What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

[Renniks]

You know that the majority of people in the past thought the world was flat and also in the past the people especially the church, thought the earth was the center of the universe, so much so, the church excommunicated an astronomer from the church, for disagreeing with the church, saying planet Earth was a planet with other planets orbiting the sun. Guess what, the church was wrong, and the astronomer was right.

This is irrelevant. We are talking doctrine, not science. Besides, everyone pretty much accepted the geocentric theory at the time, not just the church.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

This is irrelevant. We are talking doctrine, not science. Besides, everyone pretty much accepted the geocentric theory at the time, not just the church.

No, we're talking about what and how people think and believe a certain subject including religious doctrine. I know that you and others like you don't want us, meaning the rest of mankind to believe you're just imperfect people like everyone else and therefore fallible, but you are. You certainly have a right to your belief and a right to express it, but you're not infallible people. You can be wrong in what you believe to be true just as any other imperfect person or persons. You can think yourself/yourselves to be infallible people all you want when it comes to true doctrine about the True God, but you're not, no matter how long you believed in such doctines. If you and anyone else gets upset with me because I don't believe humanity to be infallible, then so be it. The only person I believe to be infallible is God, not humanity. Humanity has proven throughout history that although humanity has believed many things to be true in various categories such as science, medicine, biology, astronomy and yes religion, they have been wrong in some things in those various categories.

What I find concerning people, is many fail to acknowledge that when Jesus went into heaven and the Apostles and first century Christians died, a apostasy developed in which people would not be able to tell the difference between the apostate church and the true anointed church, for a period of time(for centuries). It would only be in the last days, during the second prescence of Jesus Christ that God through his Only Begotten Son would start separating the wheat(true believers and true doctrines) from the weeds( imitation believers and false doctrines).

 

[justbyfaith]

@BARNEY BRIGHT, this is what the Lord says to me:

1Jo 2:20, But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 2:27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Jo 4:4, Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5, They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6, We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[Renniks]

No, we're talking about what and how people think and believe a certain subject including religious doctrine. I know that you and others like you don't want us, meaning the rest of mankind to believe you're just imperfect people like everyone else and therefore fallible, but you are. You certainly have a right to your belief and a right to express it, but you're not infallible people. You can be wrong in what you believe to be true just as any other imperfect person or persons. You can think yourself/yourselves to be infallible people all you want when it comes to true doctrine about the True God, but you're not, no matter how long you believed in such doctines. If you and anyone else gets upset with me because I don't believe humanity to be infallible, then so be it. The only person I believe to be infallible is God, not humanity. Humanity has proven throughout history that although humanity has believed many things to be true in various categories such as science, medicine, biology, astronomy and yes religion, they have been wrong in some things in those various categories.

What I find concerning people, is many fail to acknowledge that when Jesus went into heaven and the Apostles and first century Christians died, a apostasy developed in which people would not be able to tell the difference between the apostate church and the true anointed church, for a period of time(for centuries). It would only be in the last days, during the second prescence of Jesus Christ that God through his Only Begotten Son would start separating the wheat(true believers and true doctrines) from the weeds( imitation believers and false doctrines).

Where did I say I was infallible?
I guess we will find out eventually what apostasy is. I happen have a pretty wide view of grace. I suspect that there will be a lot of folks saved in the end who have some very wacky theology. But Christ's deity is front and center doctrine. It's not a peripheral issue.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

@BARNEY BRIGHT, this is what the Lord says to me:

1Jo 2:20, But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Jo 2:27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Jo 4:4, Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5, They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6, We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I just think that many people fail to acknowledge that when such scriptures that you have quoted,The True God Jehovah through his Only Begotten Son Jesus was and is speaking to his anointed church(congregation). I'm not saying we shouldn't apply God's word on an individual level, we most certainly should, but when an individual says something to be true doctrine concerning the true God and the anointed congregation says something different, I'm going to side with the true anointed congregation. I understand that today their are people who say this organization is the true anointed church and others say no, this organization is the true anointed church. We all must make our individual choices, as to which organization is the true anointed church. You and others just haven't been able to convince me from the scriptures that the choices I have made are wrong.
Also if you think speaking evil about JW and the NWT is going to make me believe their not the true servants of The True God when Jesus himself said to his disciples that just as they have treated him so they would treat his disciples. People who were unbelievers said the most evil things about Jesus, they lied about him twisted things he said even took them out of context so they could have him put to death. What evil things people say about JW or the NWT or The watchtower are not going to convince me of anything except this one thing that JW and the Watchtower consider themselves to be imperfect men and women fallible like any other humans who make mistakes even when it comes to how we should think and believe concerning the scriptures.
The scriptures themselves have shown us that there going to be people on this world who will be weeds who actually are Satan's disciples. These people will be organized just as the true servants of God are(the wheat). The question one should ask themselves concerning this situation, do the weeds know they are Satan's disciples? Most likely not. They most likely, when it comes the the majority of these people will honestly think they're true Christians. The point is the weeds have Bern around for centuries and they have their doctrines that they believe are true doctrines and are consistent with scripture. I agree we all as individuals must decide which organization is the True anointed church

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Where did I say I was infallible?
I guess we will find out eventually what apostasy is. I happen have a pretty wide view of grace. I suspect that there will be a lot of folks saved in the end who have some very wacky theology. But Christ's deity is front and center doctrine. It's not a peripheral issue.

It's just every time someone posts to me, I get this attitude from them that they think they're absolutely are right in what they say concerning true doctrine concerning the True God and it's impossible that what I believe is true, because why, I choose to not agree with someone interpretations and instead go by what is literally written down. I will always have no problem with someone choosing what they believe to be true and expressing that, but when such people because I exercise the same right as they do, gives me this attitude that I absolutely must be wrong and that they're absolutely right, yeah right. They have a right to choose what they honestly believe is true and what they believe is consistent with the scriptures but so does everyone else. Just because they disagree with them doesnt mean they're absolutely wrong just because they say so. Like I said when it comes to me I'm going to view them and any other human as imperfect fallible humans who have the right to choose what they believe to be true and what they believe to be consistent with the scriptures, but does that mean because I disagree with what they believe I have to be absolutely wrong, no! It just means we disagree and we should both agree to disagree and throw away any attitude that any one of us has who thinks he or she is absolutely wrong because someone disagrees with us, that's where we have gone wrong, when we've become too arrogant. That's why no one should judge another person because we're all imperfect fallible people. I'm not saying we should ignore Scripture but that we should drop the arrogant attitude and simply agree to disagree. God will eventually judge who are his people at Armageddon and if I'm found to be wrong then I can blame no one but myself and vice versa.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @BARNEY BRIGHT;

You should look into the prophecies that the Watchtower has set forth; because it is a known fact that they have prophesied falsely on many occasions. I once even bought a book that contained a list of all of the prophecies given by the Watchtower society and how they did not come to pass. Unfortunately I placed it in the mailbox of a Kingdom Hall and didn't read it myself. I later came across the guy that it hit because he seemed to believe in Watchtower's doctrines but wasn't relying on their material but his own thinking (his name was Ray or something like that).

But I'm sure that if you google false prophecies of the Watchtower something will come up; you should for your own sake go down that rabbit trail, because if the Watchtower is unreliable and is a false prophet then they ought not to be listened to.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hi @BARNEY BRIGHT;

You should look into the prophecies that the Watchtower has set forth; because it is a known fact that they have prophesied falsely on many occasions. I once even bought a book that contained a list of all of the prophecies given by the Watchtower society and how they did not come to pass. Unfortunately I placed it in the mailbox of a Kingdom Hall and didn't read it myself. I later came across the guy that it hit because he seemed to believe in Watchtower's doctrines but wasn't relying on their material but his own thinking (his name was Ray or something like that).

But I'm sure that if you google false prophecies of the Watchtower something will come up; you should for your own sake go down that rabbit trail, because if the Watchtower is unreliable and is a false prophet then they ought not to be listened to.

I knew about the prophecies. I'm not ignorant of them. I, unlike you, just don't think the JW to be perfect, that they don't make all kinds of mistakes. I don't expect true Christians to never make mistakes.

 

[justbyfaith]

I knew about the prophecies. I'm not ignorant of them. I, unlike you, just don't think the JW to be perfect, that they don't make all kinds of mistakes. I don't expect true Christians to never make mistakes.

They're claiming to be prophets. The Bible says, I think in Deuteronomy, that if a prophet prophesies something and it does not come to pass, you shall not be afraid of him nor heed his words. And, 100% accuracy is required.

I think it even says that that prophet ought to be put to death.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

They're claiming to be prophets. The Bible says, I think in Deuteronomy, that if a prophet prophesies something and it does not come to pass, you shall not be afraid of him nor heed his words. And, 100% accuracy is required.



I think it even says that that prophet ought to be put to death.

Well, back in the time your talking about has to do with the law covenant, back then, a man and woman caught in the act of adultery, were to be put to death too. Is that what you think we should do to all such people caught doing that?
Like I said, I'm aware of the prophecies and that they were mistakes, imperfect people make mistskes. I don't think they should be put to death for that, just as I don't think people who cheat on their marital partner should be put to death when caught in the act. Hopefully people, including religious organization will learn from their mistakes.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, back in the time your talking about has to do with the law covenant, back then, a man and woman caught in the act of adultery, were to be put to death too. Is that what you think we should do to all such people caught doing that?
Like I said, I'm aware of the prophecies and that they were mistakes, imperfect people make mistskes. I don't think they should be put to death for that, just as I don't think people who cheat on their marital partner should be put to death when caught in the act. Hopefully people, including religious organization will learn from their mistakes.

Deu 18:20, But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21, And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22, When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Deu 18:20, But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21, And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22, When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I'm not trying to tell you to agree with me nor be afraid of anyone. I just believe in forgiveness. I believe all people, therefore all organizations that make mistakes and learn from them shouldn't be tossed. However if people which includes the organization they represent continue to say something that I honestly believe not to be true when it comes to the scriptures, I'm not going to blindly believe or follow them. The scriptures themselves have never influenced anyone to believe in blind faith. I honestly believe you to be interpreting the scriptures wrong. I honestly don't believe that a lot of things you say concerning the scriptures is true. When I disagree with someone I'm certainly not trying to influence them to be afraid. Also I've already said that the prophecies were mistakes, but if you're trying to say that when some person or organization shouldn't be listened to, when making mistakes then I shouldn't listen to anyone or any organization when it comes to what they have to say about the scriptures. That would include you, but I don't think that way.
I agree that we all as individuals have to decide which people and the organization they represent are speaking the truth in regard to the scriptures. I don't think though we should have the objective of influencing people to be afraid when we speak about the scriptures. How can you truly be a person who believes in love and forgiveness if what you're doing instead is just making people afraid.

 

[justbyfaith]

@BARNEY BRIGHT,

I'm just going to pray for you that the Lord opens your eyes to see the truth (which I also pray for myself every time I open up the word of the Lord).

You obviously have your opinions and nothing that I say to you is going to change that.

But the Holy Spirit is able to do the work. So I put it in His hands.

 

[tigger 2]

The Watchtower organization does not now, nor has it ever, claimed to be an inspired prophet of God. They have acknowledged from the beginning that they are imperfect human servants of God.

Those prophets described in Deut. were claiming to be inspired by God. Therefore if what they said 'in the name of Jehovah' was false, they too were false prophets.

The interpretations of scripture which involve the time of future events are understood to be interpretations of scripture and subject to possible error.

But if the essential knowledge of God and His commands as understood by JW's are in error, that is an entirely different matter.

For example, if it is proved from scripture that God is three (or 2) persons, many of us would seek elsewhere.

"Father, ....This is eternal life: to know thee who alone art truly God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:1, 3, NEB.

 

[justbyfaith]

"Father, ....This is eternal life: to know thee who alone art truly God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:1, 3, NEB.

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The word and in this verse is the Greek word kai, which can be translated even.

Thus it can be translated:

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, even Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And you have another problem from this verse. For if the Jesus of the JW's is merely a god, this verse proclaims him to be a false god.

In order for Him to be true as a God He must be the only true God; even Jehovah.

Think about it.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

@BARNEY BRIGHT,

I'm just going to pray for you that the Lord opens your eyes to see the truth (which I also pray for myself every time I open up the word of the Lord).

You obviously have your opinions and nothing that I say to you is going to change that.

But the Holy Spirit is able to do the work. So I put it in His hands.

I hope the same for you, but let's be honest with each other. Just as you don't believe what you're saying is just your opinions, neither do I.

 

[justbyfaith]

I hope the same for you, but let's be honest with each other. Just as you don't believe what you're saying is just your opinions, neither do I.

One of us is right and the other wrong.

I encourage you to study your kjv in order that you might be a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

But read your Bible alone and cease from reading Watchtower materials.

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

 

[justbyfaith]

@BARNEY BRIGHT,

Have you considered this?

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The word and in this verse is the Greek word kai, which can be translated even.

Thus it can be translated:

Jhn 17:3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, even Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

And you have another problem from this verse. For if the Jesus of the JW's is merely a god, this verse proclaims him to be a false god.

In order for Him to be true as a God He must be the only true God; even Jehovah.

Think about it.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

One of us is right and the other wrong.

I encourage you to study your kjv in order that you might be a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

But read your Bible alone and cease from reading Watchtower materials.

Pro 19:27, Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

I understand how you feel about JW. My family went to the meetings of Baptists and Pentecostal churches when I was growing up. Such churches although they agreed that the Bible is God word did little when it comes to being obedient to its instructions. I have found from speaking with other JW that they were fed up with churches their family went to cause their churches were the same. So just as you feel about JW the way you do we feel the same as how Christendom and those churches who believe similarly.

 

[justbyfaith]

I teach that real grace produces obedience of the heart.

It remains that if you do not believe that Jesus is the great I AM, you will die in your sins.