What did Jesus die to save us from?

[St. SteVen]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

 

[Patrick1966]

What did Jesus die to save us from?

From God's eternal anger and torture. One who doesn't accept God's loving gift of salvation through Christ will be placed into a cauldron of boiling lava to be mercilessly BURNED ALIVE forever and ever and ever! Amen! Praise the Lord!

 

[quietthinker]

What did Jesus die to save us from?​

A misconception of God's character.

 

[quietthinker]

From God's eternal anger and torture. One who doesn't accept God's loving gift of salvation through Christ will be placed into a cauldron of boiling lava to be mercilessly BURNED ALIVE forever and ever and ever! Amen! Praise the Lord!

This is precisely the view of God which Jesus came to save us from.

 

[quietthinker]

The meaning of the expression 'paradigm shift' is underestimated/ misunderstood/ dismissed.
The term 'born again' is precisely a paradigm shift. It primarily means one cannot arrive at any meaningful conclusions by employing the natural principles of man which are based on denial and the perpetration of violence as a solution.

Man has the audacity to determine God's approach by superimposing his own values onto God......even in the face of God's condescension so that we get it. We kill him for his efforts as we do his Prophets.

 

[St. SteVen]

What did Jesus die to save us from?​

A misconception of God's character.

How so?

Oh, wait... - LOL

Are you saying Jesus died to save us from a misconception of God's character?

How so?

 

[St. SteVen]

This is precisely the view of God which Jesus came to save us from.

That's very interesting, but how would you support such a statement?

 

[St. SteVen]

The meaning of the expression 'paradigm shift' is underestimated/ misunderstood/ dismissed.
The term 'born again' is precisely a paradigm shift. It primarily means one cannot arrive at any meaningful conclusions by employing the natural principles of man which are based on denial and the perpetration of violence as a solution.

Man has the audacity to determine God's approach by superimposing his own values onto God......even in the face of God's condescension so that we get it. We kill him for his efforts as we do his Prophets.

Okay, I'm starting to get the picture here. Interesting. Tell us more.

 

[quietthinker]

That's very interesting, but how would you support such a statement?

take a look at the God Man with fresh eyes.

 

[quietthinker]

Okay, I'm starting to get the picture here. Interesting. Tell us more.

Much to say ....and specific questions need asking. If there is an interest, check out the podcast link in my signature below.

 

[St. SteVen]

Much to say ....and specific questions need asking. If there is an interest, check out the podcast link in my signature below.

Is that a quote from Ellen G. White?

What men want is a method of forgetting God that shall pass as a method of remembering him' EGW

 

[quietthinker]

Okay, I'm starting to get the picture here. Interesting. Tell us more.

Man's view that God is as an Uber Pharaoh, a reality that overtly operates by tit for tat. This view has informed a faulty picture of God, subsequently robbing man of any real security......particularly in the religious arena.

God's efforts to correct this view have also been doggedly dragged through the same faulty assumptions further reinforcing man's insecurity.....pitting man against man let alone peace with God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

You sound very much like me. I was raised in the church, and expected to "tow the line." When I made visit to the pastor to ask questions, he handed me a book that gave no answer. When others in my family asked the pastor questions, again nothing but diversion. Pastors do not like doctrinal arguments! They want to keep sheep in the fold and getting along. The best way appears to them to be escape!

So I continue to ask questions because I need to know. If the leadership doesn't know the answer I need to take responsibility--I have access to study materials, to the history of asking such questions.

Here is how I view Jesus' death for our sins. We have a corrupted spirit, and thus a defective soul. We are wayward and tend to rebel against the authority of God's word. That defines sin, to rebel against God's word to our hearts, to turn away from the love that He convicts us with.

Jesus died to show God's suffering every time we turn away from His love. It is a demonstration that God is patient with us and is willing to forgive us, contingent upon our acceptance of the remedy for this. Without the remedy, we cannot remain in fellowship with God forever.

We must take the remedy, which is conversion to Christ and to his spiritual way of life. Even if we can't completely live up to this, accepting it in sincerity and then demonstrating that choice as a real choice is enough to get through the pearly gates.

We are delivered, when we receive his Spirit, from human selfishness, the desire to live independent of God's Spirit. We may even choose sometimes to follow God's Spirit and at other times to not follow His Spirit. The important thing is to choose the path that represents the sacrifice of our self-autonomy for walking with Him as Lord.

When we choose this, we are delivered from the way of the flesh, which leads to trouble and in the end to eternal separation from God. We are indeed delivered from the wrath of God, which is directed against all sin, but in particular against the sin of rejecting Him as Lord and the source of love.

 

[quietthinker]

Is that a quote from Ellen G. White?

What men want is a method of forgetting God that shall pass as a method of remembering him' EGW

it is.

 

[St. SteVen]

it is.

Are you SDA, or did you just like the quote?
I won't discount you if you are, just want to know.
Don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable. Thanks.
Or feel free to PM me if you want.

 

[quietthinker]

Are you SDA, or did you just like the quote?
I won't discount you if you are, just want to know.
Don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable. Thanks.
Or feel free to PM me if you want.

lol, no I'm not uncomfortable SteVen and it's good to answer in a public forum ....and I'm not SDA, however that said, I do believe in the return of Jesus aka the second advent and I do consider all Ten Commandments worthy of our attention, consideration and practice....sooooo, what does that make me? I s'pose folk will hang some label on me!

I thought the quote from Ellen White is pertinent and gives room for reflection. I figured it was a good reason to quote it.
By the way, have you read her?

 

[ButterflyJones]

This is precisely the view of God which Jesus came to save us from.

Their reply is why it is never wise to allow angry atheists access to Christian discussions boards.

Sadly, there are many here. And obvious POE's too.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes. More pointless ramblings and speculations by one who calls himself "St SteVen".

Not pointless at all. In fact, these question/s is/are at the very heart of our attempts to join the dots well. Don't sincerely ask them and one maintains a shrunken view......even a distortion.

 

[quietthinker]

How so?

Oh, wait... - LOL

Are you saying Jesus died to save us from a misconception of God's character?

How so?

This question, What did Jesus die to save us from? forms part of a couplet. The other part is 'what is God really like?'......a question the whole Universe is curious about.

Everything God ever wanted he called into existence with a word so there was no way the created order could even tell if God was unselfish

Apparently Lucifer persuaded a goodly slab of the angels to side with his point that God was selfish. We read he played with the idea in the account of Job where Job was fundamentally self interested because he got protection from God.

The answer was Jesus, the omnipotent Creator divesting himself of divine privileges in his condescension by taking human form (making himself vulnerable) so that we could get our head around the question. .....Are our ears hearing?.....are our eyes seeing? (created intelligences in the Universe were surely watching)

Isaiah put it like this.....

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,.......'

Yeah, He allowed us to push him to the absolute limit. We and devils threw all our hate onto the innocent ....even to death, and he did not resist. His power revealed something the Universe had never before witnessed and in the process unmasked the pretender for who he really was. Jesus says, 'a murderer from the beginning'

Yes again, God is not a killer contrary to the many twisted opinions held. God is the life giver and life sustainer whose reality is Life and Love and Joy.
What greater lengths could God have possibly gone to than the incarnation and the attendant sojourn?

 

[gadar]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

You elucidate some good points. Scripture states that Jesus died to save us from our sins in order that humanity will be reconciled to God. According to evangelical teaching, that is not the goal as you pointed out that the vast majority of humanity will not be saved and consigned to the lake of fire. Thus by default, evangelicals believe that reconciliation is not God's stated goal in direct opposition to Col 1: 19-20. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.
The above declarative statement is all-encompassing and leaves no room for any caveats or exceptions. What our sovereign God wills, He is more than able to accomplish. God's mission statement rules out the evangelical notion of retributive justice carried out in the lake of fire where the unsaved are tormented forever for a finite lifetime of sins. Since the scriptures tell us in no uncertain terms that God is loving but also just, how are the requirements of God's love and justice meted out in the LOF where the unsaved end up?

The germane question is, is punishment the same thing as justice? We would both certainly agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened to her for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this example? I submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime must willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with the one whom he violated. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/child support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is, justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.

I believe this human scenario illustrates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and to fully bring about God's justice.

Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for their sins as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sins forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness of the retributive eternal punishment model of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course, they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example, it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20) which results in "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).

Reconciliation with God is impossible with the evangelical eternal conscious torment view of hell as well as with the other popular belief in annihilationism as in both of these views, those in the lake of fire are never reconciled to God in direct contradiction to the Colossians and Philippian passages.