Were the Apostles Murdered? And why?

[Rach1370]

Jesus and the Apostles were often stern, even in love.

Romans 16:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

Jesus used the term 'hypocrites' SCATHINGLY.

Those who attack God's Word are not my brothers. They are 'tares' inspired by Satan.

Okay, I'm not say at all that you need to agree with them, or bend your beliefs in order to be kind to them. But consider: yes, Jesus was harsh at times...especially with the Pharisees. But He was also wise. Do you think that ALL situations call for that harsh response? Because He was not harsh to all sinners, to all those mistaken or unwise. In fact more often He was kind, caring, understanding...even to the point of death.
The other thing I would point out is this: the verse you quoted above tells you to avoid those who are opposed to the gospel. Shouldn't you then, if you truly believe those things against those you argue with, just not discuss it with them, just not reply. Maybe avoid them. Because even as you support your beliefs so do they theirs. There will be no winning, no clear division to those reading along...just argument and a lot of confusion...which the verse clearly advisers against. Shouldn't you just state your firm beliefs once or twice and then drop it and leave it to the grace of God?

 

[Duckybill]

Okay, I'm not say at all that you need to agree with them, or bend your beliefs in order to be kind to them. But consider: yes, Jesus was harsh at times...especially with the Pharisees. But He was also wise. Do you think that ALL situations call for that harsh response? Because He was not harsh to all sinners, to all those mistaken or unwise. In fact more often He was kind, caring, understanding...even to the point of death.
The other thing I would point out is this: the verse you quoted above tells you to avoid those who are opposed to the gospel. Shouldn't you then, if you truly believe those things against those you argue with, just not discuss it with them, just not reply. Maybe avoid them. Because even as you support your beliefs so do they theirs. There will be no winning, no clear division to those reading along...just argument and a lot of confusion...which the verse clearly advisers against. Shouldn't you just state your firm beliefs once or twice and then drop it and leave it to the grace of God?

If you will notice, my replies are concerning Biblical doctrine. That's what upsets people. Why else would the Apostles be murdered?

Mark 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.

 

[aspen]

Nothing wrong with the Bible, it the interpretation of the Bible through the lens of fear rather than love that is the problem. Also, Jesus was harsh with people who misused doctrine - He rightly referred to them as hypocrites because they were so harsh, and made it so difficult for people to perform all the necessary circus tricks in order to please them (claiming that God demanded it) that the Pharisees themselves were unable to fulfill their own mandates! Jesus is inclusive - He wants to be in relationship with us - humans are exclusive - we want to be better than everyone else and therefore create hurdles to keep others out.

Read C.S. Lewis' short essay "The Inner Circle" - in it, he explains our desire to constantly chase after the most exclusive crowd of people or place of honor. I promise you, Hell will be the fulfillment of this desire - it will be a place of utter exclusivity - radical individualism - no one, but yourself for eternity.

 

[Rach1370]

If you will notice, my replies are concerning Biblical doctrine. That's what upsets people. Why else would the Apostles be murdered?

Mark 13:13 (NKJV)
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.

I agree that good doctrine is pivotal to Christian faith. But here's the thing. Doctrine is a theological summary of the teachings/ideas in scripture. And theology, while always based on scripture, is an interpretation or theory of the individual theologian.
So those you disagree with may be very faithfully following the doctrine they have been taught. How does that make them so very different from you? From me? Everyone believes their truth is the real truth. So doctrine, in and of itself, is important, yes, but it cannot be the yard stick for truth...only going directly back to the Bible can. We must hold tightly enough to our doctrine to let it guide our lives, but not so tight that it cannot be guided by scripture.
And I really don't think the disciples were murdered for their doctrine, exactly. Remember that they were killed by unbelievers...not believers with dodgy doctrine. They were murdered because they called Jesus Lord. "...for my names sake."

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

If you have Scripture to prove your point then you would have jumped in at the appropriate time. So why didn't you?

I don't need scripture to point out squabbles. I don't need scripture to see that you guys need a break. I don't need scripture to see when conversations are heated. I don't need scripture to see that disputes are becoming about personal victory.

To be honest, there's things that both of you have said that I don't agree with. That said, just because I don't agree with every little thing doesn't mean I should confront each and everyone of them. It doesn't mean that I need to get ate up and start accusing someone of distorting the truth.

As believers I don't feel we need to agree on every doctrine or interpretation of the Bible. I also don't believe that someone is hell bound because they may or may not have the same interpretation of the Bible as me.

Not every little thing needs to be argued about. Certainly every single thread doesn't need to be hijacked over such trivial matters.
It's painfully obvious to me that you both need a break. You both need to step away from the situation and take a breather and calm down.

 

[Prentis]

Good doctrine is to love the Lord your God, and to love your neighbor as yourself. It is to obey God and what he commands, and to speak and do all things in love, according to wisdom.

The rest flows from that

 

[Comm.Arnold]

I hope duckybill and aspen find lasting happiness. :wub:

 

[Duckybill]

I don't need scripture to point out squabbles. I don't need scripture to see that you guys need a break. I don't need scripture to see when conversations are heated. I don't need scripture to see that disputes are becoming about personal victory.

To be honest, there's things that both of you have said that I don't agree with. That said, just because I don't agree with every little thing doesn't mean I should confront each and everyone of them. It doesn't mean that I need to get ate up and start accusing someone of distorting the truth.

As believers I don't feel we need to agree on every doctrine or interpretation of the Bible. I also don't believe that someone is hell bound because they may or may not have the same interpretation of the Bible as me.

Not every little thing needs to be argued about. Certainly every single thread doesn't need to be hijacked over such trivial matters.
It's painfully obvious to me that you both need a break. You both need to step away from the situation and take a breather and calm down.

The integrity of the Bible is certainly to be defended. Otherwise we have nothing. Not even Jesus.

I hope duckybill and aspen find lasting happiness. :wub:

'Happiness' will only be lasting by following God's roadmap to His Kingdom. Not by filling it with contradictions and myth.

 

[Duckybill]

So those you disagree with may be very faithfully following the doctrine they have been taught. How does that make them so very different from you? From me?

The main issue as of late is the integrity of the Bible, not so much specific doctrine. Contradiction and myths? Nah. We'd better know about Biblical doctrine because Satan is busy presenting his own imitations of the Bible.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Clearly warning us that Satan can and does persuade humans to leave the Christian Faith for his doctrines. "Doctrines of demons" are not entitled "doctrines of demons".

The 'contradictions and myths' being presented by several here make it clear that Satan has seduced them. They still profess to be Christians of course. It's the wheat and tares thing.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

The integrity of the Bible is certainly to be defended. Otherwise we have nothing. Not even Jesus.

Sure I agree to an extent. But, defense of personal integrity needs to take a break..............

 

[Rach1370]

The main issue as of late is the integrity of the Bible, not so much specific doctrine. Contradiction and myths? Nah. We'd better know about Biblical doctrine because Satan is busy presenting his own imitations of the Bible.

1 Timothy 4:1 (NKJV)
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Clearly warning us that Satan can and does persuade humans to leave the Christian Faith for his doctrines. "Doctrines of demons" are not entitled "doctrines of demons".

The 'contradictions and myths' being presented by several here make it clear that Satan has seduced them. They still profess to be Christians of course. It's the wheat and tares thing.

I completely agree that the Bible should not be questioned. To do so is to question God's sovereign ability to shepard His word to us. I also agree that yes, Satan does know scripture and loves to undermine it especially to cause the saved to stumble if he can.
The people on this board that you are arguing against, however, I just don't think that they've lost their salvation. I question the wisdom of some, and their actual knowledge of scripture re the 'contradictions'. I know Robbie disregards Paul's writings where they 'contradict' Jesus...or more importantly the 'Jesus within him'....and I just have to think that is the height of foolishness. Jesus Christ...knowing everything that would come...came down from heaven to pick Paul for that ministry. So really, what Robbie is saying is that he 'trusts the spirit within him to show him truth...but Jesus got that one wrong, cause Paul didn't stay true'. But I can't see how calling him unsaved and ensnared to the doctrines of demons is going to help the man. He needs encouraging towards the truth with love, kindness and patience. Harshness is only going to put his back up and lose any chance of helping him (and that is something I too must strive to remember!). We must remember what it is that God loves...people. He wouldn't want us defending the gospel at the expense of a soul...he would want us to find a way to both nurture a soul and protect scripture!

[12] Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, [13] bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. [14] And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
(Colossians 3:12-14 ESV)

As much as you revere scripture, you cannot ignore how often it tells us to be loving. I do not say we must compromise the truth by being loving, because Jesus would not want that...but He obviously sees it as not only possible, but necessary to do everything in love...even rebuking.

 

[aspen]

Looks like WK has taken over for me......

 

[Duckybill]

The people on this board that you are arguing against, however, I just don't think that they've lost their salvation.

My point is that anyone charging the Bible with contradictions and myths is on dangerous ground. To give warnings is not saying they are not saved. On dangerous ground for sure. Though Aspen did agree that we have a different Jesus.

I question the wisdom of some, and their actual knowledge of scripture re the 'contradictions'. I know Robbie disregards Paul's writings where they 'contradict' Jesus...or more importantly the 'Jesus within him'....and I just have to think that is the height of foolishness. Jesus Christ...knowing everything that would come...came down from heaven to pick Paul for that ministry. So really, what Robbie is saying is that he 'trusts the spirit within him to show him truth...but Jesus got that one wrong, cause Paul didn't stay true'. But I can't see how calling him unsaved and ensnared to the doctrines of demons is going to help the man. He needs encouraging towards the truth with love, kindness and patience. Harshness is only going to put his back up and lose any chance of helping him (and that is something I too must strive to remember!). We must remember what it is that God loves...people. He wouldn't want us defending the gospel at the expense of a soul...he would want us to find a way to both nurture a soul and protect scripture!

Anyone who insists on using the Bible will be called unloving. I would rather be called unloving by people than to take liberties with God's Word and have to give account to Him. Anyone who rejects nearly half of the NT has no assurance of salvation, being generous.

As much as you revere scripture, you cannot ignore how often it tells us to be loving. I do not say we must compromise the truth by being loving, because Jesus would not want that...but He obviously sees it as not only possible, but necessary to do everything in love...even rebuking.

It certainly is possible to be wrong in some doctrine and still be a Christian. But if we stray from God's Word then we are no longer ambassadors for Jesus/God. Would a nation use an ambassador who does not do what they say? Of course not. The NT warnings are stern and scary. Tampering with God's Word is a BIG no no. Many will be lost forever and if we are partly responsible we will be held accountable.

Take note of this question:

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The one asking the question had a pretty good idea what Jesus was teaching.

Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

How many is a FEW? Noah knew. Lot knew. How much is the pearl of great price worth to you? Relaying God's message is true Biblical love. We are not authorized to make compromises for God.

 

[Rach1370]

My point is that anyone charging the Bible with contradictions and myths is on dangerous ground. To give warnings is not saying they are not saved. On dangerous ground for sure. Though Aspen did agree that we have a different Jesus.

Anyone who insists on using the Bible will be called unloving. I would rather be called unloving by people than to take liberties with God's Word and have to give account to Him. Anyone who rejects nearly half of the NT has no assurance of salvation, being generous.

It certainly is possible to be wrong in some doctrine and still be a Christian. But if we stray from God's Word then we are no longer ambassadors for Jesus/God. Would a nation use an ambassador who does not do what they say? Of course not. The NT warnings are stern and scary. Tampering with God's Word is a BIG no no. Many will be lost forever and if we are partly responsible we will be held accountable.

Take note of this question:

Luke 13:23-24 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The one asking the question had a pretty good idea what Jesus was teaching.

Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

How many is a FEW? Noah knew. Lot knew. How much is the pearl of great price worth to you? Relaying God's message is true Biblical love. We are not authorized to make compromises for God.

Ducky, dear! I have never said we should compromise! No, no way! As you say, would we prefer to be 'popular' with people or with God?
The point I'm trying to make is this: we can do all of this through love. How many times are called in the NT alone to be loving...even to our enemies? I'm just trying to say this...you would probably be more successful on this board...having genuine conversations about truth and the validity of scripture, if you just showed a little of that love. Jesus, the most loving man in the world, ordered us to love, He told us that it is most important command. The most important! So while we are to hold to everything else He taught us, and to stand firm by His word, surely we must realise that He wants us to do all this with and through love!
The people on this board, be they right or wrong, wise or foolish...they want conversation. They want to discuss ideas, bring up the merits and pit falls of each one. They want, even in being told they 'are wrong', a genuine desire by others to discuss the reasons of this, an opportunity to give their ideas, show scripture for their views. They do not want a short sentence telling them they are wrong and therefore damned. What if Jesus had only looked with a steely gaze on the sinners and said in a cold voice..."you're wrong...stop sinning or you'll perish". His message would have been absolutely right, but can you see how this just doesn't help? Jesus was loving, He was kind. He touched the unclean, ate with the wretched, and spoke to the sinful with love, gentleness and a genuine desire for them to turn to the truth. He was teaching us that we need to do the same, that more people will respond to the truth from such kindness. The people on this board are exactly the same. Speak the truth Ducky, no one is asking you otherwise. Just pepper a little love in...and trust me, God will only reward you for such faith. After all, it is His command.

 

[Duckybill]

Speak the truth Ducky, no one is asking you otherwise. Just pepper a little love in...and trust me, God will only reward you for such faith. After all, it is His command.

But again, what is Biblical love? The Apostles were murdered because of their faith. They were hated. Jesus said they would be hated. Were they unloving? No they were not. Neither am I. We only have one life to live in this world. We'd better get it right.

 

[goodshepard55]

Well as I have been searching scripture this morning in relation to this topic...can not find anywhere in the Word of God that supports they were murdered...

 

[Duckybill]

Well as I have been searching scripture this morning in relation to this topic...can not find anywhere in the Word of God that supports they were murdered...

Certainly the Bible doesn't go into detail but it does give some clues.

John 21:18-19 (NKJV)
18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish." 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me."

2 Timothy 4:6-8 (NKJV)
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

From Wikipedia:

According to Christian tradition:
Original Twelve picked by Jesus:

• Peter, crucified upside-down in Rome c. AD 64.
• James, son of Zebedee was beheaded in AD 44, first of the Twelve to die (since the addition of Matthias)
• John, son of Zebedee, no biblical record of death, he is believed to have died of natural causes due to old age. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that John was immortalized and he will live to see the Second Coming of Christ.[sup][20][/sup]
• Andrew, Peter's brother, was crucified upon a diagonal or X-shaped cross.
• Philip was crucified in AD 54.
• Bartholomew (also known as Nathaniel) was flayed alive (skinned) and then beheaded; some sources locate his death at Derbend on the Caspian Sea.[sup][21][/sup]
• Matthew killed by an axe in AD 60.
• Thomas was killed by a spear in Mylapore, Madras, India in AD 72.
• James, son of Alphaeus, beaten to death with a club after being crucified and stoned.
• Jude was crucified.
• Simon the Zealot was crucified in AD 74.
• Matthias, Judas' replacement, was stoned and beheaded.

http://en.wikipedia....Twelve_Apostles

 

[Rach1370]

But again, what is Biblical love? The Apostles were murdered because of their faith. They were hated. Jesus said they would be hated. Were they unloving? No they were not. Neither am I. We only have one life to live in this world. We'd better get it right.

I don't know that that makes a whole lot of sense, sorry. The Apostles were murdered because they loved? They were murdered because they called Jesus Lord. There is little chance that you will be murdered, either for being loved, or for calling Jesus Lord. It certainly won't kill you to show love to those here. You many indeed by a loving individual...but the only way others will know is if you show it. Indeed it can be a loving action to show others truth. But I think the point that everyone is trying to make here, is that while giving the truth in short, abrupt sentences, no one seems to be able to sense compassion and kindness behind those short answers.
You can dismiss what I'm saying, what everyone else is say...and I truly don't discuss it with you in hopes of bringing you down...I'm just trying to ease conversation between everyone...but turn to your Bible. It has all the answers there Duck. Search for what "biblical love" is. We see that it's kindness, compassion, a sacrificial love just as Jesus showed to us. A giving of ourselves for the good and glory of God and the well-being and preaching of the gospel to others. Forgiveness. The NT is rife with commands and actions of love.
Your doctrine is not bad Ducky, but no one will listen to you unless you can show a little humility. I pray that you will show this to others, because as you say, the truth needs to be heard.

[The Way of Love]
[13:1] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. [2] And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. [3] If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. [4] Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant [5] or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; [6] it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. [7] Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1 Corinthians 13:1-7 ESV)

 

[aspen]

I think it is apparent by now that when confronted with the smallest inkling of evidence, which supports a literal interpretation of the Bible or some other 'pet' Christian belief, it must be exploited fully and speculated on in the right direction until the cows come home. Conversely, any scientific evidence that challenges the conservative Christian status quo, must be denied and discredited immediately!

If you follow these unwritten rules, you are a 'good guy' and if you fail to do so you are in league with the Devil.

This type of Christianity is not about love, it is about team loyalty.

 

[Duckybill]

I don't know that that makes a whole lot of sense, sorry. The Apostles were murdered because they loved?

No, they were hated and murdered, even though they had Biblical love.

They were murdered because they called Jesus Lord. There is little chance that you will be murdered, either for being loved, or for calling Jesus Lord. It certainly won't kill you to show love to those here. You many indeed by a loving individual...but the only way others will know is if you show it. Indeed it can be a loving action to show others truth. But I think the point that everyone is trying to make here, is that while giving the truth in short, abrupt sentences, no one seems to be able to sense compassion and kindness behind those short answers.

Perhaps you should consider some of the many statements by Jesus and the Apostles before you accuse me of not showing love. I.E.

Galatians 1:8-9 (NKJV)
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Was Paul unloving? He wrote nearly half of the NT.

You can dismiss what I'm saying, what everyone else is say...and I truly don't discuss it with you in hopes of bringing you down...I'm just trying to ease conversation between everyone...but turn to your Bible. It has all the answers there Duck. Search for what "biblical love" is. We see that it's kindness, compassion, a sacrificial love just as Jesus showed to us. A giving of ourselves for the good and glory of God and the well-being and preaching of the gospel to others. Forgiveness. The NT is rife with commands and actions of love.

Did Jesus hate these?:

Matthew 23:13-15 (NKJV)
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Your doctrine is not bad Ducky, but no one will listen to you unless you can show a little humility. I pray that you will show this to others, because as you say, the truth needs to be heard.

John 15:18-21 (NKJV)
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.

2 Timothy 3:12 (NKJV)
12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

These comments came from very loving people. There are many more.