Was Peter’S Vision About Food Or About Men?

[Eccl.12:13]

Let's read God’s holy word to see for ourselves.

Acts 10
[1] There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

So we see that Cornelius was a non-Jew.

[2] A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
[3] He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

But Cornelius and his family feared God, gave to the poor and prayed always.

[5] And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
[6] He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

So he was given a vision and instructions to seek after Peter and would be told what to do.

[9] On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
[10] And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
[11] And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

While this was taking place Peter also was given a vision.

[12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
[13] And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.




Peter saw ALL manner of food and was told to kill and eat. Now let's take in Peter's reply;


[14] But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

So even AFTER Jesus died on the cross Peter STILL did not eat anything that was unclean. But some say Jesus did away with the dietary laws! Peter must have missed that sermon. Let's continue;

[15] And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
[16] This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

In Peter's vision this was done (3) times.

[17] Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

Peter DOUBTED what this vision could mean. While he was thinking about it the men the angel sent arrived.

[19] While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
[20] Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

The meeting of Cornelius, a Gentile; and Peter, a Jew was SUPPOSED to happen. The (2) visions were connected. And Peter was told not to doubt anything when he met with the men, for they were sent by God.

[25] And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
[26] But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
[27] And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.

So they met and there were many with Cornelius.

　

[28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation;

Peter then told them how it was unlawful (by the Jews law) for him to have a non-Jew, or ANY of another nation come into his house.

BUT LOOK WHAT WAS REVEALED TO PETER..............

[28]......but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Was the vision about God's dietary laws? Of course not! The vision was to let Peter know it was now time for the Gentiles and ALL other nations to receive the word of God.

Let's read what Peter says after he hears the complete story from the men that came with Cornelius;

[33] Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Peter is now about to say EVERYTHING that resulted in his vision and the events that followed, as they were, "ALL THINGS THAT ARE COMMANDED THEE OF GOD."

Now let's read if one of the things that was "...COMMANDED THEE OF GOD...", was doing away with His dietary laws;


[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
[35] But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Again....no mention of food. Would not this have been the time to say it?


After all, Peter said he would say, "ALL THINGS THAT ARE COMMANDED THEE OF GOD."! So why did he not say anything about God‘s dietary laws being done away with?


So now Peter understood the vision. It was about MEN not being called unclean and NOT food.

Now let's confirm this. Let's see if Peter said anything about God's dietary law being done away with when he told the story over.

Acts 11
[1] And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
[2] And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
[3] Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

So when the Jews of Jerusalem heard what Peter had done they were mad at him. Now do you think the Jews were upset about what food was being eaten? NO! They were mad because one of their own not only had associations with Gentiles, but had given them the word of God. But let's read what Peter did and said;

[4] But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

Peter went over everything that happened, because Peter knew how upset those Jews would be.

First Peter tells of his vision;

[5] I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
[6] Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
[7] And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
[8] But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
[9] But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
[10] And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven

　

Then Peter tell what happened next;

[11] And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
[12] And the spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
[13] And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
[14] Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
[15] And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

Now let's see at what time God's dietary law was mentioned;

[16] Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

No mention of food there;

[17] Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Not there;

[18] When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying,

And why did they hold their peace? Let's read;

[18]......Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So even when Peter repeated his story the outcome was still the same.


Now at what point was Peter’s vision ever about God's Dietary laws?

　


Did you know Jesus will kill people for eating certain foods when He returns? Lesson to come soon.



..

 

[veteran]

You are correct, God did not change His laws about food created to be received. However, Apostle Paul did say this...

1 Cor 10:23-31
23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?
30 For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
(KJV)

That still doesn't mean God's food laws changed. But it does mean we have a certain liberty in Christ to further The Gospel to the unsaved, but not to the point of false worship. If we find ourselves on a deserted island, eat to stay alive, but back in civilization we should naturally want to get back to eating per God's health laws. Likewise at the house of an unbeliever, eat for The Gospel's sake, but don't continue in it for the body's sake.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

However, Apostle Paul did say this...

Not understanding the writings of Paul is going to cause a LOT of people to see their own destruction!

Let's read a warning, given to us by somebody that actually knew Paul;

2 Pet.3
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul is the ONLY writer in the entire bible where we are given a warning about understanding his writings. Peter tells us that in ALL of his epistles, some things are HARD to understand if you are not learned and stable in the word of God. And if you are not learned and stable, you may try to understand, but be careful, if you get it wrong, it could lead to your own destruction.

Now Peter and Paul knew each other. Lived at the same time and spoke the same language. Now if Peter is writing and giving this warning to those of his time, why is it that almost everyone runs to Paul’s writings, almost 2000 years, and many translations later, thinking they know or even understand what it is he is saying?



I am not saying anyone is "...unlearned...", just that they may have missed the topic Paul is talking about. Let's read a few verses up...


1 Cor.10
[19] What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

The topic is IDOLS! NOT clean or unclean foods!!

[25] Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Here Paul tells us not worry about if meats/foods bought in meathouses were offered to IDOLS!

Now let's look and understand the next verse very clearly....

[26] For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

This is true.....the earth IS the Lord's and even ALL of it. But at what point did GOD, not Paul, say it was ok to eat everything upon this earth? NEVER!!!!

Who is the ONLY one that can say something is HOLY? GOD...NOT Paul!
Who is the ONLY one that can call something an ABOMINATION? GOD...NOT Paul!
Who is the ONLY one that can declare what is clean or unclean? GOD...NOT Paul!

Who is the ONLY one that can change it....................?
"For I am the LORD, I change not..."
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."


The topic is about things that are offered to idols. Let's confirm in the next verses......


[27] If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.

Again.....what is the topic? Things offered to IDOLS! And Paul is saying not to worry if what is put before you was offered to idols.

[28] But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

Again, Paul tells us the topic of converstion....things offered to idols.

What Paul is telling them is not worry if the meat that is put in front of you was left overs from meat that was offered to idols. As long as it is "clean" then eat.


As far as the following.....

If we find ourselves on a deserted island, eat to stay alive,

In ALL of my travels, 23yrs retired Air Force, I have never been to a place where I could not find clean foods to eat. God will ALWAYS provide.....just as He has done in the past....

Dan.1
[8] But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
[9] Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.
[10] And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.
[11] Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,
[12] Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
[13] Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
[14] So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.
[15] And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.



.




Will get to replies Mon. Have a blessed Sabbath!!!!

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Did you know Jesus will kill people for eating unclean foods when He returns? Lesson to come soon.

 

[bud02]

Not understanding the writings of Paul is going to cause a LOT of people to see their own destruction!

Let's read a warning, given to us by somebody that actually knew Paul;

2 Pet.3
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul is the ONLY writer in the entire bible where we are given a warning about understanding his writings. Peter tells us that in ALL of his epistles, some things are HARD to understand if you are not learned and stable in the word of God. And if you are not learned and stable, you may try to understand, but be careful, if you get it wrong, it could lead to your own destruction.

Now Peter and Paul knew each other. Lived at the same time and spoke the same language. Now if Peter is writing and giving this warning to those of his time, why is it that almost everyone runs to Paul’s writings, almost 2000 years, and many translations later, thinking they know or even understand what it is he is saying?



I am not saying anyone is "...unlearned...", just that they may have missed the topic Paul is talking about. Let's read a few verses up...

Well I'm going to say that someone was unlearned and that someone was Peter. I'm lazy right now so I'll just C/P someone elses comments about the case between Peter and Paul. Peter himself had a difficult time understanding. It is no easy thing to unlearn the things that were taught for a life time, I'm referring to the Law of Mosses, Judaism ect.
As for you to use such a verse to discredit anything Paul taught, so you to can enslave men to anything but the grace of our Lord is uncalled for. I will not argue the point that those that do such things under their own convictions or conviction of the Holy Spirit do so for the Lord. To echo your statement, "Not understanding the writings of Paul is going to cause a LOT of people to see their own destruction"! that person may well be you "Did you know Jesus will kill people for eating certain foods when He returns? Lesson to come soon". I'll be watching for it.

Romans 8 [sup]1[/sup] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [sup]2[/sup] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [sup]3[/sup] For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Look I love the SDA, admire their convictions, and their understanding of scripture is outstanding, but just remember, unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. The Spirit convicts and leads some to your church and some to another where Christ is taught, some to abstain and others to partake. We are all on a personal path directed by God threw His Holy Spirit. I don't condemn your personal convictions but please don't think all Christians must comply with your personal conviction and experience.

[sup]37[/sup] Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. [sup]38[/sup] This is the first and great commandment. [sup]39[/sup] And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself. [sup]40[/sup] On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

C/P Some from Judea had taught the brethren, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." It was an attempt to revive Judaism, and to impose its ritualistic observances on the Gentile believers as a condition of salvation. Peter had been taught the folly of this in a remarkable manner (see Acts 10: 9-16); and for the time he learned his lesson, for he said to Cornelius, "Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean" (v. 28); and after Peter had returned to Jerusalem he justified his conduct in eating with uncircumcised persons. Still further, when he went to Antioch he at first ate with the Gentiles; but when certain came from James, "he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision." (Gal. 2: 12.) The effect was, Peter's influence being so great, "the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation." Paul was thus left alone in his contention, that "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." The great question then was very simple. Was anything, circumcision or anything else, necessary for justification in addition to faith in Christ Jesus? If Peter had the mind of the Lord in separating himself from the Gentile believers at Antioch, there was evidently something else required. For why did he now refuse to eat with them? Solely on the ground that they were uncircumcised. (v. 12.) If then Peter were right, circumcision was still for profit, inasmuch as it conferred an advantage on the Jew. In other words, a work of the law must be added to faith in Christ for justification. It was a small thing, it might have been argued, and if the point were but yielded peace between the Jewish and Gentile believers would be established and preserved. But this "small thing" undermined the whole truth of grace, and cast a slur upon the work of Christ. It was therefore a supreme moment in the history of the Church; and to have accepted this addition to the gospel of Christ would have perverted it, made it "another gospel," to preach which would bring down God's displeasure and judgment. Hence Paul said, "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Chapter 1: 6-9.)

Paul therefore had no other alternative, if he would be faithful to the trust committed to him, than to withstand Peter to the face because he was to be condemned.* Peter was not, at this moment, walking "uprightly according to the truth of the gospel"; and consequently, painful as it must have been to Paul, he had to be rebuked. The case would not have been met by dissociation from Peter's practice, or by withdrawing to another field of service, for the maintenance of the truth of God was involved. In the presence of all the believers at Antioch, Paul therefore exposed and condemned the action of his fellow-servant; and the proof that he was in communion with the mind of God in doing so is the fact that he was led, as inspired of the Holy Spirit, to preserve the record of the contention. Peter, on the other hand, makes no allusion to it in his epistles; but to show that grace wrought in his heart for restoration, and hence, that he fully accepted the action of his younger colleague, he was guided to speak of "our beloved brother Paul" and of his writings. It was fidelity to God that administered the rebuke, and it was grace that enabled Peter to profit by it; and the issue was the preservation of the gospel of Christ.

 

[jiggyfly]

Ahhhh I see, God lied to Peter in a dream so Peter would go to see Cornelius.



[font="'trebuchet ms"]How do you fit this scripture into your concept?[/font]
"We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but they had no such instructions from us. So it seemed good to us, having unanimously agreed on our decision, to send you these official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas to tell you what we have decided concerning your question. "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these requirements: You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell." Acts 15:24-29

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Ahhhh I see, God lied to Peter in a dream so Peter would go to see Cornelius.



How do you fit this scripture into your concept?
"We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but they had no such instructions from us. So it seemed good to us, having unanimously agreed on our decision, to send you these official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas to tell you what we have decided concerning your question. "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these requirements: You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or eating the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell." Acts 15:24-29

I will answer your question first.....since it is easy!

Let's start with something simple....

For those just learning math, do you go right to algebra, or do you ease them into it with something basic?

For those learning anything that may be new to them, do you teach them ALL they need to know up front?

Of course not! You ease them into it. Should the word of God be any different? No!

For those that are new to the word of God and His teachings, do you jump right into everything they need to know all at once, or do you ease them into knowing what it is God wants and expects of them?

Let's let the scriptures answer it for us.....

Rom. 2
[17] Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
[18] And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
[19] And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
[20] An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Now are the "babes" referred to above toddlers? Of course not! Paul is speaking about infants in the sense that these new converts are just learning about this "new" religion! Let's read more......

1 Cor. 3
[1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Here we have Paul again telling followers how he must first give them the milk of the word and not meat. Why? Because they cannot handle the little things yet.

Now let's see how Peter handled a similar situation....

1 Pet. 2
[1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Notice Peter said, "...that they may grow...". And how do you grow in the word of God. By reading and gaining more wisdom and understanding in God's word.

So you ask,

How do you fit this scripture into your concept?

It fit's by the examples given. The readers must understand what is happening at this moment in time.

There were new converts and the word of God was speading like a wild fire. There were some disputes among the apostles and it took time for messages to get from one place to another.

For that period of time they decided upon this......

"...That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

Now do you really think that was ALL they were to keep themselves from? Of course not! Do you not they they were to avoid, stealing, murder, adultry, lying? Of course they were! But for these "...newborn babes..." in the word of God, the apostles figured this would be good for now.

Now let's see what Paul said later about the same issue......

1 Cor.10
[19] What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
[28] But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

So what the apostles decided upon was good for those converts in Acts, but after thinking about it Paul realized that idols were nothing and leftover meat that may have been sacrificed to idols was also nothing.

But again.....the issue here is not about "clean or unclean meats", just about meats that were offered to idols.



Did you know Jesus will kill people for eating unclean foods when He returns? Lesson to come soon.
.

 

[gregg]

Jesus did say it's not what you eat that defiles a man but what you say.
RED LETTERS WIN

 

[Eccl.12:13]

[/size]
Romans 8 [sup]1[/sup] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [sup]2[/sup] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [sup]3[/sup] For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why do people not include ALL of what Paul says. Let's first read what Paul said about God's laws in the previous chapter.

Rom. 7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Now if Paul did not know what sin was without God's laws, how will new convert's know what sin is without God's laws? And if Paul is to teach them NOT to sin where must he go to show them what sin is? THE LAW!!! Let's read more.....

[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Now when was Paul alive without the law? When he was doing the things he thought was ok to do. Just as some of us were out in the world sinning. But what happened to Paul's old man when he came to the knowledge of God's laws? Let's read it again, "...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died"

When Paul was given God's commandments, it let him know what sin was and guess what happened to that old Paul, the one that used to be alive? He DIED!!!! Just as some of us; once we found the word/laws of God our old self died. Let's continue.....

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

What commandment was ordained to give life? God's laws! That is the ONLY way to know what sin is! Because if you do your best to KEEP God's laws, that means you are NOT doing what it takes to cause you the second death.....SIN! And what happened when Paul received God's laws? It killed his old self!!! Now let's read what Paul has to say about God's laws....

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

So not only did Paul say the commandments brought life, he also said they were holy, just and good!

Now how can he make that claim, then make the claim you THINK he makes, that God's laws have been nailed to the cross?

You cannot have it both ways!!! If there were no laws how would we know what was sin?

Now let's look at the verse you presented....

[3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The reader should be asking themselves something here....


What was it that that law could not do?

Afterall, Paul just told us in the previous chapter that the commandment was ordained to life and that the law was holy, just and good?



Here are just a few clues to help you find the answer.....


Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that failed?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that God never liked, but allowed so that He would not have to kill His creation?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that could not make the people perfect?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that was only to be around for a little while?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that was "added" because the people kept breaking God's other laws?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that required "works" or "deeds"?


YES!!!! YES!!!! YES!!!!


If you do not get this...............you need to study the writings of Paul a little more!!!!




.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

C/P Some from Judea had taught the brethren, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." It was an attempt to revive Judaism, and to impose its ritualistic observances on the Gentile believers as a condition of salvation.

Do you believe you can be "uncircumcised" and get into God's kingdom?

If so, you really need to go back and read the OT!

Peter and Paul may have had issues concerning somethings, but they both agreed on what was needed for salvation!

C/P Was anything, circumcision or anything else, necessary for justification in addition to faith in Christ Jesus?

Are you also under the assumption that "FAITH" in Christ alone is the only thing needed for salvation?

If so, you need to re-read the "WHOLE" bible!

As a matter of fact, let's read just how complete the bible of Jesus time was....

2 Tim.3
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And what were the holy scriptures Timothy read as a child? The only ones available, the books; Gen. to Mal.

And yes....Paul does say that salvation will come through faith in Christ Jesus. But does Paul EVER say that faith and faith ONLY is what is needed? NEVER!! Let's read some of what Paul said is needed for salvation...


Rom.10
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This is true. But is more needed? Let's read what the great Paul has to say.....


[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So we must call on the name of the Lord for salvation. But how does one get to that point? Paul tells us....

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Working backwards here First we needed a preacher to give the true word of God! Then you need to believe in the word that was given. Then you need to call on the name of Jesus. But what about the preacher? Let's read....

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So it can't be just ANY preacher, but one sent by God.

Now are we to listen to the writings of Paul only? Of course not! Let's read what your God and judge says we should do.....

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Now for those during Jesus time "every word" was Gen. to Mal.

For us today it is Gen. to Rev......including the writings of Peter, John and ALL of the rest of the apostles.

So guess what.....that also means it takes "works" to get into God's kingdom. But that's only if you believe on ALL of God's words.

But hey.....don't believe me....read and trust in the God's words!


It takes more than just faith in Christ to enter into God's kingdom!!!!


.

 

[bud02]

Do you believe you can be "uncircumcised" and get into God's kingdom?

If so, you really need to go back and read the OT!

Peter and Paul may have had issues concerning somethings, but they both agreed on what was needed for salvation!



Are you also under the assumption that "FAITH" in Christ alone is the only thing needed for salvation?

If so, you need to re-read the "WHOLE" bible!

As a matter of fact, let's read just how complete the bible of Jesus time was....

2 Tim.3
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And what were the holy scriptures Timothy read as a child? The only ones available, the books; Gen. to Mal.

And yes....Paul does say that salvation will come through faith in Christ Jesus. But does Paul EVER say that faith and faith ONLY is what is needed? NEVER!! Let's read some of what Paul said is needed for salvation...


Rom.10
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This is true. But is more needed? Let's read what the great Paul has to say.....


[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So we must call on the name of the Lord for salvation. But how does one get to that point? Paul tells us....

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Working backwards here First we needed a preacher to give the true word of God! Then you need to believe in the word that was given. Then you need to call on the name of Jesus. But what about the preacher? Let's read....

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So it can't be just ANY preacher, but one sent by God.

Now are we to listen to the writings of Paul only? Of course not! Let's read what your God and judge says we should do.....

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Now for those during Jesus time "every word" was Gen. to Mal.

For us today it is Gen. to Rev......including the writings of Peter, John and ALL of the rest of the apostles.

So guess what.....that also means it takes "works" to get into God's kingdom. But that's only if you believe on ALL of God's words.

But hey.....don't believe me....read and trust in the God's words!


It takes more than just faith in Christ to enter into God's kingdom!!!!


.

I haven't read anything you posted regarding circumcision or eating. Its all passive, if you understand my meaning.
Like I said before If you feel the need to follow some action in the flesh then by all means do so. But Paul teaches differently.

 

[jiggyfly]

I haven't read anything you posted regarding circumcision or eating. Its all passive, if you understand my meaning.
Like I said before If you feel the need to follow some action in the flesh then by all means do so. But Paul teaches differently.

Dido.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

I haven't read anything you posted regarding circumcision or eating. Its all passive, if you understand my meaning.

No. I do not understand. Please explain.

Are you saying faith and faith alone is all that is needed for salvation?

Or are you just choosing not to reply to my post concerning what Paul had to say about God's laws in Rom. 7 and how you cannot do away with God's law when they are needed to know what sin is?

Or do you just not know what law Paul speaks of that failed, God never liked, could not make the people perfect, was only to be around for a short time, was added to God's other laws and required works and deeds?

Or maybe you were not aware that circumcision for both Jew's and the stranger was needed to get into God's kingdom?


Again.....please explain! What is it you are not reading and why?



.


.

Dido.

And you......you have no response to the question you asked that I answered?

Was it not to your liking, or does it just make too much sense that there is no need to reply?



.

 

[bud02]

Here is romans 7. If you would please find the part that you wish to speak about. Paul has already summarized in the very last statement. If you don't understand that we are saved threw faith and that is not of ourselves. Then you really don't understand the NT. And as badly as ?I hate to say it you are probably not born of the Spirit. I mean that in a positve way and not to belittle you but that you may come to understand salvation and enter into the peace of salvation, the rest of the Lord. You should know that the Lord rested on the sevevthday. Now enter into the completed work of Jesus, and rest.





Romans 7 (New King James Version)

Romans 7

Freed from the Law
[sup]1[/sup] Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? [sup]2[/sup] For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. [sup]3[/sup] So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. [sup]4[/sup] Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. [sup]5[/sup] For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. [sup]6[/sup] But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Sin’s Advantage in the Law

[sup]7[/sup] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[sup][a][/sup] [sup]8[/sup] But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. [sup]9[/sup] I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. [sup]10[/sup] And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. [sup]11[/sup] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Law Cannot Save from Sin

[sup]13[/sup] Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. [sup]14[/sup] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. [sup]15[/sup] For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. [sup]16[/sup] If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. [sup]17[/sup] But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. [sup]18[/sup] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. [sup]19[/sup] For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. [sup]20[/sup] Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
[sup]21[/sup] I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. [sup]22[/sup] For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [sup]23[/sup] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [sup]24[/sup] O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [sup]25[/sup] I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Footnotes:

1. Romans 7:7 Exodus 20:17; Deuteronomy 5:21

 

[jiggyfly]

No. I do not understand. Please explain.

Are you saying faith and faith alone is all that is needed for salvation?

Or are you just choosing not to reply to my post concerning what Paul had to say about God's laws in Rom. 7 and how you cannot do away with God's law when they are needed to know what sin is?

Or do you just not know what law Paul speaks of that failed, God never liked, could not make the people perfect, was only to be around for a short time, was added to God's other laws and required works and deeds?

Or maybe you were not aware that circumcision for both Jew's and the stranger was needed to get into God's kingdom?


Again.....please explain! What is it you are not reading and why?



.


.



And you......you have no response to the question you asked that I answered?

Was it not to your liking, or does it just make too much sense that there is no need to reply?



.

You didn't give an acceptable answer and your reasoning is flawed, it actually makes no sense but you preach another gospel than what is found in the new testament scriptures. According to your interpretation of Acts 10 God is a liar so I reject your flawed and errant thinking.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Why do you not answer my questions?


Speak with some authority!!!!

Prove what you mean with scriptures....


Are you saying faith and faith alone is all that is needed for salvation according to Paul? Yes or No? Book, chapter and verse!


Do you know what law Paul speaks of that failed, God never liked, could not make the people perfect, was only to be around for a short time, was added to God's other laws and required works and deeds? Yes or No?

What law of God does Paul serve?

How can God's laws be both nailed to the cross and are yet needed to know what sin is?

Please explain where Paul went to find this out,"...Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."?

If ALL of God's laws were, in fact, nailed to His cross, where did Paul go to find out that to covet was wrong?

And once he found out, do you not think he told others that to covet was wrong? And what did he use to prove it? He went to the writings of Moses!

For those reading this thread....does that make any sense?

Does it make sense that ALL of God's laws were nailed to his cross?

Of course not!!!

But there was ONE set of laws that were!

If you can answer the questions that I presented you will find the one set of laws that were nailed to His cross;


Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that failed?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that God never liked, but allowed so that He would not have to kill His creation?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that could not make the people perfect?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that was only to be around for a little while?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that was "added" because the people kept breaking God's other laws?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that required "works" or "deeds"?

Yes!!!! There is a law that answers ALL of the above!

But it was not, thou shall not kill, lie, steal, covet, commit adultry, worship idols or ANY of the other (10), nor dietary, or moral laws!

It was ONE law and ONE law only that was nailed to His cross!!!

You didn't give an acceptable answer and your reasoning is flawed,

I did not give an acceptable answer to YOU!

Please explain how my reasoning is flawed!

Please explain why Paul agreed to this....

"...That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

And later told other this....
"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:"

Please tell the readers how Paul went from telling one set of converts to abstain from eating things sacrificed to idols and then telling another set of converts it was ok?

Please.....Book, chapter and verse....please!!!!

You didn't give an acceptable answer and your reasoning is flawed, it actually makes no sense but you preach another gospel than what is found in the new testament scriptures. According to your interpretation of Acts 10 God is a liar so I reject your flawed and errant thinking.

I did not give an acceptable answer to YOU!

Please explain how my reasoning is flawed!

Please explain why Paul agreed to this....

"...That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

And later told other this....
"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:"

Please tell the readers how Paul went from telling one set of converts to abstain from eating things sacrificed to idols and then telling another set of converts it was ok?

Please.....Book, chapter and verse....please!!!!

 

[bud02]

Why do you not answer my questions?


Speak with some authority!!!!

Prove what you mean with scriptures....


Are you saying faith and faith alone is all that is needed for salvation according to Paul? Yes or No? Book, chapter and verse!

Yes, that is what the book of Romans is about.


Ephesians 2
[sup]4[/sup] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [sup]5[/sup] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [sup]6[/sup] and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [sup]7[/sup] that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [sup]8[/sup] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9[/sup] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [sup]10[/sup] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Do you know what law Paul speaks of that failed, God never liked, could not make the people perfect, was only to be around for a short time, was added to God's other laws and required works and deeds? Yes or No?

No other works or dead's. please read the above verse carefully. If you understand that then I will show you the works after you are saved. [sup]10[/sup] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, "WHAT WORKS YOU SAY" which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

What law of God does Paul serve?

The Law of the Spirit.

Romans 8
[sup]1[/sup] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[sup][a][/sup] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [sup]2[/sup] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [sup]3[/sup] For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [sup]5[/sup] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

How can God's laws be both nailed to the cross and are yet needed to know what sin is?

Big subject has to do with Eve and Adam eating from the tree of KNOWLEDGE.

Please explain where Paul went to find this out,"...Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."?

Paul was a Pharisee so to speak, educated in the highest order of the day. He knew the word of the old testament inside and out. He first killed the Christians thinking he was doing a good thing. Below are His credentals to teach from the risen Christ Himself.

The Damascus Road: Saul Converted
[sup]1[/sup] Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest [sup]2[/sup] and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
[sup]3[/sup] As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. [sup]4[/sup] Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
[sup]5[/sup] And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[sup][a][/sup] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
[sup]6[/sup] So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
[sup]7[/sup] And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. [sup]8[/sup] Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. [sup]9[/sup] And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
Ananias Baptizes Saul

[sup]10[/sup] Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
[sup]11[/sup] So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. [sup]12[/sup] And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
[sup]13[/sup] Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. [sup]14[/sup] And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
[sup]15[/sup] But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. [sup]16[/sup] For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
[sup]17[/sup] And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[sup][b][/sup] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” [sup]18[/sup] Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
[sup]19[/sup] So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.

If ALL of God's laws were, in fact, nailed to His cross, where did Paul go to find out that to covet was wrong?

Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments
[sup]1[/sup] And God spoke all these words, saying:
[sup]2[/sup] “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[sup]3[/sup] “You shall have no other gods before Me.
[sup]4[/sup] “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [sup]5[/sup] you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, [sup]6[/sup] but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
[sup]7[/sup] “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
[sup]8[/sup] “ Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. [sup]9[/sup] Six days you shall labor and do all your work, [sup]10[/sup] but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. [sup]11[/sup] For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
[sup]12[/sup] “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
[sup]13[/sup] “You shall not murder.
[sup]14[/sup] “You shall not commit adultery.
[sup]15[/sup] “You shall not steal.
[sup]16[/sup] “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
[sup]17[/sup] “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

And once he found out, do you not think he told others that to covet was wrong? And what did he use to prove it? He went to the writings of Moses!

For those reading this thread....does that make any sense?

Does it make sense that ALL of God's laws were nailed to his cross?

Of course not!!!

But there was ONE set of laws that were!

If you can answer the questions that I presented you will find the one set of laws that were nailed to His cross;


Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that failed?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that God never liked, but allowed so that He would not have to kill His creation?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that could not make the people perfect?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that was only to be around for a little while?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that was "added" because the people kept breaking God's other laws?

Could Paul be speaking of ANOTHER law that required "works" or "deeds"?

Yes!!!! There is a law that answers ALL of the above!

But it was not, thou shall not kill, lie, steal, covet, commit adultry, worship idols or ANY of the other (10), nor dietary, or moral laws!

It was ONE law and ONE law only that was nailed to His cross!!!


Bud02
Please I'm waiting in eager anticipation to know the answer.

Romans 8:[sup]19[/sup]The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

 

[jiggyfly]

I did not give an acceptable answer to YOU!

Please explain how my reasoning is flawed!

Please explain why Paul agreed to this....

"...That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

And later told other this....
"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:"

Please tell the readers how Paul went from telling one set of converts to abstain from eating things sacrificed to idols and then telling another set of converts it was ok?

Please.....Book, chapter and verse....please!!!!

If you would regard context when reading scripture it would help you to gain a better understanding of the meaning. In Acts 15:24-29 who was speaking?

Here's something Paul said that I find is very conflicting with your paradigm.

Whatever happens, dear brothers and sisters, [fn] may the Lord give you joy. I never get tired of telling you this. I am doing this for your own good. Watch out for those dogs, those wicked men and their evil deeds, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. For we who worship God in the Spirit [fn] are the only ones who are truly circumcised. We put no confidence in human effort. Instead, we boast about what Christ Jesus has done for us.
Yet I could have confidence in myself if anyone could. If others have reason for confidence in their own efforts, I have even more! For I was circumcised when I was eight days old, having been born into a pure-blooded Jewish family that is a branch of the tribe of Benjamin. So I am a real Jew if there ever was one! What's more, I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. And zealous? Yes, in fact, I harshly persecuted the church. And I obeyed the Jewish law so carefully that I was never accused of any fault.
I once thought all these things were so very important, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the priceless gain of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I may have Christ and become one with him. I no longer count on my own goodness or my ability to obey God's law, but I trust Christ to save me. For God's way of making us right with himself depends on faith. Philippians 3:1-9

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Watch out for those dogs, those wicked men and their evil deeds, those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. Philippians 3:2

Before going ANY further let's get a clear understanding of God's word. Please explain how the above verse you supplied comes anywhere close to what is found below in the KJV.

Phil.3
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

How on earth did you get, "...those mutilators who say you must be circumcised to be saved. ..."

If you are relying on translations such as this I can very well see how you are being misled.

Next....how did what you presented explain the following.....?


Please explain why Paul agreed to this....

"...That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

And later told other this....

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:"

What you presented does NOT explain why Paul agreed to abstaining from things offered to idols then to saying it was not ok to do so, if it did not bother you!

Also....do you really think ALL that is needed for these new converts to obtain salvation is to ONLY those things written in the letter to them, which was the following;

"[29] That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

Do you really think the above was ALL they had to do for salvation?

So lying, coveting, murder, stealing, fornication and every other sin was OK! As long as they did what was in the letter; "...abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well..." salvation was their's?

Does that make sense? NO!!!!!

Again, for those that are new to the word of God and His teachings, do you jump right into everything they need to know all at once, or do you ease them into knowing what it is God wants and expects of them?

Of course not! You do just as the apostle's did...


Rom. 2
[17] Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
[18] And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
[19] And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
[20] An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Paul is speaking about infants in the sense that these new converts are just learning about this "new" religion!

1 Cor. 3
[1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Here we have Paul again telling followers how he must first give them the milk of the word and not meat. Why? Because they cannot handle the little things yet.

1 Pet. 2
[1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Notice Peter said, "...that they may grow...". And how do you grow in the word of God. By reading and gaining more wisdom and understanding in God's word.


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[Eccl.12:13]

Yes, that is what the book of Romans is about.

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Ephesians 2
[sup]4[/sup] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, [sup]5[/sup] even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), [sup]6[/sup] and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [sup]7[/sup] that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [sup]8[/sup] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9[/sup] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [sup]10[/sup] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

No other works or dead's.

OK.....let's make this simple. Please direct me to the Book, Chapter and Verse in God's holy word where it states that the ONLY thing a person needs for salvation is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST!

Don't get me wrong.....I am NOT saying faith is not needed. But what God's word NEVER says is that faith is the ONLY thing that is needed for salvation.

Let's look at some that have FAITH in Christ but will NOT have salvation....

Jam.2
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Now do you think these evil angels have faith in Christ? Do they not know who He is? Do they not know what He will do to them when He returns? Are they not aware of their end?

Of course they believe AND have FAITH in who Christ is AND what He will do to them!

James tells us they have faith, but are they covered under the blood of Christ? NO!

Now let's read what else James had to say about having faith......


[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Now James says it takes MORE than faith for a man to be justified!

So again I ask you, although Rom. is about having faith, is faith ALL that is needed for salvation?

Paul said the following.....

Rom.3
[20] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

And this is so very true! Man is NOT justified, in other words, have his sins forgiven, through the deeds of the law.

The problem most have is knowing WHAT law it is that Paul is talking about.

What LAW of God removed SIN, or made man guiltless, but still could not make the people perfect?


There is a list of things needed for salvation. We have already read some of them.....


[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So we must call on the name of the Lord for salvation. But how does one get to that point? Paul tells us....

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Working backwards here First we needed a preacher to give the true word of God! Then you need to believe in the word that was given. Then you need to call on the name of Jesus. But what about the preacher? Let's read....

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

So it can't be just ANY preacher, but one sent by God.

Already God's word tells us it takes more that just belief and faith.

Now if you say or believe otherwise, prove it as the scriptures says.....

2 Tim.4 ... make full proof of thy ministry.


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