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Featured Wet Paint Principle (Freedom)

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    They go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

    Last time I checked, "Thou shalt not bear false witness" was one of the ten.
     
  2. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Look I'm not denying that Adams sin affected mankind, that all born of Adam are born in iniquity etc etc. But you missed something I said in the first post. Christ died from the foundation of the world, as we read in revelation, as well as...
    KJV 1 John 2
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    That includes Adams sin, Cain's sin, even Hitler's sin... As well as yours and mine. And He died before we were born. So we're we born condemned? If so, then what did Christ's death accomplish?
     
  3. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    What about the following...
    KJV 2 Corinthians 5
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    KJV 1 Timothy 4
    10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
    Now we will return to the text which speaks most clearly of the damage Adam did to the human race--Romans 5:18. This time we must read all of the verse. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." How many were condemned automatically because of Adam's sin? All men. What about those who have never even heard of Adam and who have never heard of the Biblical record of creation and the fall?
    Right in one verse we have the complete picture. Not only were all men affected by Adam's sin, but all men were affected by Christ's life and death. The same "all men" who were doomed by Adam's sin were freed from automatic condemnation by Christ's righteousness. To put it simply, what Adam did to the human race, Christ undid for the same human race. But what about those who have never heard of Christ and the Biblical record of the atonement? Do they still receive the free gift? All men--the human race--were given a second chance by Christ's life and death. Irrespective of knowledge or choice, every human being was affected by Christ's atonement.

    Now, when did that happen?
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    No, you are preaching Universalism, which is refuted by Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46.

    The free gift came upon all men unto justification of life; but you need to realize that it is a gift; and that a gift by nature must be received.

    Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    It accomplished forgiveness for all those who will put their trust in what Christ did for them on the Cross; receiving the gift of eternal life through faith.

    Rom 5:1, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Rom 5:2, By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
     
  5. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    You are ignoring what I am presenting. And jumping to conclusions. I did not say anything about personal salvation... Personal justification. I am talking about the nature of man at birth and the definition of sin. The Bible says Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. Never mind presenting verses speaking about justification for the individual after repentance. That's another topic altogether.
    The whole race had been cut off from heaven and separated from God by the sin of Adam, but Jesus restored the same human race to favor with God. All men are brought again into connection with God. Clearly we are not born separated from God, as is claimed by those who believe we are born lost and condemned. Because of Adam's sin, we suffer' under many of the curses of sin, one of which is inheriting a fallen nature, but this in itself does not constitute separation, condemnation, or lostness. Because Jesus Himself was born with the same nature as we have... Yet without separation, condemnation or lostness... Why? Because He never sinned.
    Corporate condemnation through Adam is cancelled by corporate acquittal through Christ. This does not mean personal salvation is guaranteed... It is not universalism. We still must make our choices whom we are to serve. Sin is a choice... Not a birthright.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    If what you are saying is true, what do we need to even repent of? We are in favour with God from birth; and that would mean that we are without sin from birth. No need for repentance then.

    Jesus was made "in the likeness of" sinful flesh.

    He did not and does not have sin dwelling in Him...we do.
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    We have all sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord (Romans 3:23) and our sin separates us from Him (Isaiah 59:1-2).
     
  8. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    @justbyfaith You need to differentiate between sinning, and sin. The act of sinning, and the sin nature. We stand condemned not because we have a sinful nature, but because as you quoted above, "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". You will not a find a verse anywhere that says we are lost because we are born with a nature that tends to sin.
    Of course we are in favour with God...if by that you mean He loves us...but we transgress anyway don't we? We sin. Thus we need to repent. Just because God favours us (whatever you mean by that) is a huge leap to being without sin. And what do you mean, "without sin"? We have a sin nature, a fallen corrupt nature...carnal, fleshly, apt to sin and having the propensity to sin constantly which we have to war against to overcome yes? But do we actually sin from birth? Does it mean someone born into a family of thieves is a thief? Sure, the likelihood of his becoming a thief at some stage is exponentially more likely than if he was born into a family of Buddhist monks for example, but he is not going to be condemned for thievery until he actually steals something.
    Put it this way. Adam and Eve were warned that if they disobeyed, that day, they would die. Why didn't they die that day? Because Jesus stepped in and said, I will take their sin upon Myself and be a propitiation for them. Thus He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The moment the human race stood condemned, Jesus changed that whole paradigm. Think about the verse you quoted in the beginning to support your entire case for birth-Adam inherited-condemnation.
    Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;...but if that be true, and indeed it most assuredly is, then must not the rest of that very same verse be equally true????
    even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    Think upon this also....Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son...When did this reconciliation take place? At Calvary, or in the Garden?
    Think also in that context on the several other verse in the same section of Romans 5 dealing with the same topic...the contrast between what we inherited from Adam, and what we receive from the second Adam....
    15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
    20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
    21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    If Christ had not stepped in to intercede in the garden, Adam and Eve would have died, and the entire human race with them. That corporate condemnation was set aside by Christ, in order to give all men a second chance...a deferment of the sentence of death to give mankind the opportunity to choose whom they should serve. Christ, or Satan.
    This does not remove the need for repentance, but the opposite, it gave us the opportunity for repentance.
     
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    They did. spiritually. For death means separation, they were separated that very day from fellowship with God.

    A gift by definition must be received. So then, while the free gift is offered to all men, those who don't receive it are under condemnation according to that verse. Otherwise, you have Universalism.

    At Calvary; for that is where Jesus died. Isn't that what the verse says?

    Which garden?

    The garden of Eden? or the garden of Gethsemane?

    If Eden, then no, Christ did not intercede in that garden; and Adam and Eve did die (spiritually) and the entire human race with them.

    If Gethsemane, then I refer you to John 17.
     
  10. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    See last comment in this post...
    not quite. The human race was given probation, an opportunity to choose a Saviour... This the condemnation that feel upon them due to Adams sin was agreed by grace.Time.. Right at the beginning... to repent and form characters acceptable to God. Should they refuse to do this, they take the condemnation back upon themselves and die second death.

    KJV Revelation 13
    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    Whatever Jesus did in the garden of Eden it was as powerful as what He did at Calvary.

    If Christ did not intercede in the garden of Eden, and sin causes separation from God, then what is going on here...
    KJV Genesis 3
    9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?...
    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
    Right there , in the garden of Eden,is the gospel.
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    This is not the way to salvation.

    The way in is through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ; and He will form in us character that is acceptable to the Lord. He catches the fish, and then He cleans them.

    Yes, it was preached to them. Was it mixed with faith in them that heard it?

    If it was, then the separation was reconciled. But if not, the separation remained (Isaiah 59:1-2).

    Also, for the avid Bible student, Genesis 3:10-14 (the missing verses) should prove to be interesting.
     
  12. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I would say we were NOT born condemned. We were born dead because our parents were dead as all of our natural carnal parents have been dead in the eyes of God. Dead parent give birth to dead children. Jesus came to bring a change, to bring Life:

    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

    He did bring Life and he explains here how to take hold of it:

    "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25

    In addition to bringing Life so that our belief would allow us to access he died and thereby opened the closed Way/Gate/Door into the Tree of Life. [Jesus is Wisdom which is the Tree of Life... Prov 3:13 & 3:18] He made a Way where there was no way. When we are able to eat of his flesh and drink his blood then are we also able to be resurrected from the death into which we were born into the Life which He is.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
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  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    ****bump****
     
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