WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

[Spiritual Israelite]

Keep our faith as strong as possible,

"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

And there will be saved people there at that time.

Good answer. That lines up with what Paul and Peter wrote about being prepared.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

 

[JLB]

So you say Jesus comes back THREE times?

I only see one.

Let's try your verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Those who are dead when Jesus returns will be caught up first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first.


17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Then those who are living will be caught up together with those that had died and will meet Jesus.


Again, the above speaks of the gathering of everyone at the end.
One coming of the Lord.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

Nice that you listed some verses.

How about posting scripture instead?

Constantly posting one’s opinion and then tagging their opinion with a scripture reference without posting actual scripture is the mark of a false teacher.


It’s how they lure vulnerable spiritual babes into false doctrine.

 

[marks]

Keep our faith as strong as possible,

Good answer! Then we're ready for anything.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Constantly posting one’s opinion and then tagging their opinion with a scripture reference without posting actual scripture is the mark of a false teacher.


It’s how they lure vulnerable spiritual babes into false doctrine.

Agree. They know that the scriptural text within the verses they are referencing does not support their claims, so that's why they don't show the text.

 

[GodsGrace]

One may ask are the Saints under attack nowadays and by whom ?
Socialist clearly have gods that they idolise ! it's called the works of Man !

A fool mate demanded to me that he will believe in Jesus when he sees him in the flesh ! well well Bible says about people who have not seen but believed are more worthy than they who seen him in the flesh !

I have such a friend.
I keep telling him and his wife that IT WILL BE TOO LATE then.

Why be surprised RB?
There are persons on this very thread who claim to be Christian and do not believe Jesus is God.

I often wonder if they are such as my friend.
or let's say "in the same boat".

Only God an know but we are told not to refuse HIS SON.

Now no one truly knew Jesus was 100% the Christ untill he went to Heaven in fact ! but for some people who had great faith that he was, but Jesus said to Peter that he would denigh him 3 times before the cock crowed. so even Peter was not 100% ?

Now Nathaniel knew who Jesus was because he was worthy of Israel for a fact !
as Jesus said of him ! and also said what Nathaniel would see ! now that's a Key point ! that every one should understand, why Nathaniel would see in fact ! it's fantastic !

Salvation ? will come at the end of this world ? for this world is full of deceptions and delusions !

The Saints will overcome this world ! or is it that they may ?

If people are seeking a person to rule over and dominate over everyone ? I can not see such being worthy of Salvation of Souls at all ! for such has to be won in the Holy Spirit !
It's the Holy spirit that is Christ Jesus ! as the two are as one ! that's why Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omga ! and is Emmanuel, God with us !

He is Emmanuel because we who abide in him have him within, that's who is called the Body of Christ Jesus as he is the Head their of ! the ones who are clearly Born again !

 

[GodsGrace]

He never does that. He thinks that just listing some chapters and verses without showing the text and making vague claims is enough to prove that his doctrine is true. He has never made a coherent argument using scripture to back up his claims and I don't believe he ever will.

Agreed.
If what we state cannot be backed up with scripture - then it is just someone's opinion.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Nobody cares about he said she said…


Let’s examine scripture.

Let’s examine what Jesus taught His apostles.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord.


Do you believe the Second Coming of Christ is before the tribulation or after?

My opinion on the second coming is before and after ? why well Jesus came to me personaly in the Holy Spirit and at that point I knew him ! But in regards all who are not Saved, they will be Saved after the Hellfire ! who survive such.

So the Second Coming has to be that one Knows Jesus is 100% the Christ and abides in him as he in you ! regardless before the Hellfire that will come, only because Man has rejected Christ Jesus !

People who clearly work towards the Hellfire, as I know many so called Christians do in fact seek the Hellfire ! for they feel it's their duty ! and the big deal for them, is that they will excape the Hellfire ? So they claim ! but I am sure that they will go to Hell for they are clearly doing the workings of the Devil and clearly not worthy at all of Christ Jesus ! for we do not wish evil on anyone, Just as Jesus proved ! but who set him up ? and who looked on, for they knew not what they do ? but for some who clearly did know for they set him up.

People of Malice are clearly not worthy of Christ Jesus !

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nobody cares about he said she said…


Let’s examine scripture.

Let’s examine what Jesus taught His apostles.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord.


Do you believe the Second Coming of Christ is before the tribulation or after?

Rev 14:14
A gathering DURING THE TRIB AND BEFORE YOUR SUPPOSED RAPTURE AFTER THE GT.

So, you have the dead in Christ, of 1 thes 4 , PRECEDED BY THE LIVING.

Because your doctrine is not complete, you can not claim any high ground.
You are operating off of supposition.
No postribber can unpack rev 14:14, nor the virgin parable.
No postribber has ever acknowledged the 2 comings of mat 24 , nor have they ever unpacked the "one taken, one left"

Ask one of them to unpack those pretrib rapture verses.
It is appalling what the do do God's word.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, but He was literally at the physical temple when He was speaking in Matthew 24:1-2. The context of John 2:19-22 is completely different from the context of Matthew 24:1-2. That is obvious. Yet, you still can't see it.

Yes Jesus was at the temple in John 2:13-22

 

[rebuilder 454]

Keep our faith as strong as possible,

"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

And there will be saved people there at that time.

Yes indeed.
Those saved people either take the mark or die.

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

The following is COMPLETELY MISSING from postrib rapture doctrine;
Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Ask one of them to "translate" it.
Watch what they do to it.

Gods word is not some mistranslation, with the pretrib rapture verses forbidden to be placed on the table.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Amen.

Lol
He left out the verses of the other comings!

Typical.

 

[marks]

Rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

This is a very important point in understanding who these saints are. We have to consider that Jesus taught that not even death would overcome the church He would build. Yet these saints would be overcome.

The answer is of course in Daniel 12, "until he shall have shattered the strength of the holy people". These holy people are Daniel's people, in keeping with his prophecy. These are not Christian, whom nothing will overcome.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes Jesus was at the temple in John 2:13-22

I didn't say He wasn't. But, it was a different day and time and context than what is recorded in Matthew 24:1-2 (Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:6-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is a very important point in understanding who these saints are. We have to consider that Jesus taught that not even death would overcome the church He would build. Yet these saints would be overcome.

It's talking about them being overcome physically by being physically persecuted and killed, not spiritually. Continue reading in Revelation 13 and you can see that the context of the beast making war with the saints is in relation to physical death. The second beast helps the first beast make war with the saints to physically overcome them.

Revelation 13:15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Those who are saints during the New Testament time period are in the church, so the saints in Revelation 13:7 are the church.

Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [a]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Philemon 1:4 I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers, 5 hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints,

 

[marks]

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A comment on this passage . . .

"these are they who came out of great tribulation"

When you survey John's writings in particular concerning his usage of "ek" (out of) and "apo" (away from), you find that he frequently swapped them, using "ek" when he was saying away from, and "apo" when he was saying out of.

An example is where Luke correctly wrote, quoting Jesus, "and if I be lifted up away from (apo) the earth, I will draw all men to myself", "lifted up" being an idiom for being crucified. John quotes the same saying from Jesus except he wrote, "be lifted up out of (ek) the earth". The correct word would be apo, not ek, as Jesus was not in the earth, and then came out of it to be lifted up.

So then it's entirely possible that this is intended to express that these came away from great tribulation. Not that they were in it, and came out, rather, they were near to it, and came away from it. Revelation 3:10 would support this idea, that some would be "kept out of the hour of testing that would come upon the earth". Not being present during the time of testing means being removed from the world.

Much love!

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A comment on this passage . . .

"these are they who came out of great tribulation"

When you survey John's writings in particular concerning his usage of "ek" (out of) and "apo" (away from), you find that he frequently swapped them, using "ek" when he was saying away from, and "apo" when he was saying out of.

An example is where Luke correctly wrote, quoting Jesus, "and if I be lifted up away from (apo) the earth, I will draw all men to myself", "lifted up" being an idiom for being crucified. John quotes the same saying from Jesus except he wrote, "be lifted up out of (ek) the earth". The correct word would be apo, not ek, as Jesus was not in the earth, and then came out of it to be lifted up.

So then it's entirely possible that this is intended to express that these came away from great tribulation. Not that they were in it, and came out, rather, they were near to it, and came away from it. Revelation 3:10 would support this idea, that some would be "kept out of the hour of testing that would come upon the earth". Not being present during the time of testing means being removed from the world.

I completely disagree. The phrase "tereo ek" (kept from) used in Revelation 3:10 is only used in one other verse in scripture.

John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

In this verse the phrase "tereo ek" is not referring to be taken off of the earth, but rather to being kept/protected from evil while on the earth. That is how it should be understood in Revelation 3:10 as well.

And Revelation 7:14 is talking about people who experienced great tribulation but came out of it (no longer experienced it) when they died and their souls went to heaven.

Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ” Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

When a believer dies in the Lord after experiencing great tribulation, they then "may rest from their labors". And all believers experience great tribulation, according to scripture.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes true but I was in that same boat for years listening to preachers and then came the left behind books and I thought that I had it all figured out.

What changed for me was the Hank Hanagraph book the apocalypse code and Hank said that the code to the book of revelation is the other books of the bible.

I then was challenged by a Christian Jew to forget all that I was ever taught or heard and actually study what the bible actually said for myself. She showed me the Old Testament symbolic Jewish meaning of what I used to think were literal events in the New Testament and it was like blinders came off of my eyes and I saw the true meaning of the book of revelation

God honoured my own biblical investigation so let’s pray that these others will really want to seek the truth and not just prove their theory. Maybe they are just not there yet and on their own private journey to truth

Majority of the ECF seemed to hold to historical premil position

 

[covenantee]

Yes Jesus was at the temple in John 2:13-22

In John 2:19-22, Jesus predicts what would occur at His Resurrection.
The literal temple of His Body would rise from the dead.
And It did.
Nothing whatever to do with 70 AD.

In Matthew 24:1-2, Jesus predicts what would occur in 70 AD.
The literal stones of the temple buildings would be thrown down.
And they were.
Nothing whatever to do with His Resurrection.

Any attempt to associate the two is simply gnostic nonsense.

 

[Truth7t7]

I didn't say He wasn't. But, it was a different day and time and context than what is recorded in Matthew 24:1-2 (Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:6-7).

Same context, a literal temple of stone in Jerusalem, representing the Lord's body that was destroyed