We must be born again to be God's kingdom.

[tom55]

We've been adopted into a family...John 8:34-36 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Rom 8:23 NIV, Rom 9:4 NIV, Gal 4:4-7 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Eph 1:4-5 NIV, Eph 2:19 NIV, 1 Pet 5:9 NIV

Jesus died for past, present and future sins...Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, Rom 8:38-39 ESV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-12 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

We belong to Christ...John 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, Rom 1:6 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 14:8 NIV, 2 Cor 10:7 NIV, Gal 2:12 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 5:24 NIV, Gal 6:10 NIV, Heb 10:38-39 NIV, 1 John 2:19 NIV, 1 John 5:12 NIV

We are written in the book of life forever...Luke 10:18-20 NIV, Phil 4:3 NIV, Heb 12:22-24 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 13:8 NIV, Rev 17:8 NIV, Rev 20:12-15 NIV, Rev 21:27 NIV

There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus...Mark 16:16 NIV, John 3:18 NIV, John 5:28-29 NIV, John 8:11 NIV, John 16:11 NIV, Rom 3:6-8 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:1-2 NIV, Rom 8:34 ESV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, 2 Thess 2:11-12 NIV, 2 Pet 2:3 NIV, 1 John 3:21 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Once we believe, we have eternal life...John 3:14-16 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, John 4:13-14 NIV, John 5:24 NIV, John 5:39-43 NIV, John 6:40 NIV, John 6:47 NIV, John 6:54 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, John 17:1-3 NIV, Acts 13:46-48 NIV, Rom 5:21 NIV, Rom 6:22-23 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 Thess 2:16-17 NIV, 1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV, Tit 1:1-3 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, 1 John 1:1-4 NIV, 1 John 5:9-14 NIV, 1 John 5:20 NIV

We are heirs to Christ...Acts 3:25 NIV, Rom 4:13-14 NIV, Rom 8:15-17 NIV, Gal 3:29 NIV, Gal 4:7 NIV, Eph 3:6 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV, Heb 6:17 NIV, Heb 11:9 NIV

We have an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade...Dan 12:13 NIV, Matt 25:34 NIV, Acts 20:32 NIV, Gal 3:18 NIV, Gal 4:30-31 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 1:18 NIV, Col 1:12 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, 1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV

We are only justified once...Acts 13:39 NIV, Rom 3:24-28 NIV, Rom 4:2 NIV, Rom 4:25 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Rom 5:16 NIV, Rom 8:30 NIV, Rom 8:33 ESV, Rom 10:9-10 NIV, 1 Cor 6:11 NIV, Gal 2:16-17 NIV, Gal 3:11 NIV, Gal 3:24 NIV, Gal 5:4 NIV, Tit 3:7 NIV

God will lose none of the elect...John 6:35-40 NIV, John 17:9-10 NIV, John 17:12 NIV, Rom 5:5 NIV

Nonbelievers are considered lost, not believers...Matt 18:12-14 NIV, Luke 19:9-10 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV

Overcoming is based on belief, not works...John 16:33 NIV, Acts 20:28 NIV, 1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV, 1 John 2:13-14 NIV, 1 John 4:4 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

It's not our works that keep us saved, it's His...Isa 64:6 NIV, Matt 6:1 NIV, Matt 23:25-26 NIV, Matt 23:27-28 NIV, Luke 18:19 NIV, John 6:28-29 NIV, Rom 3:9-20 NIV, Rom 3:21-31 NIV, Rom 4:3-11 NIV, Rom 4:22-24 NIV, Rom 5:17-21 NIV, Rom 6:16-20 NIV, Rom 8:9-11 NIV, Rom 9:30-33 NIV, Rom 10:3-4 NIV, Rom 11:5-7 NIV, 1 Cor 1:30 NIV, 1 Cor 3:13-15 NIV, 1 Cor 8:1 NIV, 1 Cor 15:10-11 NIV, 2 Cor 1:9 NIV, 2 Cor 3:5 NIV, 2 Cor 5:15 NIV, Gal 1:6-7 NIV, Gal 2:21 NIV, Gal 3:1-5 NIV, Gal 3:6-7 NIV, Gal 4:9 NIV, Eph 2:7-9 NIV, Phil 1:9-11 NIV, Phil 2:12-13 NIV, Phil 3:8-11 NIV, 1 Tim 4:10 NIV, 2 Tim 1:9 NIV, Tit 3:5 NIV, Rev 15:4 NIV

We are sealed until the day of redemption...John 6:27 NIV, 1 Cor 9:2 NIV, 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Rev 9:4 NIV

The seed of God that is in us is imperishable...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV

The truth will be in us forever...Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV

We are victorious by our belief in Jesus, not by works...Prov 21:31 NIV, John 16:33 NIV, Rom 8:35 NIV, Rom 8:37 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, 2 Cor 2:14 NIV, 1 John 5:4-5 NIV, Rev 2:7 NIV, Rev 2:11 NIV, Rev 3:5 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV, Rev 21:7-8 NIV

And to save the best for last, neither death nor life can separate us from the love of God...Rom 8:38-39 NIV, Rev 20:14 NIV.

- ATP

You have referenced A LOT of passages many of which, in my humble opinion, have nothing to do with OSAS beliefs. I am being sincere when I say I truly, truly do not understand the OSAS belief. Your extensive reference to scripture confused me even more. Historically, the best I can tell, the OSAS doctrine started with Calvin so it has only been around for 500 years. I guess all the great theologians 1500 years before Calvin were not as smart as him?

Just looking at your “best for last”: Rom 8:38-39, Do you find anywhere in the list things like disobedience, murder or adultery? Why didn’t Paul add sin to the list if nothing can separate a believer from God? Why have a list? Why didn’t he just say NOTHING can separate us?

And your “best for last” use of Rev 20:14 confused me even more. I don’t see anything in their that justifies OSAS belief, however, if you put it in context you see in Rev 20:13 that “they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds”. If we are judged by our deeds and if our deeds ‘after’ we are “saved” are not good deeds then how can one be OSAS?

One of your topics was, “We are written in the book of life forever”. As you know scripture also says: “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book”. How can we be in the book forever if we can be blotted out?

If you are suggesting once I believe in Him I am always saved my question to you would be: If I stop believing in Him am I still saved?

If one thinks after being “saved” that they can be disobedient to Gods commandments or not love their brothers/sisters and still gain eternal salvation then they are untaught and unstable people who have twisted scripture to their own destruction. As we all know, Peter was satan. How do we know this? Because Jesus said he was. I, Tom55, know I’m right because it is written in the bible. Now I ask you ATP to prove me wrong about Peter being satan.

 

[IanLC]

I look at it quite simply. Man is born in the natural of spirit and water (amniotic fluid in the womb). Thus Jesus declares "You should not be surprised (MARVEL NOT)at my saying, 'You must be born again.'" (John 3:7). In the beginning, the world was created through the Spirit of the Lord and water! "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness wasupon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2) When God destroyed the earth with the flood, He had the dove (Spirit) confirm to Noah that life had been restored and he could exit the Ark. (Genesis 8:12) Thus, life came again with the Spirit and water!
When, Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be "Born of Water and The Spirit" He was revealing how one is born again! (John 3:5). We're saved by faith through God's grace and thus we are born again through the Washing of the Word (Ephesians 5:26) and the fire of the Holy Ghost who is also living waters (John 7:38-39). We go down in the water of baptism and are kept by the seal of the Spirit!
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

 

[Zachary]

No, verse 8 applies to the unsaved, not the saved/born again people.

[SIZE=12pt]8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]So, God sends the unsaved to hell for doing these things.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And, God sends the saved to heaven for doing these things.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Okay, great ... Next, please ...[/SIZE]

 

[Zachary]

Tom55,

Romans 12:1 ... "There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"

IMO, born-again Christians who are involved in habitual unrepentant sinning are NO longer "in Christ".

 

[ATP]

You have referenced A LOT of passages many of which, in my humble opinion, have nothing to do with OSAS beliefs. I am being sincere when I say I truly, truly do not understand the OSAS belief. Your extensive reference to scripture confused me even more. Historically, the best I can tell, the OSAS doctrine started with Calvin so it has only been around for 500 years. I guess all the great theologians 1500 years before Calvin were not as smart as him?

Just looking at your “best for last”: Rom 8:38-39, Do you find anywhere in the list things like disobedience, murder or adultery? Why didn’t Paul add sin to the list if nothing can separate a believer from God? Why have a list? Why didn’t he just say NOTHING can separate us?

And your “best for last” use of Rev 20:14 confused me even more. I don’t see anything in their that justifies OSAS belief, however, if you put it in context you see in Rev 20:13 that “they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds”. If we are judged by our deeds and if our deeds ‘after’ we are “saved” are not good deeds then how can one be OSAS?

One of your topics was, “We are written in the book of life forever”. As you know scripture also says: “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book”. How can we be in the book forever if we can be blotted out?

If you are suggesting once I believe in Him I am always saved my question to you would be: If I stop believing in Him am I still saved?

If one thinks after being “saved” that they can be disobedient to Gods commandments or not love their brothers/sisters and still gain eternal salvation then they are untaught and unstable people who have twisted scripture to their own destruction. As we all know, Peter was satan. How do we know this? Because Jesus said he was. I, Tom55, know I’m right because it is written in the bible. Now I ask you ATP to prove me wrong about Peter being satan.

How can we lose our salvation if Jesus paid the sin penalty tom?

Tom55,

Romans 12:1 ... "There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"

IMO, born-again Christians who are involved in habitual unrepentant sinning are NO longer "in Christ".

How can we lose our salvation if Jesus paid the sin penalty Zachary?

 

[tom55]

How can we lose our salvation if Jesus paid the sin penalty tom?


How can we lose our salvation if Jesus paid the sin penalty Zachary?

"I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, IF you hold it fast otherwise you have believed in vain." So IF you hold fast to the gospel, you are saved. IF you don't hold fast to the gospel you loose your salvation.

"But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation IF you continue in your faith..... AND do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." IF you continue the faith and you do not loose hope in the gospel you will be reconciled by Christ death.

We also know that, "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." So IF you don't provide for your relatives/household you have denied the faith and you are worse than an unbeliever. Therefore you MUST do more than believe in Him to be saved and as you, ATP, have said an UNBELIEVER can not have salvation.

Like Paul said, it is a race and he fought the good fight. It's not a one time deal where he accepted Him and he was magically saved forever. Unless of course you, ATP, are better than Paul? Paul also said, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." It makes me, Tom55, sad that untaught and unstable people have twisted scripture to their own destruction.


Interesting you did not answer one of my three legitimate questions:

If we are judged by our deeds and if our deeds ‘after’ we are “saved” are not good deeds then how can one be OSAS?

How can we be in the book forever if we can be blotted out?

If I stop believing in Him am I still saved?

 

[ATP]

"But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation IF you continue in your faith..... AND do not move from the hope held out in the gospel." IF you continue the faith and you do not loose hope in the gospel you will be reconciled by Christ death.

This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. If you notice in Col 1:22 NIV it says we have already been reconciled through the blood of Christ shed on the cross. His blood is permanent. Also notice that the body of Christ is the one time sacrifice for sins in Col 1:22 NIV and Heb 10:10-12 NIV.

We also know that, "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." So IF you don't provide for your relatives/household you have denied the faith and you are worse than an unbeliever. Therefore you MUST do more than believe in Him to be saved and as you, ATP, have said an UNBELIEVER can not have salvation.

The word "salvation" is nowhere to be found here. Why would God allow the younger widows to lose their salvation because they want to marry, and then turn around and say it is actually better if you marry....

1 Cor 7:8-9 NIV Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

1 Tim 5:11 NIV As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.

1 Tim 5:14 NIV So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

1 Tim 5:9 NIV - Paul has shown what the families should do for their widows. Now he turns to what the church members should do. They may provide for those who have no family to support them. The church at that time used to give a promise of support to those who passed some tests. These they put on an official list. Once they were on the list, the church members would provide for them for the rest of their lives. To qualify for the list the widow must be at least 60 years old. In those days people thought that at that age, she was an old woman. She would not get married again. She must have no family. Or, if she had, they did not support her. That could only be if the family were not Christians. She must have been living with and loyal to her husband while he was alive.

1 Tim 5:11 NIV - Paul does not say that the church should not look after the younger widows. He says that the church should not add them to the list for which there is the promise of continued support. These widows do not qualify for the list because of their age. They are not yet 60 years old. To be on the list carries with it a promise to serve Christ in the church in some way. This means that those on the list are not free to marry. It is quite likely that at some time a young widow will want to marry again. If she were on the list, her marriage would break the promise that she had made to Christ. She would not then be loyal to him because she had promised to give herself to serve him.

1 Tim 5:12 NIV - If a widow is not on the list she can get married. Paul says that it would be a good thing if they did get married (verse 14). But being on the list involves a promise to God. That means that they would not get married. If they do get married, they break that promise. They are guilty of turning away from the *Lord.

Like Paul said, it is a race and he fought the good fight. It's not a one time deal where he accepted Him and he was magically saved forever. Unless of course you, ATP, are better than Paul? Paul also said, "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." It makes me, Tom55, sad that untaught and unstable people have twisted scripture to their own destruction.

Running the race has to do with winning or losing crowns in heaven. It has nothing to do with losing salvation.

1 Cor 9:24-27 NIV Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

1 - Crown 1 - Crown of Righteousness— Loved the Lord's Appearing - 2 Tim 4:8 NIV
2 - Crown 2 - Incorruptible Crown— Disciplined Bodies / Self-Control - 1 Cor 9:25-27 NIV
3 - Crown 3 - Crown of Life— Endured Patiently through Trials - James 1:12 NIV, Rev 2:10 NIV
4 - Crown 4 - Crown of Glory— Godly Leaders Who were Examples to Flock - 1 Pet 5:2-4 NIV
5 - Crown 5 - Crown of Rejoicing— Soul Winners Crown - 1 Thess 2:19 NIV, Dan 12:3 NIV

Interesting you did not answer one of my three legitimate questions:

If we are judged by our deeds and if our deeds ‘after’ we are “saved” are not good deeds then how can one be OSAS?

How can we be in the book forever if we can be blotted out?

If I stop believing in Him am I still saved?

1. Being judged by our deeds is about winning or losing crowns in heaven, and we're actually not judged. We're rewarded. We've already been judged at the cross when we believed.
2. Nowhere in the new testament does it say we can be blotted out.
3. It's impossible to stop believing because we are only justified once.

Can you please use bigger font. - ATP

 

[tom55]

1. Being judged by our deeds is about winning or losing crowns in heaven, and we're actually not judged. We're rewarded. We've already been judged at the cross when we believed.

There are multiple references in scripture I could quote that clearly says we are judged by our deeds (works). But since you choose to disregard scripture that doesn't fit your belief it is a waste of my time to quote them. ATP says we are not judged by our deeds. Scripture says we are. I choose scripture.

2. Nowhere in the new testament does it say we can be blotted out.

NT Scripture says for those who are "worthy", "....I will not blot his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father....." So that means your name CAN be blotted out! ATP says we can't be blotted out. Scripture makes it clear we can be. I choose scripture.

3. It's impossible to stop believing because we are only justified once.

ATP says its "Impossible to stop believing". Scripture says, "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." So they were following Him, but then stopped when He said something they didn't like. Dan Barker and Charles Templeton wrote books about how/why they stopped believing. We KNOW that it is possible for a person to stop accepting something to be true therefor your statement is not based on logic or scripture. I choose logic and scripture!!



Can you please use bigger font. - ATP

I apologize for the small font!!

 

[ATP]

1. Being judged by our deeds is about winning or losing crowns in heaven, and we're actually not judged. We're rewarded. We've already been judged at the cross when we believed.

There are multiple references in scripture I could quote that clearly says we are judged by our deeds (works). But since you choose to disregard scripture that doesn't fit your belief it is a waste of my time to quote them. ATP says we are not judged by our deeds. Scripture says we are. I choose scripture.

2. Nowhere in the new testament does it say we can be blotted out.

NT Scripture says for those who are "worthy", "....I will not blot his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father....." So that means your name CAN be blotted out! ATP says we can't be blotted out. Scripture makes it clear we can be. I choose scripture.

3. It's impossible to stop believing because we are only justified once.

ATP says its "Impossible to stop believing". Scripture says, "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him." So they were following Him, but then stopped when He said something they didn't like. Dan Barker and Charles Templeton wrote books about how/why they stopped believing. We KNOW that it is possible for a person to stop accepting something to be true therefor your statement is not based on logic or scripture. I choose logic and scripture!!

Brother, eternal life is based on belief not works.

John 3:14-16 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 10:25-30 NIV Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Rom 6:22-23 NIV But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Tit 1:1-3 NIV Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

 

[tom55]

Brother, eternal life is based on belief not works.

I now understand how you, ATP, defend your beliefs:
First: You decide what you want to believe.
Second: Find scripture that backs up what you believe.
Third: Ignore anything in scripture that contradicts what you believe.
Fourth: When someone quotes scripture that proves you have twisted/distorted scripture to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16) you ignore them and scripture.

I, Tom55, am not that type of person. I only speak the truth thru scripture. And the truth is Saul hated Jesus, persecuted him and the Christians of that time. Peter was obviously satan and denied Jesus just like atheist do:



Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan!

You were one of those with Jesus of Nazareth. But Peter denied it. “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” he said.
And you, ATP, can't prove me, Tom55, wrong!!

 

[ATP]

Brother, eternal life is based on belief not works.


I now understand how you, ATP, defend your beliefs:
First: You decide what you want to believe.
Second: Find scripture that backs up what you believe.
Third: Ignore anything in scripture that contradicts what you believe.
Fourth: When someone quotes scripture that proves you have twisted/distorted scripture to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16) you ignore them and scripture.

I, Tom55, am not that type of person. I only speak the truth thru scripture. And the truth is Saul hated Jesus, persecuted him and the Christians of that time. Peter was obviously satan and denied Jesus just like atheist do:



Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.
Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” “Who are you?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan!

You were one of those with Jesus of Nazareth. But Peter denied it. “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” he said.
And you, ATP, can't prove me, Tom55, wrong!

No tom, eternal life scriptures are in the Word of God. Either you believe or you don't.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

[tom55]

No tom, eternal life scriptures are in the Word of God. Either you believe or you don't.

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

You have truly, truly confused me. You don't answer questions. You change the subject. You reject scripture that you don't agree with. I pray that God blesses you, keeps you safe and you obtain eternal salvation.

Respectfully, Tom55

 

[ATP]

You have truly, truly confused me. You don't answer questions. You change the subject. You reject scripture that you don't agree with. I pray that God blesses you, keeps you safe and you obtain eternal salvation.

Respectfully, Tom55

The good news of the gospel is very simple tom. Once you believe you are saved and have eternal life. What is confusing?

 

[John3:16]

The good news of the gospel is very simple tom. Once you believe you are saved and have eternal life. What is confusing?

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Paul says if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus. This word confess here means <homogleo> in Greek this word means to speak the same thing. We need all speak the same thing as far as only one plan how to be saved. One Lord, one faith, one baptism and one way to be born again. Here are two examples of <homogleo>. Both confess and professed give a clearer meaning.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

There is another meaning for confess in Greek that is <exomologeo> this means public acknowledgment or acknowledge openly. This is used in James 5 :16, "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

One who believeth tells what is Gods righteousness and with his mouth tells of salvation. Because the next verse fits tells he is not ashamed of it.

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over al is rich unto all that call upon him.

The good news is preached to by those who believeth, the just live by faith to faith. Paul wrote this to the Romans in the beginning of his epistle read on.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

One example people quote is Acts chapter 16 Paul’s and Silas encounter with the jailer.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? [31] And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [32] And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

No mention on confess with your mouth. No mention of him believe with your heart, or calling upon the name of the Lord. Why in the middle of the night does he want to be baptized? But when he gets to hear the word of the Lord he goes and gets baptized with his household.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Again Paul says we need to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Maybe we need to know what this word call means in this text since there are 33 different meanings for call. In Greek this is <epikaleomai> To invoke or sir name. Only one in authority can use the name in authority such a preacher. That's why the next verse in Romans 10:14 declares this truth.
(There is an account of seven Jews who call on the name Lord Jesus over evil spirits. Read what happens to them in Acts 19:13 thru 16)

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

First the preacher is sent to preach the good news. Then they believe when they hear that when the name off Jesus is called upon them in baptism for the remission of their sins. Read Paul’s experience even he needed a preacher to call on the name of the Lord.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord.

The word calling in Paul’s own in baptism is <epikaleomai> invoking the name of the Lord.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

But baptism is works and we are not saved by works. Let me ask you this! Is fasting works? Is praying works? Is reading your Bible works? Is going to church works? Are you not going to be judged according to your works? Are you not going to receive a reward according to your works? I hoped you answered yes to all these.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Faith without works is dead (James 2:20). And, since faith is dead if it does not have works, "genuine" faith will very definitely produce good works. However, good works does not necessarily produce "genuine" faith.

When Jesus was baptized notice three things happened.
1) The heavens were opened!
2) God declares his Son ship!
3) God declared he was pleased!

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

 

[ATP]

Amen.

 

[ATP]

You have truly, truly confused me. You don't answer questions. You change the subject. You reject scripture that you don't agree with. I pray that God blesses you, keeps you safe and you obtain eternal salvation.

Respectfully, Tom55

We are born of imperishable seed, not perishable,

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

and the truth is in us forever..

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

 

[Zachary]

ATP asked: How can we lose our salvation if Jesus paid the sin penalty Zachary?

It's easy ... many believers have:
-- rejected God's grace
-- continued in unrepented-of sin
-- disobeyed God's commands
and many etc.

Believers are expected to uphold their part in God's new covenant.
Just as the Israelites were expected to.
However, the new covenant is better because ...
believers have been given a new nature, and they have been given the Holy Spirit.
So, they really have NO excuse.
Far less excuse than those poor Israelites ...
who only had God's prophets harping at their dead sinful flesh.
God had proven that it was impossible for man to satisfy Him
without some heavy-duty intervention on His part.
Hence the new and better new covenant.

 

[ATP]

It's easy ... many believers have:
-- rejected God's grace
-- continued in unrepented-of sin
-- disobeyed God's commands
and many etc.

Why would a believer do that. They no longer go on sinning because God's seed remains in them 1 John 3:9 NIV. What you're describing are nonbelievers who haven't received salvation yet....

1 John 2:18-19 NIV Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

- ATP

 

[KingJ]

I can expand...

Lets say I "keep the commands" for one day. Would this qualify for being born again?

If the answer is no, then how long do I need to "keep the commands"? If continually, then logically it follows that I have to continue "keeping the commands" until the end of my days. Then according to the rules you set forth no one can be born again until they die.

Also I wonder about those who "keep the commands" for some time, then quit, then come back to "keeping the commands". Did they become born again, only to not be born again, then born again, again?

Then we have the case of one who "keeps the commands" for some time, then quits without returning to "keeping the commands". Was/is this person ever born again?

Here is what Jesus says about being born again...

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

And He clarifies the teaching here...

13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. - John 3:13-18

Proper exegesis here shows belief or faith...

So then to continue the question and to clarify your ambiguous OP, as I am not attempting to derail this thread unlike how you malign me...

Are you teaching sinless perfection?

None of the above.

The message is for us to not have the cart before the horse. Unless you are born again you cannot keep the commandments. If you are born again you will keep the commandments. Not cart (keep the commandments) before horse (born again).

 

[KingJ]

Believing comes once, sanctification is the process.

I wish I was here at the start of this thread. You all ignored the question of what exactly being born again involves.


Sancitifcation is not a process! Believing what exactly?... comes once...