Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

A lot of personal opinion and conjecture there.

<<<To take the name of the forbidden tree, “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 2:9), to mean that Adam and Eve had no understanding of good and evil is a misunderstanding.>>>

Gen.3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Tong
R4485

I don't believe Adam was so ignorant that when God gave him the command to not eat from the forbidden tree, that he didn't understand that it was a good thing to be obedient to that command or a bad thing if he was disobedient. Adam and Eve both understood the command about the forbidden tree. This fact is brought out when Eve said to the serpent they would die if they ate from the forbidden tree. Also the serpent said to her that she wouldn't die if she ate from the forbidden tree. So Eve knew that death was a bad thing because if she didn't believe that, then when the serpent said she wouldn't die, none of that would have made any sense to her, nor would it make any sense to her when the serpent said they would be like God in knowing good and evil if she didn't understand the concept of good and evil. I think you're wrong on how you're reasoning on the scriptures. The True God isn't unreasonable as you're making him out to be with how you reason on the scriptures.

 

[Kermos]

Thus endeth this foolishness.

But you did add to Scriptuire youreself in writing about Paul in Romans 8:22. Unless you can prove that Adam subjected all of creation ot hope:

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Man = creature (3rd word in Romans 8:20, Adam was a man)

Him = Jesus (15th word in Romans 8:20)

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The creature DOES NOT deliver itself.

Jesus delivers the creature "from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God" according to His choosing.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

the whole creation = all things that come into being which includes Adam

until now = evey moment, every event progressively until now which includes Adam eating of the tree forbidden as food

YOu added to teh word of God and we now know who you are. Two can play that chhildish game.

Your denouncement is meritless because, as the following shows, your heart calls the Apostle Paul a liar.

Again, your writings reveal the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18), that is your self-will reviling of Majesty on High (2 Peter 2:9-10)

Your heart says "Adam" (Genesis 2:7) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "tree" (Genesis 2:9) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "ate" (Genesis 3:6) is not an event that occurred prior to "now", and Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "not willingly" occurs without application to "the whole creation" and "until now", and Paul wrote "not willingly" and "the whole creation" and "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "Adam" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "tree" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "ate" as occurring prior to "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "not willingly" in Paul's application to "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

And, this, sir, is Romans 8:20-22 in context.

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Therefore, the kind of "will" that Adam was created with, if any kind, is irrelevant to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God has me proclaim the Truth (John 14:6) to you, and there is no deceit in the Truth.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbiddenl for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

Freewill was given since dawn of time and man had freewill that's why it made msitake just like you Kermos. Learn from your mistakes and find God's way not your own.

With each passing post that you make, you intensify your foolishness for the mouth of the fool gushes folly (Proverbs 15:2).

Your post is a whole lot of useless "word of @grumix8", which is not life.

In truth, the Word of God is life (John 14:6).

Now, that is yet another post on page 50 with the "word of grumix8", and not one scripture quotation to support freewill
(just like this post shows one more similar posts on page 46 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 45 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 43 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 35 which has a predecessor this post shows two more similar posts on page 33 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 32 which has a predecessor of this post shows four more similar posts on page 28 which has a predecessor of this post showing you did the same on page 23).

That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!

Your thoughts that you control you being saved from the wrath of God in your freewill keep heaping up into your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

A word about your thoughts. It is written, “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,’ declares the LORD. ‘For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God’s thoughts with man’s thoughts, and that is foolishly evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

I know you believe that you're speaking the truth and that you believe God told you to tell me these things, but not only do I not agree with you in what you believe to be the truth but also I don't believe it was God who told you to tell me these things.

I also told you that there are Jews who are christians that have their hebrew Bibles which are in the Hebrew language and when it comes to the scriptures at John 8:58 they use two Hebrew words, "ani hayithi" which when translated into english mean, "I have been," they don't use the one hebrew word, "Ehyeh" which is the Hebrew word used at Exodus 3:14 which translated into english means "I AM." So they do not make out that at John 8:58 Jesus was trying to imitate Jehovah God and give us the impression that he himself was YHWH God.

The closing two words of the Hebrew Bible New Testament for John 8:58 are:

• אני = ani = I (Strong's 589)
• הוא = hu or hi = he (Strong's 1931)

"I He" is the literal translation for the closing two words in the Hebrew Bible New Testament for John 8:58, so in the context of the verse "I AM" is appropriate.

You cite an unknown source.

Truthfully, even in the Hebrew Bible New Testament of John 8:58, He (Hu or Hi) exists moment before moment without start, that is being created.

As I said when John wrote his gospel he didn't quote the Septuagint Greek translation, which as you know is a Greek translation of the old testament.

I am going to test the spirit of your writing.

"He said, 'I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, "MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD," as Isaiah the prophet said'" (John 1:23, NASB, NT - Greek to English).

"A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God'" (Isaiah 40:3, NASB, , OT - Hebrew to English)

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God" (Isaiah 40:3, Brenton Septuagint Translation, OT - Greek to English)

The very first Old Testament quotation in the Gospel of John is from the Septuagint.

You have a spirit of deception.

So when John was inspired to write John 8:58 he didn't quote the scripture of Exodus 3:14, if he had, he would have wrote the phrase that was there at Exodus 3:14 which is, "ego eimi oh On."

John accurately recorded the Word of God (John 1:14), and John's representation is "ego eimi" (I AM) for Jesus Christ's words in "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I AM" (ego eimi) says Jesus recorded in John 8:58 which contextually sufficiently indicates reference to "ego eimi ho on" recorded in Exodus 3:14.

Instead John used the Greek word "ego eimi" and if John had used this Greek word, "ego eimi" does not have any introductory material ahead of it then yes "ego eimi" should be translated as, "I AM" but at John 8:58 the Greek word "ego eimi" does have introductory material ahead of it so the more accurate translation of "ego eimi" in this grammatical setting is, "I am he" or "I have been" depending on the context.

"Before Abraham was" (John 8:58) is "introductory material" for the phrase "I AM" (John 8:58); moreover, Jesus declared the phrase "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) about two thousand years after Abraham was born.

The Greek word for "he" is not there in John 8:58, and the Greek word "eimi" translates to English as "am", not "have been", but truly "am".

"I AM" is the accurate translation for "ego eimi".

I have always said that the Only Begotten Son of God existed before the angels or anything else which was created, but I also understand that at Revelation 3:14 it says that the Only Begotten Son of God is the beginning of creation. So he had a beginning at some point. The True God, he has no beginning.

"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being" (John 1:3) the Apostle John wrote of Jesus Christ.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14) the Apostle John recorded of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus Christ refers to Himself as the "Beginning of the creation of God", then He declares that He is Founder and Head in the Assembly of God (Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:18).

When Jesus Christ refers to Himself as the "Beginning of the creation of God", then He declares that He is Creator of the whole creation (John 1:3), and the True God is Creator (Genesis 1:1).

When you wrote "he had a beginning at some point", then you make Jesus Christ out to be a created being, that is a creature, an angel in Watchtower parlance, such that Jesus Christ "apart from Him"self, He "came into being" which is you not receiving the Apostle John's saying recorded in John 1:3.

As for whether or not Adam had free will, the scriptures show we do. For Adam to be created in God's image and likeness he would have to have free will, otherwise Adam wouldn't be in God's image or likeness.

God has the knowledge of good and evil for God caused the existence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:9).

Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil until after he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22).

Adam was not created in the likeness nor image of God with respect to the knowledge of good and evil as shown right there.

No Word of God states man was created with a free-will; therefore, when you wrote "For Adam to be created in God's image and likeness he would have to have free will" evidences that you add to the Word of God.

It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Adam, therefore mankind, because of their love for the true God, could/can choose to intelligently praise YHWH God for his wonderful qualities and support YHWH God sovereignty.
So Adam, therefore mankind, has the capacity to choose what they are going to do or how they're going to act in different situations that come along in their life.

You just added "Adam had a choice" into the Word of God recorded in Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24.

Furthermore, you just subtracted the Apostle Paul's writing that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree because Paul conveyed that nothing in creation willingly subjected anyting in creation to futility with Paul's writing of "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20).

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

I believe Adam knew it was wrong to disobey God when God commanded him, to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When the Angel who became Satan used a serpent said to Eve that they would be like God's, knowing good and evil, it suggests something more than just helpful knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. Like I said Adam knew it was wrong to disobey God. It's also reasonable to believe that Adam knew death was a bad thing. The Bible never says that Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong. In fact, Genesis 3:2–3 is clear that they did understand the difference between right and wrong; Eve knew God had instructed her and Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit (cf. Genesis 2:16–17). To take the name of the forbidden tree, “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 2:9), to mean that Adam and Eve had no understanding of good and evil is a misunderstanding. In the Bible, the word knowledge often means “experience," so while it is true that, prior to the fall, Adam and Eve had no experience of evil, they did understand the concept of good and evil perfectly well, or they would not have known what obedience to God’s instructions meant.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil basically represents Gods right to decide what is in the best interests of mankind(good) and what isn't in the best interests of mankind(bad). So to know “good and evil” as Jehovah and his only-begotten Son know it would seem to mean to know good and evil for yourself, that is, you make the decision of what is good and what is evil, you judge what is right and what is wrong. Adam and Eve were no longer theocratic, they no longer looked to God as the Universal Sovereign over all creatures, they no longer accepted him as the one to determine right and wrong. They were going to determine for themselves what they were going to do on the earth, and not let God be the Supreme Arbiter.

A lot of personal opinion and conjecture there.

<<<To take the name of the forbidden tree, “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 2:9), to mean that Adam and Eve had no understanding of good and evil is a misunderstanding.>>>

Gen.3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

Tong
R4485

I don't believe Adam was so ignorant that when God gave him the command to not eat from the forbidden tree, that he didn't understand that it was a good thing to be obedient to that command or a bad thing if he was disobedient. Adam and Eve both understood the command about the forbidden tree. This fact is brought out when Eve said to the serpent they would die if they ate from the forbidden tree. Also the serpent said to her that she wouldn't die if she ate from the forbidden tree. So Eve knew that death was a bad thing because if she didn't believe that, then when the serpent said she wouldn't die, none of that would have made any sense to her, nor would it make any sense to her when the serpent said they would be like God in knowing good and evil if she didn't understand the concept of good and evil. I think you're wrong on how you're reasoning on the scriptures. The True God isn't unreasonable as you're making him out to be with how you reason on the scriptures.

Tong2020, you told BARNEY BRIGHT that about "Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” (Genesis 3:22) then BARNEY BRIGHT told you "I don't believe Adam was so ignorant that when God gave him the command to not eat from the forbidden tree, that he didn't understand that it was a good thing to be obedient to that command or a bad thing if he was disobedient".

Tong2020, you wrote "A lot of personal opinion and conjecture there" about BARNEY BRIGHT's writing, and you wrote accurately.

Tong2020, you convey that BARNEY BRIGHT adds to and/or subtracts from scripture.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

With that being written, your "personal opinion and conjecture" is that Adam ate willingly of the tree".

Both of you convey the opposite of the Apostle Paul, so you convey that Paul is a liar.

Both of you add to and/or subtract from scripture.

Both of you think your word is so very important that you dictate to God as you add to and subtract from scripture.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

I will refrain from getting into that here in this thread.

But let me just say this. The indisputable point in that passage is that Jesus Christ preexistent before Abraham.



<<<As for whether or not Adam had free will, the scriptures show we do.>>>

Agree.

<<<For Adam to be created in God's image and likeness he would have to have free will, otherwise Adam wouldn't be in God's image or likeness.>>>

Not necessarily. That line of reasoning is problematic with regards Adam created without having knowledge of good and evil.

Tong
R4471

I know you believe that you're speaking the truth and that you believe God told you to tell me these things, but not only do I not agree with you in what you believe to be the truth but also I don't believe it was God who told you to tell me these things.

I also told you that there are Jews who are christians that have their hebrew Bibles which are in the Hebrew language and when it comes to the scriptures at John 8:58 they use two Hebrew words, "ani hayithi" which when translated into english mean, "I have been," they don't use the one hebrew word, "Ehyeh" which is the Hebrew word used at Exodus 3:14 which translated into english means "I AM." So they do not make out that at John 8:58 Jesus was trying to imitate Jehovah God and give us the impression that he himself was YHWH God.

As I said when John wrote his gospel he didn't quote the Septuagint Greek translation, which as you know is a Greek translation of the old testament. So when John was inspired to write John 8:58 he didn't quote the scripture of Exodus 3:14, if he had, he would have wrote the phrase that was there at Exodus 3:14 which is, "ego eimi oh On." Instead John used the Greek word "ego eimi" and if John had used this Greek word, "ego eimi" does not have any introductory material ahead of it then yes "ego eimi" should be translated as, "I AM" but at John 8:58 the Greek word "ego eimi" does have introductory material ahead of it so the more accurate translation of "ego eimi" in this grammatical setting is, "I am he" or "I have been" depending on the context.

I have always said that the Only Begotten Son of God existed before the angels or anything else which was created, but I also understand that at Revelation 3:14 it says that the Only Begotten Son of God is the beginning of creation. So he had a beginning at some point. The True God, he has no beginning.

As for whether or not Adam had free will, the scriptures show we do. For Adam to be created in God's image and likeness he would have to have free will, otherwise Adam wouldn't be in God's image or likeness. Adam, therefore mankind, because of their love for the true God, could/can choose to intelligently praise YHWH God for his wonderful qualities and support YHWH God sovereignty.
So Adam, therefore mankind, has the capacity to choose what they are going to do or how they're going to act in different situations that come along in their life.

Tong2020, you profoundly wrote "The indisputable point in that passage is that Jesus Christ preexistent before Abraham".

See, BARNEY BRIGHT, that EVERY point in time prior to Abraham was occupied by Jesus Christ.

The moment before the very first thing that God created anything, the moment before that, Jesus Christ is "I AM" (John 8:58).

BARNEY BRIGHT, you cannot specify a point in time that Jesus Christ was nonexistent before Abraham's birth without you nullifying the Word of God "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

THE FOCAL POINT I WANT TO SETTLE ON WITH BARNEY BRIGHT IS THE TRUTH THAT JESUS CHRIST EXISTS IN EVERY MOMENT BEFORE ABRAHAM'S BIRTH.

It appears, Tong2020, that you may have picked up on when I wrote this in an earlier post.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Tong2020, you told BARNEY BRIGHT that about "Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” (Genesis 3:22) then BARNEY BRIGHT told you "I don't believe Adam was so ignorant that when God gave him the command to not eat from the forbidden tree, that he didn't understand that it was a good thing to be obedient to that command or a bad thing if he was disobedient".

Tong2020, you wrote "A lot of personal opinion and conjecture there" about BARNEY BRIGHT's writing, and you wrote accurately.

Tong2020, you convey that BARNEY BRIGHT adds to and/or subtracts from scripture.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

With that being written, your "personal opinion and conjecture" is that Adam ate willingly of the tree".

Both of you convey the opposite of the Apostle Paul, so you convey that Paul is a liar.

Both of you add to and/or subtract from scripture.

Both of you think your word is so very important that you dictate to God as you add to and subtract from scripture.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

Well the scriptures say regarding sin, that Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived. 1Timothy 2:14 The scriptures show us that Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't, but it's very clear that Adam did eat of the forbidden tree. So since Adam wasn't deceived how do you suppose that Adam came to have eaten of the forbidden tree then? The only answer to that question I can find is that he ate of the forbidden tree willingly. Also at Romans 8:20-22 Adam isn't being discussed here. I do understand that you're taking the first part of verse 20 of chapter 8 of Romans which is:
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will or not willingly," and you're saying this is speaking of Adam. However this isn't speaking of Adam. The creation that's being spoken of here is the offspring of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve offspring is born in sin, the offspring of Adam and Eve have no control or choice about being born in sin.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Tong2020, you profoundly wrote "The indisputable point in that passage is that Jesus Christ preexistent before Abraham".

See, BARNEY BRIGHT, that EVERY point in time prior to Abraham was occupied by Jesus Christ.

The moment before the very first thing that God created anything, the moment before that, Jesus Christ is "I AM" (John 8:58).

BARNEY BRIGHT, you cannot specify a point in time that Jesus Christ was nonexistent before Abraham's birth without you nullifying the Word of God "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

THE FOCAL POINT I WANT TO SETTLE ON WITH BARNEY BRIGHT IS THE TRUTH THAT JESUS CHRIST EXISTS IN EVERY MOMENT BEFORE ABRAHAM'S BIRTH.

It appears, Tong2020, that you may have picked up on when I wrote this in an earlier post.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

I have already told you regarding John 8:58 that John wasn't quoting the Septuagint or referring back to Exodus 3:14 when he wrote John 8:58. You wish to not believe that then that's your choice. The Hebrew Bible of the Jews when translating John 8:58 uses two hebrew words which mean when translated into English is, "I have been," these Hebrew Bibles don't use the one Hebrew word which is used at Exodus 3:14 which when translated to English means, "I AM."
I can point to Revelation 3:14 which shows that the Only Begotten Son of God had a beginning.

 

[Kermos]

Well the scriptures say regarding sin, that Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived. 1Timothy 2:14 The scriptures show us that Eve was deceived but Adam wasn't, but it's very clear that Adam did eat of the forbidden tree. So since Adam wasn't deceived how do you suppose that Adam came to have eaten of the forbidden tree then? The only answer to that question I can find is that he ate of the forbidden tree willingly.

Not being deceived DOES NOT EQUAL willingly.

Being deceived DOES NOT EQUAL willingly.

On the other hand, not being willingly deceived DOES EQUAL willingly; furthermore, being willingly deceived DOES EQUAL willingly.

See this deductive logic statement.

Adam was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14), and a person not being deceived is inequal with a person being willingly deceived, so Adam could not willingly have eaten of the tree forbidden as food (Romans 8:20-22).

1 Timothy 2:14 fits right in with where Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree forbidden as food subjecting creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22, as this post in this thread shows).

Also at Romans 8:20-22 Adam isn't being discussed here. I do understand that you're taking the first part of verse 20 of chapter 8 of Romans which is:
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will or not willingly," and you're saying this is speaking of Adam. However this isn't speaking of Adam. The creation that's being spoken of here is the offspring of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve offspring is born in sin, the offspring of Adam and Eve have no control or choice about being born in sin.

Your heart says "Adam" (Genesis 2:7) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "tree" (Genesis 2:9) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "ate" (Genesis 3:6) is not an event that occurred prior to "now", and Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "not willingly" occurs without application to "the whole creation" and "until now", and Paul wrote "not willingly" and "the whole creation" and "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "Adam" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "tree" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "ate" as occurring prior to "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "not willingly" in Paul's application to "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

And, this, sir, is "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) in context.

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Your writings reveal the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18), that is your self-will reviling of Majesty on High (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

I have already told you regarding John 8:58 that John wasn't quoting the Septuagint or referring back to Exodus 3:14 when he wrote John 8:58.

Jesus speaks "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), so Jesus speaks "ego eimi" (I AM) in John 8:58 referring back to "ego eimi" in the Septuagint's original Greek for Exodus 3:14.

You wish to not believe that then that's your choice. The Hebrew Bible of the Jews when translating John 8:58 uses two hebrew words which mean when translated into English is, "I have been,"

You deceive when you write 'John 8:58 uses two hebrew words which mean when translated into English is, "I have been,"' because God had me show you previously that the closing two words of the Hebrew Bible New Testament for John 8:58 are:

• אני = ani = I (Strong's 589)
• הוא = hu or hi = he, she, it, one (Strong's 1931)

"I One" is the literal translation for the closing two words in the Hebrew Bible New Testament for John 8:58, so in the context of the verse "I AM the One" (John 8:58, Hebrew Bible) is appropriate to "I AM the One" (Exodus 3:14).

You cite an unknown source because the Hebrew Bible does not translated to "I have been" as you wickedly claim.

Truthfully, even in the Hebrew Bible New Testament of John 8:58, Jesus the One (Hu or Hi) exists moment before moment without start never being created.

these Hebrew Bibles don't use the one Hebrew word which is used at Exodus 3:14 which when translated to English means, "I AM."

The Gospel of John and the Septuagint precisely match with "ego eimi" (I AM) occurring in John 8:58 and "ego eimi" occurring in Exodus 3:14; moreover, New Testament speakers, including Jesus and John, used the Septuagint verbiage when quoting the TaNaKah.

Back to testing your spirit based on your writing of "when John wrote his gospel he didn't quote the Septuagint Greek translation" in an earlier post.

"He said, 'I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, "MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD," as Isaiah the prophet said'" (John 1:23, NASB, NT - Greek to English).

"A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God'" (Isaiah 40:3, NASB, , OT - Hebrew to English)

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God" (Isaiah 40:3, Brenton Septuagint Translation, OT - Greek to English)

The very first Old Testament quotation in the Gospel of John is from the Septuagint.

You have a spirit of deception.

I can point to Revelation 3:14 which shows that the Only Begotten Son of God had a beginning.

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14) the Apostle John recorded Jesus Christ's words.

"The Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14) is Jesus referring to Himself when He says "the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again" (Luke 24:7).

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45), so "the Son of Man" died on the cross for the forgiveness of the sins of the members of the Assembly of God, so "the Son of Man" is "The Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14), that is the First of the Assembly of God.

Jesus Christ is truly man (Luke 1:26-33), SON OF MAN, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28), SON OF GOD.

The phrase you wrote of "the Only Begotten Son of God" does not occur in Revelation 3:14.

The phrase you wrote of "Son of God had a beginning" does not occur in Revelation 3:14.

"The Beginning" (Revelation 3:14) is a definite article followed by a noun, but your thoughts fail to match because you wrote "a beginning".

When you wrote "I can point to Revelation 3:14 which shows that the Only Begotten Son of God had a beginning", then you wickedly have Jesus Christ contradict Jesus Christ Who says "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

No matter what point in time that you, BARNEY BRIGHT, claim Jesus Christ was created (began), then Jesus Christ exists sixty seconds before your point of beginning (creation) of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ exists always (John 8:58, Matthew 28:20).

The doctrines of demons includes that Jesus Christ was created thus being a creature not Creator.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you BARNEY BRIGHT have no gospel at all.

You are profoundly confused, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You think your word is so very important that you dictate to God as you add to and subtract from scripture.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

I have already told you regarding John 8:58 that John wasn't quoting the Septuagint or referring back to Exodus 3:14 when he wrote John 8:58. You wish to not believe that then that's your choice. The Hebrew Bible of the Jews when translating John 8:58 uses two hebrew words which mean when translated into English is, "I have been," these Hebrew Bibles don't use the one Hebrew word which is used at Exodus 3:14 which when translated to English means, "I AM."
I can point to Revelation 3:14 which shows that the Only Begotten Son of God had a beginning.

Jesus Christ says "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

No matter what point in time that you, BARNEY BRIGHT, claim Jesus Christ was created (began), then Jesus Christ exists sixty seconds before your point of beginning (creation) of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ exists always (John 8:58, Matthew 28:20).

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you BARNEY BRIGHT have no gospel at all.

You think your word is so very important that you dictate to God as you add to and subtract from scripture.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Not being deceived DOES NOT EQUAL willingly.

See this deductive logic statement.

Adam was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14), and deception involves the "will" of a person, so Adam could not willingly have eaten of the tree forbidden as food.

1 Timothy 2:14 fits right in with where Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree forbidden as food subjecting creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22, as this post in this thread shows).



Your heart says "Adam" (Genesis 2:7) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "tree" (Genesis 2:9) is not part of "the whole creation", and Paul wrote "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "ate" (Genesis 3:6) is not an event that occurred prior to "now", and Paul wrote "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

Your heart says "not willingly" occurs without application to "the whole creation" and "until now", and Paul wrote "not willingly" and "the whole creation" and "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "Adam" which is a person as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "tree" which is a thing as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "ate" which is an action in time of "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

In "Adam ate not willingly of the tree", Paul covered "not willingly" in Romans 8:20-22.

Paul most certainly included "Adam ate not willingly of the tree" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "Adam" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "tree" as part of "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "ate" as occurring prior to "until now" in Romans 8:20-22.

See that you call Paul a liar about "not willingly" in Paul's application to "the whole creation" in Romans 8:20-22.

And, this, sir, is "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) in context.

The Apostle Paul conveys that Adam ate not willingly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil subjecting the whole creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22).

Your writings reveal the treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18), that is your self-will reviling of Majesty on High (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You proclaim "the word of you". For you adulterate the Word of God with "choose" such that it is no longer the Word of God.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

At Romans 8:19-24 it says, "The eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the first fruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. For we were saved in this hope.”

The word creation doesn't include Adam. God didn't subject futility on Adam and Eve when he began creating mankind. The futility that YHWH God subjected to creation is based on hope to be free of enslavement to corruption. God didn't first enslave mankind with corruption then come up with a plan to free us from that enslavement to corruption. At Genesis 3:14,15 when God was addressing the serpent and speaking of any kind of hope it was concerning Adam and Eve offspring, YHWH God wasn't addressing Adam and Eve themselves. Now I know that some people, I don't know if you are one, believes that the woman being talked about at Genesis 3:14,15 is Eve. However the scriptures say that there would be enmity between the woman and her seed and the serpent and his seed. Eve didn't have any enmity with the serpent, she believed the serpent so she believed that God was a liar and a bad ruler or sovereign. She also acted as the serpents prophetess when she induced Adam to join her. So I stand by what I said, both Adam and Eve have free will, they both made a choice that God didn't want for them, no matter how much some think he did want that choice for Adam and Eve.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Jesus speaks "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), so Jesus speaks "ego eimi" (I AM) in John 8:58 referring back to "ego eimi" in the Septuagint's original Greek for Exodus 3:14.



You deceive when you write 'John 8:58 uses two hebrew words which mean when translated into English is, "I have been,"' because God had me show you previously that the closing two words of the Hebrew Bible New Testament for John 8:58 are:

• אני = ani = I (Strong's 589)
• הוא = hu or hi = he, she, it, one (Strong's 1931)

"I One" is the literal translation for the closing two words in the Hebrew Bible New Testament for John 8:58, so in the context of the verse "I AM the One" (John 8:58, Hebrew Bible) is appropriate to "I AM the One" (Exodus 3:14).

You cite an unknown source because the Hebrew Bible does not translated to "I have been" as you wickedly claim.

Truthfully, even in the Hebrew Bible New Testament of John 8:58, Jesus the One (Hu or Hi) exists moment before moment without start never being created.



The Gospel of John and the Septuagint precisely match with "ego eimi" (I AM) occurring in John 8:58 and "ego eimi" occurring in Exodus 3:14; moreover, New Testament speakers, including Jesus and John, used the Septuagint verbiage when quoting the TaNaKah.

Back to testing your spirit based on your writing of "when John wrote his gospel he didn't quote the Septuagint Greek translation" in an earlier post.

"He said, 'I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, "MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD," as Isaiah the prophet said'" (John 1:23, NASB, NT - Greek to English).

"A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God'" (Isaiah 40:3, NASB, , OT - Hebrew to English)

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God" (Isaiah 40:3, Brenton Septuagint Translation, OT - Greek to English)

The very first Old Testament quotation in the Gospel of John is from the Septuagint.

You have a spirit of deception.



"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14) the Apostle John recorded Jesus Christ's words.

"The Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14) is Jesus referring to Himself when He says "the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again" (Luke 24:7).

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45), so "the Son of Man" died on the cross for the forgiveness of the sins of the members of the Assembly of God, so "the Son of Man" is "The Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14), that is the First of the Assembly of God.

Jesus Christ is truly man (Luke 1:26-33), SON OF MAN, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28), SON OF GOD.

The phrase you wrote of "the Only Begotten Son of God" does not occur in Revelation 3:14.

The phrase you wrote of "Son of God had a beginning" does not occur in Revelation 3:14.

"The Beginning" (Revelation 3:14) is a definite article followed by a noun, but your thoughts fail to match because you wrote "a beginning".

When you wrote "I can point to Revelation 3:14 which shows that the Only Begotten Son of God had a beginning", then you wickedly have Jesus Christ contradict Jesus Christ Who says "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

No matter what point in time that you, BARNEY BRIGHT, claim Jesus Christ was created (began), then Jesus Christ exists sixty seconds before your point of beginning (creation) of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ exists always (John 8:58, Matthew 28:20).

The doctrines of demons includes that Jesus Christ was created thus being a creature not Creator.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you BARNEY BRIGHT have no gospel at all.

You are profoundly confused, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You think your word is so very important that you dictate to God as you add to and subtract from scripture.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

People certainly have the right to choose who or what they believe, but as I said, there are modern hebrew Bibles, which have been translated from Greek to Hebrew and they use two hebrew words, "ani hayithi" at John 8:58, which when translated to english means, "I have been" they don't use the one hebrew word, "Ehyeh" which is used at Exodus 3:14 and when translated into english means, "I AM."
We must remember, that when Jesus spoke to those Jews, he spoke to them in the Hebrew of his day, not in Greek. How Jesus said John 8:58 to the Jews is therefore presented to us in modern translations by Hebrew scholars who translated the Greek into the Biblical Hebrew, for example one such Hebrew Bible by, Dr. Franz Delitzsch says at John 8:58: “Before Abraham was, I have been.” others by Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsburg say at John 8:58: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.” so in both of these Hebrew translations the translators use for the expression “I have been” which like I said use two Hebrew words, both a pronoun and a verb, "ani hayithi" not the one Hebrew word, "Ehyeh," which is used at Exodus 3:14. So like I said before, they do not make out that at John 8:58 Jesus was trying to imitate YHWH God and give us the impression that he himself was YHWH.
I don't know if you're just ignorant of theses things I'm saying here or you do know and are out right lying about these Bibles existence, but I'm not a liar, these Bibles do exist, whether or not anyone agrees with them or not, is a person's choice whether they agree or not, how these Bibles are translateed. I understand people choosing to agree or disagree with something, but to call me a liar when I'm speaking the truth, that these Bibles exist. Like I said whether a person/persons agree with how they're translated or not is their choice.
English translation Bibles such as, "the Living Bible 1973 says at John 8:58, “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.” The New Living Translations says, “I existed.” The Bible in Worldwide English translates it as “I already was.” 1960, 1973 NASB had a marginal rendering of “I have been."
Now, as I said, I understand that people will choose what translations they agree with and that's fine but I have the same right to choose and if I disagree with them so what I'm just making a choice what translations I'm going to agree with just as they are doing. Now we may disagree on people's choices of what translation of the scriptures to agree with but I don't think it's appropriate for any of us to persecute by calling people names, calling them liars when all they have said was make the same choice they did about which translation they agree with. You or anyone disagree I think people can do that without calling them names or liars. There are Hebrew Bibles that have John 8:58 translated differently as, "I have been" just as there are english Bibles that have John 8:58 translated differently. You or any other person who chooses to disagree with how these Bibles translate John 8:58 is certainly their right to disagree but don't call me a liar by saying these translations don't exist. They do exist.
I'm going to go along with how the context of the scriptures are at John 8:58 and understand it was Jesus age that was being discussed, that Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham, he wasn't discussing who he was.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Kermos said:
Back to testing your spirit based on your writing of "when John wrote his gospel he didn't quote the Septuagint Greek translation" in an earlier post. Then kermos states or quotes: "He said, 'I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, "MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD," as Isaiah the prophet said'" (John 1:23, NASB, NT - Greek to English).

"A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God'" (Isaiah 40:3, NASB, , OT - Hebrew to English)

"The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God" (Isaiah 40:3, Brenton Septuagint Translation, OT - Greek to English) [/Quote\]

Kermos you're twisting what I say. I said from a previous post that at John 8:58, I wasn't talking about the whole gospel of John, but instead I said that John didn't quote the Septuagint when he wrote John 8:58 and that's exactly what I meant when I said that. Don't twist it like that. So simply understand that I mean that at the specific scripture at John 8:58 I said he wasn't quoting the Septuagint.

Kermos said:
The phrase you wrote of "Son of God had a beginning" does not occur in Revelation 3:14.
"The Beginning" (Revelation 3:14) is a definite article followed by a noun, but your thoughts fail to match because you wrote "a beginning"[/Quote\]

It was the resurrected Jesus who told John to write to the congregation in Laodicea, Asia Minor. Jesus said: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” Just because I used the phrase "Son of God had a beginning" concerning Revelation 3:14 and that the specific phrase, "Son of God had a beginning," isn't there at Revelation 3:14 that doesn't mean it's not the Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ who's speaking to John and saying he's the beginning of creation.

In the Greek text the word for “God” [Theoũ] is in the genitive case. Now in Greek as well as in English the genitive case can mean a number of different relations or connections that the word in the genitive case has to the person or thing that it modifies.
According to Dr. A. T. Robertson it can be a genitive of a number of kinds, such as the Possessive Genitive, the Attributive Genitive, the Subjective Genitive, the Objective Genitive. One Greek grammar explains the genitive of source or author by saying: “The Subjective Genitive. We have the subjective genitive when the noun in the genitive produces the action, being therefore related as subject to the verbal idea of the noun modified, for example the phrase, "the preaching of Jesus Christ at Romans 16:25. Another Greek grammar explains the sense of the subjective genitive, saying: “The SUBJECT of an action or feeling, a example of that would be the good-will of the people (that is, which the people feel).”

So the expression “the creation of God” at Revelation 3:14 could mean the creation possessed by God or belonging to God. Or, it could grammatically mean also the creation produced by God. The apostle John helps us by his writings to know which kind of genitive it is in the Greek. However, it is agreed by producers of the Greek text of the Christian Scriptures that Revelation 3:14 quoted or borrowed its Greek words from Proverbs 8:22 as translated by Charles Thomson from the Greek Septuagint Proverbs 8:22 reads: “The Lord created me, the beginning of His ways, for His works.” Certainly there the word “beginning” (Greek LXX: arkhe) does not mean Beginner, Origin or Originator. Plainly it means the first one or original one of God’s ways to be created. This same thought is conveyed in Revelation 3:14 in regard to the “beginning of the creation of God.” Hence the word “God” is in the Subjective Genitive.

 

[Kermos]

At Romans 8:19-24 it says, "The eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the first fruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. For we were saved in this hope.”

The word creation doesn't include Adam.

You wrote "The word creation doesn't include Adam", so that means you convey that Adam is not a creature; therefore, you exalt Adam to creator - you make Adam out to be a god.

BARNEY BRIGHT, your writing is against YHWH God.

God didn't subject futility on Adam and Eve when he began creating mankind. The futility that YHWH God subjected to creation is based on hope to be free of enslavement to corruption. God didn't first enslave mankind with corruption then come up with a plan to free us from that enslavement to corruption. At Genesis 3:14,15 when God was addressing the serpent and speaking of any kind of hope it was concerning Adam and Eve offspring, YHWH God wasn't addressing Adam and Eve themselves. Now I know that some people, I don't know if you are one, believes that the woman being talked about at Genesis 3:14,15 is Eve. However the scriptures say that there would be enmity between the woman and her seed and the serpent and his seed. Eve didn't have any enmity with the serpent, she believed the serpent so she believed that God was a liar and a bad ruler or sovereign.

No scripture states that Eve "believed" the serpent; therefore, your wickedly add your thoughts to scripture.

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

She also acted as the serpents prophetess when she induced Adam to join her. So I stand by what I said, both Adam and Eve have free will, they both made a choice that God didn't want for them, no matter how much some think he did want that choice for Adam and Eve.

The word "choice" never occurs in the Word of God with respect to Adam and/or Eve.

Therefore, you wickedly add to the Word of God.

It is written "Do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Liars are mentioned in relation to the new Jerusalem "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

People certainly have the right to choose who or what they believe

The Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

The Apostle Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Your thoughts are patently antichrist.

, but as I said, there are modern hebrew Bibles, which have been translated from Greek to Hebrew and they use two hebrew words, "ani hayithi" at John 8:58, which when translated to english means, "I have been" they don't use the one hebrew word, "Ehyeh" which is used at Exodus 3:14 and when translated into english means, "I AM."
We must remember, that when Jesus spoke to those Jews, he spoke to them in the Hebrew of his day, not in Greek. How Jesus said John 8:58 to the Jews is therefore presented to us in modern translations by Hebrew scholars who translated the Greek into the Biblical Hebrew, for example one such Hebrew Bible by, Dr. Franz Delitzsch says at John 8:58: “Before Abraham was, I have been.” others by Isaac Salkinson and David Ginsburg say at John 8:58: “I have been when there had as yet been no Abraham.” so in both of these Hebrew translations the translators use for the expression “I have been” which like I said use two Hebrew words, both a pronoun and a verb, "ani hayithi" not the one Hebrew word, "Ehyeh," which is used at Exodus 3:14. So like I said before, they do not make out that at John 8:58 Jesus was trying to imitate YHWH God and give us the impression that he himself was YHWH.

You claim to present relatively recent "Hebrew Bible" translations (after 1850's) from Greek to Hebrew, so your supporting translation can be treated like any other translation from Greek to another language; therefore, your supporting translation can be subjected to literary scrutiny and criticism, just like the KJV or the NLT or the NWT or the NIV or the ESV or the NASB.

After Jesus says "before Abraham was", any translation that deviates from an equivalency for the first Greek word "ego" ("I") is unfaithful to the word of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 8:58.

After Jesus says "before Abraham was", any translation that deviates from an equivalency for the second and the verse's final Greek word "eimi" ("am") is unfaithful to the word of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 8:58.

Based on your preaching, BARNEY BRIGHT, your supporting translations are unfaithful to the word of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 8:58.

Your supporting translations are deception.

You make a lie your own because your deceptive supporting translations are the treasure of your heart. See who the father of lies is.

Jesus Christ says "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

The original Greek is "ego eimi" ("I AM", John 8:58) of Jesus Christ's declaration as recorded by the Apostle John, and John is a faithful witness of Jesus Christ, so John's representation is accurate to Jesus Christ's words.

I don't know if you're just ignorant of theses things I'm saying here or you do know and are out right lying about these Bibles existence, but I'm not a liar, these Bibles do exist, whether or not anyone agrees with them or not, is a person's choice whether they agree or not, how these Bibles are translateed. I understand people choosing to agree or disagree with something, but to call me a liar when I'm speaking the truth, that these Bibles exist. Like I said whether a person/persons agree with how they're translated or not is their choice.

The natural man agrees with your supporting translations because as this post in this thread shows scripturally, the natural man precedes the spiritual man for every person.

English translation Bibles such as, "the Living Bible 1973 says at John 8:58, “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born.” The New Living Translations says, “I existed.” The Bible in Worldwide English translates it as “I already was.” 1960, 1973 NASB had a marginal rendering of “I have been."

There is a common theme among every translation that you present.

No matter what point in time that you, BARNEY BRIGHT, claim Jesus Christ was created (began), then Jesus Christ exists sixty seconds before your point of beginning (creation) of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ exists always (John 8:58, Matthew 28:20).

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you BARNEY BRIGHT have no gospel at all.

Now, as I said, I understand that people will choose what translations they agree with and that's fine but I have the same right to choose and if I disagree with them so what I'm just making a choice what translations I'm going to agree with just as they are doing. Now we may disagree on people's choices of what translation of the scriptures to agree with but I don't think it's appropriate for any of us to persecute by calling people names, calling them liars when all they have said was make the same choice they did about which translation they agree with. You or anyone disagree I think people can do that without calling them names or liars. There are Hebrew Bibles that have John 8:58 translated differently as, "I have been" just as there are english Bibles that have John 8:58 translated differently. You or any other person who chooses to disagree with how these Bibles translate John 8:58 is certainly their right to disagree but don't call me a liar by saying these translations don't exist. They do exist.
I'm going to go along with how the context of the scriptures are at John 8:58 and understand it was Jesus age that was being discussed, that Jesus was saying he existed before Abraham, he wasn't discussing who he was.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is without beginning of days or end of life (Hebrews 7:3); therefore, He exists continually prior to Abraham.

Your thoughts are out of accord with Jesus Christ, the Word of God (John 1:14).

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

Kermos you're twisting what I say. I said from a previous post that at John 8:58, I wasn't talking about the whole gospel of John, but instead I said that John didn't quote the Septuagint when he wrote John 8:58 and that's exactly what I meant when I said that. Don't twist it like that. So simply understand that I mean that at the specific scripture at John 8:58 I said he wasn't quoting the Septuagint.

Is your writing of "when John wrote his gospel he didn't quote the Septuagint Greek translation" in your post #997 congruent with your more recent writing of "I wasn't talking about the whole gospel of John" in your post #1014?

The obvious answer is NO.

Was your more recent writing "I wasn't talking about the whole gospel of John" in your post #1014 accurate to when you wrote "I have already told you regarding John 8:58 that John wasn't quoting the Septuagint" in your post #1008?

Well, your writing in your post #1008 does not state that your writing in your post #997 was in error.

Furthermore, your writing in your post #1008 reinforced the position of your writing in your post #997; in other words, your post #1008 focuses in on a specific verse as compared to the whole gospel in your post #997.

Additionally, your writing in your post #1008 does not state that the Gospel of Saint John elsewhere quoted the Septuagint.

The obvious answer is NO for the second question as well.

Now, your writing in your post #997 states the opposite of your writing in your more recent post #1014, and you blame it on me.

You lie about the first question.

You lie about the second question.

You lie.

Lord Jesus Christ says "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

You are profoundly confused, yet "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

It was the resurrected Jesus who told John to write to the congregation in Laodicea, Asia Minor.

Earlier, you wrote "So when John was inspired to write John 8:58he didn't quote the scripture of Exodus 3:14" in your post #997 as if John manipulated Jesus Christ's word.

Now, you wrote "It was the resurrected Jesus who told John" respecting Revelation 3:14 in your post #1014 as if John accurately represented Jesus Christ's word.

I suspect your natural man (1 Corinthians 2:14) self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) does that because of your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Jesus said: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” Just because I used the phrase "Son of God had a beginning" concerning Revelation 3:14 and that the specific phrase, "Son of God had a beginning," isn't there at Revelation 3:14 that doesn't mean it's not the Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ who's speaking to John and saying he's the beginning of creation.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is without beginning of days or end of life (Hebrews 7:3); therefore, He exists continually prior to Abraham.

Your thoughts are that Jesus Christ has beginning of days which is you subtracting the Hebrews 7:3 scripture - a fleshy evil thing.

In the Greek text the word for “God” [Theoũ] is in the genitive case. Now in Greek as well as in English the genitive case can mean a number of different relations or connections that the word in the genitive case has to the person or thing that it modifies.
According to Dr. A. T. Robertson it can be a genitive of a number of kinds, such as the Possessive Genitive, the Attributive Genitive, the Subjective Genitive, the Objective Genitive. One Greek grammar explains the genitive of source or author by saying: “The Subjective Genitive. We have the subjective genitive when the noun in the genitive produces the action, being therefore related as subject to the verbal idea of the noun modified, for example the phrase, "the preaching of Jesus Christ at Romans 16:25. Another Greek grammar explains the sense of the subjective genitive, saying: “The SUBJECT of an action or feeling, a example of that would be the good-will of the people (that is, which the people feel).”

So the expression “the creation of God” at Revelation 3:14 could mean the creation possessed by God or belonging to God. Or, it could grammatically mean also the creation produced by God. The apostle John helps us by his writings to know which kind of genitive it is in the Greek. However, it is agreed by producers of the Greek text of the Christian Scriptures that Revelation 3:14 quoted or borrowed its Greek words from Proverbs 8:22 as translated by Charles Thomson from the Greek Septuagint Proverbs 8:22 reads: “The Lord created me, the beginning of His ways, for His works.” Certainly there the word “beginning” (Greek LXX: arkhe) does not mean Beginner, Origin or Originator. Plainly it means the first one or original one of God’s ways to be created. This same thought is conveyed in Revelation 3:14 in regard to the “beginning of the creation of God.” Hence the word “God” is in the Subjective Genitive.

Well, BARNEY BRIGHT, take a look at "the beginning of His ways" in the Greek Septuagint Proverbs 8:22.

That "His" is the Lord YHWH.

Since you take "YHWH created me" (Proverbs 8:22) as literal, then by extension you must take it literally that YHWH has a beginning of days based upon "the beginning of His ways" (Proverbs 8:22).

You have YHWH having a beginning and/or being created and/or coming into existence out of nonexistence.

BARNEY BRIGHT, your are against YHWH God.

See Proverbs 8:22 in Hebrew and Greek:

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old" (Proverbs 8:22, NASB - Hebrew source).

"The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works." (Proverbs 8:22, Brenton Septuagint Translation - Greek source).

SOMETHING CRUCIAL ESCAPES YOUR THOUGHTS.

THE WORD "BEGINNING" IS ASSOCIATED WITH "THE LORD", "YHWH", INSTEAD OF "ME", "THE WISDOM OF GOD" (1 CORINTHIANS 1:24), IN THE GREEK LXX (SEPTUAGINT) AND HEBREW OF PROVERBS 8:22.

IN EFFECT, YOU SAY YHWH WAS CREATED FOR YOU WROTE "Plainly it means the first one or original one of God’s ways to be created" ABOUT THE WORD "BEGINNING", SO YOUR THOUGHTS ARE DEPRAVEDLY EVIL.

Proverbs 8:22 is about the fact that God possessed the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) before God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1), and Proverbs 8:22 aligns with the recorded Word of God (John 1:14) in Revelation 3:14

"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this" (Revelation 3:14) the Apostle John recorded Jesus Christ's words.

"The Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14) is Jesus referring to Himself when He says "the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again" (Luke 24:7).

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" (Mark 10:45), so "the Son of Man" died on the cross for the forgiveness of the sins of the members of the Assembly of God, so "the Son of Man" is "The Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14), that is the First of the Assembly of God.

The Greek word "arche" (Strong's 746) with it's inflections can translate to English as "initial", "beginning", "origin", "first", "chief", "rule" with variants.

WITH "THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD" (REVELATION 3:14), THE SON OF MAN DECLARES HE IS THE FIRSTBORN, BEGINNING, HEAD OF THE ASSEMBLY OF GOD (COLOSSIANS 1:15, COLOSSIANS 1:18, EPHESIANS 5:23); SIMULTANEOUSLY, THE SON OF GOD IS THE ETERNAL LORD AND EVERLASTING GOD (SEE JOHN 20:28 AND ISAIAH 9:6) AND WITHOUT BEGINNING OF DAYS OR END OF LIFE (HEBREWS 7:3).

Jesus Christ is truly man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28 - the Son of God.

The phrase you wrote of "the Only Begotten Son of God" does not occur in Revelation 3:14.

The phrase you wrote of "Son of God had a beginning" does not occur in Revelation 3:14.

"The Beginning" (Revelation 3:14) is a definite article followed by a noun, but your thoughts fail to match because you wrote "a beginning".

When you wrote "I can point to Revelation 3:14 which shows that the Only Begotten Son of God had a beginning", then you wickedly have Jesus Christ contradict Jesus Christ Who says "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

No matter what point in time that you, BARNEY BRIGHT, claim Jesus Christ was created (began), then Jesus Christ exists sixty seconds before your point of beginning (creation) of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ exists always (John 8:58, Matthew 28:20).

The doctrines of demons includes that Jesus Christ was created thus being a creature not Creator.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you BARNEY BRIGHT have no gospel at all.

Since you watched your reply, I am including this link to post #1010 to which you replied.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The Christ says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

The Apostle Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work, created in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Your thoughts are patently antichrist.



You claim to present relatively recent "Hebrew Bible" translations (after 1850's) from Greek to Hebrew, so your supporting translation can be treated like any other translation from Greek to another language; therefore, your supporting translation can be subjected to literary scrutiny and criticism, just like the KJV or the NLT or the NWT or the NIV or the ESV or the NASB.

After Jesus says "before Abraham was", any translation that deviates from an equivalency for the first Greek word "ego" ("I") is unfaithful to the word of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 8:58.

After Jesus says "before Abraham was", any translation that deviates from an equivalency for the second and the verse's final Greek word "eimi" ("am") is unfaithful to the word of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 8:58.

Based on your preaching, BARNEY BRIGHT, your supporting translations are unfaithful to the word of Jesus Christ as recorded in John 8:58.

Your supporting translations are deception.

You make a lie your own because your deceptive supporting translations are the treasure of your heart. See who the father of lies is.

Jesus Christ says "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).

The original Greek is "ego eimi" ("I AM", John 8:58) of Jesus Christ's declaration as recorded by the Apostle John, and John is a faithful witness of Jesus Christ, so John's representation is accurate to Jesus Christ's words.



The natural man agrees with your supporting translations because as this post in this thread shows scripturally, the natural man precedes the spiritual man for every person.



There is a common theme among every translation that you present.

No matter what point in time that you, BARNEY BRIGHT, claim Jesus Christ was created (began), then Jesus Christ exists sixty seconds before your point of beginning (creation) of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ exists always (John 8:58, Matthew 28:20).

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you BARNEY BRIGHT have no gospel at all.



Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is without beginning of days or end of life (Hebrews 7:3); therefore, He exists continually prior to Abraham.

Your thoughts are out of accord with Jesus Christ, the Word of God (John 1:14).

A word about your thoughts. It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God's thoughts with man's thoughts, and that is evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

You make a choice as to what to believe concerning scripture just as I'm make a choice to believe concerning scripture, to me that's proof of free will, whether you believe that or not. People have always chose to obey God or not, to serve God or not, God doesn't make those choices for people. You and I won't agree that's certain. You ridicule people when they don't agree with you, because you can't defend your way in which you believe, at least you haven't to me. All you're about is ridicule.

 

[Kermos]

You make a choice as to what to believe concerning scripture just as I'm make a choice to believe concerning scripture, to me that's proof of free will, whether you believe that or not. People have always chose to obey God or not, to serve God or not, God doesn't make those choices for people. You and I won't agree that's certain. You ridicule people when they don't agree with you, because you can't defend your way in which you believe, at least you haven't to me. All you're about is ridicule.

Well, @BARNEY BRIGHT, here is a litany of you proving your innate "will" rejecting the Word of God, so you show yourself to be a natural man.

This post shows you (1) crazily wrote creation does not include Adam (2) wickedly added "believed" into the account of Adam and Eve (3) evilly added choice into the creation account and this post shows you (1) claim people can choose Jesus Christ thus you directly contradict Jesus Christ (2) present a corrupted post 1850 translation of Greek to Hebrew to English in your attempt to corrupt John 8:58 (3) present multiple translations of John 8:58 that results in Jesus Christ always existing prior to Abraham's birth even though you say Jesus Christ was created and this post shows you (1) contradict yourself about the Gospel of John containing Septuagint quotations (2) convey that Apostle John corrupted Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 but accurately represented Jesus Christ's words in Revelation 3:14 (3) claim Jesus Christ had beginning of days despite the fact that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, declares Himself existing everlastingly before Abraham in John 8:58 (4) convey that YHWH has a beginning of days based upon "the beginning of His ways" inProverbs 8:22 (5) fail to understand that "The Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14) is Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, declaring He is the Firstborn, Beginning, Head of the Assembly of God GOD (Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 5:23)

As a natural man, @BARNEY BRIGHT, you can do nothing but disbelieve apart from Jesus Christ intervening in you.

The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals

The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual" (1 Corinthians 15:46).

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The Apostle Paul declares that man's flesh opposes the Spirit of God with "the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another" (Galatians 5:17).

THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN'S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.

 

[Kermos]

@BARNEY BRIGHT, see that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is without beginning of days or end of life (Hebrews 7:3).

Jesus Christ says "before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

No matter what point in time that you, BARNEY BRIGHT, claim Jesus Christ was created (began), then Jesus Christ exists sixty seconds before your point of beginning (creation) of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ exists always (John 8:58, Matthew 28:20).

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you BARNEY BRIGHT have no gospel at all.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam "not willingly" subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul's birth by his writing "until now" (Romans 8:20-22).

"YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works" (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.