What did Jesus die to save us from?

[Reggie Belafonte]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

To save us from ourselves !
As our Carnal self is lost ! and a abomination. that would rise up against Jesus as it did back in the day, this is not a Jew issue but a issue of Man.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Yes. More pointless ramblings and speculations by one who calls himself "St SteVen".

I think their screen name is sarcasm.

Stephen was an apostle who was martyred, having been stoned to death while the Pharisee,Saul (Paul) of Tarsus, who incited the crowd against him, held Stephens cloke .

"Stoned Stephen". I knew an atheist who use to smoke Mary Jane and then troll Christian forums.

Just a thought.

 

[St. SteVen]

I thought the quote from Ellen White is pertinent and gives room for reflection. I figured it was a good reason to quote it.
By the way, have you read her?

Yes, I remember reading the quote before, but just now recognized the initials.
Good quote actually. Thanks.

What men want is a method of forgetting God that shall pass as a method of remembering him' EGW

I was familiar because of another forum friend more than a decade ago that asked me an interesting question.
"Why are you only keeping nine of the Ten Commandments?"

Which began a long debate about Sabbatarianism and the law. He soon decided that I was his enemy.
I have read very little. Just enough to arm me for my antagonistic debate. Poor fellow. I was regrettably merciless.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, I remember reading the quote before, but just now recognized the initials.
Good quote actually. Thanks.

What men want is a method of forgetting God that shall pass as a method of remembering him' EGW

I was familiar because of another forum friend more than a decade ago that asked me an interesting question.
"Why are you only keeping nine of the Ten Commandments?"

Which began a long debate about Sabbatarianism and the law. He soon decided that I was his enemy.
I have read very little. Just enough to arm me for my antagonistic debate. Poor fellow. I was regrettably merciless.

I could recommend 'The Desire of Ages' It's on the life of Jesus. I think you can get it free electronically online

 

[Lambano]

From God's eternal anger and torture. One who doesn't accept God's loving gift of salvation through Christ will be placed into a cauldron of boiling lava to be mercilessly BURNED ALIVE forever and ever and ever! Amen! Praise the Lord!

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

You're bringing back memories. In my first sojourn into Christian discussion boards about 20 years ago, I met a guy who came to Jesus from a Buddhist perspective, and Atonement theory seemed terribly primitive to him, like those stereotypical cannibals who will sacrifice a virgin to appease the volcano gods. Interesting the perspectives you get from someone who didn't grow up in the Church. At the time I was shocked, because most Protestant churches make a huge deal about Christ dying for our sins. Isn't that what Christianity is all about? But it made me research Atonement theory (and I now have a better feel for the historical and social forces that shaped Protestant theology and why things are the way they are).

John used the word translated "propitiation" in 1 John 2:1-2, and that word certainly implies appeasing the wrath of the gods. But that makes the model for God the child abuser who says, "I was really, really mad at these kids down there, but after killing my own son, now I feel a lot better". Yeah. If a human father did that, we'd lock him up for life. There's something faintly blasphemous about that model.

There's lots of models for the Atonement, all of which have at least a foot in the Biblical narratives, none of which I find satisfactory: Ransom (Who got paid, Satan? Why does God negotiate with terrorists?), Moral Influence, Christus Victor (which I don't understand), Satisfaction (the offended medieval Baron model), Penal Substitution (how in the world can punishing an innocent man for the crimes of the guilty be considered in any sense, "justice"?), Governmental, and Scapegoat (which is more about social dynamics). All of these leave stuff hanging out of the suitcase.

I don't understand it all, but I guess I really don't have to. My working model is that Christ identified with us in our sinfulness and our death; we are to identify with Him in our lives and hopefully in His Resurrection. Double Identity. There's elements of Governmental, Moral Influence, and Penal Satisfaction that go into that synthesis. Works for me.

Which is a long way around the question, what does Christ save us from? The traditional answer, cribbed right from the Communion liturgy, is sin and death.

 

[Patrick1966]

It's sort of like this. Let's say that there a bunch of stray dogs on your large estate. You persuade as many of the dogs as possible to come to your loving embrace. But, some dogs refuse. So what would God do? What would you do? Obviously, the only sensible thing to do is to trap the remaining dogs and then hang them upside down and attach electrodes to them and torture them all day and all night - forever because that's what a loving person of God does.

 

[St. SteVen]

You're bringing back memories. In my first sojourn into Christian discussion boards about 20 years ago, I met a guy who came to Jesus from a Buddhist perspective, and Atonement theory seemed terribly primitive to him, like those stereotypical cannibals who will sacrifice a virgin to appease the volcano gods. Interesting the perspectives you get from someone who didn't grow up in the Church. At the time I was shocked, because most Protestant churches make a huge deal about Christ dying for our sins. Isn't that what Christianity is all about? But it made me research Atonement theory (and I now have a better feel for the historical and social forces that shaped Protestant theology and why things are the way they are).

John used the word translated "propitiation" in 1 John 2:1-2, and that word certainly implies appeasing the wrath of the gods. But that makes the model for God the child abuser who says, "I was really, really mad at these kids down there, but after killing my own son, now I feel a lot better". Yeah. If a human father did that, we'd lock him up for life. There's something faintly blasphemous about that model.

There's lots of models for the Atonement, all of which have at least a foot in the Biblical narratives, none of which I find satisfactory: Ransom (Who got paid, Satan? Why does God negotiate with terrorists?), Moral Influence, Christus Victor (which I don't understand), Satisfaction (the offended medieval Baron model), Penal Substitution (how in the world can punishing an innocent man for the crimes of the guilty be considered in any sense, "justice"?), Governmental, and Scapegoat (which is more about social dynamics). All of these leave stuff hanging out of the suitcase.

I don't understand it all, but I guess I really don't have to. My working model is that Christ identified with us in our sinfulness and our death; we are to identify with Him in our lives and hopefully in His Resurrection. Double Identity. There's elements of Governmental, Moral Influence, and Penal Satisfaction that go into that synthesis. Works for me.

Which is a long way around the question, what does Christ save us from? The traditional answer, cribbed right from the Communion liturgy, is sin and death.

Thanks for joining the discussion. Great post really.
Love your atonement analysis. - LOL

 

[Bob Estey]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

I believe Jesus died to save us from eternal torment by Satan. Satan would never stop tormenting us, because of our sin. When Satan had Jesus executed, he lost his credibility.

 

[St. SteVen]

I believe Jesus died to save us from eternal torment by Satan

That's an interesting view.
Seems like the common red tights and pitch fork view.
Is it biblical?

Satan would never stop tormenting us, because of our sin.

How come?
I thought Satan loved sin, and sinners. Maybe not, though.

When Satan had Jesus executed, he lost his credibility.

Probably long before that. I heard there was a pretty big mess up in the Garden.

 

[Bob Estey]

Probably long before that. I heard there was a pretty big mess up in the Garden.

Satan is pretty clever (Genesis 3:1). He's got a lot of people fooled, so much so that he rules the world (as the Bible teaches).

 

[Bob Estey]

How come?
I thought Satan loved sin, and sinners. Maybe not, though.

What gave you the idea Satan loves anyone?

 

[Bob Estey]

That's an interesting view.
Seems like the common red tights and pitch fork view.
Is it biblical?

Well, I think almost all Christians believe Jesus saved us from our sins. In other words, he saved us from the torment our sins bring on. And who do you suppose is behind that torment?

 

[St. SteVen]

What gave you the idea Satan loves anyone?

Yes, that's debatable.
But I suppose that sin and sinners are working toward his favor.
It wouldn't make sense to hate that, right?

 

[St. SteVen]

Well, I think almost all Christians believe Jesus saved us from our sins. In other words, he saved us from the torment our sins bring on. And who do you suppose is behind that torment?

Most Christians claim that the torment is the wrath of God against unbelievers.
A point that seems to be lost on you.

There may be hope for you yet. - LOL

 

[Bob Estey]

Yes, that's debatable.
But I suppose that sin and sinners are working toward his favor.
It wouldn't make sense to hate that, right?

It would seem to me what Satan wants from us is to be worshiped. When we sin, we give him ammunition to bring us to our knees.

 

[Bob Estey]

Most Christians claim that the torment is the wrath of God against unbelievers.
A point that seems to be lost on you.

There may be hope for you yet. - LOL

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son ..." Where is this wrath you speak of?

 

[St. SteVen]

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son ..." Where is this wrath you speak of?

I didn't say that I believe in that; I said, "Most Christians".

St. SteVen said:
Most Christians claim that the torment is the wrath of God against unbelievers.
A point that seems to be lost on you.

 

[Bob Estey]

I didn't say that I believe in that; I said, "Most Christians".

St. SteVen said:
Most Christians claim that the torment is the wrath of God against unbelievers.
A point that seems to be lost on you.

Well, some Christians.

 

[Enoch111]

Most Christians claim that the torment is the wrath of God against unbelievers.

It does not matter what "most" any group says about this. What does the Word of God say? And are you prepared to believe and accept what Scripture says? The final authority regarding all things spiritual is the written Word of God. Regardless of what people say, or think, or speculate.

 

[Johann]

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son ..." Where is this wrath you speak of?

For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: