What does Christ mean by 'this generation shall not pass'?
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Dear rwb,
Consider what Daniel was told about the resurrections:
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth (the grave) shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
Death is called "sleep" or "rest". If Daniel was alive without a bodily resurrection, why is he told that when the resurrections come, he would awake from his sleep/rest?
Consider what Paul said about the bodily resurrection to the Thesslonians:
1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
In this scripture, Paul is trying to give hope & comfort to some of the Thessalonians believers who have lost loved ones - those who "sleep in Jesus". So how does Paul give them comfort? He tries to re-assure them about the coming bodily resurrection from the grave. He then explains that the resurrection has an order to it. Paul ends his comments by saying "comfort one another with the words".
If those who "sleep in Jesus" were already alive in heaven (just without a body), why didn't Paul tell them so in this scripture? After all, what could be more comforting than telling the Thessalonians that their loved ones weren't really dead, but were, in fact, alive in heaven with Christ? But Paul didn't tell them that because it was not true. A believer's hope is in the bodily resurrection.
Paul teaches about the bodily resurrection again here:
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 16 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 17 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 18 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When the resurrection comes, Paul says that the mortal will "put on immortality". If the person was already alive in heaven, wouldn't that mean that they already have immortality?
Consider what David said:
Psa 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?
Answering the questions David posed: Yes, all mankind will "see death" and their soul (individual consciousness) will be delivered from the grave by the bodily resurrection.
And finally, consider what Christ said:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
When the bodily resurrection occurs, all who are in the graves will hear Christ's voice (the last trumpet). The term "grave" means being in a state of death. Those who are in the graves cannot be in heaven (as you believe) since there is no death in heaven. When a person dies (saved or not), it is only their spirit which returns to God. Without a body, the person has no life.
If what you believe is true, why doesn't Christ say that believers who have died are actually up in heaven waiting for their new body? Why does Christ say that they are in the grave?
You said:
Yes, all who have been born again through the Spirit of Christ have the Spirit within them. They are the firstfruits of spiritual resurrection after the physical body dies.
The spiritual resurrection happens while the believer is physically alive. It is a person's moment of salvation.
The spiritual resurrection is called the "First Resurrection" in Rev 20:5. Another name for it is "conversion". To be converted, Christ must give a person the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by His judgment. Conversion/First Resurrection is described in Revelation chapter 19 and the first four verses of chapter 20. In that section of scripture, it uses the marriage analogy to teach it. Conversion includes the Marriage of the Lamb (Latter Rain/born again), the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (fed the truth of God by Christ) and then the Supper of the Great God (judgment).
Also, the point I was making about the indwelling of the Spirit is that no one can call Jesus "Lord" until AFTER Christ has come to them and given them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Most churches teach that a person must make a confession of faith in order to receive the Spirit - but this is wrong because it puts the cart before the horse, so to speak. The Spirit is given to a person beforehand so that they will make the confession of faith when they are presented the Gospel (1Cor 12:3). For that reason, no man can boast about their salvation because it was a free gift from Christ. Man's "works" play no part in whether or not they are saved. When Christ is ready to save a person, He will come to them and give them the free gift of the Spirit and salvation. And since Christ was sent by His Father to save the world (1John 4:14), He will eventually come to every person who has ever lived and give them the free gift of salvation. For the people Christ comes to in this age, they are considered "blessed" and are called the Elect. In the farming analogy, the Elect are called the First Fruits of the harvest. They do not represent the full and complete harvest of mankind as most churches teach. The remaining harvest of mankind will come at "year's end" (meaning the final age).
Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
The final harvest of mankind will occur while the "lost" of the final age are being judged by the Law in the "Lake of Fire" (a symbol for the judgment of Christ):
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law; justice, mercy, and faith. These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The penalty of sin is death but before the "lost" perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need for salvation. After they are spiritually resurrected to heaven, justice will be served by the death of who they used to be (a child of the Devil).
After the last person of mankind is saved, this verse will be testified to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Christ will save all mankind because of His GRACE (unmerited favor) and not because any of us deserve it.
What I have just presented above is the true Gospel (Good News) of Christ. The gospel that the apostate churches of the world teach is a nightmare.
Joe
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Because his physical body was not alive! No flesh will be physically resurrected from the dead until an hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. Daniel's ascended with Christ a spiritual body after Christ arose from the grave. Paul writes that when our body is sown in the grave at death, it is raised a spiritual body. Since the spirit returns to God after our body dies, just as we are a physical body of believers on earth, so too in heaven we shall be a spiritual body of believers there. Still a living soul because wherever there is life, whether physical or spiritual there is a living soul.
How will those who have died return with Christ from heaven physically since mortal flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? It is the spiritual body of believers in heaven that have physically died in Christ that will return with Christ. Then our physical flesh also shall be resurrected, no longer mortal & corruptible, but immortal and incorruptible, made alive again through the spirit that returns with Christ.
Paul did give them comfort regarding their loved ones who had already physically died in Jesus. They are coming back with Him from heaven because only their flesh returned to the earth, but because they are a living spiritual body of believers in heaven, they are NOT among the dead in unbelief, said to be in darkness and unbelief in the graves. Of course, the believers hope is in the bodily resurrection when we shall once again be complete living soul. But our true hope is in the promise of Christ telling us that when we live and believe in Him we shall NEVER die. That's why Paul was anxious to be out of his mortal, corruptible flesh so he could be present with the Lord in heaven.
Yes, the first resurrection is the resurrection of Christ that man must partake of before they die. When we have partaken of Christ by being born again of His Spirit we have partaken of the "first resurrection." At the moment we are born again we receive the Holy Spirit from Christ. The Spirit will not leave us, but will be with us until we are bodily resurrected and changed. There do not need the Spirit from Christ to enter us a second time because the life we have through Him shall NEVER die!
Early and latter rain are of the harvest of the souls that are eternally saved through Christ. The early rain comes for whosoever physically dies in Christ when we are raised a spiritual body to heaven. The latter rain shall come for all who have lived and died in Christ (believers), as well as for all believers who are still alive at His second coming, when our spirit gives physical immortal life to our new body of flesh & bone. In the final harvest (latter rain) we shall once again be as we were in the beginning when God created man with body + spirit and they became complete living souls. Only then we shall never grow sick, or old, and we will never again die.
It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing! Without life from the Spirit there is not life, which is why Christ says that we must be born again to both know and enter the Kingdom of God. We do that when we hear the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through the power of the Holy Spirit and we believe, then in repentance we turn to Christ for life everlasting.
John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
This is NOT truth! Christ did indeed come to save all of His creation, but the atoning blood of Christ will only benefit whosoever among the mass of humanity that shall believe on Christ through the power of His Spirit shall be eternally saved. The rest will have their fate in the lake of fire that is the second death. If all who has ever lived shall be saved, there would be no second death!
Whosoever has been or shall be born again through the Spirit of Christ within, are the elect of God, the chosen generation that shall endure forever.
The lake of fire is the second death, from which there is no escape!
Dear rwb,
Concerning life after death and the bodily resurrection, there is not much more I can present from scripture. I will respond briefly to some of your last comments though.
You said:
How will those who have died return with Christ from heaven physically since mortal flesh & blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? It is the spiritual body of believers in heaven that have physically died in Christ that will return with Christ. Then our physical flesh also shall be resurrected, no longer mortal & corruptible, but immortal and incorruptible, made alive again through the spirit that returns with Christ.
Have you not read 1Corithinians chapter 15? It contradicts your statements above.
When the bodily resurrection occurs, those who are converted, will receive a spiritual body and rise from the grave. They receive a spiritual body because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. This spiritual body will be similar to the one Christ displayed when He appeared to the Apostles after He was resurrected.
As for the "order" of the resurrection, the dead in Christ will be resurrected first and then those who are alive and remain, will rise and join them in the air.
1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
As for how much time passes between the two events, scripture does not say but it cannot be very long because those who remain must be resurrected before they have time to physically die.
Why do you believe that when a person's spirit returns to God that their spirit is already in a spiritual body? There is no scripture that teaches this understanding. If your belief were true, there would be no need for a saved person to experience the bodily resurrection from the grave because they would already have a spiritual body.
I have thoroughly explained from scripture the truth of when a believer receives life after they die. They receive it when the bodily resurrection from the grave occurs at the end of this age. Since you cannot receive that truth from the scripture I have presented, there is no reason to discuss this subject any further.
You said:
Early and latter rain are of the harvest of the souls that are eternally saved through Christ. The early rain comes for whosoever physically dies in Christ when we are raised a spiritual body to heaven. The latter rain shall come for all who have lived and died in Christ (believers), as well as for all believers who are still alive at His second coming, when our spirit gives physical immortal life to our new body of flesh & bone. In the final harvest (latter rain) we shall once again be as we were in the beginning when God created man with body + spirit and they became complete living souls. Only then we shall never grow sick, or old, and we will never again die.
Where are the scriptures that say the Early and Latter Rain is a harvest of souls? I know of none.
In the farming analogy, it is the Early and Latter Rains which causes the wheat (the Elect) to grow and be ready for harvest into the Kingdom of Heaven. The time of the harvest occurs just after the Latter Rain is poured out on a believer. With the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness is healed, which in turn, causes Christ to appear to them. When Christ appears, the Day of the Lord will commence. But because the believer is now "blameless", they will not experience wrath during their time of judgment. Instead, they will reign with Christ during their own judgment as shown in the last half of Revelation chapter 19.
Also, the second coming of Christ is when Christ "comes again" to a believer who has only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. When Christ comes the second time, He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon the believer for their salvation.
Because the second coming of Christ happens to all the Elect during their lifetime, the second coming of Christ must be a re-occurring event and that is exactly what these verses below teach:
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Scripture also says that Christ will "come quickly" to His Elect because if He didn't come to each of them before they die, they would not be saved:
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
You said that you believe that Mat 24:34 is referring to all the Elect - that they are the generation who will not pass away until all the things listed in chapter 24 come to pass.
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
"All these things" include the second coming of Christ which is shown in verses 29-30:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
After a believer is given the Latter Rain, their sun and moon will be darkened. This means that because their spiritual blindness has been healed, they will no longer be receiving their "truth" from Satan (the natural sun) or from their carnal nature (the natural moon). They will now receive truth only from Christ (the spiritual Sun) and their new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit (the New Moon).
When Christ "came again" to Peter on the Day of Pentecost and poured out the Latter Rain on him, Peter made a similar statement about the sun and moon:
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and notable Day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mat 24:29-30 and Acts 2:14-21 are describing the same event. That event is the second coming of Christ and is when a believer will call on the name of the Lord and be saved (v. 21 above). This event is the moment of salvation for a believer. It is called the First Resurrection (the spiritual resurrection). Immediately after the spiritual resurrection, the "great and notable Day of the Lord" (judgment) will follow. After the Elect believer's judgment is complete, they will be converted. It all happens very quickly - just as it did to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost.
You said:
This is NOT truth! Christ did indeed come to save all of His creation, but the atoning blood of Christ will only benefit whosoever among the mass of humanity that shall believe on Christ through the power of His Spirit shall be eternally saved.
As I have pointed out, belief (faith) in Christ comes ONLY after a person has been given the free gift of the Spirit by Christ. You even quoted a verse that says a person's faith is a fruit of the Spirit.
From your statement above, I can see that you are mixing in your own "works" with faith so as to make yourself worthy of salvation and why others are not worthy. When a believer does this mixing of the Old and New Covenants, they are committing the sin that leads to death. This is the deception of Satan's "another gospel" by which he kills the saints. This is why all Ten Virgins are shown to be sleeping at night and why Paul could not eat or drink of the New Covenant of Christ while he lay blind in Damascus for three days. Since the time Paul wrote his first letter to Timothy, the pathway to salvation has included a time of falling away for all new believers. No one can avoid it. But because of the grace of God, Christ will come to all mankind someday (a time of His choosing) and give them the free gift of salvation:
Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one (Adam) the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.
I would comment more on this subject but available space in this post is running out.
Joe
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You have not rightly understood what Paul is telling us. He is showing us not only how we are raised a spiritual body of believers after our flesh is dead, and also showing us that when the last trumpet sounds our flesh shall also be resurrected immortal & incorruptible that death may be swallowed up by life in Christ.
We don't receive a spiritual body when our body of flesh is resurrected from the grave. Why would our flesh need to be resurrected immortal and incorruptible if we shall be a spiritual body on the new earth? Our spirit through the Spirit of Christ within us has eternal/everlasting life already the moment we are born again of the Spirit of Christ. We are from new birth already spiritually in the Kingdom of God. It is only our flesh that is mortal and corruptible the must be changed, not our spirit.
Carefully read the words of Paul. When our natural body od flesh is dead, it is raised, (not resurrected because out spirit HAS everlasting life) a spiritual body. Our natural body is not our spiritual body, the body of flesh returns to the earth, but the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit returns to God a living soul. The natural body is of the earth, like that of the first man, earthy and from the fall destined to die. The spiritual body we shall be after our physical body is dead shall be as the second man, the Lord from heaven. The spiritual body shall be like they that are heavenly, a celestial body like that of the angels of God in heaven, and we shall as a spiritual body of believers in heaven bear the image of Christ who is heavenly. There must be this transition period because the life we have through the Spirit of Christ within shall never die, and flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God. Since our life in Christ is never ending life through His Spirit when our flesh is dead we must be raised a spiritual body, as living souls already possessing everlasting life but in heaven without physical form.
1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
James 5:7-8 (KJV) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Hosea 6:3 (KJV) Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
Joel 2:23 (KJV) Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
Matthew 13:38-39 (KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mark 13:26 (KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 (KJV) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Dear rwb,
Concerning the resurrection, I am confused by your comments - they just don't make any sense to me.
This is your supporting scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
You said:
He is showing us not only how we are raised a spiritual body of believers after our flesh is dead, and also showing us that when the last trumpet sounds our flesh shall also be resurrected immortal & incorruptible that death may be swallowed up by life in Christ.
When we are born, we have a natural body. When we are resurrected from the grave, we will have a spiritual body. First comes the natural, then comes the spiritual. This concept is used in many teachings of scripture.
Nowhere in scripture does it ever say that our flesh will be resurrected from the grave. It is the person who is resurrected. When a converted believer is resurrected from the grave, they will receive a spiritual body and become a "quickening spirit" instead of a "living soul" who has a natural body.
Being "raised" is no different than being "resurrected".
You later said:
There must be this transition period because the life we have through the Spirit of Christ within shall never die, and flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God. Since our life in Christ is never ending life through His Spirit when our flesh is dead we must be raised a spiritual body, as living souls already possessing everlasting life but in heaven without physical form.
Transition period??? That is not taught in scripture and Paul does not teach it in 1Cor chapter 15. You are way over reading into Paul's comments if you are seeing it in there.
Your beliefs in this area make no sense to me and are not supported by scripture. I don't have any further interest in discussing this subject with you.
You also quoted several verses to support your belief that the Early and Latter Rains represent the harvesting of souls from the grave or something like that - it was hard to follow.
However, I will respond to the verses you quoted:
#1 James 5:7-8 (KJV) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
A converted Elect believer (symbolized by wheat) is the "precious fruit of the earth". The wheat begins its growth when it receives the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is mature and ready for harvest after it receives the Latter Rain. In the verse above, James is teaching unconverted believers who have only had the Early Rain of the Spirit. James is encouraging them to be patience while they wait for the Lord to come with the Latter Rain.
Paul says the same thing here:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
#2 Hosea 6:3 (KJV) Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
The Lord comes to us as RAIN. He comes the first time as the Early Rain and He comes the second time as the Latter Rain.
This scripture applies:
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.
#3 Joel 2:23 (KJV) Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately (in measure), and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
The setting for this verse is the final age. The first part of chapter 2 describes Christ's army (the Elect) who are reigning with Him. Then in verse 18, it says that the Lord will eventually "pity his people" (have mercy upon them). Christ then comes to them as the Early and Latter Rain for their salvation as verse 23 you quoted above says.
#4 Matthew 13:38-39 (KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
This verse comes from the parable of the Wheat and the Tares. It uses the farming analogy to teach its message. The field is the world who is mankind. The "good seed" is the Holy Spirit which is planted within a person when they receive the Early Rain. The seed will then begin growing to produce "wheat" (a child of God). But shortly after the person receives the "good seed" (the Early Rain), Satan will come to the same person "at night" (time of their spiritual blindness) and plant his seed (spirit of anti-Christ) within them, too. Satan's seed will begin growing to produce a "tare" (a worsened child of the devil/man of sin). As the growing season continues, both seeds will grow together within the believer. When the time of the harvest nears, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain upon the person so that the wheat will be made ready for the harvest. When the time of the harvest comes, judgment (fire) will remove the tares from within the person, leaving only the child of God (the Wheat) who is harvested into the barn (Kingdom of Heaven) - this is the same event the verses below describe.
#5 Mark 13:26 (KJV) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
This scripture is presenting the spiritual resurrection of a believer after Christ comes to them a second time and pours out the Latter Rain upon them. It is their moment of salvation. At that time, the child of God is born and is gathered to heaven to dwell with Christ (spiritually speaking). It is the same event described by Peter in Acts 2 when He and the others were converted. It is also the same event that Christ describes in Mat 24:29-31.
This scripture is not teaching about the bodily resurrection or the false teaching of the rapture.
In the scripture above, it uses the spirit world "heaven". In this case, heaven represents the converted believer's new spiritual state of being. In scripture, unbelievers are said to dwell in the sea, carnal unconverted believers are said to dwell upon the earth and converted believers are said to dwell in heaven with Christ.
When the "lost" of the final age are converted as Joel chapter 2 teaches, the newly born child of God will be gathered from the Lake of Fire to dwell with Christ in heaven. Once in heaven, they will join the First Fruits of the harvest and all mankind will be saved.
Joe
What we shall be when we are PHYSICALLY resurrected from the grave is a physical body + the breath of life (spirit) to be a complete living soul. We do not become a spiritual body when we are bodily resurrected immortal and incorruptible, we will have a spirit which is the breath of life just as God created mankind in the beginning when He created a body gave them a spirit (breath of life) and man became a living soul. In the bodily resurrection at the end of days God won't create a body for again, He will resurrect our body (which btw is flesh) that died, but then we shall be immortal & incorruptible, once again complete living souls, not a spiritual body!
Still, its hard for one to understand what is being said, to say the least..
Dear rwb,
1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Paul says that the natural body is "raised a spiritual body". There is no transition period after our resurrection which takes us from a physical body to a spiritual body. The spiritual body is given immediately upon resurrection.
Paul also makes these comments about the physical body in Romans:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Christ delivers us from "the body of this death" upon our resurrection from the grave. No scripture says that Christ will resurrect us and put us back into a physical body. If He does, Paul was misinformed and will be sorely disappointed when he is resurrected from the grave.
Your beliefs in the resurrection are contradicted by scripture. You need to listen to scripture. Do you have ears that can hear?
Joe
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You're going to be disappointed with a body resurrected immortal & incorruptible made alive again through the eternal spirit that returns with Christ??? I somehow don't think so, and I know Paul will not be disappointed to be free of evil, sickness/weakness, and death!
Dear rwb,
You are describing a spiritual body and not a physical body. A physical body needs food, oxygen and a moderate climate in order to survive.
If we are resurrected in a physical body, how are we going to join Christ in the air upon our resurrection? Will the physical body have the super power of flying?
Joe
We go from our mortal body a spiritual body to heaven after our body of flesh has breathed its last. That's because in life the spirit giving our mortal body physical life was born again and has the Holy Spirit within. Our spirit is not our physical body that shall be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. Because our spirit has eternal/everlasting life through the Holy Spirit, so our spirit, unlike our mortal body of flesh doesn't need to be made immortal & incorruptible because our spirit with the Holy Spirit within NEVER dies and shall never be corrupt.
We are resurrected a physical body that shall no longer be mortal, but shall be immortal, and shall no longer be corruptible through sin or illness because it shall be incorruptible. But without the breath of life (spirit) to give our immortal & incorruptible physical body everlasting life, it will be a corpse or a physical body without life. That's why the spiritual body of believers that are with the Lord will return with Him to give our new physical body everlasting life.
There is no such thing as a natural, physical body of flesh & bone called a spiritual body. There is a natural, physical body of flesh and there is a spiritual body without form after our body of flesh has died. The two are not the same! Believers shall be when the last trumpet sounds a resurrected physical body with a breath of life (spirit) to once again become a complete living soul.
Believers both physically dead and those who are still physically alive at His coming shall meet the Lord in the air through the power of God, not through some imagined super-natural power you seem to think we shall have.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Why would our new resurrected immortal and incorruptible body of flesh not be exactly as God created man in the beginning? After all God pronounced all that He created to be "very good"!
Dear rwb,
This is the formula for life:
SPIRIT + PHYSICAL BODY = A LIVING SOUL
or
SPIRIT + SPIRITUAL BODY = A QUICKENING SPIRIT
Scripture doesn't teach that our SPIRIT will have life and consciousness without a body.
You said:
Because our spirit has eternal/everlasting life through the Holy Spirit, so our spirit, unlike our mortal body of flesh doesn't need to be made immortal & incorruptible because our spirit with the Holy Spirit within NEVER dies and shall never be corrupt.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts: even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Whether a person is saved or not, their spirit "goes upward" and returns to God after they die. Being saved, as you suggest, does not play into it. Without a body, an individual's spirit will not have any consciousness of existence. If their spirit did, a person would have memories of the time before God put their spirit into a physical body - and that would be before sin caused them to spiritually die.
Because of Adam's sin though, death was passed down to all mankind. When we die, we are "perished" and have no existence. In other words, we are in the "grave". Because death is the fate that awaits all mankind (condemned already, John 3:18), Christ came to make it possible for all mankind to have a new birth and a new life.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
With Christ's death on the cross, Christ earned the keys to death and hell (the unseen place). This gives Christ the legal authority to resurrect all mankind from the grave. But having the same sinful life that mankind has now is not salvation. Christ is now working spiritually within mankind to give us all a new spiritual birth. Christ will individually perform this work within (spiritually) all mankind before the ages come to an end. Only after the last person in the final age has been given a more abundant life (a life free from sin and a restored relationship with the Father) will Christ's reign & work finally come to an end. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (which now contains all mankind) to His Father and God will then be "all in all" (1Cor 15:20-28).
The completed work of Christ will then give glory to His Father:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
You said:
There is a natural, physical body of flesh and there is a spiritual body without form after our body of flesh has died.
There is no scripture that supports your statement above. By believing as you do, you have fallen for the same lie that Satan used on Eve:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
All mankind has sinned and all mankind will die. When a saved or unsaved person dies, they will be dead and will remain so until the resurrection of the dead occurs. Christ gave His life on the cross to earn this authority to resurrect us from the grave. If we have life and consciousness without the resurrection, then why do we need the resurrection?
1Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
When Christ was resurrected, He "rose from the dead". Though His spirit had returned to God, Christ was literally dead and in the grave. Christ remained in this state of death until the Father resurrected Him three days later. If Christ did not really die, then He did not make the perfect and final sacrifice that mankind needs for salvation.
You said:
Believers both physically dead and those who are still physically alive at His coming shall meet the Lord in the air through the power of God, not through some imagined super-natural power you seem to think we shall have.
A physical body has no power of its own to rise to meet Christ in the air but a spiritual body does.
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel...
When a saved person is resurrected from their state of death, they will have a spiritual body similar to the one Christ was given upon His resurrection.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this HOPE in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
The "hope" mentioned above is in the resurrection from the grave. Until the bodily resurrection occurs, the world cannot recognize them for who they really are (sons of God) because they remain in a physical body. If the Elect are resurrected in the same physical body, how is the world ever going to recognize who they are? But since the Elect will be "like Him" (spiritually and bodily), the world will then be able to recognize them as the "sons of God".
You said:
Why would our new resurrected immortal and incorruptible body of flesh not be exactly as God created man in the beginning? After all God pronounced all that He created to be "very good"!
Adam and Eve were created as a "marred vessel" of clay.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Christ declare it "good" because it was perfect for His purpose of making many new children who have a knowledge of good and evil. However, it was still the same wretched "body of this death" that Paul called it in Rom 7:24. The body that Adam was originally given was the same body in which he left the Garden of Eden. Why do you think his body was different? From Adam's sin, Adam spiritually died - he did not physically die.
Adam's body of marred clay will not be the same body that the Elect will receive upon their resurrection from the grave. Their body will be a gloriously spiritual body like the one Christ received upon His resurrection.
Joe
NO! The Lord from heaven alone is the last Adam, a quickening Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:45-47 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Mankind in this age or the age to come is NEVER a quickening Spirit! We are and always shall be in life a physical body with a spirit = living souls. In death we are no longer living souls, we become a dead corpse physically, but if we died having the Spirit of Christ within us, they we are still a living soul without physical form and ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers. Because Christ alone through His Spirit gives life (quickeneth) whosoever He will.
John 5:21 (KJV) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Every spirit returns to God who gave it, but will the spirit of man return to God spiritually alive through Christ's Spirit in us, or will we be as those in unbelief who are said to be in silence and darkness in the graves? The life we have when we believe in Christ is either forever and shall never die, or we should throw away our Bible because it is not truth. I believe Christ when He says I have everlasting life through Him, and that not even death can keep me from His love.
Dear rwb,
You said:
NO! The Lord from heaven alone is the last Adam, a quickening Spirit.
We will all become "like Him" spiritually & bodily because we will be "in Christ".
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
There really is no point in continuing our discussion since there is no sign that I am going to be able to help you (which is my only purpose for posting with you). We have also strayed far from the topic which others may not appreciate. I am going to move onto another thread in the next few days (as the Lord wills).
Thanks for the discussion.
Joe
ScottA
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What's hard about "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled." is that the world did not witness it.
Which--is so stupid--because it was not supposed to:
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation...
And then foretold "false teachers" brought in "destructive doctrines"--which most have believed...and the rest is history.
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