What do you think............

[Hidden In Him]

Well, I would tend to "when that which is perfect is come" in 1 Cor. 13 meaning the completion of Scripture.

Ok Farouk, let's break this passage down, and I don't hold any illusions that you may be particularly open to what I will say here, but at least follow along with me so you understand the argument. As they say, context is king, and context determines the actual meaning here.

Ok, the first thing one needs to understand is that the subject matter throughout 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 are the spiritual gifts. It doesn't change to talking about some closed cannon and then switch back to talking about the gifts. That's a modern Cessationist twist on the teaching that doesn't bear out well at all when you read the entire section as a whole.

But let's start with Chapter 12 to establish this:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant... There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings bythe same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills... 27 you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

I truncated the Chapter a little, but that was simply to highlight what the subject matter is from start to finish: The spiritual gifts, and he ends it with the words, "And yet I show you a way that's in accordance with excellence." A way to what? A way to operate in the gifts with greater excellence than what they were using. They were speaking in tongues left and right, but no one was interpreting so the church was not being edified, and worse yet, if unbelievers came in and saw nothing but tongues in operation with no interpretation they might think the congregation was crazy.

So Paul was saying here (and I will paraphrase) "I show you a way to operate in the gifts in accordance with excellence, and that is this: Focus on operating in them out of love, because if not they may end up as worthless and nothing more than a clanging cymbal in the ears of others." This is driving point through the next two Chapters. In Chapter 13 he states the following:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned but have not love, it profits me nothing.

In other words, if you don't operate in the spiritual gifts out of love, it will profit you nothing personally to do so. Then he comes to this:

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

This is the passage so many people louse up really badly. His point here is not to be a child in using the gifts, but do so responsibly as an adult, for only when you speak in such a way that people can understand will you be a blessing to them. The "knowing in part and prophesying in part" is NOT about knowing God. That is completely foreign to the text. He is talking about believers knowing one another more clearly as a result of prophecy. This is what is again referring to in the next Chapter when he says:

24 If all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

The "knowing" has to do with when prophecy goes forth and we then know something about the person prophesied that is truly at the heart of their life and where they stand with God, because they fall down and confess that the things spoken by the Spirit are true, and since only God Himself could know these things then He must be among us. This is the power of prophecy to change people's lives, and not just speak in tongues like a child to no spiritual effect. Paul finishes by saying that when we get to Heaven there will be no need for such gifts anymore because there we will "see" i.e. know one another face to face, and the masks will all be off at that point with full acceptance and truthfulness towards one another. But until then there will still be a need for such gifts because we don't always know the secrets in each other's hearts to truly minister to one another as we might. Only the Spirit of God still sees into the heart.

This is why Paul returns to stressing the need to earnestly seek the spiritual gifts in Chapter 14, by saying:

1 [Therefore] pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

As for the expressions "seeing in a glass darkly," vs. seeing "face to face," they both again refer to the operation of spiritual gifts, and prophecy in particular. I wrote up a piece in this a few years ago, so I will post on that next (It will be too large a post unless I divide things up).

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Ok Farouk, let's break this passage down, and I don't hold any illusions that you may be particularly open to what I will say here, but at least follow along with me so you understand the argument. As they say, context is king, and context determines the actual meaning here.

Ok, the first thing one needs to understand is that the subject matter throughout 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 are the spiritual gifts. It doesn't change to talking about some closed cannon and then switch back to talking about the gifts. That's a modern Cessationist twist on the teaching that doesn't bear out well at all when you read the entire section as a whole.

But let's start with Chapter 12 to establish this:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant... There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings bythe same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills... 27 you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

I truncated the Chapter a little, but that was simply to highlight what the subject matter is from start to finish: The spiritual gifts, and he ends it with the words, "And yet I show you a way that's in accordance with excellence." A way to what? A way to operate in the gifts with greater excellence than what they were using. They were speaking in tongues left and right, but no one was interpreting so the church was not being edified, and worse yet, if unbelievers came in and saw nothing but tongues in operation with no interpretation they might think the congregation was crazy.

So Paul was saying here (and I will paraphrase) "I show you a way to operate in the gifts in accordance with excellence, and that is this: Focus on operating in them out of love, because if not they may end up as worthless and nothing more than a clanging cymbal in the ears of others." This is driving point through the next two Chapters. In Chapter 13 he states the following:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned but have not love, it profits me nothing.

In other words, if you don't operate in the spiritual gifts out of love, it will profit you nothing personally to do so. Then he comes to this:

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

This is the passage so many people louse up really badly. His point here is not to be a child in using the gifts, but do so responsibly as an adult, for only when you speak in such a way that people can understand will you be a blessing to them. The "knowing in part and prophesying in part" is NOT about knowing God. That is completely foreign to the text. He is talking about believers knowing one another more clearly as a result of prophecy. This is what is again referring to in the next Chapter when he says:

24 If all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

The "knowing" has to do with when prophecy goes forth and we then know something about the person prophesied that is truly at the heart of their life and where they stand with God, because they fall down and confess that the things spoken by the Spirit are true, and since only God Himself could know these things then He must be among us. This is the power of prophecy to try change people's lives, and not just speak in tongues like a child to no spiritual effect. Paul finishes by saying that when we get to Heaven there will be no need for such gifts anymore because there we will "see" i.e. know one another face to face, and the masks will all be off at that point with full acceptance and truthfulness towards one another. But until then there will still be a need for such gifts because we don't always know the secrets in each other's hearts to truly minister to one another as we might to. Only the Spirit of God still sees into the heart.

This is why Paul returns to stressing the need to earnestly seek the spiritual gifts in Chapter 14, by saying:

1 [Therefore] pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

As for the expressions "seeing in a glass darkly," vs. seeing "face to face," they both again refer to the operation of spiritual gifts, and prophecy in particular. I wrote up a piece in this a few years ago, so I will post on that next (It will be too large a post unless I divide things up).

ABSOLUTELY, SPOT ON.
GOOD TEACHING,BROTHER !

 

[Hidden In Him]

Here is the expert taken from a few years ago, slightly modified to fit the current context:

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

The Greek here is βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι' ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον. It reads literally "now we see through a glass in an enigma, but then face to face." Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8 in the LXX).

Paul uses the same two phrases from this passage in Numbers from the LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament), which shows this is the passage he was alluding to, and he used these exact same two expressions to make the same comparisons. God spoke "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) with Moses, but to His prophets He spoke "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels with what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions, and also to what it is like prophesying directly over the lives of others one does not know. The one prophesying doesn't have a clue about the person he is prophesying over, so he is simply uttering what the Spirit of God is leading him to say even though at the moment he is still completely in the dark about it.

Thus, Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy would always be needed because we do not truly see one another face to face yet and know one another's inner most secrets as God does.

In conclusion, and in context, the passage has nothing to do with the gifts ceasing or the canon being closed. Quite the opposite, it instead teaches the need for the gifts until the Lord comes.

 

[Hidden In Him]

ABSOLUTELY, SPOT ON.
GOOD TEACHING,BROTHER !

I don't know that it was THAT good, but I appreciate the compliment if you got something out of it. I was simply sharing what the Lord gave me, LoL!

Btw, bold text THIS large is a little bit hard on the eyes, but seeing as how I can't pass a driving test anymore maybe I should be thanking the Lord you took the time!

God bless you, sister, and glad if it wasn't a waste of time. I appreciate it. :)
- H

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Okaaaay,
Next thought.

SOUL:
Ge.2: 4-10 ( context )
V.7. And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; AND MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.

EZ.18 :2-5 ( context )
V.4. Behold ,ALL SOULS ARE MINE; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:*** THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE.***

Mt.10:26-29 ( context )
V.28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell.

SPIRIT:
Ecc.3: 19-22 ( context)
V.21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth UPWARD, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth ?

1Cor. 2:9-12 ( context)
V.11. For what knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man which is in him ? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Rms.8: 7-10 ( context)
V.9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ecc.8:6-9 ( context)
V.8. There is no man that hath power over the spirit [ man's] to retain the spirit ; [ man's] neither hath he power in the day of death..........

We know the vessel of mankind is made up of three parts; the body, which is made from the dust of the ground and upon decomp returns to the ground, the spirit [ of man] which goes upwards...where to?, and the soul of man which returns to God, for it is his possession.

Your thoughts on these things: the soul being God's returns to him, what becomes of it? Since it returns to God, is the body then just a shell until decaying? Or is all this different until the 2nd coming ?

The spirit of man is a man, his character, values, personality ect.,it goes upwards to what place, and does it receive reward or punishment ? This is not the Spirit of God which must be received at salvation, is there a difference in the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ as the word seems to imply ?

God is a spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and in truth? So do we worship with our spirit, our soul, or in His Spirit ?

 

[Wynona]

Yes I know about the women's suffrage movement and the ERA and it was a lot more than voting...either one.



One, I am talking about about being equal members in the Christian community at all levels.



Well I disagree. And I do not blame Eve for the fall in the garden....two people two decisions. And I am talking about what the Holy Spirit has taught us since the Bible.....Old Testament....you planning on selling your daughters as a sex slave....concubinage. The Holy Spirit instill a Christian conscience to discern such things.....slavery is wrong....wedding ceremonies are right. Polygamy is wrong, monogamy is right. Submissive....submissive to each other.

We must worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth. You are right about monogamy being right. But we get that from the New Testament. Slavery has been abolished in America. The abolitionists believed in the credibility of God's Word that declares all mankind is equal.

If you don't have a credible Bible, you don't have a basis for what is good and moral.

Yes, we submit to one another in general. But the wife obey her husband as he sacrificially leads and this reflects Christ and the church. This doesn't make her unequal. When I submit to my husband, I do so because I trust him with my life. I trust him with my life because he sacrifices it for me. It's actually a really beautiful thing.

Its just like the Church responding to Jesus. We obey Jesus because He demonstrated his love and is worthy. Not because He Lorded his rightful authority over us but because we trust him.

 

[Grailhunter]

We must worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth. You are right about monogamy being right. But we get that from the New Testament. Slavery has been abolished in America. The abolitionists believed in the credibility of God's Word that declares all mankind is equal.

If you don't have a credible Bible, you don't have a basis for what is good and moral.

Yes, we submit to one another in general. But the wife obey her husband as he sacrificially leads and this reflects Christ and the church. This doesn't make her unequal. When I submit to my husband, I do so because I trust him with my life. I trust him with my life because he sacrifices it for me. It's actually a really beautiful thing.

Its just like the Church responding to Jesus. We obey Jesus because He demonstrated his love and is worthy. Not because He Lorded his rightful authority over us but because we trust him.

Slavery was common in the biblical period. Women were treated as property in the Old Testament. Not much different in the New Testament. Polygamy and concubinage continued on. This is all wrapped up in a general concept that the Holy Spirit taught us was wrong. The chaste system.

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 1st Corinthians 11:3

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. Ephesians 5:23

Lord and master .... For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church.....Lord and master.

This is what the Holy Spirit taught us is wrong. Slavery, polygamy, concubinage, the chaste system....
What is right...The wife, the woman is standing equal before Christ with men and husbands. The slavery concept is gone....the chaste concept is gone. Religious / social ranking is gone. No difference between male and female. Women are no longer second rate citizens or members in society or marriage or the church....All religious offices are open to them. Men and women are companions in marriage....two mules pulling a wagon...LOL

 

[CadyandZoe]

I still believe in the spiritual gifts set in order in the church by the Spirit as he will.

1 Cor.14:19-25 ( context )
V.22 therefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth NOT for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

This is why ppl say tongues are not for today.....v.23 if therefore the WHOLE CHURCH be come together in ONE PLACE,and ALL speak with tongues, and there come in THOSE THAT ARE UNLEARNED,OR UNBELIEVERS, WILL THEY NOT SAY YE ARE MAD.......[ it's fake,not real,been done away with, ect.]

Now PROPHESY, or if God speaks through one person for the benefit of the body or one in the body, this does not IMO make them A PROPHET but rather a yeilded vessel that the Spirit will and can use.
I have had God speak TO ME or reveal something he required or wanted me to follow to be in his will, and I have had another CONFIRM what God has already told me. Isn't this prophesy of the Spirit ?

The gifts of the Spirit or his work in a body of believers is not THAT PERSONS OWN GIFT but is a working of the Spirit.

I do not believe God has modern day called prophets,they ceased after John ,who was in the spirit of Elijah and Christ's forerunner, all the others spoke on God's behalf to Israel.
We have preachers,teachers ministers,evangelists to spread the word today.

There may be more and different thoughts later on
What do you think...........

Your statement that the gifts of the Spirit are a work of the Spirit among a body of believers, not a person's own gift, is insightful in my opinion. The key to understanding spiritual gifts is to remember who is the source of the gifts and the purpose of the gifts. Since the source of any particular manifestation of the Spirit is the Spirit himself, I caution against limiting our thinking. There will always be manifestations of the Spirit as long as the Spirit of truth continues his mission.

The apostle John refers to manifestations of the Spirit as "the spirits" and he cautions us to test the spirits. And how do we "test" the spirits? We have the scriptures to guide us. This is why it is so important to read and learn the Bible so that if someone brings a message contrary to the word of God we can recognize it. There will be false teachers; there will be false signs and wonders. The written word of God is our guide and so is the Holy Spirit himself.

I don't believe those who say that tongues have ceased. But I test what they say against the word of God. I don't believe prophecy has ceased. But I test what the prophet says against the word of God. I don't believe there are apostles today, but in any case, I always remember what Paul said to the Galatians:

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Galatians 1:8-9

 

[David H.]

With Revelation, the Scriptures are indeed complete..............

Scripture is complete, But Prophecy will not cease till the "perfect is come" (1Corinthians 13:9-10)

To be a cessationist you would have to prove That the "perfect is come" occurred at some time in the past. I Believe this has yet to occur, Because we all still know in Part. I believe Prophecy will cease at the second coming.

That being said there are false and true prophets out there, and the false significantly outnumber the true, something like 450 prophets of Baal to one Man of God.

 

[farouk]

Scripture is complete, But Prophecy will not cease till the "perfect is come" (1Corinthians 13:9-10)

To be a cessationist you would have to prove That the "perfect is come" occurred at some time in the past. I Believe this has yet to occur, Because we all still know in Part. I believe Prophecy will cease at the second coming.

That being said there are false and true prophets out there, and the false significantly outnumber the true, something like 450 prophets of Baal to one Man of God.

The Apostles are all dead. What we have in the New Testament is the Apostolic faith 'once delivered to the saints' (Jude).

 

[David H.]

The Apostles are all dead. What we have in the New Testament is the Apostolic faith 'once delivered to the saints' (Jude).

So the Spirit of Truth is no longer at work in this world revealing to the saints what He is shown, that ended with the death of the Apostle John? (John 16:13)

 

[TLHKAJ]

Acts 2:17-18
[17]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

[L.A.M.B.]

John 16:11-14 ( context )
13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will GUIDE you into ALL TRUTH: for
He shall NOT speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

The Spirit of God has always been among his ppl is my belief but in these last days since Jesus returned to heaven, he, the Spirit now has a mission to be our teacher, our reminder of the word, bear his fruit to help us be more Christ-like
He is quenched when he doesn't have the freedom to move in the body and ppl also lack his mission by not believing he is God also.

John 14:15-1> ( context)
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the WORLD CAN NOT RECEIVE,because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know HIM; FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.


Ppl DENY his place as God as they do the Son of God. He is NOT some spirit floating around saying boooo but has a purpose to help those who live under grace to spread the word and prapare believers for eternity. This takes being IN the believer not just outside the believer like a commentary.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I'm just going to keep reminding ppl we are in the home stretch and it is time to reach even harder towards the MARK!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

If  YOU belong to God,his voice is the one you hear, if not many voices are confusing you and fluttering again't your spiritual ears, like the blades of a helicopter

We cannot hear, do and follow if the noise of the world and the noise of churchdom are  LOUDER than that still small voice.

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm just going to keep reminding ppl we are in the home stretch and it is time to reach even harder towards the MARK!View attachment 27468

Thats right . We are in the last days hours of the final stretch .
Do all to point to Christ . Bring lots of sound bible doctrine by which if one takes heed they shall grow wise .

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Thats right . We are in the last days hours of the final stretch .
Do all to point to Christ . Bring lots of sound bible doctrine by which if one takes heed they shall grow wise .

And to those whom REJECT it be it on your own souls.
Truth comes from God by his Spirit, let him BE YOUR GUIDE!