Was the death on the cross necessary?
- Thread starter Anthony D'Arienzo
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Also, the whole discussion borders on flouting the Scriptural prohibitions against adding to or subtracting from what is written in God's Word.
Deu 4:2 You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish ought from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: you shall not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Pro 30:5-6 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. (6) Add you not unto his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.
Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Good memory verse, this one:
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Some more:
Act 17:24-26 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. (25) Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. (26) And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
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Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
Well, it says it in many ways as other's have pointed out. But really, you shouldn't even need citations, because its basic common sense. If he has the foresight to create the heavens and the earth, and all living beings, these unbelievably complex biological machines, then surely he had the foreknowledge to know something could go horribly wrong. As the Bible says, nothing is perfect or immune to falling into iniquity like God, because there is only one God, before him there was no God, and neither shall there be after him.
I added scriptures for you to read.
That's it.
You reacted and disagreed with these scriptures....
Rev 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Psalm 22
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:21). And, seeing He is infinite in His nature of Deity, He does not have to continue to be in hell; for it is possible that He paid the full penalty of eternity in the lake of fire for the billions who would be saved, during the three days and three nights that He was in the heart of the earth.
You are assuming that Jesus is finite in His Deity.
This is so wrong on so many levels. The word of the Lord as we have it in the kjv is faithful.
See Isaiah 57:15.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
What? Did not.
My point is that the thread by virtue of its title "Was the death on the cross necessary?" opens up issues that border on adding or subtracting from God's Word which God has commanded not be done or face consequences.
Make up your mind! Either God must adhere to the law of retributive Justice, or the who scheme you present is a farce! There is no "infinity" clause in Scripture. If God can't be trusted to be consistent with the rules He makes, then why believe His fictions?
I have as much of an argument to say that it is a possibility that the Bible and what it says is bunk, and little Green Space Aliens are actually running everything. And I don't need the Bible anymore than you do!
No, I am not assuming that God is a fickle hypocrite.
Oh, ""it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks"...
Don't place your faith in a version; place it in Christ. For no Greek Manuscript ever said what the King James does in Acts 9:5-6!
Your hybrid, Latin Vulgate inspired Bible is not always a translation of the Greek manuscripts.
At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
@Candidus,
You have every right in this country to reject the plenary inspiration of the kjv.
But I will say this...
That my "narrow-minded" view of the kjv-superior position is something that the scripture itself points out may in fact be the way to salvation. Consider:
Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
It should be clear that there are many omissions made in modern Bibles that go contrary to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (by proxy, the word of God), till all be fulfilled.
I found another one recently: Matthew 11:30 is completely taken out of the Bible that is used at this website!
It says,
Mat 11:30, For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
I would say that that one is strong on evangelism if it would only be included in some Bibles.
You have every right in this country to reject the plenary inspiration of the kjv.
But I will say this...
That my "narrow-minded" view of the kjv-superior position is something that the scripture itself points out may in fact be the way to salvation. Consider:
Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
It should be clear that there are many omissions made in modern Bibles that go contrary to what Jesus said in Matthew 5:18.
Mat 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (by proxy, the word of God), till all be fulfilled.
I found another one recently: Matthew 11:30 is completely taken out of the Bible that is used at this website!
It says,
Mat 11:30, For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
I would say that that one is strong on evangelism if it would only be included in some Bibles.
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The passages said it happened prior to it happening in time.
So it had to happen in time.
Get what that implies?
Right, God can't lie.
If the kjv adds to God's word, those who created it would have had visible consequences, in that the plagues of the book of Revelation would be added to them.
But if other translations take away from it, the consequences for those who subscribe to those subtractions are invisible.
See Revelation 22:18-19.
Rev 22:18, For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19, And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I have seen no visible consequences for believing in the kjv over versions that do indeed subtract from the word of the Lord.
But if other translations take away from it, the consequences for those who subscribe to those subtractions are invisible.
See Revelation 22:18-19.
Rev 22:18, For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19, And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I have seen no visible consequences for believing in the kjv over versions that do indeed subtract from the word of the Lord.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Here's the thing, Truther, I've always agreed with the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world meaning it was always God's predetermined plan, as per Acts 2:23, and haven't said anything contrary to that or to you, Truther. Quite the opposite, Truther, and once again since you have missed it twice, Truther, my point is because the Bible affirms Christ's crucifixion on the Cross, and teaches that it was predetermined and prophesied, no alternative to it should be put forward, since this violates the prohibition previously stated.
Act 2:22-24 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— (23) Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; (24) whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
So, you think God can know the future but not see or experience it?
You are saying God is not able to transcend time, or, God is really not fully omniscient?
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Are you for real? Nothing I have said in my posts remotely suggests I think what you think I think. Ignoring you from henceforth.
"Here's the thing, Truther, I've always agreed with the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world meaning it was always God's predetermined plan"
There is a big difference between having a plan and seeing it happen prior to the unfolding of the plan.
Remember this. Omniscience includes knowing and seeing everything, including knowing folks and events that do not exist in time yet.
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