what do you see wrong with this ?

[Ezra]

there is so much to grace that man cannot begin to fully understand. its better experienced than understood

 

[Stumpmaster]

there is so much to grace that man cannot begin to fully understand. its better experienced than understood

Correctomundo, Ezra. The experiencing of God's grace is desirable. The Galatians were foolish to fall from grace.
Gal 5:4
(4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.

Here's something to ruminate on... the more a person sins the more of God's grace they need to be reconciled to Him.

Col 1:19-23
(19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
(20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled
(22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
(23) If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Ezra]

Correctomundo, Ezra. The experiencing of God's grace is desirable

sorry but your Correctomundo i reject grace is something to experience. paul didnt understand fully when told my grace sufficient he accepted it ,but didnt fully understand it at that moment. we go through many hardships knowing his grace is sufficient. but not able to fully see the big picture. nice try but no cigar

 

[Renniks]

so all we have to do to be saved is just obey God commandments nothing else?

Obeying the commandments, if one could do it perfectly, would save no one. Anything not done from faith is sin. So you can do great good works sinfully.
The law never saved anyone.

 

[Stumpmaster]

sorry but your Correctomundo i reject grace is something to experience. paul didnt understand fully when told my grace sufficient he accepted it ,but didnt fully understand it at that moment. we go through many hardships knowing his grace is sufficient. but not able to fully see the big picture. nice try but no cigar

Let's not get off track here. Experiencing God's grace is indeed desirable, as Hebrews 13:9 teaches:
Heb 13:9
(9) Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

e that support

 

[Ezra]

Let's not get off track here. Experiencing God's grace is indeed desirable,

let me get you back on track at no time did i say God grace was not desirable . i said Grace is something we experience better than understand GRACE is a wonderful thing that has much more than just saving us., there has to be the one who takes a ant hill and turns it into a mountain .. so plz Correctomundo your self . i am more than on track just not yours

 

[Stumpmaster]

let me get you back on track at no time did i say God grace was not desirable . i said Grace is something we experience better than understand GRACE is a wonderful thing that has much more than just saving us., there has to be the one who takes a ant hill and turns it into a mountain .. so plz Correctomundo your self . i am more than on track just not yours

I simply agreed with your statement " there is so much to grace that man cannot begin to fully understand. its better experienced than understood", and emphasised the desirability of grace over law, in accordance with Scripture. Here's another verse that gives an example of why grace is desirable.

Act 20:32
(32) And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

 

[marks]

but a faith that is obedient to the will of God. And again, that obedience is necessary

In this part . . . first you say faith, then you say obedience.

The faith is described as "a faith that is obedient to the will of God", and then you say that "obedience is necessary". But if one has an obedient faith, isn't the necessity of obedience a moot point?

And so what is actually required is that "obedient faith" that you first said?

Much love!

 

[RogerDC]

We are justified by grace alone, through faith.

I would say grace is a result of justification. We are initially justified by accepting the gift of faith, which results in grace. James 2:24 says we are justified by faith and works - no mention of being justified by grace.

But... there's more to our salvation than just justification. True believers (who have been justified) also undergo sanctification - which does involve obedience to commandments.

First of all, sanctification is a process that begins with baptism, and there are at least two different forms of sanctification. There is (a) sanctification by baptism, as a result of the Cross (Heb 10:29); and there is (b) sanctification by works, which is achieved by leading a holy life of righteousness (Romans 6:19-22, 1Cor 6:11) - ie, keeping the commandments, which includes repentance.

The sanctification you refer to is sanctification by works, but I would say you have it the wrong way around - sanctification doesn’t come after justification; rather, it precedes justification, in fact, sanctification by works is how we are justified by works (James 2:24).
James says “a man is justified by works” - by “works” he simply means keeping the commandments (ie, sanctification by works). When James says “faith without works is dead” (2:26), he means a believer’s faith is useless unless it is accompanied by the “works” that is keeping the commandments (ie, sanctification by works).

Confusion arises because the word 'salvation' can be used to mean simply 'justification' or to cover the whole process.

Many Christians make the mistake of thinking that as soon as one is justified by faith, one is eternally saved. But this is a false and unscriptural doctrine - for starters it contradicts James 2:24 - “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”. Furthermore, justification can be lost due to committing “deadly” sins (1John 5:16) or losing one’s faith - in which case, the hope of salvation is then taken off the menu (although it can be regained through repentance).

Salvation is a process that doesn’t end until after we die - no one is “saved” in this life; we are saved only after we are judged, post-mortem, and granted eternal life by Christ, which is why salvation is described as a “hope” in at least fifteen verses in the NT. In 1Peter 1:17, believers are advised to conduct their lives “with fear”, because they will be judged according to their deeds on the Last Day.

 

[RogerDC]

John 6:28-29 KJV
[28] Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The words, “believe on him”, in the verse you quoted don’t simply refer to having faith in Christ - to “believe on him” also refers to obeying Christ (John 3:36), which entails keeping the many commandments described in the NT (which includes repentance). By keeping His commandments, we not only abide in Christ (1John 3:24), but we demonstrate our love for God (1John 5:3, John 14:15) and prove ourselves worthy of salvation (Rev 3:4).

James 2:24-26 says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” and “faith without works is dead” - by “works”, James means simply means keeping the commandments ... in other words, doing one’s best to keep the commandments is necessary for salvation.

 

[RogerDC]

Faith is unconditional.

I have no idea what you mean by that. But I do know that SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL. James 2:24 says "a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE". By "works", James means keeping the many commandments described in the NT, which includes repentance. These are CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION - so if you don't strive to repent and keep the commandments, you won't be saved.

There are many other verses that state/imply salvation is conditional.

 

[RogerDC]

so all we have to do to be saved is just obey God commandments nothing else?

That depends on what you mean by “God’s commandments”. Are we not commanded to have faith in Christ? And did I not quote James 2:24? … it says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” - ie, faith and works are necessary for salvation. Works alone are useless, and faith alone is useless - salvation requires both.

 

[RogerDC]

God grace conquers ANY sin

Sorry, but that sounds like unscriptural nonsense to me - nowhere in the Bible does it say God’s grace conquers any sin. On the contrary, Romans 6 says,

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can one who died to sin still live in it? ... Let not sin then reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness … the wages of sin is death."

1John 5:16 implies it is possible for believers to commit “deadly” sins, which are sins that can land a believer in Hell. So clearly, grace does not conquer these “deadly” sins.

Christ said it was finished; he paid the final payment for sin

So what does that mean? … no matter what sin a person commits, they are going to spend eternity in Heaven because Jesus’ death paid for their sins? If so, what about atheists, who sin by denying the existence of God, not to mention having no faith in Christ … will they be saved?

works follows salvation

That doesn’t make any sense - it means we are saved before we are justified. James 2:24 says a man is justified by faith and works, and one must be justified first in order to gain salvation - in other words, works come before salvation, not after it. You seem to have it back-to-front.

Furthermore, no one is granted salvation until after they die and are judged by Christ. So to claim you are already “saved” is absurd. And only Christ can judge if anyone is saved (or not) - if you judge yourself “saved”, you must be Christ.

noah was saved man before the flood not after . his physical being and his family was saved. they had to enter the door the ark represents Jesus

Noah and his family were saved because they had faith in God and obeyed all his commandments. The last commandment was to enter the ark when the flood came, so Noah was not a “saved man before the flood”. No one was saved until they went in the ark when the flood came. If they were saved before the flood, what were they saved from?

 

[RogerDC]

this is true but justification is being declared not guilty just as if we had never sinned

But justification is not permanent, in the sense that it is conditional - justification can be lost, and along with it, any hope of salvation.

Justification is doing something that shows God (a) that you love him (John 14:15), and (b) that you are worthy of salvation (Rev 3:4). Without faith and works we cannot be justified (James 2:24).

justification … is also part of our sanctification

No, I think it’s the other way around - sanctification is part of justification. Sanctification comes first, then justification (1Cor 6:11).

he justifies us setsus a part to be made Holy . three step process positional progressive and finial . as long as we are in this earthy body we are all a W. I.P work in progress much like the potter and the clay

I’m a bit confused by your doctrine. In post 13, you said God’s grace conquers any sin, that the death of Christ paid the price of our sins and that we are already saved - but you also seem to be saying we must obey the commandments and be holy. Why must we obey the commandments and be holy if grace and Christ covers our sins and we are already saved?

 

[RogerDC]

at what point do we gain access to his GRACE ?

I would say we gain access to His grace when we accept the gift of faith or when we get baptized - whichever comes first.

 

[Invisibilis]

I have no idea what you mean by that. But I do know that SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL. James 2:24 says "a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE". By "works", James means keeping the many commandments described in the NT, which includes repentance. These are CONDITIONS FOR SALVATION - so if you don't strive to repent and keep the commandments, you won't be saved.

There are many other verses that state/imply salvation is conditional.

As I already explained:

Faith is unconditional.
To be unconditional means, to no longer trust self, but trust God.
To no longer trust self means, to be absolutely honest (truthful).

So, to be unconditionally honest invites God's Grace.

So, Paul was speaking honestly.
It is only our conditional self which is dishonest.

Sorry that you do not understand what I wrote.

If you had unconditional faith, you would 'know' what's God's will is for you, and you will have the courage to carry it out. In other words, do good works for God. If your faith is conditional, then all your works are for self and not for God, even if you think differently.

 

[Ezra]

I would say we gain access to His grace when we accept the gift of faith or when we get baptized - whichever comes first.

we are saved by grace through faith justified by faith and grace

 

[Ezra]

But justification is not permanent, in the sense that it is conditional - justification can be lost, and along with it, any hope of salvation.

show scripture that says you can

 

[Ezra]

Sorry, but that sounds like unscriptural nonsense to me - nowhere in the Bible does it say God’s grace conquers any sin.

read romans 5:20

 

[Ezra]

But justification is not permanent, in the sense that it is conditional - justification can be lost, and along with it, any hope of salvation.

Justification is doing something that shows God (a) that you love him (John 14:15), and (b) that you are worthy of salvation (Rev 3:4). Without faith and works we cannot be justified (James 2:24).No, I think it’s the other way around - sanctification is part of justification. Sanctification comes first, then justification (1Cor 6:11). I’m a bit confused by your doctrine. In post 13, you said God’s grace conquers any sin, that the death of Christ paid the price of our sins and that we are already saved - but you also seem to be saying we must obey the commandments and be holy. Why must we obey the commandments and be holy if grace and Christ covers our sins and we are already saved?

read your bible until then i am not answering petty questions