1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by n2thelight, Nov 10, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,110
    Likes Received:
    6,045
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    [SIZE=14pt](Deuteronomy 32:4) “H[/SIZE]e is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgement: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”
     
  2. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    506
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 - in these verses, God is also called "rock." Hence, from these verses, non-Catholics often argue that God, and not Peter, is the rock that Jesus is referring to in Matt. 16:18. This argument not only ignores the plain meaning of the applicable texts, but also assumes words used in Scripture can only have one meaning. This, of course, is not true. For example:

    1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Similarly, in 1 Peter 2:25, Jesus is called the Shepherd of the flock, but in Acts 20:28, the apostles are called the shepherds of the flock. These verses show that there are multiple metaphors for the Church, and that words used by the inspired writers of Scripture can have various meanings. Catholics agree that God is the rock of the Church, but this does not mean He cannot confer this distinction upon Peter as well, to facilitate the unity He desires for the Church.
     
  3. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Really??
    What part of my post is a "twisting" of Scripture??
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Uhhh, boy - talk about your bizarre websites run by “International Generals” James and Deborah Greene?? Man made doctrines run amok. Can you show me ONE verse of Scripture that refers to “Generals” in the Church?? Aggressivechristianity.net???
    This speaks VOLUMES about your freaky, unbiblical beliefs . . .

    As for their anti-Biblical issues with the term “Church” – bad translation and lack of understanding is why they‘re in the confused mess that they are in.
     
  5. Jun2u

    Jun2u Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,083
    Likes Received:
    362
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Perhaps the phrase, "twisting of Scripture" is a bit harsh. "Misunderstanding of Scripture" would be much more appropriate.
     
  6. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Fair enough.
    What part of my post was a "misunderstanding" of Scripture?
     
  7. Jun2u

    Jun2u Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,083
    Likes Received:
    362
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Any and every scriptures you and RCC had to offer in defense of your false doctrines.
     
  8. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,861
    Likes Received:
    4,125
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Oh you mean it doesnt agree with your lies, dont know about them but what they say about ecclesia is the truth, why does the truth upset you so much, havnt you read that Jesus said that many will be offended by His name, dont you know Jesus is the truth and in Him there is no lie so why are you so offended by the truth. The reason why you cant admit the truth about revelation being teh rock is that your church has none and hell has prevailed against your church since its very beginning, as i said history speaks volumes and you wont drown it out no matter how loud you shout. The christians on this and many sites can see through teh smoke screen its not working.
     
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    For example??
     
  10. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No - it's a wacky site because there is no such things as "Generals" in Christ's Church.
    That should have been the first thing that tipped you off. The fact that YOU say that the gates of Hell prevailed against Christ's Church a long time ago means that YOU consider Jesus to be a liar.

    Oh - and, as for "shouting" - I haven't shouted once on this forum.
    Look - I know you have some serious spelling and grammar issues, so let me offer you a bit of education because it appears that you missed a few days of school:
    Exclamation points are used for literary shouting (!!!). Bolding is used merely to emphasize.
     
  11. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Isa. 51:1 calls Abraham the "Rock."
    Matt. 21:42 calls Jesus the "Rock."
    Matt. 16:18 calls Peter the "Rock."

    Please explain . . .
     
  12. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,861
    Likes Received:
    4,125
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Yes "shouting", now can we let this " Christian" Forum get back to being about "Jesus" and not catholism, they have catholic forums where they can discuss catholism. lets get back to promoting Jesus who is teh truth and not religion in all its guises that keep man from God.
     
  13. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,136
    Likes Received:
    613
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Catholicism is about Jesus. It's much more about Jesus than Protestantism.
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Jesus equates His very SELF with His church (Acts 9:4-5), which is the FULLNESS of Him (Eph. 1:22-23).

    As for not being familiar with punctuation (!!!) and spelling - I suggest you take a basic English course.
     
  15. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,861
    Likes Received:
    4,125
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Yes you keep saying that but it has nothing to do with your church or protestants ot JWs or anglicans or SDA or mormans or any other religious denominatiopn

    But it has everything to "Christians" who are in "Christ". something you just dont get, yet yourself has just admitted the fallibility of your church regarding priest raping children to whom you say it has no responsibility, but it is and she is now paying the price for her hoardom.

    Division that all you cause no more no less, in fact you must be a protestant too since all you have done is protest against the truth.

    How long will you Kick against the Goads

    Any protestants here???? I dont see any but you.
     
  16. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    506
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    TRANSLATION:
    I can't refute the strong biblical defense for Peter's primacy, so I'll throw in a mindless, emotional, meaningless blanket term called "false doctrines".
     
  17. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    506
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Just to remind everyone, it wasn't a Catholic that started this thread.
     
  18. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    506
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    THE PRIMACY OF PETER

    Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.
    Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.
    Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.
    Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
    Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
    Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.
    Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.
    Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.
    Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.
    Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.
    Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.
    Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.
    Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.
    Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.
    Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.
    Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."
    Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.
    Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.
    Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
    Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.
    Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.
    Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.
    Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.
    Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.
    John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.
    John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.
    John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.
    John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.
    John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.
    John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.
    John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.
    Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.
    Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.
    Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.
    Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
    Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
    Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.
    Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.
    Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.
    Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
    Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.
    Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.
    Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.
    Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.
    Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).
    Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.
    Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.
    Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.
    Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.
    Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."
    Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.
    1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.
    1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
    Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.
    1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.
    1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.
    2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.
    2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.
    Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

    The scriptural evidence for Peter's primacy is overwhelming.
     
    tom55 likes this.
  19. tom55

    tom55 Love your neighbor as yourself

    Messages:
    1,199
    Likes Received:
    18
    Well then I guess SCRIPTURE is harsh because it uses the word twist or distort or wrest.

    Your disagreement is not with BreadOfLife...it is with the words of God.
     
  20. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,996
    Likes Received:
    2,584
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Another dishonest post from our favorite anti-Catholic . . .

    Can you point me to where I said that the Church bears no responsibility for the sex abuse scandal??
    I said that I don't have a personal responsibility to apologize for somebody else's sins. If you wanna have an intelligent discussion - at least TRY to be honest.

    As for division - you need look no farther than the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It is this movement that gave birth to all of the splintering that continues to this very day - including YOUR bizarre little cult of "Generals" and perverted doctrines over at aggressivechristianity.net . . .


    PS - "Hoardom"??
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...