Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Kermos]

@Rightglory

1. your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) thoughts are proven deception according to the Word of God in these three installments which explain your deceptions of (1) 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God taught and you ignorantly think you choose to be born, (2) you contradict scripture by thinking God loves everyone thus God fails to save the ones God loves according to your free-willian philosophy, and (3) you express confusion as to why God created man.
2. you ignorantly implement an ignominious Ignatius quotation as support for free-willian philosophy, yet after the modern editorial content is removed - only leaving Ignatius' writing - the result is that Ignatius declared the depravity of man and the exclusive Sovereignty of God in man's salvation THUS EXPOSING YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST IGNATIUS THAT YOU THEN EXPAND INTO YOUR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD BEING IN CONTROL OF MAN'S SALVATION, so your 2,000 years of no sovereignty of God is demonstrably a lie. This post also shows where your heart's treasure adulterates the Word of God wherein God exclusively chooses every single child of God in all time causing salvation from the wrath of God (John 15:16, John 15:19, Mark 13:37)!
3. Your vehement argument against sola scriptura makes you promiscuus scriptura

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

Which shows that man's will is not bond in any shape or form, it is a classic view of the freedom of man's will. Man's will has always been independent of God's will. The Church dealt with the heresy of Christ's two natures (One Person) in three Councils.
1st Council of Constantinople 381; Council of Chalcedon 451: 3rd Council of Constantinople 680. The last dealing with Christ's two distinct wills -Divine will and human will.

But then......
Man Opening The Door To Salvation - The Free-willian Philosophy Explained
Free-willians think a person achieves salvation by doing the work of choosing Jesus, yet free-willians simultaneously think another person goes to hell in the absence of doing the work of choosing Jesus.
THEREFORE, a guy that chose Jesus saves the guy himself, yet a gal that did not choose Jesus condemns the gal herself.

SO, the guy saved himself because without his choosing of Jesus, then he'd be just like that gal.

POINTEDLY, the guy's salvation hinges solely on the guy's choosing Jesus because, in contrast to being saved, the guy would be hell-bound if that hinge of choosing Jesus did not swing open by the guy's power.

The "hinge" of the door mentioned above is based on free will philosophy.

Consider a third individual, who never heard the Gospel of Christ, such a person is not going to be with Christ in His Kingdom - even under free-willian philosophy.

In this sample population, the majority do not enter Heaven, yet the entire population of people are created by God.

Free-willians preach that their god atones for the sins of every man everywhere in all time after the cross; in other words, all people are redeemed by the god that free-willians preach, yet that gal goes to Hell who rejected Jesus; therefore, the god of free-willians failed to save the gal for whom the son of the god of the free-willians died to save.

The blood at the cross also established a spot in Heaven for the third individual who never heard the Gospel, but that spot will remain vacant for all eternity - the god of the free-willians was unable to keep the spot occupied.

The god of free-willian philosophy is weak, incapable, ineffectual, a liar, and not YHWH God.

The free-willian god is non-omniscient, non-omnipresent, and non-omnipotent.

That is no god at all which the free-willians create in their imagination, just a tradition of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), God saves every single individual for whom Jesus died on the cross to redeem from the wrath of God; in other words, God does not miss saving a single one of God's chosen persons for whom Jesus made atonement on the cross.

Lord Jesus says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

We Christians hear the Master say "it is finished" (John 19:30), and in that moment we receive the love of God (John 3:16) bestowing undeserved forgiveness upon us wretched God-hating monsters (Ephesians 2:1-4) - that the Son sacrificed Himself to reconcile the world to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) for the glory of God (John 17:4-5).

We believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent, and we believe Lord Jesus' sayings that belief is the blessed work of God in us (John 6:28) - it is more than an awakening - it is an enlivening - it is being born again (John 3:3-8) - it is getting the new heart that God wondrously implants in us (Ezekiel 36:26).

We Christians know that God's merciful salvation hinges on Christ alone for the glory of God alone, and there is nothing we can do nor say - not even a human choice approving of Jesus in order to obtain saving grace - nothing we say or do earns the unearnable love of God. We believe that Being saved from the wrath of God is exclusively God choosing us, not us choosing God (John 15:16, John 15:19).

For Christians, it is "believing"; in contrast, for the guy saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it is "choosing".

For us Christians, it all hinges on Christ alone, yet for the free-willians saying "I chose to believe in Jesus", it all hinges on the a free-willian's choice.

The free will philosophy is proven to be deception because "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18), so God does not trust a person who chooses Jesus; therefore, a free-willian who says "I chose Jesus" is bound for hell.

Behold, the psalmist says he is entirely dependent upon the Almighty!

I will extol You, O YHWH, for You have lifted me up,
And have not let my enemies rejoice over me.
O YHWH my God,
I cried to You for help, and You healed me.
O YHWH, You have brought up my soul from Sheol;
You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.
(Psalm 30:1-3)

See "The Natural Is The First State Of Being For All Mere Mortals" sidebar for more insight.

Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

The congruency between the preview of Adam and Eve in the Genesis creation account is like a glass darkly in the full view of Jesus and His Wife in the fullness of time. By the grace of God, this essay exposits the foreshadow and substance.

jesusdelivers.faith

Is it based upon our believing, or YHVH's choice?

 

[Johann]

Once again you have not addressed your assertion. You say you will stick with Christ, but your theory only shows you either stick with some other men or just yourself. I don't believe the Holy Spirit is fickle, confused, and gives multiple gospels. He gave it once to the Apostles and the Holy Spirit has preserved that Gospel unchanged for 2000 years. Which is why it is so easy to show a false teaching, it has not been believed from the beginning by all everywhere.

The Bondage Of A Man's Will
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

"the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
"but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).
By God's grace, for God's glory!

Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

The congruency between the preview of Adam and Eve in the Genesis creation account is like a glass darkly in the full view of Jesus and His Wife in the fullness of time. By the grace of God, this essay exposits the foreshadow and substance.

jesusdelivers.faith

It makes sense

 

[Rightglory]

The Bondage Of A Man's Will
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

"the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
"but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).
By God's grace, for God's glory!

Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

The congruency between the preview of Adam and Eve in the Genesis creation account is like a glass darkly in the full view of Jesus and His Wife in the fullness of time. By the grace of God, this essay exposits the foreshadow and substance.

jesusdelivers.faith

It makes sense

Lots of strawmen in your explanation. Lots of texts out of context, and misinterpreted. But what could one expect from a man made theory. What sect/denomination supports this theory?
It might make sense for the person who wrote this stuff but it is far from what scripture means and has been understood from the beginning. Give me a source of this view in the centuries before the Reformation.

 

[Johann]

Lots of strawmen in your explanation. Lots of texts out of context, and misinterpreted. But what could one expect from a man made theory. What sect/denomination supports this theory?
It might make sense for the person who wrote this stuff but it is far from what scripture means and has been understood from the beginning. Give me a source of this view in the centuries before the Reformation.

As far as I can tell no texts out of context, another thing I can say, is that you don't read @Kermos essays, as most assume he is a Calvinist.
The burden of proof is on you to prove @Kermos wrong, so far, without a successful rebuttal.

If my "will" is independent of God's will, then I am not saved

CHRIST IS THE RIGHTEOUS ONE:
"The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear an utterance from His mouth" (Acts 22:14, Paul reported that Ananias said this to him).
"They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One" (Acts 7:52, Stephen spoke before being martyred).

CHRIST IS RIGHTEOUSNESS:
"this is His name by which He will be called, 'YHWH our righteousness.'" (Jeremiah 23:6).
"They will say of Me, 'Only in YHWH are righteousness and strength.'" (Isaiah 45:24).
GOD IS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

"by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30).

"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

CHRIST IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up" (John 3:14).

"I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32).

THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WAS PUBLICLY LIFTED UP:
"Christ Jesus whom God displayed publicly" (Romans 3:24-25).
"to demonstrate His righteousness" (Romans 3:25).
a born of the Spirit of God person is bound as a slave to Righteousness, and Christ makes the slave of Righteousness to be free from the punishment for sin against God, a friend of God:

"you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

"YHWH was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of YHWH will prosper in His hand" (Isaiah 53:10).

"without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Hebrews 9:22).
"He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of His own Blood, thus securing an eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12).

"as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Hebrews 9:26).
"To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His Blood" (Revelation 1:5).
"if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed" (John 8:36).
"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed" (1 Peter 2:24).
"Christ loved us and gave Himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God" (Ephesians 5:2).

"Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).
"This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My Blood" (Luke 22:20).
"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28).

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you" (John 15:13-14).

"When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit" (John 19:30).
"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep" (John 10:11).

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me" (John 10:14).
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-28).

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8).

It seems ridiculous to write this obvious fact, but "desire" differs from "free will" in definition, so they are not the same thing
Profound difference exist between "will" with it's variants and "desire" and "joy"

Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

The congruency between the preview of Adam and Eve in the Genesis creation account is like a glass darkly in the full view of Jesus and His Wife in the fullness of time. By the grace of God, this essay exposits the foreshadow and substance.

jesusdelivers.faith

 

[Rightglory]

As far as I can tell no texts out of context, another thing I can say, is that you don't read @Kermos essays, as most assume he is a Calvinist.

He hasn't said otherwise. It does not make much difference since he cannot show any evidence that Christians ever believed what he believes before the Reformation.

The burden of proof is on you to prove @Kermos wrong, so far, without a successful rebuttal.

I gave him historical rebuttal of what scripture has meant for 2000 years. I even narrowed it down to prior to the reformation. All that matters to me is that it is a belief that has not been believed from the beginning. Thus it becomes a theory of interpretation of scripture that hundreds of men have developed since the Reformation. Every denomination has a founder and they are all individual men who all make the same claim, that what they developed was of the Holy Spirit. We might as well all develop our own theory of salvation.

 

[Johann]

He hasn't said otherwise. It does not make much difference since he cannot show any evidence that Christians ever believed what he believes before the Reformation.

I gave him historical rebuttal of what scripture has meant for 2000 years. I even narrowed it down to prior to the reformation. All that matters to me is that it is a belief that has not been believed from the beginning. Thus it becomes a theory of interpretation of scripture that hundreds of men have developed since the Reformation. Every denomination has a founder and they are all individual men who all make the same claim, that what they developed was of the Holy Spirit. We might as well all develop our own theory of salvation.

I have carefully witnessed @Kermos and you, followed all your answers given to him, you come from a historical perspective, and he from a biblical perspective. proving that the ego eimi is dethroned and that the Holy Spirit is now occupying the "self will" in the believer.

Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

The congruency between the preview of Adam and Eve in the Genesis creation account is like a glass darkly in the full view of Jesus and His Wife in the fullness of time. By the grace of God, this essay exposits the foreshadow and substance.

jesusdelivers.faith

The Bondage Of A Man's Will
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

"the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
"but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

This is biblically sound and correct, unless, of course, you can show him, from scriptures that the "will" is working independently, apart from God?

J.

 

[Rightglory]

I have carefully witnessed @Kermos and you, followed all your answers given to him, you come from a historical perspective, and he from a biblical perspective. proving that the ego eimi is dethroned and that the Holy Spirit is now occupying the "self will" in the believer.

Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor

The congruency between the preview of Adam and Eve in the Genesis creation account is like a glass darkly in the full view of Jesus and His Wife in the fullness of time. By the grace of God, this essay exposits the foreshadow and substance.

jesusdelivers.faith

The Bondage Of A Man's Will
Free-willians, in a respect, are correct that "there's no difference between self will and free will", and that respect is that both self will and free will lead to hell.
Now, instead of listening to themselves lie with things like "Free will is all through the scriptures", they need to listen to Apostolic testimony as shown below.

Peter the Apostle wrote that prior to being saved, people have a self will that brings such people under damnation with the devil according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Paul the Apostle wrote that after being saved, people have a will that is bound under the loving control of God according to the Apostle Paul (Philippians 2:13).

Here's Paul from the Bible, again. Overall, Paul uses free will as illusory instead of concrete in Philemon 1:14 - and this is the only occurrence of "free will" that I am aware of in the New American Standard Bible New Testament.

Free-willians do not have a free will, as described by Paul.

Free-willians do have a self will, as described by Peter.

Free-willians gleefully separate themselves from God's will and the Christ of us Christians Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19). We Christians in God's Spirit have a will bound enthusiastically in joy and love to God by God for God through God, as described by Paul.

The above mentioned Apostolic testimony verbatim:

"the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, 10and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).
"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
"but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14).

This is biblically sound and correct, unless, of course, you can show him, from scriptures that the "will" is working independently, apart from God?

J.

You come from a sola scriptura which was developed within the Reformation. I come from a solid scriptural background, teaching and understanding that has not changed for 2000 years. That is the work of the Holy Spirit within His Body, the Church. I don't put any stock in interpretations and theories of men. Historically, every single man that developed a theory, the theory was declared heretical and many times the person as well. All heretical theories or false teachings are based on scripture.
The best you can do is claim it as your personal understanding. You cannot prove your view is scriptural as it will be disagreed by another sola scripturist who makes the same claim-It is from scripture and the Holy Spirit gave it to me.
Just to show your texts out of context is John 15:16, It has never meant to pertain to believers. Also, Phil 3:13 is misinterpreted..
The fact that you do not recognize from scripture as a whole that man's will is separate from God's will. God will not bind man's will in any shape or form, otherwise we become toys to be manipulated. God does not force love. What do you call forced love? God is love and gives freedom to mankind to freely choose to reject Him or to love and serve Him. It is really a simple concept.

 

[Johann]

You come from a sola scriptura which was developed within the Reformation. I come from a solid scriptural background, teaching and understanding that has not changed for 2000 years. That is the work of the Holy Spirit within His Body, the Church. I don't put any stock in interpretations and theories of men. Historically, every single man that developed a theory, the theory was declared heretical and many times the person as well. All heretical theories or false teachings are based on scripture.
The best you can do is claim it as your personal understanding. You cannot prove your view is scriptural as it will be disagreed by another sola scripturist who makes the same claim-It is from scripture and the Holy Spirit gave it to me.
Just to show your texts out of context is John 15:16, It has never meant to pertain to believers. Also, Phil 3:13 is misinterpreted..
The fact that you do not recognize from scripture as a whole that man's will is separate from God's will. God will not bind man's will in any shape or form, otherwise we become toys to be manipulated. God does not force love. What do you call forced love? God is love and gives freedom to mankind to freely choose to reject Him or to love and serve Him. It is really a simple concept.

Joh 15:16 'Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.

But I chose you (all' egō exelexamēn humas). First aorist middle indicative of eklegō. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luk_6:13). So Paul was “a vessel of choice” (skeuos eklogēs, Act_9:15). Appointed (ethēka). First aorist active indicative (k aorist) of tithēmi. Note three present active subjunctives with hina (purpose clause) to emphasize continuance (hupagēte, keep on going, pherēte, keep on bearing fruit, menēi, keep on abiding), not a mere spurt, but permanent growth and fruit-bearing.
He may give (dōi). Second aorist active subjunctive of didōmi with hina (purpose clause). Cf. Joh_14:13 for the same purpose and promise, but with poiēsō (I shall do). See also Joh_16:23, Joh_16:26.
Robertson


Ye have not, &c. = Not that ye chose Me, &c. Figure of speech Antimetabole. App-6. Thus reversing the custom of the Jews for the disciple to choose his own master. See Dr. John Lightfoot, Works, vol. iii. p. 175.

have chosen = chose.

ordained = placed. Greek. tithemi, as in Joh_15:13. Compare 1Ti_1:12; 1Ti_2:7.

2Ti_1:11. Heb_1:2.

JOHN—NOTE ON 15:16 You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them. Jesus is emphasizing that
the ultimate factor in determining who would follow him was Jesus’ own
choice. The Greek eklegomai has the sense of “to choose or pick out from a
group,” and it clearly has that sense also in v. 19.

That you should go and
bear fruit implies that the purpose of Christ’s choosing people is not merely
that their sins be forgiven and they have eternal life but also that their lives be
fruitful and productive in fulfilling God’s purposes. For key passages on the
doctrine of election, see Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.


Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

1. Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
2. Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


*I think we are on the same page brother*


You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.

J.

 

[Rightglory]

Joh 15:16 'Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.

But I chose you (all' egō exelexamēn humas). First aorist middle indicative of eklegō. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luk_6:13). So Paul was “a vessel of choice” (skeuos eklogēs, Act_9:15). Appointed (ethēka). First aorist active indicative (k aorist) of tithēmi. Note three present active subjunctives with hina (purpose clause) to emphasize continuance (hupagēte, keep on going, pherēte, keep on bearing fruit, menēi, keep on abiding), not a mere spurt, but permanent growth and fruit-bearing.
He may give (dōi). Second aorist active subjunctive of didōmi with hina (purpose clause). Cf. Joh_14:13 for the same purpose and promise, but with poiēsō (I shall do). See also Joh_16:23, Joh_16:26.
Robertson


Ye have not, &c. = Not that ye chose Me, &c. Figure of speech Antimetabole. App-6. Thus reversing the custom of the Jews for the disciple to choose his own master. See Dr. John Lightfoot, Works, vol. iii. p. 175.

have chosen = chose.

ordained = placed. Greek. tithemi, as in Joh_15:13. Compare 1Ti_1:12; 1Ti_2:7.

2Ti_1:11. Heb_1:2.

JOHN—NOTE ON 15:16 You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them. Jesus is emphasizing that
the ultimate factor in determining who would follow him was Jesus’ own
choice. The Greek eklegomai has the sense of “to choose or pick out from a
group,” and it clearly has that sense also in v. 19.

That you should go and
bear fruit implies that the purpose of Christ’s choosing people is not merely
that their sins be forgiven and they have eternal life but also that their lives be
fruitful and productive in fulfilling God’s purposes. For key passages on the
doctrine of election, see Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.


Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

1. Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
2. Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


*I think we are on the same page brother*


You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.

J.

It is kinda funny that you attempt to use the Greek as if that helps your cause. You do know that the Church had only one language, Greek, for the first 900 years of existence. I think they knew their Greek. Yet they don't have the same understanding as you do.

 

[Johann]

It is kinda funny that you attempt to use the Greek as if that helps your cause. You do know that the Church had only one language, Greek, for the first 900 years of existence. I think they knew their Greek. Yet they don't have the same understanding as you do.

It's kinda funny how you missed everything, the mostly English parts, most don't know this, but I have studied, and still am, the Koine Greek and Hebrew, and I don't have to go online once.
You missed the fact that I am in agreement with you, but you can't "see" it.

 

[Kermos]

You come from a sola scriptura which was developed within the Reformation. I come from a solid scriptural background, teaching and understanding that has not changed for 2000 years. That is the work of the Holy Spirit within His Body, the Church. I don't put any stock in interpretations and theories of men. Historically, every single man that developed a theory, the theory was declared heretical and many times the person as well. All heretical theories or false teachings are based on scripture.
The best you can do is claim it as your personal understanding. You cannot prove your view is scriptural as it will be disagreed by another sola scripturist who makes the same claim-It is from scripture and the Holy Spirit gave it to me.
Just to show your texts out of context is John 15:16, It has never meant to pertain to believers. Also, Phil 3:13 is misinterpreted..
The fact that you do not recognize from scripture as a whole that man's will is separate from God's will. God will not bind man's will in any shape or form, otherwise we become toys to be manipulated. God does not force love. What do you call forced love? God is love and gives freedom to mankind to freely choose to reject Him or to love and serve Him. It is really a simple concept.

Your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) cannot competently contend in Truth (John 14:6) with the analysis of your quote of Ignatius - the analysis which has been shown to you previously about your purported 2,000 year absence of God's sovereignty - so the analysis is below, again.

Here are some early Church Fathers who disagree with you. Speaking of Ignatius, he might have been taught by Peter and Paul. He became Bishop of Antioch in 60 AD.

Ignatius (AD30-107)
"Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men - the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us."
(Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)
...snip

What you are doing is like using the fabric to measure the yardstick. In case you are unfamiliar with this terminology, the yardstick represents the standard of measure, and the fabric represents the commodity to be divided into fair increments of pieces (Proverbs 11:1) - properly the yardstick is used to measure a distance of the fabric.

Your opening ignominious Ignatius quotation requires scrutiny, but more on this further in this post.

The Apostle John warns:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
(1 John 4:1-3)
​

See "antichrist" "already in the world" at the time of John, so everything must be seen by believers through God given eyes (John 3:3-8, John 3:21). Antichrist persons nullify the Word of God in their hearts.

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Word of God, and the Christ's words reverberate these 2,000 years for Lord Jesus says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ's words define Christianity, even every moment of the 2,000 years you mentioned.

Man's words/commentaries are not the Bible.

Let's compare your unbiblical words of

So, all believers are but by choice. This context is NOT about future believers, but speaking directly to twelve men ONLY.

to the Word of God, bullet point with red text above by bullet point with blue text below:

• "you twelve men ONLY did not choose Me, but I chose you twelve men ONLY" (the word of Rightglory).
• "I chose you twelve men ONLY out of the world" (the word of Rightglory).
• "What I say to you I say to all" (the word of Rightglory).

The treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18) is consistent with your deficient interpretation of ancient commentary instead of the Word of God, so you agree with your foundation of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). As for my house, our foundation is the Word of God (John 1:1-5) in us by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

Plenty of ancient commentary exists that declares God is sovereign in the salvation of man, even among your deficiently quoted text above, but you are blind to the Word of God and you adulterate the Word of God, so it is no surprise that you adulterate ancient commentary (see en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Epistle_to_the_Magnesians for a side by side comparison of the translation from the text tbat we have of Ignatius' letter according to historians (the shorter recension) versus the modern edited by another person(s)/editor(s) (the longer recension) and search for "Seeing, then, all" to properly compare ancient text - ESSENTIALLY, YOU TOOK A MODERN COPY THAT AGREES WITH YOUR OWN THOUGHTS INSTEAD OF THAT WHICH IGNATIUS WROTE - see that Ignatius did not use the word "choice" nor hint at "choice" in the shorter recension - in effect, you lied by causing Ignatius to lie - you even used a fabricated letter from Ignatius to try to prove your point - the devil is the father of lies (John 8:44) - your false witness letter is wrong glory @Rightglory, very wrong glory as you use your false witness against Ignatius as support for your false witness against the Word of God).

Even a little leaven (deviation from the Word of God) leavens the whole loaf (the person adhering to the deviation from the Word of God) (Galatians 5:7-9), and your blue text deviates from Jesus Christ's red text!

Anyone who says that he chose Jesus has opposed Jesus by uttering such a rejectful saying, as evidenced in Jesus' words. Such a person is a thief that steals God's glory in the salvation of man. Such a person thinks he saved himself from the wrath of God because his failure to choose Jesus would have left him unsaved.

All believers in all time are utterly dependent upon the Word of God for being saved from the wrath of God by God's grace for God's glory!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

Joh 15:16 'Ye did not choose out me, but I chose out you, and did appoint you, that ye might go away, and might bear fruit, and your fruit might remain, that whatever ye may ask of the Father in my name, He may give you.

But I chose you (all' egō exelexamēn humas). First aorist middle indicative of eklegō. See this same verb and tense used for the choice of the disciples by Christ (Joh_6:70; Joh_13:18; Joh_15:19). Jesus recognizes his own responsibility in the choice after a night of prayer (Luk_6:13). So Paul was “a vessel of choice” (skeuos eklogēs, Act_9:15). Appointed (ethēka). First aorist active indicative (k aorist) of tithēmi. Note three present active subjunctives with hina (purpose clause) to emphasize continuance (hupagēte, keep on going, pherēte, keep on bearing fruit, menēi, keep on abiding), not a mere spurt, but permanent growth and fruit-bearing.
He may give (dōi). Second aorist active subjunctive of didōmi with hina (purpose clause). Cf. Joh_14:13 for the same purpose and promise, but with poiēsō (I shall do). See also Joh_16:23, Joh_16:26.
Robertson


Ye have not, &c. = Not that ye chose Me, &c. Figure of speech Antimetabole. App-6. Thus reversing the custom of the Jews for the disciple to choose his own master. See Dr. John Lightfoot, Works, vol. iii. p. 175.

have chosen = chose.

ordained = placed. Greek. tithemi, as in Joh_15:13. Compare 1Ti_1:12; 1Ti_2:7.

2Ti_1:11. Heb_1:2.

JOHN—NOTE ON 15:16 You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them. Jesus is emphasizing that
the ultimate factor in determining who would follow him was Jesus’ own
choice. The Greek eklegomai has the sense of “to choose or pick out from a
group,” and it clearly has that sense also in v. 19.

That you should go and
bear fruit implies that the purpose of Christ’s choosing people is not merely
that their sins be forgiven and they have eternal life but also that their lives be
fruitful and productive in fulfilling God’s purposes. For key passages on the
doctrine of election, see Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.


Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

1. Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
2. Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.


*I think we are on the same page brother*


You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’
willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.

J.

Johann, your closing paragraph contradicts itself. You wrote:

You did not choose me does not negate the disciples’ willing decision to follow Jesus when he called them.
​

Essentially, you wrote that Jesus says "you did not choose Me except when you chose to follow me, but I chose you" instead of the Lord's actual words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).

Friend, every occurrence of Christian obedience to any and every command of God is a fruit of the Spirit, that is, an act of God in the Christian for the Word of God says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing " (John 15:5) and Christ reveals even deeper that a person initially coming to Christ as wrought in God with "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God " (John 3:21); therefore, even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God - Christians act righteously by following Jesus joyfully by the Power of God!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

even the fruit of following Jesus is caused by God -

Hence my question, what happens to the believer who occasionally sin?

What is it that causes him/her to sin, notice, I am not saying living in a state of sin, but many believers are committing acts of sin, not joyfully, or willingly.

 

[Johann]

Hence my question, what happens to the believer who occasionally sin?

What is it that causes him/her to sin, notice, I am not saying living in a state of sin, but many believers are committing acts of sin, not joyfully, or willingly.

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/simply-put/quietism-and-activism

Quietism has its roots in a 17th Century Roman Catholic movement. It’s most associated with a Spanish priest called Miguel de Molinos, a French mystic called Madame Guyon, and a French Archbishop and writer called Francois Fenelon.

They were associated with the idea that the sanctification of the Christian is exclusively the work of the Holy Spirit. In other words, as far as your personal godliness is concerned, there is nothing for you to do except get out of the way, and let God do all the work. Let go of your own will, and any illusion that you can affect your own sanctification in any way, and just allow God to do it. “Let go and let God” is the way some have characterized it.

Think of it as a spiritual car wash. Your job is to sit there while you pass through the various brushes and hoses and dryers, and do nothing. In fact, you’re actively discouraged from doing anything. Leave the car in neutral with the handbrake off, take your feet off the pedals, get your hands off the steering wheel, and don’t even think about touching the moonroof.

That, according to Quietism, is the Christian life. You must calmly resign yourself to the conveyor belt of sanctification, and don’t go getting any funny ideas about, you know, actually striving to live a holy life.

As is often the case with theological mistakes, you can also fall off the horse on the other side. There is an equal and opposite error to quietism, and it’s called activism. That’s the view that not only should you not be passive in the Christian life, actually your growth as a believer is ALL about you. You can’t be relying on the Holy Spirit to do anything for you. You’d better be working incredibly hard, ALL the time, otherwise you’ll never be sanctified.

Most of us tend to fall off the horse one way or the other. Are you more likely to be a quietist or an activist?

Well, Scripture rules out both. To take one particular verse, think about what the Apostle Paul says in Philippians chapter 2 verse 12: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. Ah, says the activist, there you are you see. I have to work out my own salvation. It’s all about me.

1. Not so fast, says Paul: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

There you are you see, says the quietist, God does the working. To which Paul says, “Were you not listening to the first part of the sentence?” That’s not in Philippians by the way, but I hope you can see my point.

Scripture gives us a much more “wholistic” view of how we’re to understand the Christian life. We are to work, and work hard, for holiness, but as we do that, we do it in the knowledge that it is God who is working in us to make us more like Christ. And actually, according to Paul, the very reason that we keep striving for holiness is precisely because we know that God is working in us when we do so. If you knew that God would be at work in you when you are at work, wouldn’t that motivate you to work all the more?

Are you a quietist brother?

 

[Gilligan]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
   AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
   AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
   YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
   BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory

This is an interesting take on the commandment of God being prophecy, that will certainly happen, rather than being evidence of man's ability to obey or disobey the commandment.

The argument though collapses at the outset. The commandment is not just in the day you eat thereof, but is first to eat freely, and then to not eat of the other.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:16-17)

If the commandment is prophecy that shall come to pass, then the man would have eaten freely of those, and never eaten of that one.

So, any sure word of prophecy in the commandment could only be the certain death to come.

And since man had no say in the matter, then he would have obeyed the prophecy without will, and went straight to the wrong tree to eat of it and die. He would have only been doing without any will of his own, exactly what God prophesied and told Him to do.

God would have said thous shalt not, and then said thou shalt and die.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. (1 Cor 14:33)

"God did not say in God's command to Adam "you have the ability to obey" nor did God say "you have the ability to choose to obey". Adam did not have the ability to freewill choose toward God."

This is circular and proves nothing. The same argument can be made for the opposite:

God did not say "you do not have the ability to obey" nor did God say "you do not have the ability to choose to obey." And so Adam did have the ability to freewill choose toward God.

The fact is that man is made in God's image, and is not a beast of the field that obeys God's commandment without thought or reason or will of their own.

Conclusion: If man was created without free will to choose to do good or evil, then God has no such free will Himself, since all men are created in His image. That is not the case for the beasts of the field.

 

[Johann]

This is an interesting take on the commandment of God being prophecy, that will certainly happen, rather than being evidence of man's ability to obey or disobey the commandment, which is what separates us from the beasts of the field. We, like they, are commanded to be fruitful and multiply, but they are not given specific commandments of behavior to do or not to do.

The problem in the argument here, is that only the last part of the commandment is being made prophetic of what shall surely come to pass.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Gen 2:16-17)

The first command is to eat freely of the trees. The second command is to not eat of that tree. And the last part isn't even a command to the man, but to God Himself, who makes Himself bound by His own commandment to not let the man live with Him, if the man disobeys Him. Adam would surely die in that day, because God would keep His own word and bring it to pass. It's not a commandment to Adam, but a warning from God of what God would do, if Adam disobeyed Him.

If commandment of God were prophecy of what shall surely come to pass, where man has no free will to choose one way are the other, then the man would eat freely of the trees as commanded, and not eat of that tree as commanded, and the promise of God, that He would die, is mute and unnecessary.

The commandment also has free will commanded in it, which is to freely eat of the trees. Where no free will is, there is no freedom to do anything, but only a certain fulfilling of what is commanded, whether to do or not to do.

The fact is that Adam did obey God for a season, both to freely eat of the trees and not eat of that one. He obeyed long enough to name all the animals and make Eve is wife. The fact that he did obey only for a season, proves free will to do so; otherwise, without any free will about it, he would have simply continued obeying.

"God did not say in God's command to Adam "you have the ability to obey" nor did God say "you have the ability to choose to obey". Adam did not have the ability to freewill choose toward God."

This is circular and proves nothing. The same argument can be made for the opposite:

God did not say "you do not have the ability to obey" nor did God say "you do not have the ability to choose to obey." And so Adam did have the ability to freewill choose toward God.

The fact is that man is made in God's image, and is not a beast of the field that obeys God's commandment without thought or reason or will of their own.

Conclusion: If man was created without free will to choose to do good or evil, then God has no such free will Himself, since all men are created in His image, that the beasts of the field do not have.

Just found this......
How do we grow as Christians? Do we passively “let go and let God,” or is it all about us and our hard work toward holiness? Today, Barry Cooper shows how the truth revealed in Scripture avoids both of these pitfalls.

Transcript
In the beginning, before there was Broadband, there was Dial-Up. And it was very bad.

If, back in 1999, you wanted to watch the trailer for Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace, and many people did, you couldn’t just hit play on your computer, watch it, and then get on with your life like it was no biggie. Your state of the art 56k dial-up modem, with its top speeds of, well much less than 56k, meant that you had to wait. And wait. And there was nothing you could do to help it along. I literally went to bed for eight hours in the hope that it might be waiting for me in the morning.

This very passive and unsatisfactory state of affairs is my way of raising the topic of Quietism, which as a way of thinking, is more popular today than you might expect. Quietism says there’s nothing you can do to move your sanctification along. God does the work in you, and so you should just calmly wait and be passive in the process.

In recent years, there’ve been some high profile examples of this. Reacting against what they see as legalism or moralism - the call to “do more, try harder” in the Christian life - some teachers have swung so far the other way that they’ve effectively taught people there’s no need for a Christian to do anything at all. In a nutshell, stop thinking about what you ought to do, and reflect only on what Jesus has already done on your behalf.

Quietism has its roots in a 17th Century Roman Catholic movement. It’s most associated with a Spanish priest called Miguel de Molinos, a French mystic called Madame Guyon, and a French Archbishop and writer called Francois Fenelon.

They were associated with the idea that the sanctification of the Christian is exclusively the work of the Holy Spirit. In other words, as far as your personal godliness is concerned, there is nothing for you to do except get out of the way, and let God do all the work. Let go of your own will, and any illusion that you can affect your own sanctification in any way, and just allow God to do it. “Let go and let God” is the way some have characterized it.

Think of it as a spiritual car wash. Your job is to sit there while you pass through the various brushes and hoses and dryers, and do nothing. In fact, you’re actively discouraged from doing anything. Leave the car in neutral with the handbrake off, take your feet off the pedals, get your hands off the steering wheel, and don’t even think about touching the moonroof.

That, according to Quietism, is the Christian life. You must calmly resign yourself to the conveyor belt of sanctification, and don’t go getting any funny ideas about, you know, actually striving to live a holy life.

As is often the case with theological mistakes, you can also fall off the horse on the other side. There is an equal and opposite error to quietism, and it’s called activism. That’s the view that not only should you not be passive in the Christian life, actually your growth as a believer is ALL about you. You can’t be relying on the Holy Spirit to do anything for you. You’d better be working incredibly hard, ALL the time, otherwise you’ll never be sanctified.

Most of us tend to fall off the horse one way or the other. Are you more likely to be a quietist or an activist?

Well, Scripture rules out both. To take one particular verse, think about what the Apostle Paul says in Philippians chapter 2 verse 12: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. Ah, says the activist, there you are you see. I have to work out my own salvation. It’s all about me.

Not so fast, says Paul: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

There you are you see, says the quietist, God does the working. To which Paul says, “Were you not listening to the first part of the sentence?” That’s not in Philippians by the way, but I hope you can see my point.

Scripture gives us a much more “wholistic” view of how we’re to understand the Christian life. We are to work, and work hard, for holiness, but as we do that, we do it in the knowledge that it is God who is working in us to make us more like Christ. And actually, according to Paul, the very reason that we keep striving for holiness is precisely because we know that God is working in us when we do so. If you knew that God would be at work in you when you are at work, wouldn’t that motivate you to work all the more?

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/simply-put/quietism-and-activism#:~:text=How%20do%20we,Ways

I think this is what it is all about.
J.

 

[Johann]

https://www.ligonier.org/podcasts/simply-put/quietism-and-activism

Quietism has its roots in a 17th Century Roman Catholic movement. It’s most associated with a Spanish priest called Miguel de Molinos, a French mystic called Madame Guyon, and a French Archbishop and writer called Francois Fenelon.

They were associated with the idea that the sanctification of the Christian is exclusively the work of the Holy Spirit. In other words, as far as your personal godliness is concerned, there is nothing for you to do except get out of the way, and let God do all the work. Let go of your own will, and any illusion that you can affect your own sanctification in any way, and just allow God to do it. “Let go and let God” is the way some have characterized it.

Think of it as a spiritual car wash. Your job is to sit there while you pass through the various brushes and hoses and dryers, and do nothing. In fact, you’re actively discouraged from doing anything. Leave the car in neutral with the handbrake off, take your feet off the pedals, get your hands off the steering wheel, and don’t even think about touching the moonroof.

That, according to Quietism, is the Christian life. You must calmly resign yourself to the conveyor belt of sanctification, and don’t go getting any funny ideas about, you know, actually striving to live a holy life.

As is often the case with theological mistakes, you can also fall off the horse on the other side. There is an equal and opposite error to quietism, and it’s called activism. That’s the view that not only should you not be passive in the Christian life, actually your growth as a believer is ALL about you. You can’t be relying on the Holy Spirit to do anything for you. You’d better be working incredibly hard, ALL the time, otherwise you’ll never be sanctified.

Most of us tend to fall off the horse one way or the other. Are you more likely to be a quietist or an activist?

Well, Scripture rules out both. To take one particular verse, think about what the Apostle Paul says in Philippians chapter 2 verse 12: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. Ah, says the activist, there you are you see. I have to work out my own salvation. It’s all about me.

1. Not so fast, says Paul: “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

There you are you see, says the quietist, God does the working. To which Paul says, “Were you not listening to the first part of the sentence?” That’s not in Philippians by the way, but I hope you can see my point.

Scripture gives us a much more “wholistic” view of how we’re to understand the Christian life. We are to work, and work hard, for holiness, but as we do that, we do it in the knowledge that it is God who is working in us to make us more like Christ. And actually, according to Paul, the very reason that we keep striving for holiness is precisely because we know that God is working in us when we do so. If you knew that God would be at work in you when you are at work, wouldn’t that motivate you to work all the more?

Are you a quietist brother?

Quietism
R.C. Sproul
Ephesians 3:20–21
The two great heresies that have plagued the church on the issue of sanctification for centuries are the heresies of activism and quietism. The twin distortions are guilty of eliminating one or the other pole of the paradox. In activism, God’s working is swallowed up by human self-righteousness. In quietism, the human struggle is swallowed up by an automatic divine process.

Activism is the creed of the self-righteous person. He has no need of divine assistance to achieve perfection. Grace is held in contempt, a remedy needed only by weak people. The activist can lift himself up by his own bootstraps. His confidence is in himself and his moral ability. Perhaps the most arrogant statement a person can make is this: “I don’t need Christ.”

The quietist insults the Holy Spirit by insisting that God is totally responsible for his progress or lack of it. If the quietist still sins, the unspoken assumption is that God has been lacking in His work. The creed of the quietist is, “Let go and let God.” No struggle is necessary; no resistance to temptation is required. Sanctification is God’s job, from beginning to end.

God calls us to the pursuit of holiness. The pursuit is to be undertaken with strength and resolution. We are to resist unto blood, to wrestle with powers, to pummel our bodies, rejoicing in the certainty that the Holy Spirit is within us helping, disposing, convicting, and encouraging.

Coram Deo
Are you an activist, rejecting God’s assistance—or a quietist, insisting that He is totally responsible for your spiritual progress or lack of it?

 

[Gilligan]

You've written a lot of theory, so what about the practise?

If you mean waiting on God to stop us from lust and sinning, then I disagree. Jesus resisted all temptation all His life with the Father, and we must do the same with the Son and the Father.

If you mean being patient in the Lord, while doing our part with Him to cleanse ourselves of filthiness spiritually and physically, then I agree.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23:26)

Jesus commands us to do our part for our sanctification, even as He did.

If you mean we are to quietly bide our time while lusting and vainly imagining things, until God comes to slap it away, then I disagree again.

If you mean we are to cast down all such stinking thinking of the devil, by help of His power and grace, then I agree again.

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds. (2 Cor 10:4)

We are to keep our hearts and minds clean from lusting and envying with the world, so that we can be sanctified and clean in righteous and holy living.

If you mean we have no part in being saved and justified with god, by repenting and keeping ourselves from sinning, then I greatly disagree.

If you mean we are to do our part with the Lord, to make our election sure, so that we never fall, then I abundantly agree.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)

If quietism is the passivism of not adding and doing those things necessary to ensure we don't fall into sin and temptation again, then it's a lukewarm recipe for those that don't want to do their necessary work not to fall, They quietly go on with two hearts, rather than singleness of heart in Christ.

In recent years, there’ve been some high profile examples of this. Reacting against what they see as legalism or moralism - the call to “do more, try harder” in the Christian life -


That, according to Quietism, is the Christian life. You must calmly resign yourself to the conveyor belt of sanctification, and don’t go getting any funny ideas about, you know, actually striving to live a holy life.



Scripture gives us a much more “wholistic” view of how we’re to understand the Christian life. We are to work, and work hard, for holiness, but as we do that, we do it in the knowledge that it is God who is working in us to make us more like Christ. And actually, according to Paul, the very reason that we keep striving for holiness is precisely because we know that God is working in us when we do so. If you knew that God would be at work in you when you are at work, wouldn’t that motivate you to work all the more?

We're not to sanctify our lives according to our own standard of holiness. Neither do we try to be sanctified nor to live holy. We are sanctified and cleansed and made holy in purity of heart, soul, spirit, and life, the very moment we are forgiven and washed in the blood of Jesus. He sanctifies us wholly first, then with Him we keep ourselves sanctified according to His holiness. God's standard of holiness is found in His word and law of Christ.

Our work of faith and part in being saved, is to keep ourselves sanctified that way, and not allow the lust of the world to be in us, and the works of the flesh to be done by us.

We don't forgive, save, nor justify ourselves from our past lives, which only God can do by faith in Jesus Christ. But we are to keep ourselves saved, justified, and forgiven by keeping ourselves clean and holy and pure for His name's sake.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18)

We don't clean ourselves up to be acceptable to God, but we do keep ourselves clean as He has made us clean, to remain acceptable to God. What we only can do for our past life, we continue to do for the present.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2 Cor 7:1)

Once forgiven, saved, cleansed, justified and sanctified by Christ, we keep cleaning our new man and house in fellowship with Him. We don't clean up our house to our standards, and then open the door to Him, but when we do open the door to Him, He enters making all things clean and new by His Light and Spirit. We then keep it that way with Him in the fellowship of His Light and Spirit.

We repent, He saves, and we live clean of sin with Him. Simple.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

 

[Gilligan]

If man has no free will nor power to choose what to do:
1. Man is not made in God's image. Man is just another beast of the field commanded to be fruitful and multiply.
2. Man would do every commandment of God without will nor thought, just like the whales of the sea and the fowls of the air.
3. If God reigns over men without their will, then no man would sin nor do evil against God. Any evil doing would be God's will alone.
4. Like the beasts, man would have no faith to do anything by faith.
5. It is that God tempts and commands men to sin, if they sin.
6. It would be impossible to disobey God, who commands the light to shine out of darkness, and it does.
7. Jesus Christ had no free will to choose what to do as a man.

Not doing God's will is proof both angels and men are created with free will to resist God and do evil instead.