What do you think about this?

[aspen]

Ok, this conversation is very helpful! Thank you wormwood and thank you Mary.

 

[ScottA]

i am not sure what to think about this article, which is being promoted by Fr James Martin, who has recently written a book on how LGBTQ should be embraced by the church. What do you guys think?

All things are a manifestation of things on high.

LGBTQ activity is a manifestation of self-love...while the godly model is of a man and a woman, representing God and mankind becoming One in marriage. It is our great privilege in the godly model, to represent God, in his plan for loving us.

So, for the church or any person to welcome LGBTQ relationships, is to send the wrong message. To do so, is to join in misrepresenting God.

 

[Marymog]

Marymog,

My concern with the "church of one" argument is that is just isn't Biblical. There is a big difference in saying, "I will not associate with sinners because I perceive myself to be perfect" and saying, "I will not fellowship with those who claim to be Christian and yet indulge and engage in lifestyles that God has declared to be wicked."
I mean, you have to explain 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 and I dont think you can just dismiss it so easily as to say, "Well we are all sinners, so live and let live." Paul seems to be taking a very different stance and instructing the Church (through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) to think differently as well.
In sum, the argument that Christians should not stand up against or reject wicked behavior in their midst because we all have sinned just doesn't hold water. Yes, we have all sinned, and none of us are saved by our own righteousness. We all need grace. However, we are called toward holiness and transformed living. The pervasive acceptance of evil behavior by Christians under the guise of humility and love I find to be really grounded in neither. I find it is usually based more in a desire for cultural acceptance and fear of being labeled as a bigot. Paul didn't seem to have such fears when he wrote about such sins and how the Church should approach those behaviors.

Hi,

It does sound like we have a different take on the article. I have read other interviews with JM and IMO he is saying what I stated in post #19. The linked interview is admittedly edited and condensed.

We seem to have a slightly different take on the 'church of one' statement also. I think the "Church of one" argument is: I decide what I believe to be true. I pick and choose the doctrines of The Church that I agree with and implement them into my life. I throw the doctrines out I don't like because I personally don't see them spelled out in scripture. I am my own authority when it comes to interpreting scripture. No other mans interpretation of scripture has authority over me. I can read scripture and figure it out on my own. Also know as a cafeteria Christian.

I agree. It is not biblical. Scripture says that The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth; not me and my interpretation of scripture. Scripture and early Christian History CLEARLY sets up a hierarchal Church with certain men at the head to properly interpret scripture and settle differences in The Church.

Romans 12:5 we are one body in Christ and individually members one of another. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...." 1 Corinthians 12. As you know in Timothy the office of the bishop is talked about and they are to pass down what they learned from the Apostles and then they pass it down to the next generation and so on and so on...Apostolic Succession. The historical writings of the Church Fathers support this also.

So that we may all be one and that together we may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (John and Romans). Christianity today is obviously NOT one voice with one doctrine.

That is why being a CAFETERIA CHRISTIAN (church of one) isn't biblical.

I hope you don't t think I am arguing with you. I am just bouncing my thoughts and research off of you and I am absorbing your thoughts. I believe you make some valid points.

Love Mary

 

[Wormwood]

Marymog,

I understand your view on ecclesiology. Although, as you know, I don't think the person speaking is trying to discuss that point (although I am sure he agrees with you given that he is Catholic). Even as a Protestant myself, I agree that the "church of one" mentality is unbiblical and dangerous.

I just think he is referring to breaking fellowship with people due to their sin. I appreciate the dialogue and courteous conversation :)

 

[Peanut]

As a new arrival here I don't know if I can post a link as yet. However, there is an article that I think is very helpful to address this question in the OP. "Sermon: What would Jesus do about Homosexuals?"


Recalling Mary Magdalene, he did not approve the sin the men who were intent on stoning her for. Rather, he forgave her. And told her not to sin again. I think we should welcome homosexuals into our congregations. However, we should not condone the unrepentant sin that our Father in Heaven sees as an abomination.They should not therefore be permitted to serve, as we read of some denominations permitting, in offices in the church. Deacons, etc... Christianity is about repentance, and rebirth as a new creation through the Father's grace. It is not about tolerating open unrepentant sin because the world considers it a civil right, or a protected class.
They deserve our prayers. Not our tolerating their willful intention to continue in their unrepentant sin and imperil their souls for eternity.
Jesus came to save sinners. Not pat them on the back and wish them well on their way to Hell.

 

[Wormwood]

Agreed. I like what Paul said to Timothy....

“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:24–26, ESV)

We should always seek to be kind, teaching, and correcting with gentleness. Our hope should be that God grant everyone, regardless of error needing correction, repentance leading to knowledge of the truth and can escape the snare of the devil. To ignore someone's sin and to not seek to help them grow and be free of such snares is not loving at all. If a parent sees a child playing with a viper, they pull the child away, even if the child gets upset. As the proverb says, "Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses."

 

[epostle1]

Courage is an international apostolate of the Catholic Church, which ministers to persons with same-sex attractions.

The Five Goals were created by the members themselves, when Courage was founded. The goals are read at the start of each meeting and each member is called to practice them in daily life. Here are the Goals in their entirety.

1. To live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on homosexuality. ( Chastity )
2. To dedicate our entire lives to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist. (Prayer and Dedication)
3. To foster a spirit of fellowship in which we may share with one another our thoughts and experiences, and so ensure that no one will have to face the problems of homosexuality alone. (Fellowship)
4. To be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in a chaste Christian life; and to encourage one another in forming and sustaining these friendships. (Support)
5. To live lives that may serve as good examples to others. (Good Example/Role Model)

Courage

 

[Marymog]

Marymog,

I understand your view on ecclesiology. Although, as you know, I don't think the person speaking is trying to discuss that point (although I am sure he agrees with you given that he is Catholic). Even as a Protestant myself, I agree that the "church of one" mentality is unbiblical and dangerous.

I just think he is referring to breaking fellowship with people due to their sin. I appreciate the dialogue and courteous conversation :)

Wow....I just saw this since you didn't back quote. Your statement is unbiblical.

You think The Church of one is unbiblical and dangerous? Are you serious????

Scripture disagrees with you....

Romans 15:6, 1 Corinthians 1:10 and 2 Timothy 2:2

IHS...Mary