We Know When the Tribulation Takes Place
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Amen. Israel is a nation again 1948 to the very month and year Ezekiel predicted. The "branch is tender", so within a lifetime of 75 years certainly constitutes "near".
Ezekiel's prophecy establishes it is all set in motion once Israel becomes a nation again so the "branch is tender" May 14, 1948, and within a liftetime is no later than 75 years according to Ps. 90.10 so Jesus steps down on the mount of olives no later than 2023.
"Even at the doors" is within 75 years a liftetime (Ps. 90.10).
Think how presumptuous you are to think "right at the door" would be more than a lifetime. But Jesus said you can "know" (Matt. 24.33), thus, within a lifetime. If it is not within a lifetime then there is no way you could know.
Rev. 5 is the cross then naturally the first Seal recounts the cross with a bow and arrow that looks like a cross, but the arrow has been shot, giving Satan a deadly wound. This happened nearly 2000 years ago.
But that's not what I believe. I believe the Seals are the past 20 centuries. 1/4 die. But in the Tribulation 1/3 die. Not the same period. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation and the 7th trumpet near the end of the Tribulation pours out the 7 bowls of wrath. Think of it like a lock tumbler.
15.3 Why do they sing the song of Moses as well as the song of the Lamb? It should be noted that had they worshiped the image of the beast they would have violated the law of Moses and the commandment of God. But they have not worshiped the image of the beast: therefore, they sing the song of Moses. He who commands them not to worship idols is Moses, and so they sing the song of Moses. He who gives them strength not to worship idols is the Lamb, and hence they sing the song of the Lamb. What they sing is clearly recorded in 15.3,4. It is evident that it is not the same song of Moses that was sung at the time of Exodus 15.
The first clause in the song refers to the works of God, while the second refers to the ways of God. Works are outward acts, but ways are inward principles. "Lord God" is a name which shows how God is related to man. "King of the ages" can also be translated as "King of the nations" (mg.). "Righteous" pertains to principle, whereas "true" pertains to promise.
14.3 A new song which they alone can sing. All Christians are purchased Out of the earth, but these are brought home first.
Why should the new song in 5.9 be sung two thousand years later? Has not the work of redemption already been done? Why cannot the new song be sung at once? The song these elders sing is not that of redemption since the song in 4.11 tells of the creation of God. They thus know only God’s creation; they have no personal knowledge of God’s redemption. Though they do sing a new song as mentioned in 5.9-10, this is because the Lord has redeemed "them"—not these elders, but men of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
5.9 "A new song"—Because the Lord has only newly died, therefore it is a new song.
"Every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation"—Four earthly things are mentioned here, and four is the number of the earth.
"And didst purchase unto God"—Those who are purchased by the blood are not the 24 elders, since it is recorded that they do not sing "didst purchase unto God us", but "them".
On the contrary, you are totally presumptuous overlooking this evidence. Your first mistake was to think I was talking about you in post #15 but obviously Verteran posted #15 not you. Funny.
All your rambling will not cover up your presumption or your first mistake in your post 18
When you start using scripture, clearly I will take you seriously.
Do you think it is reasonable for Jesus to return within a lifetime when Israel becomes a nation again?
Yes I do, Why? Jesus said -
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
I believe a generation is 70 years. That puts us at 2018.
You keep it in that vain,keep it down that main road, not looking to the right or to the left and carefully validate what you are trying to convey with scripture, written out and expounded upon clearly, then people will listen.
what you wrote and tagged scripture to was not valid.
as I wrote -
1 - I don't have a post # 15.
2 - Psalm 90:10 does not say a life time is 75 years. That is presumption.
3 - Gen 12:5 does not say Abraham entered the promise land at 75. He left Haran and set out for Canaan at 75.
Now we have a pattern of presumption.
Saying things that are presumptuous and giving a scripture reference that does not validate what you are saying is why people do not take you seriously.
4- because "you know the summer is near" (Matt. 24.32) when the "fig tree...branch is tender" (v.32);
nothing in this scripture validates your theory of 75 years.
5 - Ezekiel's prophecy on his side for 390 days takes us to exactly May, 1948 when Israel became a nation again;
Has nothing to do with Jesus wil return within 75 years from when Israel became a nation (by 2023 at the latest)?
6 - thus, you "know that it is near, even at the doors" (v.33).
Nothing to do with 75 years.
you said some strange things which I corrected you in the following post in post #16.
You didn't correct anything, you just exposed yourself as being extremely presumptuous, with no scriptural proof to validate your position.
Thanks, JLB
You misread verse 24 since such a "generation" is referring to a wicked generation. It does not refer to a literal generation, otherwise Jesus would have returned in the first century. The Tribulation is Feast of Trumpets for 2,520 days to Tisha B'Av Aug. 7, 2022. 2018 would shortly be before the middle of the Tribulation. The middle of the Tribulation is Feb. 25, 2019 (Rev. 9.1).
I never said you had a post #15, I was talking to and quoted Veteran.
75 is right between 70 and 80.
It wouldn't take more than a year to get to the promise land.
Amen, easily within a liftetime of 75 years.
Certainly we can count from when Israel a nation again as the branch now tender.
Within a lifetime.
All your errors have been corrected. You should repent.
Then that suggests you believe the 'tribulation' Jesus mentioned happened 2000 years ago, which would also mean you don't believe a period of great tribulation is going to happen in the near future. That's what a lot of Preterists and Historicists believe but it's not true per Scripture. Why do your brethren in Jerusalem think they can establish their own kingdom without God?
If you're going to quote my words, you need to include my statement as written that keeps the subject intact. You misquoted me by doing that cut-off below. My whole statement was: "Just because it is given ALONG WITH the event of Jesus opening up the Seals does NOT mean that future Millennium look is happening right then with His opening up the Seals which are in prep for tribulation timing!"
Your Quote Attributed To Me:
That's actually the SECOND time on this Forum I've caught someone trying to chop up my words when quoting me to try and make my statement read completely... different than what I said! Since you had to chop off so much of my original statement there's no way to think you did that by accident.
That above kind of belief is NOT a Christian belief.
Thanks for revealing yourself for who you really are, as it's clear what you're about and why you've come here in disguise.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
A good God does not try to trick people out of their salvation! He wants to be in relationship with us. This is not 'Let's Make a Deal'.
Why would God try to weed out people through a tribulation?
Why would God try to weed out people through a tribulation?
What makes you think that? Don't you believe in once-saved-always-saved? Those born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28).
But if you are not ready to be received at the first rapture, you will pass through the time of testing. Your choice.
I believe in the tribulation of the past 20 centuries (Rev. 7.14) as well as the Tribulation at the end of this age, the final seven. All Partial Rapture Believers such as myself believe in the Tribulation from Rev. 7 to 11 with the details giving from 12 to 19. You seem to misinterpret so much. A loving God does not leave us guessing what happens during these past 2000 years but it is given in the Seals commensurate with the Church age (Rev. 2 & 3).
The Seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th Seal opens the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation.
That makes me sad to hear you are not a Christian.I believe the Seals are the past 20 centuries. 1/4 die. But in the Tribulation 1/3 die. Not the same period: different numbers. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation and the 7th trumpet near the end of the Tribulation pours out the 7 bowls of wrath. Think of it like a lock tumbler easy for the Christian to understand.
Just like Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1, Rev. 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from 7 to 11. Rev. 6 are the past 20 centuries. Rev. 5 recounts the cross. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age. Rev. 20 is the millenial kingdom. Rev. 21 is eternity future in the New City. Rev. 22 is the last warning. Pretty simple. Not so simple for you.
Yes, Jesus gave His Revelation through Apostle John almost 2000 years ago, but that didn't mean the events of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials began back then. Information aligned with the Seals is also found in the Books of the OT prophets. It's about the very end of this world with the last generation.
Every event in the 7 Seals are to occur at the very end just prior to Christ's second coming in the last generation on earth.
Oh, I'm a Christian alright. And a pretty good one too, because I listen to God in His Word through His Son Jesus Christ, and He is my Saviour. I don't listen to groups like the Pharisees and Sadduccees though, nor their Jewish traditions which corrupt God's Truth.
There's only 7 signs of the end Jesus gave, and the 21 events of the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials in Revelation are about only those same 7 signs of the end.
[quote]Just like Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1, Rev. 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from 7 to 11. Rev. 6 are the past 20 centuries. Rev. 5 recounts the cross. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age. Rev. 20 is the millenial kingdom. Rev. 21 is eternity future in the New City. Rev. 22 is the last warning. Pretty simple. Not so simple for you.
[/quote]
Hardly.
Rev.4 is a view in... Heaven John was given to see, not of the universe. Rev.5 CONTINUES that vision with Christ Who opens up the Seals. Rev.2 & 3 are 7 Messages Christ gave to 7 historical Churches in Asia, and they represent a pattern for ALL Churches, all the way up to Christ's return. All Christian Churches today will fit one or more of what those 7 in Asia Minor were doing or experiencing. Rev.20 is the Millennium, Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect. But Rev.21 & 22 have a mixture of events between that Millennium time and God's new heavens and a new earth that will occur after the Millennium and final Judgment.
And your calculus style prophecy for Christ's second coming is still mere supposition, and nothing more. You are not a prophet.
The Saints are already in Heaven because heaven is the expance above the surface of the earth The sky with all things visible in it.
The first heaven has been rolled up like a scroll behind you, the second heaven is now and the third heaven is to come. The whole rapture theory is the doctrin of satan who loves the things of man and is not mindful of the things of God.
Matthew 16
23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
I'll bet you thought satan was a fallen angel and not just any old adversary?
I never said the Trumpets or Bowls began back then. I said the Seals started with the 1st Seal being the cross as bow and arrow that looks like a cross, but the arrow has been shot giving Satan a deadly wound. Jesus wouldn't wait 2000 years to begin opening the Seals after opening the book. The Seals are open in secret in this mystery age of the Church. What occurs after the Seals are the Trumpets and what occurs after the Trumpets are the Bowls.
Are the six seals in chapter 6 already fulfilled, in the process of being fulfilled, or waiting to be fulfilled in the tribulation to come? There are two evidences to show that these are either fulfilled already or in the process of being fulfilled these past two thousand years.
(1) In 5.2 it is declared: "Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?" But by the time of 5.7 the Lamb has taken the book. Will He thereafter wait two thousand years before He opens the seven seals?
(2) Unless God in His dealing is setting aside the church, He cannot acknowledge He is now dealing with the Jews. Yes, by the time of 7.1-8 God does begin to acknowledge the Jews and to choose them as His servants. But this section in chapter 7 follows upon the sixth seal. It therefore logically indicates that the time before the sixth seal is the time of the church.
From these two evidences we may conclude that the six seals are either already fulfilled or in the process of being fulfilled.
The Seals say 1/4 die: "And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6.18). But during the Tribulation "third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths" (9.18). This shows these are two different time periods. The 1/4 die during the past 2000 years; the 1/3 die during the Tribulation.
The Seals are general in nature and opened in secret; the Trumpets are loud and specific and details. The intensity increases and the length decreaes. From 1/4 over 2000 years to 1/3 over 7 years.
Nope. For example the martyrs in the 5th Seal were from the past 20 centuries, but they are told to wait a little longer for the rest of their martyred brethren to come in from the Tribulation period.
Lots of people say they are Christians. I take that with a grain of salt because more people are unsaved who call themselves Christians than those who say they are saved who actually are Christians.
The 6 Seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th Seal opens up the 7 Trumpets of the Tribulation, and the 7th Trumpet pours out the 7 Bowls of wrrath.
Rev. 4 is a picture of the universe from heaven. For example, the 24 elders are 24 archangels, the eldest elders of the universe. The four living creatures are not symbolic but are rather the representatives of the created things. Rev. 4.6 Why is "a sea of glass like unto crystal" before the throne? Because the rainbow which surrounds the throne is a memorial to God’s promise at the time of Noah that the earth will no more be destroyed by water (Gen. 9.15). The judgment by water passed away; judgment is no longer executed by means of the sea. According to Revelation 15 the glassy sea seems to be "mingled with fire" (v.2). In the new heaven and the new earth there is no more sea. In eternity there will be only the lake of fire—a lake, yes, but one of fire. Robert Govett has observed that "the sea becomes the lake of fire. We are permitted to see it in its intermediate state in chapter 15, when it is a sea of glass mingled with fire." What he has suggested appears reasonable.
Defintely Revelation 4 is a picture of heaven viewing all of creation. And what a glorious picture that is.
Revelation 5 recounts the cross bythe Lion of Judah. The 24 archangels give glory to God for the redemption of those who are saved. Jesus opens the book only He can.
The 7 church periods are interesting because the first 3 church periods are over (no more Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum), but the last four starting with the Roman Thyatira church still remain with us today. We are in the last church period today called Laodicean which means "differing opionions" and boy, are there lots of those. Only Philadeliphia is the overcomer church so it is told simply to keep what it has got.
Rev. 7 is the first rapture according to readiness. Rev. 8 to 11 give the 7 Trumptes so these are the major points of the Tribulation. Rev. 12 to 19 give the details. Notice how similar Rev. 12 is to Rev. 7 as per the rapture of the man child and the mention of the Jews in Rev. 7 who also flee in Rev. 12. Many more similarities exist.
He returns not with the elect but the overcomers out of the elect. Non-overcomers believers go to outer darkness outside the light of reward of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years. It is like being in a forest at night, not allowed to enter the beautifully lit cabin until the time for them to come out comes so they all enter the New City. Or it is light painting a house, but you are sloppy with the paint and get it all over yourself. You use gasoline to take the paint off your skin. It stings. This is like outer darkness, before you can enter the shower and attend the banquet feast that the 5 wise virgins get. So be warned. Just because someone is born-again doesn't mean they get first rapture or return to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26).
There is nothing in Rev. 21 or 22 having to do with the millennial kingdom. Rev. 21 is entirely the New City in the New Earth, and Rev. 22 is entirely the Last Warning. The Judgment Seat is in Revelation 20 for believers, and Great White Throne in Rev. 21 for unbelievers.
There is no calculus in the prophecy given. There is no assumptions given. We know Rev. 6.12 occurs before the Tribulation starts so the Tribulation can't start before 2015. We also know "right at the door" and "very near" is not more than a lifetime which is 75 years (Ps. 90.10) so the Trib ends no later than 2023. We know the Trib starts on Feast of Trumpets because every 7 years the 2,520th day is Tisha B'Av or the 2,550th day is Day of Atonement. Various other specific reasons show us why the 2015 to 2022 period must be the Tribulation rather than 2016 to 2023.
Nobody is in heaven yet as we are raptured and resurrected together 1 Thess. 4.14-18 says. Actually not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet (Acts 2.34).
The first heaven is earth and this entire universe. 2nd heaven is that place Satan fell from 3rd heaven too. The 3rd heaven has been existing this entire time, it is where the angels and God are.
Nobody can get to 3rd heaven except by rapture. To meet the Lord in the air is by rapture. To reject "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4.17) is not Christian.
The interesting question is why do false Christians reject the rapture? Faithlessness. Just as Jesus resurrected and raptured so will we be. Only two people besides Jesus have been raptured who will be the Two Witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, the only two people who have never died and were raptured alive.
Get behind me Satan.
Satan use to be Lucifer the most beautiful angel. He was, in fact, one of the 24 archangels (24 elders in Rev. 4). He lost his job when he rebelled and brought a 1/3 of the angels with him down to 2nd heaven. Who then was to replace him? Michael was promoted to archangel who is the angel for the Jews. 24 archangels remain who adminster over 1st, 2nd and 3rd heaven.
Praise the Lord!
Nope. The beginning Seal first mentioned in Rev.6 is only assumed to be the 1st Seal. It's not about Christ, it's about a fake trying to mimic Christ. If that were Christ it wouldn't be the 1st Seal. Those Seals align with the 7 signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse. And the Matt.24:23-26 verses are about the coming of a 'pseudochristos', a pseudo-Christ. Since those Rev.6 Seals parallel the 7 signs, then where's the Seal that relates directly to that coming pseudo-Christ which Jesus warned us of? It's that one on the white horse conquering wearing a false crown and with a simple bow, for Christ instead comes on a white horse wearing many... crowns, and He has a sharp sword out of His mouth that cuts both ways, as per Rev.19.
You mean you don't understand how there's timeline gaps in a lot of prophecies of God's Word? What did my Lord Jesus show you in Luke 4 that you missed from His quoting in Isaiah 61? Since Christ came a first time to this earth, then why would He allow such a huge time gap for His second coming, which is still... yet future to us even? See, your kind of two thousand years logic fails miserably.
That truly is... illogical. I'll only agree that they're in the process right now, but I won't say at what point. But I will say their events did not begin back 2000 years ago. They were only given... by Christ through John about 2000 years ago (94 A.D. during the time of emporer Domitian).
And you don't have a clue who those of Rev.7 represent. As for who God acknowledges, you missed a lot concerning His promises to Judah all the way to the end of this world. Might want to go back and read The Old Testament Books again.
Nope. The 4th Seal says they're given power over a fourth part of "the earth"; that doesn't tell us how many people are killed. I won't go into detail of what that Seal is about with you, because of your haugtyness, but I will say look in the Book of Joel just in case you might... be sincere. Might want to look at Zechariah while you're at it.
If the Seals were such a 'secret', then why did Jesus open them for us through His Apostle John? As for the locusts in Rev.9, what is actually killed by what comes out of the mouth??? What comes out of one's mouth anyway? The Seals are information... about the 7 signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24; Mark 13). Not everything given in the Seals are in the order they actually happen. The one on the white horse in Rev.6 ought to make that obvious to anyone's brand of logic. The Trumpets represent the order of battle in Revelation. Trumpets were used by Israel for different functions, and one of them was to sound the order of battle.
It's obvious you've been studying Revelation through some religious system man's rote, instead of understanding it in relation to all of God's Word which is required. The Rev.6 Seals parallel the 7 signs Jesus gave. So what's the parallel He gave for the 5th Seal event in Matt.24 and Mark 13? That 5th Seal is about those who have yet to become... martyred for Christ, for a Testimony of Christ. When did you say they get martyred? For the great tribulation time, that's right. So how is that 5th Seal about a time like 2000 years ago? Furthermore, Christians have been martyred from the time of the Apostles' days all the way up to... now. But the 5th Seal event is for the specific time when the tribulation starts.
I take people saying that with a grain of salt too, especially on forums like this one. I try to leave room for one claiming to be a Christian brother, but when they reveal they don't care to heed God's Word, and instead seek popularity and fame with some doctrine they think is an answer all, I begin to have doubts that they are a true Christian. So far with you, I think you just have not studied enough of God's Word; and certainly should not be pushing ideas like you know when Christ's return is. Those are false prophets who try to do that.
The Big Lie theory doesn't work on me. I believe it was Hitler that claimed he got the idea from the Jews of making continual affirmations of a falsehood and eventually, the people will believe it as truth. That statement you've repeated how many times in your several posts already? And it's still not true. The events of the 6 Seals are for the end of this world, not back 2000 years ago. Likewise with the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials, they're for the end of this world too. But those signs originate from Christ's Olivet Discourse upon the Mount of Olives, and back in the Old Testament Books of God's prophets. All He was doing was progressively revealing more detail of the very end of this world according to what He first gave the OT prophets to write down.
Rev 4:1-4
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And He That sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
(KJV)
I don't see anything... written there about the universe! The universe is of this present MATERIAL WORLD; it is not the Heavenly which John was shown. If flesh man could travel in a spacecraft to the farthest galaxy seen, it would still be made up of planets and stars and moons and such, i.e., material matter. The idea that God's Heavenly Abode is nothing more than mere sky around the earth is a Jewish misconception based on a fleshy understanding. It's obvious that God's Heavenly Abode is invisible today, and not of material matter, and not merely in the sky around the earth, otherwise astronauts would have declared seeing it when they passed through the earth's atmosphere. John's spirit was shown God's Heavenly Abode; notice John's flesh didn't have to go anywhere to see it.
Not reasonable enough, for then it would have to mean the "lake of fire" will overspread about 70% of the earth's surface, since that's how much area today's 'seas' take up!
There's that attempt at affirmation again. There's no mention there of looking down upon the earth at all. It all takes place IN HEAVEN, IN GOD'S HEAVENLY ABODE. Look at the front of a box and how many sides can your eye see? Only 3. Look at that same box in a mirror and you'll see the rest of the sides, a total of 6. God's Heavenly Abode is similar, because it's about a different dimension of existence, one that we cannot see unless, God allows us to see it, like He did with John, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.
The 'four beasts' of Rev.4 are NOT... earthly animals. They are Heavenly order beings, the same ones Ezekiel was shown (Ezek.1).
Rev.5 continues John's vision of Rev.4 with God sitting upon His Throne in HEAVEN. It is a future... look, for the OT patriarchs and Apostles represent those 24 elders. And they have yet... to receive Christ's rewards which begins with His coming. That's why they are shown clothed in white raiment wearing crowns of gold, which is for Christ's future reign. They sing a new song, which is about the timing of Rev.14 & 15 for after Christ's return.
The idea that the 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia mean 7 'Church Ages' (or periods) is a false doctrine of men's traditions. It is NOT... written in God's Word. It's heavily associated with the Pre-trib Rapture and Dispensationalist theorists from 1830's Great Britain, like John Darby.
It's very easy to know it's not about some so-called idea of Church Ages. It's because Christ gave warnings and signs within several of those 7 Messages about His second coming, including TO THE CHURCH AT SMYRNA! They're told to remain faithul even to death, and Jesus will give them a crown of life. Even the "hour of temptation" is mentioned to them referring directly to the endtime tribulation! All those 7 Messages are STILL applicable to all Christian Churches today, even all the way to the end when Christ returns. The Church Ages theory applied to them is a false doctrine designed to keep us from paying heed to ALL of those 7 Messages Christ gave as warnings for ALL Churches today!
Moreover, those 7 Churches in Asia are represented by seven golden candlesticks in HEAVEN, meaning there's a Heavenly Pattern hard-attached to them. If any one of them was no longer meant as a pattern for the endtime Churches, then it would mean the 7 candlesticks in Heaven they represent would fail. And that's another way how we can know the Church Ages theory is a false doctrine from the devil pushed upon the unsuspecting. It's the devil that wants that candlestick pattern to fall. So a believer on Christ Jesus that's smart will heed all... of those 7 Messages Jesus gave, and USE them to COMPARE with the Church they are in today! Thus Christ gave them as a 'how to know you're in the right Church' type of discerner for the endtimes. And only the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia represent His chosen elect, because they recognized Christ's enemies, the synagogue of Satan.
No it's not! Obviously you can't even read the very first verses there which define... what that Chapter is about. It's about those of Christ's servants being SEALED with His seal for the tribulation! And then at Rev.7:9 with the "great multitude", they're shown for after Christ has returned, with white apparel. Very obvious that you're interested only in YOUR AGENDA from men's traditions, which does not align with the Scriptures. That's the PRE-TRIB SECRET RAPTURE THEORY you're pushing there; it's a false doctrine of men.
The 3 Woe periods begin at the end of Rev.8 and continue through Rev.11, and those give the most detail about the tribulation period upon Christ's saints. Rev.12 has strong timeline jumps and defines the starting event of the tribulation. Rev.13 defines the final world beast kingom upon earth, and the false messiah coming to sit over it prior to Christ's coming and prior to the gathering of the saints. Rev.14 & 15 give a timeline jump to Christ's Millennium, and then back to tribulation timing. Rev.16 is tribulation timing involving the Vials poured out upon Satan's world beast kingdom and working, until the final 7th Vial, which is Christ's coming. Rev.17 & 18 define details of the beast kingdom and beast king for tribulation time, and the city of his reign. Rev.19 is Christ's coming on a white horse with His army to defeat Satan and his hosts upon the earth, ending the tribulation. The last Vial ends this present time on earth.
Rev.12 has no 'rapture' idea in it. Christ ascended to Heaven already being in His Resurrection Body. The word 'rapture' is not even written anywhere in God's Word. Our gathering to Christ Jesus is to where He is coming, and that's to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem where ascended from, ON EARTH, not away from this earth to some far away planet!
Paul defined the events of Christ gathering His saints in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15. The saints that have already died Jesus will bring WITH Him when He comes; they will be in their 'spiritual bodies' coming wtih Christ. The saints still alive on earth at His coming will be 'changed' to the "spiritual body" Paul taught. Then both groups are joined to Christ in that quick process of His return back to this earth. ALL... the overcomers in Christ Jesus are His elect.
Rev.22:14-15 describes the place of separation for the wicked will be outside... the gates of the holy city. It's on earth, as Rev.20:9 reveals also. The only... way to be placed outside with the wicked will be by having followed iniquity. Jesus considers being deceived to bow to a false one in His stead as being guilty of iniquity. It's about the spiritual harlot idea from the OT prophets. Paul covered it in 2 Cor.11, we're supposed to remain as "a chaste virgin" waiting on Christ's return, and not fall away to worship the false messiah that comes first. You will be here on earth for that temptation; we all will, unless we die from some other cause first.
Well, you just contradicted yourself, again. For the Rev.22:14-15 event of where the wicked are outside the holy city is about the "outer darkness" that manifests DURING Christ's Millennial reign of Rev.20. Per Ezekiel 40-47, there's going to be a Millennium Sanctuary established on earth for Christ's thousand years reign. Then after that period, no more temple. Per Ezek.47, the waters of the river of life and the tree of life are manifested on earth with that Millennial Sanctuary in Jerusalem, on earth. (the Pre-trib rapture preachers you listen to must have forgot to tell you about that; don't bother asking them, they don't know, as with many other things in God's Word).
Boy, are you deluded. The Rev.6:12 verse is about the opening of the 6th Seal, and contains events about the time of Christ's coming and the end of man's works off this earth. That has events that align with the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial. It's about the 7th sign Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse, which includes the time of His return AND the time of the gathering of His saints. It's what specifically ENDS the great tribulation timing. And you say it happens before... the tribulation? You couldn't be that deceived, so I'm beginning to think you're here to purposefully push a FALSE AGENDA against Christ and His Word of Truth.
Those phrases like "at the doors" and "near" do not give us a specific time. But Christ's parable of a fig tree in Matt.24 does; it gives the final generation upon this earth which will see His coming. The fig tree was set out in 1948 when Israel became a nation again for the end like God promised. So 1948 is when the final generation began.
Yet Jesus never said His coming had to occur at the end of that period, but sometime 'within' that last generation, because He said that final generation will not pass until ALL those signs He gave happen. Moreover, He said He shortened the tribulation period for the sake of His elect. He gave what that shortened time is too, but not in Matt.24. This is why your feast day assumptions will fall flat, even while you may think... you're honoring God by applying them to the time of His return.
Lucifer is a hebrew word that means son of the morning. Lucifer was the King of Babylon in scripture.
Satan is a hebrew term that only means adversary of God and nothing else.
Your entire gospel is debased and aiming you straight for the valley of slaughter.
The Lord that you are praising is not the real Lord. but a misnomer made up by your captors.
I pray that the Lord open your eyes to ask Him for His Spirit.
2 Peter 2
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
Your captors have brought you into the bondage of a false Lord and false Gospel.
Ok I got my popcorn... Now. understanding Tribulation is of no consequence to a pre-tribber. Understanding the events preceeding and during Tribulation is of great consequence for mid-tribbers and those who do not go in the rapture. The rapture being made up? Only the term for the event is made up the event itself is not. I posted several times the necessity of this event...called the rapture. In the twinkling of and eye... Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Now who thinks Jesus's return comes as a thief in the night at Amrageddon? We know when that happens... at he very end of Tribulation, (no thief action here) when the Jews accept Jesus. Christs return to bring up those sleeping? this is an event we may not and probably will not even see. For this is ressurection of the dead. A rapture for those unable to deny the mark of the beast.. in a coma. too weak.. too old... and the list goes on gives us a purpose for a rapture.. and on that comes like a thief in the night in the twinkling of an eye.
Be the watchman and continue to learn how the vents unfold and when they unfold. Do not subject others to your understanding with out first allowing them to know your imperfection. But, trying to understand? The Bible gives us a written blessing for trying to do just that!!!
Be the watchman and continue to learn how the vents unfold and when they unfold. Do not subject others to your understanding with out first allowing them to know your imperfection. But, trying to understand? The Bible gives us a written blessing for trying to do just that!!!
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Choir Loft
The tribulation has already happened. It was called the holocaust.
Prophecies of the Bible do not necessarily follow a particular timeline, especially those designated by the disciples of John Nelson Darby. Let me illustrate by stating that there are two basic types of prophecy; seasonal and marker.
The seasonal types tell us when the time is near. The reestablishment of the nation state of Israel among the family of nations is a major point. Increasing numbers of earthquakes, pollution and violence are others. These events and/or trends indicate the 2nd advent is close, but don't give anything more specific.
The marker types act like mile markers along the interstate. They don't necessarily predict anything as the seasonal type do, but they do function as as sort of navigation aid so that we may know how far we have come in God's plan.
One mistake Darby and his disciples make is to hammer these predictions into a human pattern, instead of watching the skies, as it were. God never meant for any of us to be able to predict exact times and dates of any event prior to Jesus return. Jesus said that if we were His friends he'd tell us what he was doing. That's basically what we've got here. Jesus is telling us what He is doing, but all the time He is keeping one hand behind His back.
Another mistake is the timelessness of the Bible, especially when it comes to describing heavenly events in heavenly places. We are told, for example, that with God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. In other words, there's no parallel to the passage of time that we know of. It's called eternity by many, but what does that mean exactly? The hymn Amazing Grace sings of 'being there ten thousand years'. Or is it really just ten minutes? See what I mean? The problem that springs from this examination is that human time line constructions don't always work very well. This includes the idea that the tribulation will last a specific length of time and that it will follow one event and precede another.
Here's my take.
The tribulation that the Bible speaks of was the holocaust. Why do I have that opinion? I didn't get it from John Darby, I got it from the Bible and Adolph Hitler.
All Biblical prophecy centers upon Israel and the Jew. There are secondary players in the tale to be sure, but for the most part the focus is on Israel in general and Jerusalem in particular. That being said, the tribulation was predicted to affect the Jew most of all. In the 1940's it did, and it did so at the hands of a man so fully consumed by the spirit of anti-christ that many folks of the time mistook Hitler for the incarnation of evil itself. Well, what can I say. If Adolph wasn't evil incarnate he came pretty close. Stalin was a close second or maybe first depending upon how you look at the numbers. As far as the Jew is concerned, Hitler's holocaust was the greatest tribulation they had ever known. As far as I'm concerned the discussion ends there.
There is also a curious aspect to the tension between Christianity and the Jew throughout history. Despite our savior being a Jew, we have thoroughly and completely despised his natural kin, the Jews. In centuries past, the church oppressed them and as recently as the 1950's in America, anti-semitism was in full bloom. So it does not surprise me one bit that Christians today who are otherwise good and kind folk should find themselves gleefully and gladly expecting yet ANOTHER holocaust to spring upon the Jewish race. They need to be saved, we tell one another, and the lash is the best way to do it.
Jesus doesn't think like man (thank God). Could it be at all possible that the Holy Spirit might find other gentler ways to convict Israel of His love and salvation? Can He not melt their hearts as He did ours so that they may also be saved? The Bible says it will happen. That's a prediction that doesn't seem to mesh with the violent aspect of a 2nd tribulation theory. I for one have no doubt that Our Lord still has a few gentle tricks up His sleeve.
Yes, I have a big problem with Christians STILL wishing for MORE Jewish blood to be spilled. How much is enough? When is it enough? The tribulation has already happened. If that spoils somebodys' carefully constructed time line for future events, then so be it. Wishing for another time of murder to fall upon the Jew is anti-semitic at best and evidence of demonic hatred at worst. It is certainly NOT a Christian attitude and I think that those who hope for it should be ashamed of themselves.
but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
Prophecies of the Bible do not necessarily follow a particular timeline, especially those designated by the disciples of John Nelson Darby. Let me illustrate by stating that there are two basic types of prophecy; seasonal and marker.
The seasonal types tell us when the time is near. The reestablishment of the nation state of Israel among the family of nations is a major point. Increasing numbers of earthquakes, pollution and violence are others. These events and/or trends indicate the 2nd advent is close, but don't give anything more specific.
The marker types act like mile markers along the interstate. They don't necessarily predict anything as the seasonal type do, but they do function as as sort of navigation aid so that we may know how far we have come in God's plan.
One mistake Darby and his disciples make is to hammer these predictions into a human pattern, instead of watching the skies, as it were. God never meant for any of us to be able to predict exact times and dates of any event prior to Jesus return. Jesus said that if we were His friends he'd tell us what he was doing. That's basically what we've got here. Jesus is telling us what He is doing, but all the time He is keeping one hand behind His back.
Another mistake is the timelessness of the Bible, especially when it comes to describing heavenly events in heavenly places. We are told, for example, that with God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day. In other words, there's no parallel to the passage of time that we know of. It's called eternity by many, but what does that mean exactly? The hymn Amazing Grace sings of 'being there ten thousand years'. Or is it really just ten minutes? See what I mean? The problem that springs from this examination is that human time line constructions don't always work very well. This includes the idea that the tribulation will last a specific length of time and that it will follow one event and precede another.
Here's my take.
The tribulation that the Bible speaks of was the holocaust. Why do I have that opinion? I didn't get it from John Darby, I got it from the Bible and Adolph Hitler.
All Biblical prophecy centers upon Israel and the Jew. There are secondary players in the tale to be sure, but for the most part the focus is on Israel in general and Jerusalem in particular. That being said, the tribulation was predicted to affect the Jew most of all. In the 1940's it did, and it did so at the hands of a man so fully consumed by the spirit of anti-christ that many folks of the time mistook Hitler for the incarnation of evil itself. Well, what can I say. If Adolph wasn't evil incarnate he came pretty close. Stalin was a close second or maybe first depending upon how you look at the numbers. As far as the Jew is concerned, Hitler's holocaust was the greatest tribulation they had ever known. As far as I'm concerned the discussion ends there.
There is also a curious aspect to the tension between Christianity and the Jew throughout history. Despite our savior being a Jew, we have thoroughly and completely despised his natural kin, the Jews. In centuries past, the church oppressed them and as recently as the 1950's in America, anti-semitism was in full bloom. So it does not surprise me one bit that Christians today who are otherwise good and kind folk should find themselves gleefully and gladly expecting yet ANOTHER holocaust to spring upon the Jewish race. They need to be saved, we tell one another, and the lash is the best way to do it.
Jesus doesn't think like man (thank God). Could it be at all possible that the Holy Spirit might find other gentler ways to convict Israel of His love and salvation? Can He not melt their hearts as He did ours so that they may also be saved? The Bible says it will happen. That's a prediction that doesn't seem to mesh with the violent aspect of a 2nd tribulation theory. I for one have no doubt that Our Lord still has a few gentle tricks up His sleeve.
Yes, I have a big problem with Christians STILL wishing for MORE Jewish blood to be spilled. How much is enough? When is it enough? The tribulation has already happened. If that spoils somebodys' carefully constructed time line for future events, then so be it. Wishing for another time of murder to fall upon the Jew is anti-semitic at best and evidence of demonic hatred at worst. It is certainly NOT a Christian attitude and I think that those who hope for it should be ashamed of themselves.
but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, rjp34652.
The tribulation (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure; distress") is not limited to a mere 7 years nor is the "Great Tribulation" limited to 3.5 years. The tribulation has been going on since 66 A.D. and will continue until the Master Yeshua` the Messiah returns. It is NOT linked to the 70th seven of Daniel 9:24-27 in any way. Those who say that they are the same time period are misled by the rhetoric of certain theological positions. I would challenge anyone to show biblical proof that they are the same period.
The tribulation INCLUDES the Holocaust, but it also includes the pogroms, the inquisitions, the purges, the Crusades, the Roman persecutions, and all of the pressure that is put upon the Isra'eli people by their neighbors today!
The tribulation (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure; distress") is not limited to a mere 7 years nor is the "Great Tribulation" limited to 3.5 years. The tribulation has been going on since 66 A.D. and will continue until the Master Yeshua` the Messiah returns. It is NOT linked to the 70th seven of Daniel 9:24-27 in any way. Those who say that they are the same time period are misled by the rhetoric of certain theological positions. I would challenge anyone to show biblical proof that they are the same period.
The tribulation INCLUDES the Holocaust, but it also includes the pogroms, the inquisitions, the purges, the Crusades, the Roman persecutions, and all of the pressure that is put upon the Isra'eli people by their neighbors today!
Just about every bit of that is opinion, and does not follow the written Scripture.
Christ gave the events of "great tribulation" only within timeframe of the very end of this world, per His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13. He marked that specific time to a period of persecution of His saints on earth that has never yet been, nor ever will be again. And He was talking about HIS sheep who believe on Him, i.e., Christians, not unbelieving Jews.
The Orthodox unbelievers Jews today will not be under the persecution of the "great tribulation" He mentioned. They will be deceived instead. The devil's servants will not persecute those who already refuse Christ Jesus as The Messiah. Since those are deceived away from Christ, it means Satan already has them in his hand through deception.
This 1260 day, 3 1/2 year time frame is hard linked to the event of Revelation 12:9.
Specifically when the Devil and his angels are cast down and confined to the earth!
Revelation 12:12-14
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Specifically when the Devil and his angels are cast down and confined to the earth!
Revelation 12:12-14
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
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