest, that will follow us after our deaths, for which we disciples of Jesus will receive wages:

“My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? Behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labor: other men labored, and ye are entered into their labours.” John 4:34-38

I love studying the old feasts and holy days and the times and seasons of the land with the days of sowing and reaping and rejoicing that made up the warp and woof of the daily lives of the people of God. Because of what it teaches me about the person and work of Jesus and what all that means for my relationship with him, in my own daily life. But we must be careful to avoid the temptation to mistake these things as the work we have been called to do, and on certain days take time off work and gather with our congregation and observe the commandments respecting that day and think we are doing God’s work. When there is a world out there, neighbors just outside our doors, who are dying to hear the Good News, the Gospel of Salvation.

That is God’s work we have been called to.

If we are going to follow Jesus, we have to realize that Jesus is alive, right now. And he is not still walking the dusty highways and byways of the land of Judaea and observing the commandments as in days of old. He finished that work. He is instead walking the highways and byways of our cities and towns, ministering to the poor, serving the lost, loving and leading people up out of the darkness and home.

“Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord henceforth” after the New Covenant, their souls didn’t have to wait in Abraham’s bosom for redemption to come to pass as the Old Testament saints had, those who died in the Lord after the New Covenant was instituted immediately went into the presence of God and received their reward.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

But the Day of Atonement and Feast of Ingathering I see differently than you. I see the Day of Atonement as corresponding with the sanctification of the bride of Christ just before His return (Revelation 19:7-9), and of Israel during their time in the wilderness as the shadow, when they ate only manna and became humbled in soul.

I don't see any connection. Where in the writings concerning the Day of Atonement do you see the sanctification of the bride? The bride was sanctified long before Revelation 19 (1 Corinthians 1:2; 6:11, etc.)

As for The Feast of Ingathering/Tabernacles, I think the prophetic fulfillment is the resurrection here; the harvest of souls from the earth (Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 13:47-50).

The agricultural harvest in Israel was complete before Tabernacles. So the harvest of souls should be complete before the reality of Tabernacles comes.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The bride was sanctified long before Revelation 19 (1 Corinthians 1:2; 6:11, etc.)

Not full sanctification during NT times, no. At least not in my opinion anyway. The Corinthians were riddled with sins.

Where in the writings concerning the Day of Atonement do you see the sanctification of the bride?

Well, I was reading the following on the Wiki for Yom Kippur:

According to Jewish tradition... During the Days of Awe, a Jew tries to amend his or her behavior and seek forgiveness for wrongs done against God (bein adam leMakom) and against other human beings (bein adam lechavero). The evening and day of Yom Kippur are set aside for public and private petitions and confessions of guilt (Vidui). At the end of Yom Kippur, one hopes that they have been forgiven by God. Leviticus 16:29 mandates establishment of this holy day on the 10th day of the 7th month as the day of atonement for sins. It calls it the Sabbath of Sabbaths and a day upon which one must afflict one's soul. Leviticus 23:27 decrees that Yom Kippur is a strict day of rest. Five additional prohibitions are traditionally observed, as detailed in the Jewish oral tradition (Mishnah tractate Yoma 8:1). The traditions are as follows: No eating and drinking, no wearing of leather shoes, no bathing or washing, no anointing oneself with perfumes or lotions, no marital relations. A parallel has been drawn between these activities and the human condition according to the Biblical account of the expulsion from the garden of Eden. Refraining from these symbolically represents a return to a pristine state, which is the theme of the day.

The agricultural harvest in Israel was complete before Tabernacles.

But the tabernacles were built specifically as temporary dwellings so the farmers could bring in the harvest. Not sure I follow.

 

[gadar perets]

Okay, now don’t go the other extreme and insist on another rule that the shadow and the reality could not exist at the same time or that because the shadows still existed at the time Paul wrote his letter means they had not been fulfilled. These rules don’t solve problems, they create them. For example, I assume we both agree that the sacrificial death of Jesus fulfilled every sacrifice and offering of the law, and yet the sacrifices and offerings of the Law (the shadows) continued to be offered up in the Temple for another 40 years after Jesus’ death. They did not immediately stop when Christ was crucified. They didn’t “pass away” (cease) until 40 years later. Remember Jesus said not one jot or tittle could pass from the law, including the jots and tittles about sacrifices, until ALL had been fulfilled. Jesus’ death was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise of salvation, but there was more to be fulfilled, and it was fulfilled over the course of the next 40 years culminating with the judgment of the Law, the final jots and tittles. Then it all passed away.

But the point is that just because the sacrifices and offerings were still being made in the Temple (the shadows still existed) does not mean Jesus had not fulfilled them. And the same is true with the holy days. Just because they were still being observed does not mean they had not been fulfilled. So don't rely on that as some kind of rule to insist the feasts or some portions of the feasts have not been fulfilled.

Paul said the feasts "are shadows of things to come". Therefore, when Paul wrote that the feasts had not been fulfilled yet.

And please don’t counter with the idea that the Old Covenant sacrifices "passed away" in the sense that they lost their efficacy at the moment of Jesus’ death. The nation of Israel remained under covenant with God until the last jots and tittles of that covenant were fulfilled and it passed away, 40 years after the New Covenant was instituted. Which allowed a whole generation of Jews to hear the Gospel and be saved before the final judgment of the Law and God poured out his wrath against those under the Law who were guilty under the Law. Only then, after the last jots and tittles were fulfilled, did all those Old Covenant shadows pass away, the sacrifices, the temple and its furnishings, the priesthood and its ministry, the feasts and holy days, and the nation of Israel itself.

The Sabbath, Passover, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread all existed prior to the Old Covenant, yet you include them as having passed away.

But the problem is that you turn around and say, “We avoid sin by obeying the law.” That is the very definition of righteousness by works of the law. You’re saying you are right with God (innocent of sin) because you obey the law.

No, that is what you are saying that I am saying. It is a FACT that if I do not steal, then I avoid the sin of stealing. The same holds true for any other commandment. We avoid sin by obeying the law. I said NOTHING about me being righteous because I obey the law. Nor did I say I was innocent of sin. If I break the law, I have sinned for sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

The thing is, under the New Covenant, the WHOLE Law is fulfilled in our lives, every jot and tittle of every commandment. Jesus fulfilled it ALL. He didn’t fulfill some of it and leave the rest for us to fulfill. The Old Covenant was about obedience to the whole Law of God and the New Covenant is about fulfillment of the whole Law of God.

This is so false. Yeshua fulfilled the whole law by obeying the whole law. His obedience does NOT mean we no longer have to obey. If the whole law is fulfilled, then why is Torah written in our hearts and minds? There is no purpose in that if there are no laws for us to obey. We fulfill those laws by obeying them through the Spirit's empowerment.

Rather than seeking understanding in the feasts and holy days of the Law as means to be right with God through obedience to the Law, I would suggest that you seek understanding of the shadows to edify and build up your faith in Jesus, to better comprehend the joy and blessedness of resting in His finished work.

And I suggest you stop accusing me of things I do not do.

Our “work” is not the works of the Law. Yes, Jesus kept the Sabbath. Jesus kept every jot and every tittle of every commandment. Perfectly. And that perfect obedience is what made him a lamb “without spot or blemish,” an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Do you really think that we are to do the same work he did? Are we to keep the laws and commandments to be an acceptable sacrifice for sin?

Our work includes obedience to the law among many other works. We are to do many of the works that he did and more (John 14:12), but not the work of being sacrificed for sin.

The “work” we are to do is to go out into the fields and bring in the harvest. To go into the world and preach the Gospel and gather in souls into God’s kingdom.

Yes, those and more. While we do those things, we are to obey YHWH's laws in the process. Preaching the Gospel to someone is compromised if I am going to steal from that person or commit adultery with their spouse, or cause them to work on Sabbath, or feed them swine's flesh, etc.

“And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

He did all those things while obeying the Law and so should we.

But we must be careful to avoid the temptation to mistake these things as the work we have been called to do, and on certain days take time off work and gather with our congregation and observe the commandments respecting that day and think we are doing God’s work. When there is a world out there, neighbors just outside our doors, who are dying to hear the Good News, the Gospel of Salvation.

We are to obey the commandments and preach the Gospel (Revelation 12:17; 14:12).

 

[gadar perets]

But the tabernacles were built specifically as temporary dwellings so the farmers could bring in the harvest. Not sure I follow.

The Tabernacles were built during the wilderness journey when they had no harvest. What I am saying is that the literal agricultural harvest in Israel is finished prior to the feast of Tabernacles being celebrated. Once the harvest was completed, then they celebrated the feast by giving thanks to YHWH. They left their farms and fields and made their pilgrimage to Jerusalem after they finished harvesting. So, that suggests to me that the harvest of souls will also be complete before the reality of the feast of Tabernacles comes.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Tabernacles were built during the wilderness journey when they had no harvest.

Well, that was my original understanding as well. But apparently that was only a secondary application. The primary reference appears to have been to temporary dwellings used during the harvest.

The Hebrew word sukkōt is the plural of sukkah, "booth" or "tabernacle", which is a walled structure covered with s'chach (plant material such as overgrowth or palm leaves). A sukkah is the name of the temporary dwelling in which farmers would live during harvesting, a fact connecting to the agricultural significance of the holiday stressed by the Book of Exodus. As stated in Leviticus, it is also intended as a reminiscence of the type of fragile dwellings in which the Israelites dwelt during their 40 years of travel in the desert after the Exodus from slavery in Egypt.
Sukkot - Wikipedia

 

[CoreIssue]

My understanding is the tabernacle in the wilderness and one purpose that was house the ark of the covenant.

They didn't farm during those 40 years.

 

[gadar perets]

Well, that was my original understanding as well. But apparently that was only a secondary application. The primary reference appears to have been to temporary dwellings used during the harvest.

The Hebrew word sukkōt is the plural of sukkah, "booth" or "tabernacle", which is a walled structure covered with s'chach (plant material such as overgrowth or palm leaves). A sukkah is the name of the temporary dwelling in which farmers would live during harvesting, a fact connecting to the agricultural significance of the holiday stressed by the Book of Exodus. As stated in Leviticus, it is also intended as a reminiscence of the type of fragile dwellings in which the Israelites dwelt during their 40 years of travel in the desert after the Exodus from slavery in Egypt.
Sukkot - Wikipedia

Using a sukkah as a temporary dwelling by farmers during harvesting is nowhere found in Scripture. The closest thing to it would be Jacob's sukkah that he built for his animals. Perhaps farmers did use sukkot during harvest, but since that is not mentioned in Scripture, I don't see how it can be a Biblical shadow.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Using a sukkah as a temporary dwelling by farmers during harvesting is nowhere found in Scripture. The closest thing to it would be Jacob's sukkah that he built for his animals. Perhaps farmers did use sukkot during harvest, but since that is not mentioned in Scripture, I don't see how it can be a Biblical shadow.

Well, the article is drawing a connection between the Feast of Ingathering and the other festivals in Exodus 34:22, since all three were associated with the harvest. "You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year." Chag HaAsif (חג האסיף), "the Feast of Ingathering" is used here, so there has to be a blending of the two titles to have a singular meaning, and thus I think the case is sufficient that "booths" in this context has to refer primarily to activities taking place during the harvest rather than those during the wilderness journey, when they were harvesting nothing but manna.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Paul said the feasts "are shadows of things to come". Therefore, when Paul wrote that the feasts had not been fulfilled yet.

As I pointed out in the previous note, you are using a verse to make a rule that is obviously not true. Paul also spoke of the priestly ministry in the temple in the present tense because the sacrifices and offerings were still being offered in the temple day and night: “there are priests that offer gifts according to the law, who serve unto the example, and shadow of heavenly things.” Hebrews 8:4-5

So if what you are suggesting is true, that if an earthly shadow still existed it could not have been fulfilled yet, that would mean that Jesus’ death did not fulfill the sacrifices because they still existed for 40 years after his death.

Just because the people were still observing the feasts does not mean they had not been fulfilled. They were still observing Passover but I know you would not argue that means Jesus had not fulfilled it by his sacrificial death.

Now I am not arguing that at the time the New Testament was written that everything had been fulfilled. It hadn’t. There was still more to be fulfilled. As I have stated repeatedly, Jesus himself said not one jot or tittle could pass away until ALL was fulfilled. The last jots and tittles that had to be fulfilled was the last of the harvest at the end of the civil year … the vintage.

The Sabbath, Passover, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread all existed prior to the Old Covenant, yet you include them as having passed away.

Yes, because the Scripture teaches that everything that happened in the lives of the people through whom the Promise was to come was a type and a shadow, going all the way back to the first Adam of the old creation who was made a living soul being a type of the last Adam (Jesus) of the new creation who is a quickening spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45-49

From the very beginning God foreshadowed the person and the work of Jesus, even before there was a nation of Israel or a Law Covenant between them and God.

Even the very founding of the nation of Israel was a type and shadow of the founding of the church, first with the birth of Abraham’s firstborn son (Ishmael was a type of the Old Covenant Jews – children of the bondwoman) being cast out and the younger son (Isaac was a type of the New Covenant Jews – children of the freewoman) became the heirs. Galatians 4:21-31

And then God again foreshadowed the election of his church through Jacob and Esau. If you remember Esau was the firstborn and by law was the heir, but Jacob “supplanted” Esau and received the blessing, but even more, although Esau retained the inheritance, he sold it to Jacob for a mess of pottage. Again, this was a type and shadow of the firstborn son (Old Covenant Jews) being supplanted by the younger son (New Covenant Jews) and the firstborn son selling their birthright (the inheritance of the Promise) to the younger son.

All of this was done by God to teach us and instruct us about the beginning of the church, the body of Christ, that it was those Jews who entered into the New Covenant who would be counted as the Israel of God and would be the foundation of the church, with Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone.

And historically this is precisely what happened in the days of Jesus’ coming. Those Jews who refused the Gospel and remained under the Old Covenant were disinherited and cast out while those Jews who entered into the New Covenant received the inheritance. This “remnant” of the nation are the “firstfruits” of the soul harvest of the Gospel of Salvation and the very foundation upon which the church of God is built.

No, that is what you are saying that I am saying. It is a FACT that if I do not steal, then I avoid the sin of stealing. The same holds true for any other commandment. We avoid sin by obeying the law. I said NOTHING about me being righteous because I obey the law. Nor did I say I was innocent of sin. If I break the law, I have sinned for sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

I don’t believe God sets the bar quite that low. ANYBODY, even the most morally bankrupt sinner, can avoid the sin of stealing by not stealing. But we are talking about how we believers are justified before God and what makes us righteous. You are insisting that it’s a combination of faith in Jesus on the one hand for those commandments that cannot be observed, and on the other hand avoiding sin by doing the works of the law. And that’s what obedience to the Law is, works.

And speaking of “avoiding sin,” the death and resurrection of Jesus doesn’t only save us from the wages of sin. Certainly it does save us from the guilt and penalty of sin. But it does more than that. It actually saves us from sin itself.

The letter to the Hebrews, I know some say it wasn’t written by the Apostle Paul but I believe it had to have been. This was the inspired work of a brilliant legal mind who understood the depth and richness of symbolism in the Law in the light of the Gospel and what the Law teaches us Jesus’ death actually means for us.

Look what Paul teaches us in Hebrews 9:13-14, it is so beautiful and so very, very instructive.

“For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh…”

Notice that Paul is teaching that the sacrifices of the Law only went skin deep, they only sanctified, purified, the flesh, the outward man and the actual deeds and actions of the body, and the defilements that came from physically touching dead things and physically eating unclean things. The blood of the sacrifices of the Law could only cleanse the body from bodily sins and defilement. But all those things were shadows and lessons that have something to teach us.

Then look at what Paul teaches:

“How much more shall the blood of Christ … purge your conscience from dead works to serve a living God.”

That’s where our “avoidance of sin” comes from. The blood of Jesus doesn’t just save us from the wages of sin, the blood of Jesus saves us from sin itself, from the power of sin, by reaching down into our soul and it purges and purifies our conscience (suneidesis 4893– moral consciousness or awareness, from suneido 4894 - to see completely, to understand, to become aware of and become conscious of, informed of). Because that’s where sin starts, long before it ever becomes a deed that violates the Law, sin begins in our hearts (“out of the heart flow the issues of life”-Jesus).

And the purpose of the blood of Jesus cleansing our conscience is so that we can serve a Living God, a God who is alive, and because of the blood of Jesus cleanses our innermost being, God, who is spirit, can dwell in us and we can have “communion” (communication) with God, He can speak to us and say do this and do that, go here and go there, a living God who can prick our conscience and make us aware that something is wrong, long before desires and promptings can become sinful acts.

The blood of Jesus purges our conscience, purges our awareness and understanding of sin and righteousness, something the blood of bulls and goats could never do. Those old earthly things, including that old earthly Law with it’s earthly tabernacle and earthly priests and earthly sacrifices and earthly commandments about sins of the flesh and earthly blood that could only cleanse the flesh, those were all types and shadows given to teach us about spiritual things, about blood that delivers us from the power of sin by sanctifying our conscience so that God can dwell in us and speak to us. There is power in that blood, and it’s not just skin deep, it goes to our very heart and soul where sin begins and delivers us from sin long before it becomes an outward deed.

This is so false. Yeshua fulfilled the whole law by obeying the whole law. His obedience does NOT mean we no longer have to obey.

But what are you obeying? Did God stop speaking after Mt. Sinai? Is the Law the final word of God? Did the voice of God stop with Malachi, the last of the Old Testament prophets? Or did God stop speaking when Jesus ascended? Or was it when the last of the New Testament canon was written? What exactly are we supposed to obey?

God is a living God. And God is speaking right now. “Today, if you will hear his voice. Don’t harden your heart.” The Law being written on our hearts means God speaks to us through His Law, and through His Law teaches us about things that we cannot even begin to think or imagine.

We obey the voice of God. Not as He spoke to Israel when he made covenant with them at Mt. Sinai, which covenant they broke. We obey the voice of the living God who through the New Covenant has sprinkled us with the blood of His own Son to cleanse us so that He might come into our hearts and dwell with us and speak to us, in person.

This is why we must be born again. This is why the Spirit of God must reach deep down into our inner being and raise up our dead spirit. Because God is spirit and a dead spirit cannot hear God speak.

We are entering the busy holiday season so I may be a bit slow at times to respond to your posts, but please know that while I would love to spend all my time sitting and talking about Jesus like Mary did, I must also do Martha and serve my loved ones, especially at this special season when all around me the world is celebrating the birth of the Savior.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[gadar perets]

As I pointed out in the previous note, you are using a verse to make a rule that is obviously not true. Paul also spoke of the priestly ministry in the temple in the present tense because the sacrifices and offerings were still being offered in the temple day and night: “there are priests that offer gifts according to the law, who serve unto the example, and shadow of heavenly things.” Hebrews 8:4-5

And he spoke of the feasts as shadows of future things.

So if what you are suggesting is true, that if an earthly shadow still existed it could not have been fulfilled yet, that would mean that Jesus’ death did not fulfill the sacrifices because they still existed for 40 years after his death.

You would have a case if Paul included sacrifices in his list of unfulfilled shadows, but he didn't because they were fulfilled.

Just because the people were still observing the feasts does not mean they had not been fulfilled. They were still observing Passover but I know you would not argue that means Jesus had not fulfilled it by his sacrificial death.

The believers were observing Passover, but I doubt they were killing a Passover lamb. All the holy days are to be observed, but not with animal sacrifices.

Yes, because the Scripture teaches that everything that happened in the lives of the people through whom the Promise was to come was a type and a shadow, going all the way back to the first Adam of the old creation who was made a living soul being a type of the last Adam (Jesus) of the new creation who is a quickening spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45-49

I agree there were types and shadows going back to Adam's time, but they were not part of the Old Covenant shadows you believe passed away.

I don’t believe God sets the bar quite that low. ANYBODY, even the most morally bankrupt sinner, can avoid the sin of stealing by not stealing. But we are talking about how we believers are justified before God and what makes us righteous. You are insisting that it’s a combination of faith in Jesus on the one hand for those commandments that cannot be observed, and on the other hand avoiding sin by doing the works of the law. And that’s what obedience to the Law is, works.

You are the one bringing justification/righteousness into the discussion, not me. That has nothing to do with obeying the Law. The "works of the law" are always spoken of in relation to the misuse of the Law as a means of justification. Paul has NO problem with doing the works of the Law for the right reasons.

Look what Paul teaches us in Hebrews 9:13-14, it is so beautiful and so very, very instructive.

“For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh…”

Notice that Paul is teaching that the sacrifices of the Law only went skin deep, they only sanctified, purified, the flesh, the outward man and the actual deeds and actions of the body, and the defilements that came from physically touching dead things and physically eating unclean things. The blood of the sacrifices of the Law could only cleanse the body from bodily sins and defilement. But all those things were shadows and lessons that have something to teach us.

Then look at what Paul teaches:

“How much more shall the blood of Christ … purge your conscience from dead works to serve a living God.”

That’s where our “avoidance of sin” comes from. The blood of Jesus doesn’t just save us from the wages of sin, the blood of Jesus saves us from sin itself, from the power of sin, by reaching down into our soul and it purges and purifies our conscience (suneidesis 4893– moral consciousness or awareness, from suneido 4894 - to see completely, to understand, to become aware of and become conscious of, informed of). Because that’s where sin starts, long before it ever becomes a deed that violates the Law, sin begins in our hearts (“out of the heart flow the issues of life”-Jesus).

And the purpose of the blood of Jesus cleansing our conscience is so that we can serve a Living God, a God who is alive, and because of the blood of Jesus cleanses our innermost being, God, who is spirit, can dwell in us and we can have “communion” (communication) with God, He can speak to us and say do this and do that, go here and go there, a living God who can prick our conscience and make us aware that something is wrong, long before desires and promptings can become sinful acts.

The blood of Jesus purges our conscience, purges our awareness and understanding of sin and righteousness, something the blood of bulls and goats could never do. Those old earthly things, including that old earthly Law with it’s earthly tabernacle and earthly priests and earthly sacrifices and earthly commandments about sins of the flesh and earthly blood that could only cleanse the flesh, those were all types and shadows given to teach us about spiritual things, about blood that delivers us from the power of sin by sanctifying our conscience so that God can dwell in us and speak to us. There is power in that blood, and it’s not just skin deep, it goes to our very heart and soul where sin begins and delivers us from sin long before it becomes an outward deed.

I agree except for your statement about "that old earthly Law" and "earthly commandments". The issue is about Yeshua's blood vs. animal blood. Hebrews 9:13-14 has NOTHING to do with the Ten Commandments or other commandments not related to animal sacrifices. You erroneously lump them all together.

But what are you obeying? Did God stop speaking after Mt. Sinai? Is the Law the final word of God? Did the voice of God stop with Malachi, the last of the Old Testament prophets? Or did God stop speaking when Jesus ascended? Or was it when the last of the New Testament canon was written? What exactly are we supposed to obey?

Of course He still speaks to us. That does not mean there is no more Law.

God is a living God. And God is speaking right now. “Today, if you will hear his voice. Don’t harden your heart.” The Law being written on our hearts means God speaks to us through His Law, and through His Law teaches us about things that we cannot even begin to think or imagine.

We obey the voice of God. Not as He spoke to Israel when he made covenant with them at Mt. Sinai, which covenant they broke. We obey the voice of the living God who through the New Covenant has sprinkled us with the blood of His own Son to cleanse us so that He might come into our hearts and dwell with us and speak to us, in person.

This is why we must be born again. This is why the Spirit of God must reach deep down into our inner being and raise up our dead spirit. Because God is spirit and a dead spirit cannot hear God speak.

All this is true, but it does not do away with our need to obey YHWH's laws.

 

[Pilgrimer]

And he spoke of the feasts as shadows of future things.

Paul spoke of the “holy days,” which would include the feasts and the sabbaths. And the holiest day of the calendar was the Day of Atonement, which you agree Jesus fulfilled. And Passover was a holy day which you also agree Jesus fulfilled.

Paul wasn’t saying the feasts had not been fulfilled. He is the very one who explained how Jesus’ sacrificial death fulfilled the Passover, and he is also the very one who explained how Jesus’ sacrificial death fulfilled the Day of Atonement, both of which were feasts. And he explained how Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, which was also a “holy day.” What he was saying was that the holy days (all of them, not just the feasts but the sabbaths as well) “are” shadows because they still existed in his time. We say the holy days “were” shadows because the Old Covenant observance of them has passed away. They still exist as days on the calendar, but their observance according to the Law has passed away.

You would have a case if Paul included sacrifices in his list of unfulfilled shadows, but he didn't because they were fulfilled.

You can’t separate the feasts from the sacrifices, the whole purpose of the feasts was for the people to come up to Jerusalem and offer up prescribed sacrifices and offerings, and then to “feast” on portions of those sacrifices. A feast without something to feast on is not a feast. That was what the feasts were about. That was how the people “rejoiced,” with a feast of sacrificial offerings. What is Passover without the Passover? What is Atonement without the red heifer and the goats. What was Unleavened Bread without the Korban Chagigah? The Sanhedrists were so concerned about being made unclean and not being able to eat the peace-offering on the 2nd night of Passover (male or female animal depending on wealth of offerer, poor might offer a dove, others a lamb or goat, and the wealthy a calf-fat portions to be burnt on the altar, remaining portions to be shared between priests and offerers that night for their feast) that they refused to enter the Antonio fortress that morning lest they contract Levitical defilement and be excluded from the feast they were commanded to eat that evening of the prescribed portion of the festival sacrifices. Each and every day of the feasts there were sacrifices and offerings that were required in observance of the holy day and of which the offerers were to partake of at that evening's meal. You can't separate these sacrifices from the feasts, they were the purpose of the feasts.

The believers were observing Passover, but I doubt they were killing a Passover lamb. All the holy days are to be observed, but not with animal sacrifices.

No, the believers were not observing the Old Covenant Passover, they were observing the New Covenant Passover. And we know what the New Testament believers considered necessary because they recorded it in Acts, to abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from fornication, and even abstaining from things sacrificed to idols Paul later corrected even that.

But the unbelieving Jews still observed the Passover and were in fact still sacrificing animals and sprinkling blood on the altar. Which is the point. The shadows of Jesus’ sacrifice did not pass away at the time he fulfilled them by his death. They didn’t pass away for another 40 years. So Paul saying that the holy days were shadows of things to come doesn’t mean they weren’t fulfilled, obviously, because Passover and Atonement and the sabbath were holy days and they certainly were fulfilled.

I agree there were types and shadows going back to Adam's time, but they were not part of the Old Covenant shadows you believe passed away.

But the Old Covenant was part of the Old Testament (Law and Prophets) that were fulfilled and passed away. The New Testament is the fulfillment of everything the Old Testament foretold, just as the New Covenant is the fulfillment of everything the Old Covenant promised.

And let me mention, the Old Covenant didn’t only promise blessings, the blessings that are fulfilled to those who enter into the New Covenant. The Old Covenant also promised a curse against those under the Old Covenant who would be held accountable for breaking covenant with God. That curse is what the “Day of the Lord” and the “vintage” is all about, and it was fulfilled, down to the least jot and tittle, in the 7-year war which ended the Old Covenant observance and the Jewish state. Go back and read Deuteronomy 28, 30, 31:28-32:43 and you will see the wellspring of all those later prophecies about this horrible judgment and destruction that the prophets right up through Jesus said would come upon that generation. Then you’ll get a better grasp on what the “Day of the Lord” was and what the Revelation’s apocalyptic imagery meant.

You are the one bringing justification/righteousness into the discussion, not me. That has nothing to do with obeying the Law. The "works of the law" are always spoken of in relation to the misuse of the Law as a means of justification. Paul has NO problem with doing the works of the Law for the right reasons.

Not so. Over and over again Paul contrasts the works of the law against faith in the finished work of Christ. He doesn’t compare keeping the law for the wrong reasons with keeping the law for the right reasons. He contrasts keeping the law against keeping the faith, and nowhere does he make that case more strongly than when he points out that it wasn’t “doing the works of the Law for the right reasons” that saved you was it? Then how could you think that "doing the Law for the right reasons" can now perfect you? The Law cannot finish what faith has begun.

I agree except for your statement about "that old earthly Law" and "earthly commandments". The issue is about Yeshua's blood vs. animal blood. Hebrews 9:13-14 has NOTHING to do with the Ten Commandments or other commandments not related to animal sacrifices. You erroneously lump them all together.

That’s because there is only ONE LAW! The Law of Moses. Now that Law, which God gave to Israel and which Israel covenanted with God to keep, that one Law had lots of commandments. The sacrificial ordinances are not a separate law from the festival ordinances and the festival ordinances are not a separate law from the Sabbath ordinances and they not a separate law from the Ten Commandments. They are all commandments and ordinances and statutes that make up one Law that was given by Moses whom the nation of Israel covenanted with God to keep.

Of course He still speaks to us. That does not mean there is no more Law.

Your short statements without any explanation of what you mean or reasoning on how you arrived at them leaves me to have to guess your meaning.

By saying “that does not mean there is no more Law” are you saying that means the Law no longer exists? Because I have to tell you I have numerous copies in several languages, and have seen with my own eyes the oldest existing copy among the Dead Seas Scroll documents. So no, of course the fact that God speaks to us individually, personally, does not mean there is no more Law in the sense that the Law has ceased to exist.

Not only does the Law still exist, it still serves a purpose in God’s plan of salvation, which I did point out in my previous note, that God speaks to us through the Law and uses it to teach us about what sin is, how He has effected salvation, and what it means for us. Anyone who says you can know God apart from His Word, Old and New Testaments, does not know the God that I know.

But studying the Law to better understand the things of God, which are after all spiritual in nature, is a totally different thing from “keeping the Law” as a means of serving God or being obedient to God.

All this is true, but it does not do away with our need to obey YHWH's laws.

Yes, it does. You can’t serve God through these old types and shadows. In the first place, He has made it impossible because He has removed everything that He provided for acceptable obedience to the Law. So what you are left with is a few shadows that can only partially be obeyed.

Let me ask you a question. You agree that we are no longer required to obey those commandments of the Law that have been fulfilled (sacrifices for example). So what if ALL the commandments have been fulfilled? What then? Would you still have to obey commandments that have been fulfilled?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Paul spoke of the Holy Days as unfulfilled shadows,

Scripture? NONE!

"Christ the ALL in ALL fulfilling FULLNESS of God ... WHEN GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD." Ephesians 1:20,23.

You ever believe? NEVER!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Paul said the feasts "are shadows of things to come". Therefore, when Paul wrote that the feasts had not been fulfilled yet.

Paul never said '"the feasts "are shadows of things to come"'" -- NEVER!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn

You've shown me nothing, until you've shown me Paul, wrote it; and you haven't shown me Paul wrote it although you've shown me one or a thousand 'translations'.

 

[gadar perets]

Paul spoke of the “holy days,” which would include the feasts and the sabbaths. And the holiest day of the calendar was the Day of Atonement, which you agree Jesus fulfilled. And Passover was a holy day which you also agree Jesus fulfilled.

Yeshua fulfilled the sacrifices of those days, but not everything that pertains to them. The Jubilee trumpet is yet to be blown and Yeshua's blood as the Passover Lamb provides ongoing protection from death.

Paul wasn’t saying the feasts had not been fulfilled. He is the very one who explained how Jesus’ sacrificial death fulfilled the Passover, and he is also the very one who explained how Jesus’ sacrificial death fulfilled the Day of Atonement, both of which were feasts. And he explained how Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, which was also a “holy day.” What he was saying was that the holy days (all of them, not just the feasts but the sabbaths as well) “are” shadows because they still existed in his time. We say the holy days “were” shadows because the Old Covenant observance of them has passed away. They still exist as days on the calendar, but their observance according to the Law has passed away.

You neglect the words "to come". You say "were" and Paul says "are" "to come".

You can’t separate the feasts from the sacrifices, the whole purpose of the feasts was for the people to come up to Jerusalem and offer up prescribed sacrifices and offerings, and then to “feast” on portions of those sacrifices. A feast without something to feast on is not a feast. That was what the feasts were about. That was how the people “rejoiced,” with a feast of sacrificial offerings. What is Passover without the Passover? What is Atonement without the red heifer and the goats. What was Unleavened Bread without the Korban Chagigah? The Sanhedrists were so concerned about being made unclean and not being able to eat the peace-offering on the 2nd night of Passover (male or female animal depending on wealth of offerer, poor might offer a dove, others a lamb or goat, and the wealthy a calf-fat portions to be burnt on the altar, remaining portions to be shared between priests and offerers that night for their feast) that they refused to enter the Antonio fortress that morning lest they contract Levitical defilement and be excluded from the feast they were commanded to eat that evening of the prescribed portion of the festival sacrifices. Each and every day of the feasts there were sacrifices and offerings that were required in observance of the holy day and of which the offerers were to partake of at that evening's meal. You can't separate these sacrifices from the feasts, they were the purpose of the feasts.

Are thoughts you were against making man made rules. I have no problem keeping the feasts in a meaningful way with having sacrifices.

No, the believers were not observing the Old Covenant Passover, they were observing the New Covenant Passover.

You just got done saying we can't celebrate Passover without the Passover. Now you say we can since the believers in Acts did so. If there is a New Covenant Passover, then there is a NC Feast of Unleavened Bread, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, etc.

But the Old Covenant was part of the Old Testament (Law and Prophets) that were fulfilled and passed away. The New Testament is the fulfillment of everything the Old Testament foretold, just as the New Covenant is the fulfillment of everything the Old Covenant promised.

Now you are telling the Prophets have passed away as well??

Not so. Over and over again Paul contrasts the works of the law against faith in the finished work of Christ. He doesn’t compare keeping the law for the wrong reasons with keeping the law for the right reasons. He contrasts keeping the law against keeping the faith, and nowhere does he make that case more strongly than when he points out that it wasn’t “doing the works of the Law for the right reasons” that saved you was it? Then how could you think that "doing the Law for the right reasons" can now perfect you? The Law cannot finish what faith has begun.

There you go again putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said doing the Law perfects us.

Your short statements without any explanation of what you mean or reasoning on how you arrived at them leaves me to have to guess your meaning.

And your statements are so long and drawn out that is tedious to read them. I thought my statement were to the point.

By saying “that does not mean there is no more Law” are you saying that means the Law no longer exists? Because I have to tell you I have numerous copies in several languages, and have seen with my own eyes the oldest existing copy among the Dead Seas Scroll documents. So no, of course the fact that God speaks to us individually, personally, does not mean there is no more Law in the sense that the Law has ceased to exist.

I meant, "no more Law to obey".

Not only does the Law still exist, it still serves a purpose in God’s plan of salvation, which I did point out in my previous note, that God speaks to us through the Law and uses it to teach us about what sin is, how He has effected salvation, and what it means for us.

Believers still sin. The Law gives us the knowledge of those sins. The Holy Spirit does as well, but not if we have been taught a certain law no longer needs to be obeyed. If, for example, you were falsely taught working on the 7th day is now permissible, you will not believe the Spirit when it tells you it is not permissible.

But studying the Law to better understand the things of God, which are after all spiritual in nature, is a totally different thing from “keeping the Law” as a means of serving God or being obedient to God.

Throughout the OT, to "obey" meant to keeping the laws YHWH commanded. Now you say "obey" does not mean keeping the Law. I'll stick to Scripture.

Let me ask you a question. You agree that we are no longer required to obey those commandments of the Law that have been fulfilled (sacrifices for example). So what if ALL the commandments have been fulfilled? What then? Would you still have to obey commandments that have been fulfilled?

The majority of commandments have no fulfillment that leads to them passing away. Only those that were shadows or prophetic have fulfillments. For example, Thou shalt not commit adultery has no fulfillment. Neither do any of the other nine. The two greatest have no fulfillment. They were fulfilled in the sense that Yeshua kept them perfectly, but not to the point of them passing away.

 

[gadar perets]

Paul never said '"the feasts "are shadows of things to come"'" -- NEVER!

Then what did he say in Colossians 2:17?