Were We Alive In Heaven Before We Were Born?

[Ziggy]

if we were here before conception ....where was our beginning?

Ha, then there is the theory of reincarnation.

Was John the baptist Elijah?
Have we been here before?
And if so, how many times?

Is it about the tabernacle we live in, or who inhabits the tabernacle?
I'm still out on reincarnation, but I believe if God wanted to send us back, he would.
Maybe we didn't learn what we needed to learn the last time. And we keep getting sent back until we figure it out.

But then you have that stickler verse where it says man is appointed once to die and after this the judgment.
Which is true if your speaking solely on the case of the flesh. One body one death.
But if you are sent back in another body....

Ah speculations are fun aren't they?
LOL
Hugs

 

[MA2444]

His sheep are those who believe on Him and follow Him. We aren't sheep until we believe on Him. At that point, our ears become attuned to His voice and we recognize His voice over false shepherds. That doesn't imply that we heard His voice before conception.

I did already believe in Him.

It implies that we heard His voice at sometime. Oh I suppose that God could have did some spooky God thing where He flipped my recognition switch to make me feel as if I recognize His voice. But I doubt that. From my experience here on earth, when someone says they recognize your voice then either they heard you speak before or are listening to tapes of your voice, but that's far fetched too. Lol. I didnt get to tape God's voice.

 

[MA2444]

It isn't scriptural... at all. Like I said before, if we were here before conception ....where was our beginning? Or do you think we have no beginning? If that's the case, we have to be God. lol

Whoa, cut the dose! Of course we had a beginning, we are clearly, Not God.

It is written God formed the body from the dust of the ground, and blew His Spirit into it...and Hu-Man was born. Right? You with me?

And is it not also written that when a persons flesh body dies, that the spirit returns unto God from where it came? Right? Yes or no. Yes.

So why do you limit God with your words? He has no rules for He is God. I don't yet remember where my beginning was because I have Am-nesia In the Lords plan, He wants to see us have faith in Him when we can not even see Him. Look to the unseen He says, seek me with your whole heart then you will find me. He had to wipe our memory before being born so we could have faith...and search!

It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: But the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25).

It sounds to me like the Lord has a great sense of humor! It don't matter if you believe it or not, I do. That's the Lord giving us hints? (I knew you Before...You'll know my voice) as the commander.

Do you think Jesus would make a good Military Commander? The answer is obvious, the Best. Would He send His soldier into the field without a Briefing?

 

[TLHKAJ]

So Bezaleel and Aholiab, neither of these were born again or knew Jesus. But God provided to them that which God needed to do the work he gave them to do.
My question would be.. When did they recieve the Spirit of God within them?
Who laid hands on them or baptised them?
Were they born with the Spirit of God in them or was it given at some other time?

If scripture doesn't tell us when, we don't need to know. But the point in my post was that we aren't His sheep if we are following another god. Obviously, these men in the OT were given gifts from God ...and they were servants of God. And it is a choice to serve God. From what we read, it seems to me that the wisdom and knowledge came from God .... probably, at their decision to serve God.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Ah speculations are fun aren't they?

Not when they lead us away from what scripture actually says. John the Baptist was not a reincarnation of Elijah. There are plenty of scriptures that confirm that (like you mentioned) it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment. Jesus stated that when a righteous person dies, they enter eternal life. When an unrighteous person dies, they enter eternal punishment. (Matthew 25:46) He didn't say that the unrighteous would get another chance and come back as another person or animal, etc. And Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

John the Baptist came with the same anointing that was upon Elijah. If he was literally Elijah, his name should have been ......Elijah. There is such a thing called resurrection from the dead, but that doesn't require a person to become an infant and be born again through the womb of a woman.

 

[TLHKAJ]

It isn't scriptural... at all. Like I said before, if we were here before conception ....where was our beginning? Or do you think we have no beginning? If that's the case, we have to be God. lol

If we believe scripture, we know that there is only one Creator God. There is none besides Him. We know that we weren't with God at the time of the creation of the earth. That was the whole point of God's conversation with Job..... "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" His point was ....Job wasn't there. And I believe He is saying the same thing to us when we try to raise ourselves to godhood and come to conclusions we have no business making.

If we weren't with God at the creation of the earth, then you can't assume that we came into being sometime after creation. God's neshamah is God. When neshemah unites with a body (or a fertilized egg), a living soul springs forth. THAT is our beginning ...at the point our living soul comes into being.

And btw .... life is in the blood. All the materials that are needed to be/create blood are present at conception. Pre-born babies do have blood.

 

[Mr E]

People constantly misunderstand. I don't think it's intentional, rather it's a result of having fallen victim to bad teaching which is perpetuated from those teachers themselves having received bad teaching from those before them. Over time it becomes -traditional. Orthodox.

And it remains a teaching as it began-- wrong.

The concept of reincarnation unfortunately, -because of all this, has taken on a negative connotation. Most think of it in terms of the Hindu concept where one comes back in a succession of forms-- lower animal and so forth. Maybe as a blade of grass if you had been unkind, or if you had led a good life previously-- maybe a grasshopper, rather than plain grass. It's contained within the concept of karma. -You get what you deserve-

Incidentally, at it's base form, this is not entirely unlike the scriptural idea of justice.

But that is not what reincarnation is.

 

[Mr E]

First of all-- consider what "incarnation" is....

All it means is-- "to have a bodily form and substance" -and this is in reference to spirit.

To "incarnate" is to have the spirit take on concrete bodily form.... another way of saying this is to manifest.

So then, to "re" -incarnate, is to do it again. The body falls and the spirit returns to God from where it first came.... and then as before-- the spirit leaves and incarnates again. The spirit, not the body-- is born again. This is scriptural. Jesus said-- You MUST be born again.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

People constantly misunderstand. I don't think it's intentional, rather it's a result of having fallen victim to bad teaching which is perpetuated from those teachers themselves having received bad teaching from those before them. Over time it becomes -traditional. Orthodox.

And it remains a teaching as it began-- wrong.

The concept of reincarnation unfortunately, -because of all this, has taken on a negative connotation. Most think of it in terms of the Hindu concept where one comes back in a succession of forms-- lower animal and so forth. Maybe as a blade of grass if you had been unkind, or if you had led a good life previously-- maybe a grasshopper, rather than plain grass. It's contained within the concept of karma. -You get what you deserve-

Incidentally, at it's base form, this is not entirely unlike the scriptural idea of justice.

But that is not what reincarnation is.

Comment....

I certainly do not believe in reincarnation by any stretch but have often though that just perhaps those
aborted babies may have been given another chance in a new mother... especially if they had an important work to do in this world.

NO I am not dogmatic about that idea... just musing.

 

[Ziggy]

Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Num 16:22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Num 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Zec 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Heb 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The question is: Were we alive in heaven before we were born?
And in my opinion the answer is yes and no.

The we, identified as an individual with self knowledge and a distinct identity, I don't believe that that "person" existed before birth.

The Life which God infused into the body of flesh that was created to house His Spirit, becomes the individual with self knowledge and a distinct identity as God sees fit to mold it.

We do not have eternal life in and of our own selves. Life is a gift from God alone. And Life comes from His Spirit.

So in the abstract, The very life force that makes us alive and who we are came from God.
So one could say that our very origen proceeded from God and returns to God alone.


It's not about the person, or the individual, or the identity of a seperate life force apart from God being sent into a badoy made of flesh.
But His Spirit which is life is how we have our being.
Jesus knew this. He knew thathis Spirit was not his own. And that the Father had given him a commandment that the very life force within him which came from The Father, he had permission to lay it down and take it up again.

And so Jesus says to all, take up you cross and follow me. Have faith and doubt not. Leave your own person, identity, individualism behind and let it die, and walk in my life, which is the same life the God gave to him.

The kingdom of God is within us.
The Kingdom of God is the very Spirit of God IN US.

The very same Spirit that was in Jesus.
I believe we have always had this very same Spirit, but we turned away and chose to walk in our own spirit, ego, identity, person, individual.
Jesus came to wake us up and to turn us around and seek the Kingdom of God which is God's Spirit in us.

We have always been with God. But not as who we know ourselves to be, but how God saw what we shall be.
And on the moment of conception God had a plan that the very Spirit he would unite with your body which came from him, would become whatever or whoever it would manifest into.

1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And I understand the looking forward of what we shall be after we have done our time here.
But if you look behind, you will also see the same truth regarding conception.

You have the seed and you have the egg. Once the seed joins with the egg the seed itself dies to itself and becomes one with the egg.
Now there is neither seed nor egg as individual and separate of them selves, but the two become one.
And no one knows what that child will look like , act like, behave like, sound like, until it is born.

But God knows. Because he is the life which gives the seed and the egg the power and the mechanism in which to create that one individual.
We are not the seed, and we are not the egg. We are the combination of 3.
so cool...

1Jo 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The earth is the flesh body that is formed by the combination of the water and the blood, but this body would not have life if it did not have Spirit. And this Spirit originated with God, lives it's life through us, and then returns to God when it's purpose for being here is done.

My dad keeps asking me, why am I still here? I tell him, because God still needs you here, but when it's time, he'll bring you home.
And no one knows what time that is but God himself.
Mat 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Back up:
Mat 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Heaven and earth... Mind and body.
When someone passes away, they no longer have capacity of the mind or the body, they are dead.
This life, this seed that we are that God planted on this earth, now gets buried in the earth, same as the seed in the egg.
And then comes the resurrection from the dead, or the conception into life.
And Paul says, it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know when we see him we shall be like him.

The first time God came to earth as a man. The first time we have life is as child in human form.
The second time God comes to earth we shall see him as he is, even as we ourselves shall be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

This incorruption is the very life force of God in which we had our origen. Not as an individual, but as it were a breath of God.

There is one caveat. Or that which turns the key to go from this life to the next life, from corruption to incorruption and that is our acknowledgment of God himself from which our life came from, and our belief and faith that we will return to the one that gave it.

If we don't acknowledge God in this life time, that is to say, if we deny the very existence from which we come from, our reply will be, I never knew you.
What is iniquity? It is sin? What is sin? It is the transgression of the law? What is the first commandment and greatest of them all?

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy mind and all thy soul and all thy might.

This one commandment is the very key to the Kingdom of God himself.

This is the key to life.
The key to death is to deny God and to hate your neighbor in your heart without a cause.

Mat 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The choice is yours. One key leads to God, the other leads to separation from God forever.

What is it to bind and to loose?
Either you believe God in your mind (heaven) and on the earth (body) and recieve the key to the Kingdom.
Or you reject God in your mind (heaven) and on the earth (in the body) and recieve the key to eternal damnation.

Deu 11:18
Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.

What is between your eyes?
Your mind.

What does the hand represent?
Your body.

Heaven and earth.

Hugs

 

[Mr E]

How would you know if you've been here before?

If there was such a thing as 'a past life' --how would you know, given that one's "consciousness" is new when one is born and because of this it would bear no trace to any life that might have been previously lived. It would only know of this life that had just begun.

 

[Ziggy]

How would you know if you've been here before?

If there was such a thing as 'a past life' --how would you know, given that one's "consciousness" is new when one is born and because of this it would bear no trace to any life that might have been previously lived. It would only know of this life that had just begun.

Jer 6:16
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Isa 42:16
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

Mic 4:2
And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Luk 3:4
As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Heb 12:13
And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

So either you know your in the lake of fire or you don't.
Either your conscience remains intact to give account of oneself on judgment day or it doesn't.

When you die does your conscience go with you?

I can't find that particular wording in the bible.
However,

2Co 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

How can you give God a testimony if you have no recollection or memory?

Is this testimony a seal? Is your conscience sealed?

Mat 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Rom 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

When is the day of judgment? Is it a day for a particular person or do we all share the same day of reckoning?

so many questions...

Hugs

 

[TLHKAJ]

Comment....

I certainly do not believe in reincarnation by any stretch but have often though that just perhaps those
aborted babies may have been given another chance in a new mother... especially if they had an important work to do in this world.

NO I am not dogmatic about that idea... just musing.

The Lord showed me one of my (forced late term) aborted babies in heaven with Him. I was briefly allowed to hold him ....his name is Isaac.

 

[The Learner]

Your assumptions, which are not scripturally proven, lead in a dangerous direction. If we were with God before birth, where is our beginning?

"An explicit statement of the doctrine of the preexistence of the soul is found in the Apocrypha: "All souls are prepared before the foundation of the world" (Slavonic Book of Enoch, xxiii. 5); and according to II Esd. iv. 35 et seq. the number of the righteous who are to come into the world is foreordained from the beginning. All souls are, therefore, preexistent, although the number of those which are to become incorporated is not determined at the very first. As a matter of fact, there are souls of different quality. Solomon says (Wisdom viii. 19 et seq., R. V.): "Now I was a child of parts, and a good soul fell to my lot; nay, rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled." The body returns to earth when its possessor "is required to render back the soul which was lent him" (ib. xv. 8, R. V.). The Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch xxx. 2-3 (Kautzsch, "Apokryphen," ii. 423) distinguishes between righteous and common souls in the following passage, which describes the Messianic period and which is characteristic of the concept of preexistence: "The storehouses in which the foreordained number of souls is kept shall be opened, and the souls shall go forth, and the many souls shall appear all at once, as a host with one mind. And the first shall rejoice, and the last shall not be sad.""SOUL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[The Learner]

That makes sense. It doesnt answer the question but it sounds like it could.

Is this a Budda belief?

Job is old testament.

 

[The Learner]

Sorry I couldn't resist. So what you are saying is that this is a mormon teaching?

I am not presenting a mormon teaching. I was merely wondering how it could be true that Jesus knew us before we were in the womb. Sorry if it sounds moemon and upsets you. But it aint my fault it "sounds" mormon.

I'm not even asking you (or anyone) to believe it. If I can't remember, then it's the same as I dont know for sure. I asked a question for other views and a coupe acts sorta like they want to argue about it. Why are you and the girl so hung up about mormons? I said I'm not mormon.

Ya gotta admit though. This is a much better thread than arguing about all the Trans & gay things that they're trying to force on Christians now. Them threads get old!

Sounds only LDS on pre-existence. Nothing else, I am not upset.

 

[The Learner]

I don't believe we have a conscience until after we are born. But life itself, that spark that begins the ball rolling in the womb, that is what comes from God.
The beginning of creation. God said, Let there be light.. that "light" is the very essence of life which ....
Jhn 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Conscience is about knowing. It's a mind thing. And I don't believe we have a mind until we have a brain to contain the mind.
I'm thinking about the very ignition of conception. The very first step is the fertilization process.

One of these days I'm going to study to become a doctor of everything lol.

I believe life begins at the moment of conception. Otherwise the stages of the embryo, the dividing of the cells, the creation of the very fetus couldn't happen. It needs gas to make the car run, or in today's world, electricity. I still have a gas powered car and always will unless they stop producing gas... anyways..

That electricity, the gas, the light, is added to the form being created.
Cells have life. But where does the life in the cell come from?

How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory.

The Origin and Evolution of Cells - The Cell - NCBI Bookshelf

It's too technical for me, lol and it's from the NIH so, ... nevermind.
I'll stick with the declaration that they cannot reproduce the life in a cell in a laboratory.
Which means it came from somewhere but they don't know where and can't replicate it.

The God particle... AKA Higgs Boson..physics is outside my pay grade and my 6th grade education.
It’s 10 years to the day since evidence of the Higgs boson – the elusive particle associated with an invisible mass-giving field – was announced.

Cern gears up for more discoveries 10 years after ‘God particle’ find

With the Higgs boson already in the bag, the Large Hadron Collider begins another period of data collection

www.theguardian.com

They found dark matter, but they should be looking for light matter, lol
Leave it to CERN to try and crack the code.
Anyone who uses the symbol of Chaos as their image, leaves me wondering if you don't get what you ask for.

View attachment 41850


So getting back to conscience..
conscience, a personal sense of the moral content of one's own conduct, intentions, or character with regard to a feeling of obligation to do right or be good.

So it comes back to the individual perception of ones self. And I don't believe we have an identity of self knowledge before we are born.
I believe God knows who we will be, but we ourselves at the time of conception are simply his life force forming within the mass we call flesh. And as the mind or brain develops we aquire a self awareness that is seperate and individual from that initial spark of life.

It's complicated LOL

Hugs

that dude would make a great pitcher.

 

[Ziggy]

"The storehouses in which the foreordained number of souls is kept shall be opened, and the souls shall go forth, and the many souls shall appear all at once, as a host with one mind. And the first shall rejoice, and the last shall not be sad.

There are a few scriptures both old and new that talk about dead bones. And they will be unearthed for all to see.

Made me think of all the books in the bible that were kept hid from the unlearned.
Like not allowing the laity to read the bible for themselves, everything from all the prophets became exposed to the world.
Dead men walking. As trees even.
The printing press.

Hugs

 

[MA2444]

Sounds only LDS on pre-existence. Nothing else, I am not upset.

So am I supposed to believe all the LDS stuff now since I said something that sounds like them. I'm not familiar with what they believe. I dont pay much attention to denominations. I'm not sure where I would fit in as.

 

[MA2444]

I think we don't know a lot of things. When does memory begin?
Then there is your DNA which contains memory of your family tree. Medical, genetics, heritage.. history in your blood.

I believe this is true. I believe our DNA has the entire record of our ancestry all the way back to Abraham or Noah.

God did say He would multiply Abraham's children to be more than the sands of the sea?
(I can hear Maury right now...Abraham, You Are The Father!!)

Who's walking around with King David genes in them? Jesus had a blood line of people. SOmeone could be directly related to Him and not even know it.