Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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grumix8

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If moses would of obeyed God and he did not hit the Rock ! and instead prayed our future would of been different . It shows humans are fallible and make mistakes but still our actions that make predestination into our future can change by error ! If you could change your past what could it be ? Barney tell me ? If something you cna change you disobey God what would it be ? Know the smallest things can have A huge impact in our lifes ?

all decisions matter barney and the future of Israel was changed did God let it happen ? Barney God can rewind and fix it and he did not ! He is God we are not but still he left it like it is because he let life continue and doesn't come out like we want it.
 

farouk

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It's really a before/after matter: before the Fall or after?

Ephesians 2 explains the situation after the Fall: 'dead in trespasses and sins...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...' It's only when the 'But God' comes in by His grace that the person is truly regenerated.
 
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grumix8

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We are saved by him and regenerated but we must be the ones who ask G-d for his forgivness and mercy he will give it we cannot be saved by our own efforts only G-d's.
 

BeyondET

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Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

  1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
    AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
    AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
    YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
    BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
    NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
    IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
    AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י™ (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
    THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
    THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
    SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
    AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
    SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
    AND the firm fact is established
    THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
  2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
    1. Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
    2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
    3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
    4. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

Context is important, free to eat and choose.

16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,


17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”…
 

Kermos

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Context is important, free to eat and choose.
16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden,
17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”…

Context most certainly is important!

But your heart adds the word "choose" into Genesis 2:16-17 where the word "choose" does not exist; therefore in your heart you change the context from the prescribed context that Genesis 2:16-17 is written.

The Meaning Of The Hebrew Words אכל(akal)/"eat" and מות(muth)/"die"in Genesis 2:16-17

In reality, the word "freely" does not appear in the Hebrew of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage. The Hebrew source word for "freely" is truly "to eat" in English for Genesis 2:16.

Also, the word "may" does not appear in the Hebrew of the passage. The Hebrew source word for "may" is truly "you will be eating" in English for Genesis 2:16.

The word "surely" can surely lead to misinterpretation of the passage since the Hebrew source word for "surely" is truly "to die" in English for Genesis 2:17.

First, we need to look at the passage, so here is Genesis 2:16 from three different angles: New American Standard Bible, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear.

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely eat;" (Genesis 2:16, NASB)
ויצו יהוה אלהים על האדם לאמר מכל עץ הגן אכל תאכל
(Genesis 2:16, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

and-commanded YHVH God unto the-man saying of-every tree of-the-garden to-eat you-eating (Genesis 2:16, Interlinear word(s) for word(s) translation of English from Hebrew)

Now, here is Genesis 2:17 from three different angles of NASB, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear."but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:17, NASB)
ומעץ הדעת טוב ורע לא תאכל ממנו כי ביום אכלך ממנו מות תמות
(Genesis 2:17, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

but-of-the-tree of-the-knowledge of-good and-evil not you-eating from when in-the-day you-to-eat of-it to-die you-dying (Genesis 2:17, Interlinear word(s) for word(s) translation of English from Hebrew)

Second, we need to look at the lexical construction.

The final two words of both verses follow similar patterns. The final two words are verbs. The final two words have the same root word. The first word is the Qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) infinitive absolute verb form (to be). The second word is the qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) imperfect second person masculine singular verb form (incomplete action thus present tense applies and past tense can be included and future tense can apply).

In Hebrew grammar, the qal is the simple paradigm and simplest stem formation of the verb.

The word roots are easily distinguishable when carefully examined.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:16, אכל תאכל, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 398 - eat.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:17, מות תמות, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 4191 - die.

The sixth word of Genesis 2:17 is תאכל which is precisely the same word that appears as the second of the two last words at the end of the Genesis 2:16, so we have a point of reference for this word.

Notice that the Hebrew word אכל (Strong's 398 - eat) in Genesis 2:16 is not the Hebrew word חפשי (Strong's 2670 - free).

Third, it is prudent to mention that the Masoretes added the vowel accents into the Hebrew written manuscripts. The Masoretes were a sect of Jews that lived after Jesus ascended to heaven. We have earlier copies of Hebrew manuscripts that contain consonants only, so the Hebrew consonant only script is what I use here in this essay. I use the consonant only script because it more closely represents the original Hebrew writing.

Continued to post #1046
 
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Kermos

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Continued from post #1045

Fourth, it's time to apply proper translation.

In Genesis 2:16, the final two words "אכל תאכל" (to-eat you-eating) are of significant relevance to this topic since both of these words are of the root "eat".

The first of the two words "אכל" (Strongs 398 - eat) is the infinitive verb form thus it translates to English as "to-eat"; however, some English translations use the word "freely", yet "freely" is an inappropriate translation of "eat" because the word is not the Hebrew word for "free" while it is the Hebrew word for "eat".

The second of the two words "תאכל" (Strongs 398 - eat) is the imperfect verb form thus it translates to English as "you-eating".

These two words essentially result in the first part of the command being "of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating" thus liberty of action without punishment is expressed. Also, instead of the permissive of "may" as part of the "eat" verb, it is appropriate for "will" to be part of the "eat" verb; in other words, "may eat" is the wrong translation., and "will eat" is the correct translation.

In Genesis 2:17, the final two words "מות תמות" (to-die you-dying) are of significant relevance to this topic since both of these words are of the root "die".

The first of the two words "מות" (Strongs 4191 - die) is the infinitive verb form thus it translates to English as "to-die"; however, some English translations use the word "surely", yet "surely" is an inappropriate translation of "die".

The second of the two words "תמות" (Strongs 4191 - die) is the imperfect verb form thus it translates to English as "you-dying".

These two words essentially cause the end of the command to say "day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying" thus the punishment is expressed.

Fifth, conclusions based on the above.

Since some people say proper translation of "to eat" and "to die" depend on the Hebrew language construct, so then there should be no problem switching "freely" to "surely" in Genesis 2:16; furthermore, there should be no problem switching "surely" to "freely" in Genesis 2:17; however, switching or keeping "freely" and/or "surely" causes confusion, yet God is not of confusion but of peace (1 Corinthians 14:33).

After all, "to-eat" followed by "you-will-be-eating" and "to-die" followed by "you-will-be-dying" have the same language construct of "qal infinitive absolute verb form" (to eat/to die) followed by "qal imperfect second person masculine singular verb form" (you-will-be-eating/you-will-be-dying).

The current English translation of "to eat" to "freely" is arbitrary in Genesis 2:16.

As it stands in the English translations, the translation of "to die" to "surely" is arbitrary in Genesis 2:17.

If one says that the vowel marks dictate the language construct, then such a one relies on the Masoretic Manuscript edits that the Masoretes added nearly 2,000 years after the original manuscripts, so that is arbitrary and capricous in Genesis 2:16-17.

The bottom line is that "to eat" must be translated "to eat", and "to die" must be translated "to die".

The word "freely" in the English translations of Genesis 2:16 should not be used because the underlying Hebrew word truly means "to eat".

The word "surely" in the English translations of Genesis 2:17 should not be used because the underlying Hebrew word truly means "to die".

The word "may" in the English translations of Genesis 2:16 improperly represents the underlying Hebrew; rather, the word "will" (verb future tense) is appropriate based on the underlying Hebrew word.

Genesis 2:16-17 contains a command, the word "command" in Genesis 2:16 is singular, not plural, but singular, so all of the Word of God recorded in Genesis 2:16-17 is a single command. The word "may" in Genesis 2:16 used in the English translations linguistically reduces the command to a request because the option of eating from none of the trees would be valid with the word "may"; however, with the word "will" (verb future tense) then the Integrity of a command linguistically remains intact.

For the sake of consistency, if we apply the word "may" into the last of the final two words of Genesis 2:17, just as the English translators did in Genesis 2:16, then it becomes err apparent that the word "may" fails in that position for both verses. The result for Genesis 2:17 would be essentially "day you are to eat of it to die you may be dying" thus a potential punishment is expressed, so this is ambiguous. God is precise, so ambiguous does not work.

This demonstrates that the verbs used by God to construct the final two words of Genesis 2:16 and Genesis 2:17 do not contain the word "may".

For Genesis 2:16-17 to be true to form, conjugates of "eat" must be used for each of the final two words in Genesis 2:16, and conjugates of "die" must be used for each of the final two words in Genesis 2:17.



Proper Translastion Based On The Hebrew
First, Genesis 2:16:

and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating"Second, please see this essay's "The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word כִּ֗י(ki)/'for'/'when' in Genesis 2:17 Comparison With Other Portions of Scripture" section explaining the usage of the grammatically accurate word "when".
Third, Genesis 2:17:

"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"
Fourth, properly bringing the two verses cohesively together to illuminate the entire command Genesis 2:16-17:

and commanded YHWH God to the man, saying "Of every tree in the garden to eat you will be eating, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not eating from, when in the day you are to eat of it to die you will be dying"


Behold, the context of Genesis 2:16-17 is not man's will, but the context is a precise command of God unto man.
 

BeyondET

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Context most certainly is important!

But your heart adds the word "choose" into Genesis 2:16-17 where the word "choose" does not exist; therefore in your heart you change the context from the prescribed context that Genesis 2:16-17 is written.

The Meaning Of The Hebrew Words אכל(akal)/"eat" and מות(muth)/"die"in Genesis 2:16-17

In reality, the word "freely" does not appear in the Hebrew of the Genesis 2:16-17 passage. The Hebrew source word for "freely" is truly "to eat" in English for Genesis 2:16.

Also, the word "may" does not appear in the Hebrew of the passage. The Hebrew source word for "may" is truly "you will be eating" in English for Genesis 2:16.

The word "surely" can surely lead to misinterpretation of the passage since the Hebrew source word for "surely" is truly "to die" in English for Genesis 2:17.

First, we need to look at the passage, so here is Genesis 2:16 from three different angles: New American Standard Bible, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear.

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may freely eat;" (Genesis 2:16, NASB)
ויצו יהוה אלהים על האדם לאמר מכל עץ הגן אכל תאכל
(Genesis 2:16, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

and-commanded YHVH God unto the-man saying of-every tree of-the-garden to-eat you-eating (Genesis 2:16, Interlinear word(s) for word(s) translation of English from Hebrew)

Now, here is Genesis 2:17 from three different angles of NASB, Hebrew Bible, and Interlinear."but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." (Genesis 2:17, NASB)
ומעץ הדעת טוב ורע לא תאכל ממנו כי ביום אכלך ממנו מות תמות
(Genesis 2:17, Hebrew Bible, historians say accent marks for vowels did not appear in early Hebrew script)

but-of-the-tree of-the-knowledge of-good and-evil not you-eating from when in-the-day you-to-eat of-it to-die you-dying (Genesis 2:17, Interlinear word(s) for word(s) translation of English from Hebrew)

Second, we need to look at the lexical construction.

The final two words of both verses follow similar patterns. The final two words are verbs. The final two words have the same root word. The first word is the Qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) infinitive absolute verb form (to be). The second word is the qal (Strong's 7031 - light, swift, fleet) imperfect second person masculine singular verb form (incomplete action thus present tense applies and past tense can be included and future tense can apply).

In Hebrew grammar, the qal is the simple paradigm and simplest stem formation of the verb.

The word roots are easily distinguishable when carefully examined.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:16, אכל תאכל, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 398 - eat.

Here are the final two Hebrew words of Genesis 2:17, מות תמות, notice the consistent word root. Both of these words are Strong's 4191 - die.

The sixth word of Genesis 2:17 is תאכל which is precisely the same word that appears as the second of the two last words at the end of the Genesis 2:16, so we have a point of reference for this word.

Notice that the Hebrew word אכל (Strong's 398 - eat) in Genesis 2:16 is not the Hebrew word חפשי (Strong's 2670 - free).

Third, it is prudent to mention that the Masoretes added the vowel accents into the Hebrew written manuscripts. The Masoretes were a sect of Jews that lived after Jesus ascended to heaven. We have earlier copies of Hebrew manuscripts that contain consonants only, so the Hebrew consonant only script is what I use here in this essay. I use the consonant only script because it more closely represents the original Hebrew writing.

Continued to post #1046

Do not eat from that tree or else, that is a choice they were given.

Saying they had no free will to choose, is like saying it was God's will for them to disobey.

There is no three angles to it, that is what your heart is saying there is no 3 angles in scripture
 

Kermos

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Yes Adam and Eve both were given free Will choice.

Name the verse that supports your heart's desire, MatthewG.

Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Presenting an event driven review of Paul's writing "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) and the creation account and more recorded in Genesis:

  • See "until now" (Romans 8:22) indicates all time prior to the Apostle Paul for he wrote "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22), as in "the whole creation" "until now".
  • See the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).
  • See "subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20) as the serpent's futility of lying to Eve with "You surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4) - before Adam or Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), yet Adam and Eve died (Genesis 5:5, Genesis 7:21 none of mankind, besides the 8 [Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20], survived the flood, so Eve had to be dead).
  • See "not willingly" (Romans 8:20) applies to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) for the Word of God specifically attributed the cause of Adam eating of the tree as "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so here God reveals for Adam the cause (listen to wife) and the effect (eat of tree); therefore, eating of the tree was "not willingly" (Romans 8:20).
Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).
 

MatthewG

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Name the verse that supports your heart's desire, MatthewG.

Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account

Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.

Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.

A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".

Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree [Genesis 3:6]), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.

Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which memes that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.

Presenting an event driven review of Paul's writing "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:20-22) and the creation account and more recorded in Genesis:

  • See "until now" (Romans 8:22) indicates all time prior to the Apostle Paul for he wrote "the whole creation" (Romans 8:22), as in "the whole creation" "until now".
  • See the serpent was in the garden tempting Eve (Genesis 3:1-5) before Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6).
  • See "subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20) as the serpent's futility of lying to Eve with "You surely will not die" (Genesis 3:4) - before Adam or Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), yet Adam and Eve died (Genesis 5:5, Genesis 7:21 none of mankind, besides the 8 [Genesis 7:7 and 1 Peter 3:20], survived the flood, so Eve had to be dead).
  • See "not willingly" (Romans 8:20) applies to Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6) for the Word of God specifically attributed the cause of Adam eating of the tree as "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17), so here God reveals for Adam the cause (listen to wife) and the effect (eat of tree); therefore, eating of the tree was "not willingly" (Romans 8:20).
Paul includes the "not willingly" (Romans 8:20-22) to apply to the time that Adam ate of the tree (Genesis 3:6).

This is your scripture appointed opinion.

It’s subjectively based on what you deem to fit the narrative you are protesting.

I disagree with it.

If Adam didn’t make a choice… of his own free will then… what made him do it? Did God force Adam to do so?

It’s understandable that people don’t believe in free will, but I do …
 

Kermos

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Just to make A recap everyone from the first to remembering the last posts that were done but we have to see what hebrew say when using those words of "free" and choice and know the whole area is also tied to the slaves system Judean mosaic law applies people. Did you know their is A law that saw if A slave from another country comes to Israel he is free under the law of moses and musn't be return to his country to be slave ? He can be free forever


Understand our freedom did exist ! And existed in Heaven when Lucifer rebbeled, truly freewill exist in the spectrum of decision but the concept of the past, present, and future makes us think freewill doesn't exist because everything God's see's and foresaws decided everything for us. Nope people just like their are sciences explaining our existence their is other realms of existence of aliens, spirits and time that our thinking does not know and exist God created it becuase he is above it all but paths that exist and ways that exist in those ways explain that freedom exist probablility exist and Lucifer is one that's he was perfect in every sense we do knot know and yet he reblled and proves freewill myth is not myth and Ray I copy something from him. Still were just the tip of the iceberg in freewill and consciousness and existing explaining that what we percieve in our brains and eyes is not how freewil is exist by God and he gives us choice to do good and evil people don't understand it.



Because they want to control the base of it and with words grab their destiny and say like scientist they cannot really choose because their future was chosen for them and everything is planned ? Not true Moses and Hulda and Elijah changed the future of the world with thier decision can we who are in this choosing of good and evil also change the destiny of this world and do good and not the same mistakes as them ? Yes, we can can Jesus do it ? He did change our destiny all together.




No, people you just begginign to enter the tip of freewill as we speak we have the verses and in greek mean different things and in hebrew mean different things. But how in the universe rules are different and no we are bound becuase their Is more to God he is not showing we know him as the God of before, today and tomorrow are thier more time measurments in the universe ? Yes, Do angels, aliens, and other beings that exist have different counting than we do ? yes, understand God is beyond destiny and he gives us that to be measure by time like we know it now but there is more ways to count time from angel perspective, alien perspective, and above all from God's perpsective for he is has not limits and he has counting system different from us.



Freewill is it based from God's letting people to choose to love him or not ? He let us choose our destiny can change from that ? Dont' go too far people he onlys wants us to choose either to be freed by him from sin thru Jesus and be baptized simple as that and not to choose to do evil simple people. Does freedom exist outside of our science and counting time and counting destiny and God can make it happen ? Yes he can he can do it all for he is God and only God judges God ! We cannot go beyond that but he can craete it people Don't rely on your own efforts in yoru decison but pray and rely on his and he will unchange your destiny to youd dream of saving your family to be rich man in god's way and be the thing you want he put in your heart to free in freewill in his love he gaves us life to choose and enjoy this magnifecent thing called life and live it with all your might and feelings.



Choose God above it all and put him first he will change your ways and find your dream come reality and really be all the things you can be !

You failed to cite the Word of God in your as quoted post. You preach random generalizations but no specifics, and you preach extrabiblical man-made stuff that is your thoughts.

Your as quoted posts are a whole lot of useless “word of @grumix8”, which is not life.

In truth, the Word of God is life (John 14:6).

Now, that is yet another post on page 52 with the “word of grumix8”, and not one scripture quotation to support freewill
(just like this post shows a similar posts on page 52
which has a predecessor this post shows two more similar posts on page 52 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar post on page 52 which has a predecessorthis post shows one more similar posts on page 50 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 46 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 45 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 43 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 35 which has a predecessor this post shows two more similar posts on page 33 which has a predecessor this post shows one more similar posts on page 32 which has a predecessor of this post shows four more similar posts on page 28 which has a predecessor of this post showing you did the same on page 23).

That’s a whole lot of your thoughts without the Word of God!

Your thoughts that you control you being saved from the wrath of God in your freewill keep heaping up into your precepts of men that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) as well as “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) – Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word” (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God’s! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God’s (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

A word about your thoughts. It is written, “‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,’ declares YHWH. ‘For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.’” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

A word about adding to scripture as you have done. It is written “do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar” (Proverbs 30:6), and the above explanation of your thoughts shows where you added to scripture.

Of the new Jerusalem, the Apostle John wrote “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” (Revelation 21:27) – notice that no one who practices lying gets in, and a human adding to scripture is the human lying.

Your free will assertion is referring to man attempting to override God’s thoughts with man’s thoughts, and that is foolishly evil.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17)

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will neither.
 

Kermos

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I don't agree that Moses or Elijah changed the destiny of this World we're living in. This World we're living in, is destined to be destroyed, that's still true. I agree that people such as Moses and Elijah are examples to follow, and this is especially true of Jesus Christ, he's the greatest human example to follow. This wicked world we're living in however is sill to be destroyed. Understand however I'm talking about this wicked world we're living in, not living on.

BARNEY BRIGHT, let's just resume were we left off in this thread.

Here is a post litany of you proving your innate “will” rejecting the Word of God, so you show yourself to be a natural man.

This post shows you (1) crazily wrote creation does not include Adam (2) wickedly added “believed” into the account of Adam and Eve (3) evilly added choice into the creation account and this post shows you (1) claim people can choose Jesus Christ thus you directly contradict Jesus Christ (2) present a corrupted post 1850 translation of Greek to Hebrew to English in your attempt to corrupt John 8:58 (3) present multiple translations of John 8:58 that results in Jesus Christ always existing prior to Abraham’s birth even though you say Jesus Christ was created and this post shows you (1) contradict yourself about the Gospel of John containing Septuagint quotations (2) convey that Apostle John corrupted Jesus Christ’s words in John 8:58 but accurately represented Jesus Christ’s words in Revelation 3:14 (3) claim Jesus Christ had beginning of days despite the fact that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, declares Himself existing everlastingly before Abraham in John 8:58 (4) convey that YHWH has a beginning of days based upon “the beginning of His ways” in Proverbs 8:22 (5) fail to understand that “The Beginning of the creation of God” (Revelation 3:14) is Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, declaring He is the Firstborn, Beginning, Head of the Assembly of God GOD (Colossians 1:15, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 5:23)

As a natural man, @BARNEY BRIGHT, you can do nothing but disbelieve apart from Jesus Christ intervening in you.

The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals

The Apostle Paul identifies every man starts out as a natural man with “the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual” (1 Corinthians 15:46).

The Apostle Paul explains that the commands of God are foolishness to man with a “natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

The Apostle Paul declares that man’s flesh opposes the Spirit of God with “the flesh desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. For these are opposed to one another” (Galatians 5:17).

THE FIRST STATE OF MAN IS OPPOSITION TO GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY (JOHN 14:6) FOR MAN’S SALVATION IS FOR GOD TO BIRTH MAN ANEW (JOHN 3:3-8), NOT A WORK OF A CHOICE BY MAN, BUT STRICTLY THE POWERFULLY GRACIOUS WORK OF GOD IN MAN (JOHN 6:29).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 

Kermos

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I don't agree that Moses or Elijah changed the destiny of this World we're living in. This World we're living in, is destined to be destroyed, that's still true. I agree that people such as Moses and Elijah are examples to follow, and this is especially true of Jesus Christ, he's the greatest human example to follow. This wicked world we're living in however is sill to be destroyed. Understand however I'm talking about this wicked world we're living in, not living on.

Let me remind you of a recent post in another thread to which you failed to respond.

Like I said kermos, you're taking Philippians 2:3-6 out of context to teach your belief. That's all I'm going to acknowledge about you kermos is you will take a scripture out of context to prove your belief. I'm not going to agree with that. You think whatever you want about me. You're just an imperfect person, so judging me as an antichrist, I don't worry about kermos you judge me as though they're infallible. I don't worry about you judging me, especially when you're taking scripture out of context to prove you're belief. I'm going to go by the context of Philippians 2:3-6, not your belief. That's not going to change kermos. You think of me what you choose to and judge me all you want, it matters not to me.

Did you write "The scriptures at Philippians 2:3-6 says that even though Jesus was in Gods form he never considered himself equal to God"?

Why, as a matter of fact, yes you did, as recorded in post #305 in the "Jesus is God" thread.

According to your own measure (Matthew 7:2), BARNEY BRIGHT, you used Philippians 2:3-6 out of context because you restricted the context to "Paul was telling the members in the Philippian congregation to be humble and think others in the Philippian congregation were superior to them" (your scribe in the "Jesus is God" thread).

Did you know that you are a scribe? You are a scribe because you scribe your posts.

You are a hypocrite (Matthew 23:13) about miscontextual use of Philippians 2:3-6, and Jesus pronounces "woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in" (Matthew 23:13).

I tell you that you changed Paul's words from being his words into your own antichrist words. Just look for the word "never" in the Philippians 2:3-6. You'll NEVER find the word "never" in an accurate translation.

You are intent on everlasting punishment for yourself (Matthew 25:46) because you deny Jesus (Matthew 10:33). For example, your heart wickedly subtracts that Paul refers to Lord Jesus as truly God in Philippians 2:6.
 

Kermos

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It's really a before/after matter: before the Fall or after?

Ephesians 2 explains the situation after the Fall: 'dead in trespasses and sins...fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...' It's only when the 'But God' comes in by His grace that the person is truly regenerated.

farouk, Ephesians 2 contains nothing that states mankind has a free will.

In fact, Paul wrote of man's complete dependence upon God for salvation from the wrath of God in Ephesians 2.

Specifically, Paul wrote "by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 

Kermos

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Do not eat from that tree or else, that is a choice they were given.

Saying they had no free will to choose, is like saying it was God's will for them to disobey.

There is no three angles to it, that is what your heart is saying there is no 3 angles in scripture

God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)

AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree

AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree

YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguished From Man's Ability)

BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory

NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"

IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)

AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)

THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17

THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17 (see also cross-referenceing the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] definition via scripture with scripture providing the proof that [1] the translation deficiency of the word "if" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] and [2] the translation efficiency of the word "when" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] respecting the early chapters of Genesis)

SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17

AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17

SO there is no free will indicated for Adam

AND the firm fact is established

THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
 

grumix8

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You Kermos who posted and I remember your posts said one thing and then said the opposite then you erased because fo your error if you had no error and chance to repent you do not have freewill to ask fo it from God. I remember Kermos you act so higlhy but you have contradicted yourself many times young man but you ahve freedom to choose your future awlays and can change it.
 

Kermos

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This is your scripture appointed opinion.

It’s subjectively based on what you deem to fit the narrative you are protesting.

I disagree with it.

If Adam didn’t make a choice… of his own free will then… what made him do it? Did God force Adam to do so?

It’s understandable that people don’t believe in free will, but I do …

Dear MatthewG,

I desire to make two points in this post.

Firstly, the Apostle Peter wrote "know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

This means that man is dependent upon God to understand the Word of God.

The Word of God is the Word of God.

The word of man occurs when a man or woman injects a word or words into the Word of God.

The word of man is not the Word of God.

The word of man is fraught with error and destruction.

God does not trust the word of man (Job 4:18).

This nullifies the word of man that says "I chose Jesus", especially when the word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Evil man tries to steal God's glory in the salvation of man, but such people fall under the wrath of God.

Secondly, I inquired of you for scripture that you would use to support your "It’s understandable that people don’t believe in free will, but I do".

MatthewG, name a verse that supports your heart's desire for human free will.
 

MatthewG

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Kermos,

Just read the book of Genesis of the Creation of Adam and Eve.

Of course the spirit is needed to better help a person understand the Bible.

You are right God is God, the Word of God is the spoken Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who is spirit.

Some of the scriptures you have citied by the Yeshua, makes me question who was Jesus speaking to right there in those passages.

Just more thing about Free-will is what Yeshua did say here, friend, when the discourse of mount olivet makes much more sense in my opinion.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Thank you also for your reply, sir.
 
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BeyondET

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God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)

AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree

AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree

YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguished From Man's Ability)

BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory

NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"

IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)

AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)

THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17

THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17 (see also cross-referenceing the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] definition via scripture with scripture providing the proof that [1] the translation deficiency of the word "if" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] and [2] the translation efficiency of the word "when" for the Hebrew word כִּ֗י [ki] respecting the early chapters of Genesis)

SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17

AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17

SO there is no free will indicated for Adam

AND the firm fact is established

THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
So Adam had no ability to say no and chose to blame not his will but another.
 

Kermos

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Kermos,

Just read the book of Genesis of the Creation of Adam and Eve.

Of course the spirit is needed to better help a person understand the Bible.

You are right God is God, the Word of God is the spoken Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who is spirit.

Some of the scriptures you have citied by the Yeshua, makes me question who was Jesus speaking to right there in those passages.

Just more thing about Free-will is what Yeshua did say here, friend, when the discourse of mount olivet makes much more sense in my opinion.

Matthew 23:37

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Thank you also for your reply, sir.

No scripture in Genesis chapters 1 to 6, the creation account, state that mankind was imparted free will by God.

Is Matthew 23:37 your proof text for free will?

MatthewG, notice the last five words of Jesus in Matthew 23:37, "and you were not willing".

These words of Jesus express that man in man's fleshy, unsaved state opposes God.

There is nothing in Matthew 23:37 that states man has a free will to choose God.

On the other hand, the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Since I am uncertain whether you intended for Matthew 23:37 as a proof text, I inquire again.

MatthewG, name a verse that supports your heart's desire for human free will.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.
 

Kermos

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So Adam had no ability to say no and chose to blame not his will but another.

Adam had no free will.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.