We are what we eat

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quietthinker

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True. But God gave Israel a set of laws, and they do not apply to the Church. Christ Himself (who is God) made that very clear.
Yes, thats right, he doesn't require us to sacrifice lambs or build a two departmented tabernacle or have priests in fancy regalia and all those laws that foreshadowed the reality of God's salvation plan.

Health Laws are for health otherwise why would they have been given? I don't think God pulled them out of a hat so to speak, arbitrarily. Does man really think he has the superior understanding on this one or is it that he prefers to make his own rules; ones that eclipse God's on the matter?.......and besides, i don't think the functioning of the human anatomy was different in the days he directed us to healthier practices than it is today.

His objective for Israel was that they shine as lights in health and government and relationship as examples to the surrounding nations of the beauty of holiness. These nations which were diseased and and spiritually separated from the light practicing every form of debauchery. Israel was to be seperate just as those who take on the name of Jesus are to be separate from the attitudes and practices of the world today as light is seperate from darkness.
 

Deborah_

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I'm not reading through an entire pdf file. Simply point out the evidence he provides for the passage in question. copy and paste it so we can all look at it now rather than asking me to waste more time.
You don't have to. He goes through Mark's Gospel from beginning to end, so you just scroll down (like I did) until you get to Mark 7:19.
 

shnarkle

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You don't have to. He goes through Mark's Gospel from beginning to end, so you just scroll down (like I did) until you get to Mark 7:19.

Even the example you provided supplies the parenthetical remark (thus he said) which appears in all of ZERO manuscripts. Christ is comparing the fact of fallen humanity's ontological state of defilement with the digestive process. The purging of food through the digestive tract has nothing to do with violating or abrogating the dietary laws. It is a conclusion that doesn't follow from the text.

If the scribes and Pharisees had come to Jesus pointing out that one of his disciples hadn't washed after laying with his wife, Jesus could have made the same point, but to then add the parenthetical remark, (thus he declared all sexual activity clean) simply doesn't follow.
 

shnarkle

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Not so. The word 'katharizon' can be translated either as 'purging' or as 'declaring clean'.

It can be translated as "retaining";"cherishing";"impacting" etc. It can be translated however one prefers. Just because it has been translated that way doesn't mean it is correct or accurate. The meaning of katharizon has nothing to do with a declaration. However, when a priest pronounces someone clean they are katharizo "clean", but if we look at the context the food that has already gone through the digestive tract is now being dumped into the sewer. What is being dumped into the sewer is not what is clean, but the body that purged it.

The subject is washing to remain clean, and Christ is pointing out that washing will not cleanse one of ontological defilement, and the body has it's own method of cleansing itself. You're simply doing what the scribe did by ignoring the context, and pretending that what goes into the toilet is somehow clean; it isn't.
 

shnarkle

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It can be translated as "retaining";"cherishing";"impacting" etc. It can be translated however one prefers. Just because it has been translated that way doesn't mean it is correct or accurate. The meaning of katharizon has nothing to do with a declaration. However, when a priest pronounces someone clean they are katharizo "clean", but if we look at the context the food that has already gone through the digestive tract is now being dumped into the sewer. What is being dumped into the sewer is not what is clean, but the body that purged it.

The subject is washing to remain clean, and Christ is pointing out that washing will not cleanse one of ontological defilement, and the body has it's own method of cleansing itself. You're simply doing what the scribe did by ignoring the context, and pretending that what goes into the toilet is somehow clean; it isn't.

The only declaration that is likely to accompany what is being purged into a toilet is the sound of breaking wind.
 

Deborah_

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It can be translated as "retaining";"cherishing";"impacting" etc. It can be translated however one prefers. Just because it has been translated that way doesn't mean it is correct or accurate. The meaning of katharizon has nothing to do with a declaration.
No word can be translated 'just as one prefers'. 'Katharizo' means 'to cleanse, purify, make clean, declare clean, or set free'. NOT 'cherish, impact, or retain'!
Look it up in any Greek dictionary.
καθαρίζω | billmounce.com
 

shnarkle

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No word can be translated 'just as one prefers'. 'Katharizo' means 'to cleanse, purify, make clean, declare clean, or set free'. NOT 'cherish, impact, or retain'!
Look it up in any Greek dictionary.
καθαρίζω | billmounce.com

I"m simply pointing out that you're not even addressing what I posted which is the fact that the MANUSCRIPTS do NOT contain any declarations. It is only in the TRANSLATIONS which were not written by Mark. The fact is that they ORIGINATE in the MARGINS of the texts themselves. They are the product of scribes who don't know what they're talking about in the first place.

I have proven this to be the case simply by looking at the context itself. Again, declaring feces to be clean is nothing less that completely asinine. Look at the subject brought to Jesus. It isn't about food at all. It isn't about them eating unclean animals. It's about the fact that they're not going through a traditional ritual washing which Jesus points out cannot cleanse anyone from defilement. The body(not to be confused with the food eaten) cleanses itself through elimination, and what is eliminated is NOT CLEAN.

Look at the context. Food clearly is not being declared clean as it is eliminated.

Food enters " into the belly, and goeth out into the draught,"

The draught is a euphemism for the toilet. The Greek is far more graphic, and no one in their right mind would ever equate what enters the toilet as cleansed and suitable for consuming.

Jesus is equating what comes out of a man's heart with what comes out of their alimentary canal, which defiles them. it is not clean. It is pure filth.

it is no coincidence that the Hebrew word for those animals that are not suitable for food is "tame" which means "filth, pollution". It makes no sense for Christ to conclude that the traditions that nullify God's commandments are perfectly acceptable when he institutes them with declarations that feces is now acceptable to be consumed as food.

Even more ridiculous is to claim that the ceremonial law which includes declarations of cleanliness is now done away with by a ceremonial declaration itself; one that doesn't do away with anything but supposedly declares feces to be clean.
 

Deborah_

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I"m simply pointing out that you're not even addressing what I posted which is the fact that the MANUSCRIPTS do NOT contain any declarations. It is only in the TRANSLATIONS which were not written by Mark. The fact is that they ORIGINATE in the MARGINS of the texts themselves. They are the product of scribes who don't know what they're talking about in the first place.

I have proven this to be the case simply by looking at the context itself. Again, declaring feces to be clean is nothing less that completely asinine. Look at the subject brought to Jesus. It isn't about food at all. It isn't about them eating unclean animals. It's about the fact that they're not going through a traditional ritual washing which Jesus points out cannot cleanse anyone from defilement. The body(not to be confused with the food eaten) cleanses itself through elimination, and what is eliminated is NOT CLEAN.

Look at the context. Food clearly is not being declared clean as it is eliminated.

Food enters " into the belly, and goeth out into the draught,"

The draught is a euphemism for the toilet. The Greek is far more graphic, and no one in their right mind would ever equate what enters the toilet as cleansed and suitable for consuming.

Jesus is equating what comes out of a man's heart with what comes out of their alimentary canal, which defiles them. it is not clean. It is pure filth.

it is no coincidence that the Hebrew word for those animals that are not suitable for food is "tame" which means "filth, pollution". It makes no sense for Christ to conclude that the traditions that nullify God's commandments are perfectly acceptable when he institutes them with declarations that feces is now acceptable to be consumed as food.

Even more ridiculous is to claim that the ceremonial law which includes declarations of cleanliness is now done away with by a ceremonial declaration itself; one that doesn't do away with anything but supposedly declares feces to be clean.

Where do you get the idea that it's the faeces that are 'purged' or 'declared clean'? (I agree with you - that would be asinine) The Greek text says (literally) "katharizon all the foods". Not what comes out, but what goes in. Hence the KJV translates it as "purging all meats", but "declaring all foods clean" translates exactly the same words - nothing has been added, in the margin or anywhere else.
 

shnarkle

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Where do you get the idea that it's the faeces that are 'purged' or 'declared clean'? (I agree with you - that would be asinine) The Greek text says (literally) "katharizon all the foods". Not what comes out, but what goes in. Hence the KJV translates it as "purging all meats", but "declaring all foods clean" translates exactly the same words - nothing has been added, in the margin or anywhere else.

Here's the text itself:


This word "draught" is the Greek "aphredon" which means
a place where the human waste discharges are dumped
a privy, sink, toilet
from ἄφεδρος, the same Macedonian word which in Leviticus 12:5; Leviticus 15:19ff answers to the Hebrew נִדָּה sordes menstruorum.

sordes: : the crusts that collect on the teeth and lips in debilitating diseases with protracted low fever

menstruorum: a solvent medium.[Mediev. L. menstrual fluid, thought to possess certain solvent properties,
n. pl. men·struums or men·strua (-stro͞o-ə)
A solvent, especially one used in extracting compounds from the tissues of organisms.



It is what is purged from the body that ends up in the draught. Again, you're quite simply confused to attribute any declaration of cleansing to what ends up in the toilet. The purging or declaration of purging is the direct result of it being purged into the toilet. It is the body that is clean, not what ends up in the toilet. Purging waste into a toilet does not make it clean to eat. This is a blatant non sequitur.
 

Deborah_

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you're quite simply confused to attribute any declaration of cleansing to what ends up in the toilet.
I don't. It applies to the food, not to the waste.

(Watch that you're not being misled by the modern English meaning of 'purge'. It doesn't have that connotation in Greek)
 
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shnarkle

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I don't. It applies to the food, not to the waste.

I supplied you with the text itself for proof. It can't apply to the food when the food is nowhere any part of the subject in the first place. The whole subject matter is ritual cleansing leading to defilement. Nowhere are the Pharisees or Christ referring to defilement of the food. It is the body that is defiled. This is explicitly what Christ is referring to in his teaching. it is what comes out of a man that defiles the man, not what is defiling. He even supplies you with a list of what defiles a man. Do you see food anywhere in that list? smh.

(Watch that you're not being misled by the modern English meaning of 'purge'. It doesn't have that connotation in Greek)

A distinction with no effective difference, and beside the point. I supplied the definition from the Greek. Here it is again for your edification:

katharizō
to make clean, cleanse

  1. from physical stains and dirt
    1. utensils, food

    2. a leper, to cleanse by curing

    3. to remove by cleansing
  2. in a moral sense
    1. to free from defilement of sin and from faults

    2. to purify from wickedness

    3. to free from guilt of sin, to purify

    4. to consecrate by cleansing or purifying

    5. to consecrate, dedicate.
From katharos: clean, pure

  1. physically
    1. purified by fire

    2. in a similitude, like a vine cleansed by pruning and so fitted to bear fruit
  2. in a levitical sense
    1. clean, the use of which is not forbidden, imparts no uncleanness
  3. ethically
    1. free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt

    2. free from every admixture of what is false, sincere genuine

    3. blameless, innocent

    4. unstained with the guilt of anything
Nowhere do the elders suggest that Christ's disciples didn't wash their food. They explicitly refer to ritual washing of their hands which in turn was thought to cause defilement to themselves, not what they were eating. Christ them points out where defilement ORIGINATES, which is in one's heart. This is where defilement comes from, not what one is eating.

Christ explicitly points to the folly of traditions which nullify God's commandments, and what do you do, and the rest of Christendom proceed to do? Exactly what he just condemned. You effectively conclude that Christ has turned around and done the exact same thing he just condemned the elders of doing themselves.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that rotten food is unclean food. You are incapable of even following your own doctrine which necessarily concludes that rotten food is now fit or acceptable for eating. Good luck with that.
 

Deborah_

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I supplied you with the text itself for proof. It can't apply to the food when the food is nowhere any part of the subject in the first place.

Sorry - it's the text itself that states "cleansing all foods". 'Foods' is the object of the verb; it can't possibly apply to anything else!

Again, you're ignoring the fact that rotten food is unclean food. You are incapable of even following your own doctrine which necessarily concludes that rotten food is now fit or acceptable for eating. Good luck with that.
Good grief - do you really believe that ceremonial 'uncleanness' is the only reason for not eating something?
1) It's not "my" doctrine - it's been the practice of the Gentile Church since the first century.
2) Nobody says that everything is necessarily acceptable (there are all kinds of public health, cultural and other reasons for not eating things) - only that there is no longer any religious reason not to eat anything.
3) Christ is God - He can nullify any commandment He likes. He went round touching lepers, menstruating women and dead bodies. He makes all things (and people) 'clean'.
 
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Nancy

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I am starving
tenor.gif
 
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shnarkle

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Sorry - it's the text itself that states "cleansing all foods". 'Foods' is the object of the verb; it can't possibly apply to anything else!

And yet, look WHEN this "cleansing" takes place!!! It's as it is going into "the draught", i.e. the sewer! Ooh boy, doesn't that just look yummy? No thanks, I'll pass, but don't let me stop you from digging in to such a bountiful supply of recently cleansed "food"

Good grief - do you really believe that ceremonial 'uncleanness' is the only reason for not eating something?

No one is claiming it's the only reason. There are only so many ways food becomes unacceptable for consumption. Torturing an animal to death, e.g. slitting its throat with a dull knife, etc., food rotting, etc. You can't seriously be thinking that "all" doesn't actually mean all, now do you?

1) It's not "my" doctrine - it's been the practice of the Gentile Church since the first century.

Nah, that's just what you believe. They were Jews and the elders even told them to refrain from non kosher slaughtering, blood, etc. That's all right from the dietary laws. See Acts 15:21 for more information.

2) Nobody says that everything is necessarily acceptable (there are all kinds of public health, cultural and other reasons for not eating things) - only that there is no longer any religious reason not to eat anything.

Uh, no. The digestive system doesn't change religious reasons for rejecting unclean food. Again, "all" means "all".

3) Christ is God - He can nullify any commandment He likes. He went round touching lepers, menstruating women and dead bodies. He makes all things (and people) 'clean'.

Yep, and while we may agree that Christ is God, you're quite simply not so you don't get to go around making filth into something acceptable to eat. You're not healing lepers or anyone else of their physical maladies. But don't let me interrupt or prevent you from eating dead people if you think that's what God is telling you to do. Incidentally, there is only one law that prohibits cannibalism, and that's the dietary law that prohibits eating anything that has died on its own; the dietary laws you seem to think are no longer valid.

What you're professing is that God is capricious. There really is nothing wrong, and never was anything wrong with eating pork, shellfish, etc. It's just an arbitrary law like all of God's laws. Therefore any law that God can nullify might as well be nullified. We really don't need to wait for God to nullify a law if there's nothing inherently wrong with violating it anyways, right?

You have taken the first horn of Euthyphro's dilemma which states that something is good because God says it's good rather than God saying something is good because it actually is good. You have a capricious tyrant for a god.

Someone comes to Christ pointing out that his disciples aren't following the traditions of the elders so Jesus eliminates the dietary laws. Yeah, that's a coherent storyline.
 
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Deborah_

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And yet, look WHEN this "cleansing" takes place!!! It's as it is going into "the draught", i.e. the sewer! Ooh boy, doesn't that just look yummy? No thanks, I'll pass, but don't let me stop you from digging in to such a bountiful supply of recently cleansed "food"
Nothing gets cleansed by being passed through the digestive system, so surely it should be obvious that this isn't what Jesus meant?
'Foods' is the object of the verb 'cleanse'. The subject isn't made explicit, but is masculine singular. So it can't be the process of digestion previously being talked about (grammatically, that would be neuter); it must be Jesus Himself. Hence the translation in modern versions: "Jesus declared all foods clean." The Greek really can't mean anything else.

No one is claiming it's the only reason. There are only so many ways food becomes unacceptable for consumption. Torturing an animal to death, e.g. slitting its throat with a dull knife, etc., food rotting, etc. You can't seriously be thinking that "all" doesn't actually mean all, now do you?
You seemed to be assuming that it was the only reason.

Nah, that's just what you believe. They were Jews and the elders even told them to refrain from non kosher slaughtering, blood, etc. That's all right from the dietary laws. See Acts 15:21 for more information.
The Gentile church "were Jews"? That statement is utter nonsense!

Incidentally, there is only one law that prohibits cannibalism, and that's the dietary law that prohibits eating anything that has died on its own; the dietary laws you seem to think are no longer valid.
So cannibalism would be OK if you slaughtered the victim yourself (so that he/she didn't die on their own)? Fortunately cannibalism is prohibited by the secular laws of most countries, including mine.

What you're professing is that God is capricious. There really is nothing wrong, and never was anything wrong with eating pork, shellfish, etc. It's just an arbitrary law like all of God's laws. Therefore any law that God can nullify might as well be nullified. We really don't need to wait for God to nullify a law if there's nothing inherently wrong with violating it anyways, right?
That isn't what I said, as you well know. You are exaggerating.
Refer to Acts 10:15. We can't nullify God's laws on our whim, but if God has declared the previously unclean 'clean', then who are we to argue with Him?
 

shnarkle

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Nothing gets cleansed by being passed through the digestive system, so surely it should be obvious that this isn't what Jesus meant?

Here's the text in its entirety. Pray tell us all what other conclusion can one come to?


What is entering into him? Food right? These are Jews. None of them identify anything unclean as food so there's no reason to assume otherwise.


The food is going into the belly and then into the toilet purging or cleansing all food. One can read it as the food being purged from the body or the body being cleansed of what goes into the toilet. Does that make sense? Either way, there is nothing in this text that indicates a pronouncement abolishing the dietary laws.
'Foods' is the object of the verb 'cleanse'. The subject isn't made explicit, but is masculine singular. So it can't be the process of digestion previously being talked about (grammatically, that would be neuter);

Nope. The process (i.e. "katharizon" Nominative MASCULINE SINGULAR) as well as the toilet(i.e."aphedrona" accusative MASCULINE SINGULAR) are both masculine singular. FAIL. Care to try again?

You seemed to be assuming that it was the only reason.

The digestive process is the only one presented. Food doesn't go into one's heart which is where defilement ORIGINATES. Instead it does through the digestive process, and exits into the sewer. This is explicitly stated by the author. The digestive process does not declare anything more than it ever did in the past.

The Gentile church "were Jews"? That statement is utter nonsense!

I quite agree. You're presenting a Strawman argument. The church that Mark is referring to was most definitely Jewish as was Matthew's, and John's as well. Even Luke's account is of a more cosmopolitan Jewish sect of Judaism. People tend to conflate the Greek texts with the authors assuming that just because it was written in Greek, the people must have been Gentile. There is no doubt that gentiles were being brought into the church, but this doesn't mean that the church was composed of just Gentiles or that the church was then disregarding God's commandments to accommodate gentiles. This is just pure conjecture on your part.


So cannibalism would be OK if you slaughtered the victim yourself (so that he/she didn't die on their own)?

No, cannibalism is automatically acceptable because Christians no longer observe kosher slaughter. Kosher slaughter requires that the animal you eat be slaughtered quickly with a razor sharp knife. It also forbids eating anything that has died on its own. In other words if one discovers an animal that has just died, it cannot be eaten. Christianity has abolished the dietary laws so there is nothing preventing you from eating an animal that just drops dead. This is not an uncommon occurrence at slaughterhouses. Some slaughterhouses have signs notifying those bringing animals into the plant that they do not accept "downed animals", but there are plenty of slaughterhouses that don't have that requirement which is why observant Jews never eat anything that isn't kosher.

There is nothing in Christian doctrine that prohibits one from eating human flesh as long as the flesh isn't torn while it is slaughtered, and the blood can be drained out.

Fortunately cannibalism is prohibited by the secular laws of most countries, including mine.

Yep, but then that's beside the point I made which was in reference to actual cannibals who are being introduced to Christianity.

That isn't what I said, as you well know. You are exaggerating.

it's exactly what you said.

Refer to Acts 10:15.

The reference in Acts 15 is much more comprehensive which is why I suggested it. Here's what it says:

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Trouble them? Trouble them with an exhaustive laundry list of do's and don'ts? Why not just address the most egregious problems? Does that make sense? Of course it does, and the reason why they don't need to regurgitate the entire Mosaic law to them is because they're already going into the synagogues learning God's word. This is the reason Luke provides:

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Did you catch how he's pointing out that the Mosaic law is being preached in the synagogues every sabbath day?

We can't nullify God's laws on our whim,

And yet this is precisely what you're arguing for. You're explicitly pointing out that God's laws are arbitrary. There is nothing inherently wrong with eating what God refers to as "filth; pollution". God even points out that to eat what he has prohibited is "an abomination". God places those who go beyond the boundaries he has set as "detestable". He places them on the same level as those who engage in sodomy.

but if God has declared the previously unclean 'clean', then who are we to argue with Him?

if he has declared it, I certainly wouldn't argue or deny the point. The fact is that there is nothing in your argument to support such a claim. You're simply Begging the Question.
 

Deborah_

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None of them identify anything unclean as food
You keep repeating this assertion, but haven't proven it.

The food is going into the belly and then into the toilet purging or cleansing all food. One can read it as the food being purged from the body or the body being cleansed of what goes into the toilet. Does that make sense?
No. It's the food being cleansed here, not the body. What we call "purging" is cleansing of the body (or the bowel, to be more specific), not the food

Nope. The process (i.e. "katharizon" Nominative MASCULINE SINGULAR) as well as the toilet(i.e."aphedrona" accusative MASCULINE SINGULAR) are both masculine singular. FAIL. Care to try again?
No. If 'katharizon' was agreeing with 'aphedrona' they would have to be in the same case, and they aren't. Care to try again?

I quite agree.
Then why did you say it?

The church that Mark is referring to was most definitely Jewish as was Matthew's, and John's as well. Even Luke's account is of a more cosmopolitan Jewish sect of Judaism. People tend to conflate the Greek texts with the authors assuming that just because it was written in Greek, the people must have been Gentile. There is no doubt that gentiles were being brought into the church, but this doesn't mean that the church was composed of just Gentiles or that the church was then disregarding God's commandments to accommodate gentiles. This is just pure conjecture on your part.
But I wasn't talking about the Jewish church (even if it still was predominantly Jewish by the mid-first century when Mark was writing). I was talking about the predominantly/entirely Gentile church that developed in the second half of the first century. That's why I specified it was the Gentile church.

There is nothing in Christian doctrine that prohibits one from eating human flesh as long as the flesh isn't torn while it is slaughtered, and the blood can be drained out.
Nothing like the fact we are made in the image of God?
 

Deborah_

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3) Christ is God - He can nullify any commandment He likes. He went round touching lepers, menstruating women and dead bodies. He makes all things (and people) 'clean'.

What you're professing is that God is capricious. There really is nothing wrong, and never was anything wrong with eating pork, shellfish, etc. It's just an arbitrary law like all of God's laws. Therefore any law that God can nullify might as well be nullified. We really don't need to wait for God to nullify a law if there's nothing inherently wrong with violating it anyways, right?

That isn't what I said, as you well know. You are exaggerating.

Please explain how Christ's nullification of one set of laws makes all God's laws arbitrary? Where have I said that it does? And how that gives us the right to tear up any law we happen not to like? The Jews certainly didn't have the right to nullify the dietary laws before Christ's coming!

Perhaps you could also explain whether you think Gentiles are now obliged to obey the entire Law of Moses. And if that's the case, why didn't Paul mention it in all his letters? It would have made his ethical instruction so much simpler...
 
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