“And the Father who sent me has himself testified about me. You people have never heard his voice nor seen his form at any time.”
(John 5:37, NET)
(John 5:37, NET)
Voice and form
- Thread starter Matthias
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Sure , speaking to the Jew's gathered before him at that time .
Another member introduced this verse as a witness in response to a question I had posed. He then asked if I thought Jesus lied. (What a question to ask a disciple of the Messiah!)
Jesus as a witness. That’s powerful.
Was Jesus speaking to unbelieving Jews or believing Jews?
Was Jesus witnessing for them or against them?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This is also backed up by John in 1:18….but depending on the translation, and how much tap dancing has to be done to promote a certain doctrine, we have the 1995 NASB saying….
”No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB1995)
Yet the later revised version says…
“No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.” (NASB)
Why the discrepancy?
There is no “son” in that verse in Greek. The term used by the 1995 version, “monogenes theos”, is true to the Greek, (it means “only begotten god”) but the revised version borrows from translations that more closely use wording that favor the doctrine. Plainly, there has been an effort to distort the text.
If “no one has seen God at any time”….then that statement stands alone…..thousands saw Jesus…and heard his voice.
The changing of “only begotten God” to “God the only Son” is a clear tampering with Scripture to promote something it never taught, until the 4th century Roman “church” made it official doctrine.
It is also obvious that there would be a difficulty trying to explain how God can be “begotten”, which is a term used to describe a father begetting children. A father always exists before the one he begets. The begotten one is a result of the father’s begetting.
The deeper you go, the more difficulties you see that are hidden in the teaching of accepted church “theology”, rather than the teaching of Scripture.…which is what Jesus used in his ministry.
Be students of God’s word…and do not go beyond what it teaches.
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Unbelieving Jews .
Against them , they were without a witness for God .
John5:38
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It is when you consider that God’s law required at least two witnesses to any judicial matter….
Rev 3:14 is where Jesus identified himself as “the Faithful and True Witness”.
Expanding on John ch 5, what did Jesus say to those Jews who rejected him?
John 5:30-39….
“I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
31 “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the witness he bears about me is true. 33 You have sent men to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 However, I do not accept the witness from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 That man was a burning and shining lamp, and for a short time you were willing to rejoice greatly in his light. 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, these works that I am doing, bear witness that the Father sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. You have neither heard his voice at any time nor seen his form, 38 and you do not have his word residing in you, because you do not believe the very one whom he sent.”
Jesus said that John B was a witness about who he was, and initially John was accepted as the one who would be like “Elijah” in “preparing the way“ for the Messiah. But Jesus didn’t have to depend on mere men to bear witness about him….he said that the works he did were more than adequate to serve as a powerful witness that his God and Father had sent him.
Added to that was the proclamation that God himself made concerning his son at his baptism….
So three acceptable witnesses attested to his credentials as Messiah….John B, Jesus’ powerful works, and confirmation from God himself.
Those Jews knew that they were hard pressed to deny those miraculous works that he performed….so they tried to imply that he got his power from the devil….and that performing those works on the Sabbath was breaking God’s law…..
Any excuse to deny him.
They should have heard the Father’s voice and seen the Father’s form / image. The Messiah’s word to them was a rebuke.
“These words you hear me say are not my own. They belong to the Father who sent me” (John 14:24).
”If you have seen me, you have seen the Father” (John 14:9).
The Father’s voice and form / image was standing right in front of them. They heard but didn’t have ears to hear with understanding. They saw but didn’t have eyes to see with perception. Their hearts and minds were hardened against the Father and against the one who was sent by him.
The rebuke Jesus delivered was, and is, to all unbelievers in this present evil age.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Can you tell us how it is that all who claim these “senses” with “eyes” and “ears” of understanding…and with “experiences in spirit”, do not all hold to the same beliefs?
If one is “born again”……how do they know? And how can they be found in the realm of Christendom, if they cannot agree on many things? (1 Cor 1:10) Does God’s spirit divide people? Or does it unite them…..?
If this “spiritual” experience is not uniform across all denominations then, can it be from God…..or can it more likely be from the trickster who wants you to believe in an “experience” that not all can quite explain the purpose of?
Why do Christians need to be “born again”? What does it result in?
PS95
Well-Known Member
Because all do not continue to rely on the Spirit to teach them.
Ohhh God makes you know in your spirit which testifies with His Spirit. It's not a question of am I ? You know.
This is the same question as above.
Classic Jw question. If you pray and ask God for His Holy Spirit will He give you a serpent? You tell me.
If you want to see the Kingdom of God you must be born again.
It results in a thread gone quickly off topic. Such is the nature of internet discussion forums.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It does….but questions are how we get answers….I was responding to a poster who made statements that needed explaining. All spiritual discussions are interrelated. Answering questions, sets things out in a straightforward manner.…especially beliefs that form the basis for all that we believe.
Examining the foundations of a building often tells you how strong the whole structure resting on it, is.…and how likely it is to withstand a hurricane….?
A good topic for a new thread, wouldn’t you agree?
Then let’s discuss Jezebel’s choice of makeup - in another thread devoted to the topic. (What breed of dog gobbled her up? Did her makeup upset their stomachs? I can tell you that it turned mine.)
“Pop a JW“ threads are all the rage these days. They shouldn’t, imo, be in every thread about every topic.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Apparently…..it’s a bit like going to the refrigerator because you’re making a salad but being told that you’re only allowed lettuce and no salad dressing….what is your definition of a salad?
Lettuce is the main ingredient, but not the only one.…and the dressing just makes it more tasty….
All threads diverge into mini-topics within the topic…..don’t they? Are we then to have the ‘topic police’ descend upon us with a big stick?
PS95
Well-Known Member
Jane, That is a good description. Lettuce but no dressing- very good- That is how I see the JW teaching about the other sheep-Apparently…..it’s a bit like going to the refrigerator because you’re making a salad but being told that you’re only allowed lettuce and no salad dressing….what is your definition of a salad?
Lettuce is the main ingredient, but not the only one.…and the dressing just makes it more tasty….
All threads diverge into mini-topics within the topic…..don’t they? Are we then to have the ‘topic police’ descend upon us with a big stick?
that leaves the vast majority of JWs being told that they can not be born again.
There is no such thing as a Christian who is not born again. It's redundant to say "born again Christian".
That's a HUGE part of what makes the JW religion so wrong. When JWs closed heaven up in 1935 and made the great crowd separate as the other sheep... what do they do now that the JW leaders decided to ditch the 1935 heaven closed teaching?
How can they still hold to the great crowd of other sheep if heaven never really closed in 1935?
How can you accept both teachings as coming from God?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
duck and weave….I’ve practiced….Similar threads
