Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

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tom55

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Jun2u said:
Any and every scriptures you and RCC had to offer in defense of your false doctrines.
Why does the RCC have FALSE DOCTRINES but the Protestant Churches don't have false doctrines?

Some Protestant doctrines agree with Catholic doctrines. Are those doctrines false?

Pick five different Protestant churches and you get five different doctrines. Are they all false or just one out of the five? How do you KNOW which one is right? (the one that agrees with YOUR doctrine I suspect)
 

BreadOfLife

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tom55 said:
Why does the RCC have FALSE DOCTRINES but the Protestant Churches don't have false doctrines?

Some Protestant doctrines agree with Catholic doctrines. Are those doctrines false?

Pick five different Protestant churches and you get five different doctrines. Are they all false or just one out of the five? How do you KNOW which one is right? (the one that agrees with YOUR doctrine I suspect)
Exactly.
Which one of the almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually splintering Protestant sects is correct if they ALL teach different doctrines??
 

epostle1

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Another one of those "your daddy is uglier than my daddy" discussions.
 

Mungo

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kepha31 said:
Another one of those "your daddy is uglier than my daddy" discussions.
A lot of Protestant vs Catholic discussion end like that because when they are losing the argument Protestants start throwing in diversions to deflect the topic.
 

justaname

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TO ALL:

This subject has run it's course and is due to being locked. Please make any closing arguments based on the topic refraining from remarks directed towards individuals or religious affiliations.
 

Jun2u

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tom55 said:
Why does the RCC have FALSE DOCTRINES but the Protestant Churches don't have false doctrines?

Some Protestant doctrines agree with Catholic doctrines. Are those doctrines false?

Pick five different Protestant churches and you get five different doctrines. Are they all false or just one out of the five? How do you KNOW which one is right? (the one that agrees with YOUR doctrine I suspect)
If you’ve read all of my posts on this thread you will NOT find that I have pitted the Protestant doctrines against the RCC doctrines! On the get go, what I have tried to convey throughout this OP is why the Catholic church and it’s members know not how to read and understand Scriptures. I mean how can the RCC not “see” where the Bible definitely declares particularly in Psalms 18:31 that the “Rock” is God and there is none other? How plainer can this verse get? I believe this is so because natural man cannot receive the things of God for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned (1 Co 2:14).

In the past, Catholics were not allowed to have Bibles only catechisms, therefore they learned their doctrines taught by their church clergies. The catholic bible is circumscribed by the Bible plus the apocryphal books, plus the infallibility of the pope (which is a sacrilege), the sayings of Fatima and Joan of Ark, and others which are all contradictions against Revelation 22:18-19, this makes your church have a wider authority then that of the Bible alone and its’ entirety is the word of God. The sixty-six books of the Bible is one cohesive whole! If anyone adds or take away from this Bible it is no more the true word of God.

FYI, there is no “perfect” church here on earth as per the parable of the Wheat and Tares. If you do not believe it then just read the examples set in Revelation 2 and 3.

It depends. When any doctrine disagrees with Scriptures only then is it false.

I KNOW I am right because the Holy Spirit speaks with my spirit. We can discern another’s spirit whether he be of God or not.

Justaname, these types of discussions should never have an ending because those who posted on this thread which believe in another gospel than that of the Bible alone speaks for millions of people. Who to witness to these lost souls but the children of God?

I also am aware that Jesus told the 70 disciples:

Mt 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mr 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Lu 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

To God Be The Glory
 

shnarkle

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A lot of Protestant vs Catholic discussion end like that because when they are losing the argument Protestants start throwing in diversions to deflect the topic.
I brought this dead topic up, and asked for one reply to my question and got nothing but walls of textual deflection; not one single response dealing with my one simple little question.
 

Mungo

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Jun2u said:
In the past, Catholics were not allowed to have Bibles only catechisms, therefore they learned their doctrines taught by their church clergies. The catholic bible is circumscribed by the Bible plus the apocryphal books, plus the infallibility of the pope (which is a sacrilege), the sayings of Fatima and Joan of Ark, and others which are all contradictions against Revelation 22:18-19, this makes your church have a wider authority then that of the Bible alone and its’ entirety is the word of God. The sixty-six books of the Bible is one cohesive whole! If anyone adds or take away from this Bible it is no more the true word of God.
Typical bunch of Protestant lies.
 

Mungo

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Jun2u said:
When any doctrine disagrees with Scriptures only then is it false.
I agree, and there is no Catholic doctrine (properly understood) that disagrees with Scripture (properly interpreted).
 

Born_Again

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kepha31 said:
Just to remind everyone, it wasn't a Catholic that started this thread.
And the person who started it now has a retired account..... As justaname said, make closing remarks and be done before the thread is locked.
 

mjrhealth

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Only one, there is truth and lies, Jesus is teh truth and in Him there is no lie.

How do you explain the light to one who walks in darkness???

Christians follow Christ, He is our Rock, sure and sound foundation.
 

BreadOfLife

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mjrhealth said:
Only one, there is truth and lies, Jesus is teh truth and in Him there is no lie.

How do you explain the light to one who walks in darkness???

Christians follow Christ, He is our Rock, sure and sound foundation.
Yup - and so far you have been completely impotent at exegeting Matt. 16:18-19.

You have also failed to answer the question:
Which one of your almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually splintering Protestant sects is correct if they ALL teach different doctrines??

Is it "aggressivechristianity.net"??
 

Jun2u

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Mungo said:
Typical bunch of Protestant lies.
Is this how you refute those who say your church have a wider authority than that of the Bible by making such remarks as above?

I would like to let you in on a secret. I was baptized a Catholic as a baby. I was an altar-boy. I was never given a Bible to read but the catechism until God in His mercy took me out and put me into the kingdom of Christ when I was in my teens, and I have been His servant ever since.

This is how I know about the false doctrines of the supposedly infallibility of the pope; the sayings of Fatima and Joan of Ark; and the pope and the priests as vicar of Christ, and the wine and wafer representing the literal blood and body of Christ.


WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE! Look at what’s happening around you and around the world.. Your church is in turmoil. For years your priests have been accused of immoral and indecent acts performed on minors and recently your leader Pope Benedick abdicated the papacy for the same reasons. Is this the sign of the great CHURCH you love and have been boasting about?


I’m sorry I just can’t tolerate people or a church that thinks they have a perfect church when in reality, they ae lost. They have no idea of the consequences of the ominous warning of Re 22:18-19.

Now tell me who are these bunch of Protestants that lies. Who is telling the truth?


To God Be The Glory
 

mjrhealth

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Which one of your almost 50,000 disjointed and perpetually splintering Protestant sects is correct if they ALL teach
I dont know why you are asking me, your church was teh first of teh great apostatsy, all these "protestants" are you brothers and sisters children spawend from your church, and I am sure this wil close this forum

Rev_17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

As i have said before, Mother rmust be so proud .
 

Mungo

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Jun2u said:
Is this how you refute those who say your church have a wider authority than that of the Bible by making such remarks as above?

I would like to let you in on a secret. I was baptized a Catholic as a baby. I was an altar-boy. I was never given a Bible to read but the catechism until God in His mercy took me out and put me into the kingdom of Christ when I was in my teens, and I have been His servant ever since.

This is how I know about the false doctrines of the supposedly infallibility of the pope; the sayings of Fatima and Joan of Ark; and the pope and the priests as vicar of Christ, and the wine and wafer representing the literal blood and body of Christ.


WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE! Look at what’s happening around you and around the world.. Your church is in turmoil. For years your priests have been accused of immoral and indecent acts performed on minors and recently your leader Pope Benedick abdicated the papacy for the same reasons. Is this the sign of the great CHURCH you love and have been boasting about?


I’m sorry I just can’t tolerate people or a church that thinks they have a perfect church when in reality, they ae lost. They have no idea of the consequences of the ominous warning of Re 22:18-19.

Now tell me who are these bunch of Protestants that lies. Who is telling the truth?


To God Be The Glory

Oh yes,

Another ex-altar boy who thinks he is an expert on all things Catholic!! It means nothing. It certainly doesn't mean you understand Catholic teaching.

I was brought up a Catholic. At the Catholic school I went to (pre-Vatican II mind you) I was obliged to take a Bible into school - and we read it aloud in lessons.

When you went to Mass did you not hear the Bible read? It was, and is, every time I go to Mass.

You say "In the past, Catholics were not allowed to have Bibles only catechisms". Lies! If you think it is true - provide the evidence.

You say "The catholic bible is circumscribed by the Bible plus the apocryphal books". More lies. The Catholic Bible includes the deuterocanonical books which Protestants removed from the Bible. Luither was a Catholic monk. He received the full Bible but when he broke from Rome he removed 7 books from the OT. He wanted to remove some from the NT but in the end was prevailed upon to leave them in.

You call the infallibility of the Pope a sacrilege. More lies. I doubt if you even understand what it means.

As to "the saying of Fatima and Joan of Ark" they have no relevance to the authority of the Bible, the Pope or Rev 22:18-19.

Now you claim Pope Benedict abdicated because of the sexual abuse of minors. Another lie.

You ask "Who is telling the truth?". Well it's certainly not you.
 

Mungo

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Born_Again said:
And the person who started it now has a retired account..... As justaname said, make closing remarks and be done before the thread is locked.
OK

In the first chapter of John’s gospel we read of Jesus’ first meeting with Peter. At that point Peter is called Simon. Jesus says to Peter (vs 42)
"So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas" (which means Peter)
Renaming someone is always significant in the Bible. Kephas (Greek Cephas) is Aramaic for Rock (a big one)

We come to the significance of this new name in Mt chapter 16:13-18

In each gospel Peter makes a profession of faith in Christ:

Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:16)

Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” (Mk 8:29)

And Peter answered, “The Christ of God.” (Lk 9:20)

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life” (Jn 6:28)

However Matthew’s gospel has many details that are not in the other accounts. These are important so I will take Matthew’s account (Mt 16:13-19)

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

But first there are three important points to note:
1. Matthew is a Jew, writing to Jews. His gospel is full of references to the Old Testament to show how Jesus fulfils prophecies. Some are explicit and some are not. But they would have been noticed by his Jewish audience

2. The theme of kingdom runs through Matthew’s gospel. Jesus is not just the Messiah but the promised Davidic king. He starts his gospel “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”

It is Matthew who records the visit of the Magi who ask Herod “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him.” (Mt 2:2)

3. A painting is not a photograph. By that I meant is photograph is a literal record of something. A painting is an interpretation with the elements in the picture selected and composed to give more information than the bare picture. In the same way the writers of scripture were not just journalists recording an event but they selected the elements they present to give more information than was on the surface. We have to look below that surface and consider each verse carefully.

With those points in mind let us go through this passage.

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
Caesarea Philippi is at the far north of Israel, a long way, probably 3 days walking from Capernaum. In Matthew’s gospel this incident is the only one reported at Caesarea Philippi so this exchange seems to have been the main purpose of his visit. We’ll see why later.

Jesus starts obliquely, asking them "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
Jesus constantly refers to himself as the Son of Man, but only Matthew uses this phrase leading up to Peter’s profession of faith. Matthew is pointing it up as important. Why?

The ‘Son of Man’ recalls Daniel’s prophecy (Dan 7:13-14)
I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
And to him was given dominion and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
The Son of Man is the promised future Davidic king

This passage in Daniel comes in the middle of Daniels vision of the four beasts and their explanation. Daniel is particularly concerned with the fourth beast “terrible and dreadful and exceedingly strong; and it had great iron teeth”. This fourth beast is Rome.

14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." The apostles give various answers to his question.

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" A direct question to them. Only one person answers him.

16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter who replies and defines who Jesus is, a definition we still use today.

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Jesus commends Peter for his answer and blesses him. Note that Peter is the only one to reply and as a direct revelation from the Father.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church,…..
Now Jesus continues to address Peter and in return defines who Peter is. He is Rock, and furthermore the rock on which Jesus will build his Church.

Now we come back to the point about Caesarea Philippi. In that place where there is a massive cliff face, at the base of which were various temples to pagan gods. One of these was erected by Herod the Great to the Emperor of Rome, Augustus Caesar.

Jesus is contrasting these temples, built on rock, to the Church he will build on Peter the Rock.


Early Christian Witness

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Tertullian, Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]).

Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (Cyprian The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (Optatus The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).

[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (Ambrose of Milan The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).
 

BreadOfLife

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mjrhealth said:
I dont know why you are asking me, your church was teh first of teh great apostatsy, all these "protestants" are you brothers and sisters children spawend from your church, and I am sure this wil close this forum

Rev_17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

As i have said before, Mother rmust be so proud .
And your Scriptural illiteracy is well-noted.

Virtually every credible Scripture scholar has abandoned the whole "Catholic/Whore of Babylon" thing due to Scriptural, historical and linguistic research.
t's a shame your little "Generals" over at "aggressivechristianity.net" haven't done their homework . . .

I'm not even sure I would put them in the same category as real Christians - Catholic OR Protestant.
I would more likely to put them in the "cult" category . . .
 

tom55

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Jun2u said:
If you’ve read all of my posts on this thread you will NOT find that I have pitted the Protestant doctrines against the RCC doctrines! On the get go, what I have tried to convey throughout this OP is why the Catholic church and it’s members know not how to read and understand Scriptures. I mean how can the RCC not “see” where the Bible definitely declares particularly in Psalms 18:31 that the “Rock” is God and there is none other? How plainer can this verse get? I believe this is so because natural man cannot receive the things of God for they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned (1 Co 2:14).

In the past, Catholics were not allowed to have Bibles only catechisms, therefore they learned their doctrines taught by their church clergies. The catholic bible is circumscribed by the Bible plus the apocryphal books, plus the infallibility of the pope (which is a sacrilege), the sayings of Fatima and Joan of Ark, and others which are all contradictions against Revelation 22:18-19, this makes your church have a wider authority then that of the Bible alone and its’ entirety is the word of God. The sixty-six books of the Bible is one cohesive whole! If anyone adds or take away from this Bible it is no more the true word of God.

FYI, there is no “perfect” church here on earth as per the parable of the Wheat and Tares. If you do not believe it then just read the examples set in Revelation 2 and 3.

It depends. When any doctrine disagrees with Scriptures only then is it false.

I KNOW I am right because the Holy Spirit speaks with my spirit. We can discern another’s spirit whether he be of God or not.

Justaname, these types of discussions should never have an ending because those who posted on this thread which believe in another gospel than that of the Bible alone speaks for millions of people. Who to witness to these lost souls but the children of God?

I also am aware that Jesus told the 70 disciples:

Mt 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mr 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Lu 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

To God Be The Glory
You KNOW you are right?

The Catholics KNOW they are right.

The Mormons KNOW they are right.

The Muslims KNOW they are right.

The Methodist KNOW they are right.

"When any doctrine disagrees with Scriptures" OR doctrine agrees with YOUR interpretation of Scripture?

Does scripture say Jun2u is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth or The Church is??? Hint: 1 Timothy 3:15
 

tom55

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Jun2u said:
In the past, Catholics were not allowed to have Bibles only catechisms, therefore they learned their doctrines taught by their church clergies. The catholic bible is circumscribed by the Bible plus the apocryphal books, plus the infallibility of the pope (which is a sacrilege), the sayings of Fatima and Joan of Ark, and others which are all contradictions against Revelation 22:18-19, this makes your church have a wider authority then that of the Bible alone and its’ entirety is the word of God. The sixty-six books of the Bible is one cohesive whole! If anyone adds or take away from this Bible it is no more the true word of God.


I also am aware that Jesus told the 70 disciples:

Mt 10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mr 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Lu 9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

To God Be The Glory
"In the past, Catholics were not allowed to have Bibles only catechisms, therefore they learned their doctrines taught by their church clergies."----Do you have any facts to back this statement up?

....the infallibility of the pope (which is a sacrilege)------Who speaks infallibly about scripture in your world?
 

epostle1

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I've been in forums for some 20 years and I've never come across a non-Catholic that understands infallibility, which is based on many biblical indications. Next to that is Tradition, which is more biblically explicit.
 
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