What does Christ mean by 'this generation shall not pass'?

[Hobie]

We see it in several text...
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What are everyone's thoughts...

 

[Hobie]

Its a hard text, but there must be someone thats looked into this.....

 

[MA2444]

Its a hard text, but there must be someone thats looked into this.....

I went through an online study of this and other things before and the gist of it came out to be,

Matthew 24:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.../KJV

It's tied to the fig tree parable. The fig tree represents Israel. When (Israel's) branh is tender (Young) and starts getting leaves, then the time is close. When was Israel young and beginning to bear leaves? May 14th 1948, right?

It is this generation which will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. In other words, anyone born after May 14th 1948 is in the last generation. We are it!

 

[Bob Estey]

We see it in several text...
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What are everyone's thoughts...

It just means this will happen before people living today have died, generally speaking.

 

[Hobie]

Would you say Christ was talking of the generation of the last days..

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

We know the following Daniel 7:12: - "As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

We also know from the following Matthew 24:32: - “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.", where summer is the season mentioned in Daniel 7:12 and from Revelations that season has a duration of 1,000 years.

If the summer season of harvest is fulfilled during this 1,000 year period while the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit, the duration of the "generation" in Matthew 24:34 cannot be a descendant generation as many "scholars" suggest but rather the generation/age is the whole of the Seventh Age. "genea" has the embedded Greek Root G:1074 which has the following Strong definition: -

G:1074 γενεά genea (ghen-eh-ah'); from (a presumed derivative of) G:1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons): –– KJV - age, generation, nation, time.

The "Season and a time" spans the whole of the Seventh Age. A descendant generation can only have a maximum duration of only 120 years. Seems like many people have a wrong understanding of what God's Seventh Age timeline looks like.

Shalom

 

[Jack]

"What does Christ mean by 'this generation shall not pass'?"

The generation that witnesses Israel recover Jerusalem! That's us!

 

[Wick Stick]

It would be easier to understand if we put it in the context of other Jewish books, especially those that were popular in 1st century Judea. In Jubilees, 1Enoch and the Melchizedek Scroll (DSS 11Q13), Jewish prophecies were organized into days (1 generation), weeks (7 generations), and jubilees (49-50 generations).

When we put Matthew 24 into THAT context, it's most likely that Jesus is pointing to a specific generation from a specific prophecy.

So what was Jesus referring to?" I think the Melchizedek Scroll and 1Enoch Chapter 93 are leading candidates as answers to that question.

 

[marks]

We see it in several text...
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What are everyone's thoughts...

Generation . . . genea . . . that which has been generated. This is . . . all the people who were born in a certain time frame, for instance, the Millennials, or GenX. This is also . . . all those alive in a certain time frame, "among whom you shine as lights amidst a perverse generation". This is also, all those alive from a common ancestor, a people group, or nation.

The word is translated in each of these ways.

So the question is, which is right for this place? Context is king, as they say!

"This generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled."

In that He said, "This generation", "this" is to say, a generation close, near, "This one", as opposed to "that one", one that is further away.

If Jesus meant those who were born at a certain time, or those alive at a certain time, that time being in the distant future, according to the rules of Koine Greek it would have needed "that generation". The only way He could be speaking of one close at hand, "This" generation, that leaves the 3rd meaning, all who came from a common ancestor, that is, the nation, the Israelites, the children of Jacob.

Does this fit?

Jesus had just finished prophesying that the nation would not be eradicated:

Matthew 24:21-22 LITV
21) For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.
22) And except those days were shortened, not any flesh would be saved. But on account of the elect, those days will be shortened.

And He goes on to reaffirm His promise:

Matthew 24:34 LITV
Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things have occurred.

"This generation" means one close at hand. The only generation close at hand to Jesus, who would be present at the end of the age, is the nation, Israel.

Much love!

 

[rwb]

We see it in several text...
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What are everyone's thoughts...

I believe Christ is giving comfort and assurance to His Church as She seeks to build the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel is preached unto all the world. "This generation" is the "chosen generation" that shall never end. This generation began with the first century Jewish disciples faithfully taking the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to all nations, and through them first the spiritual Kingdom of God began to grow and spread to become an innumerable multitude. The spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will not be complete until the last Gentile to be saved has been born again into the Kingdom.

This assurance to "this generation" of man chosen by God to come into His Kingdom is truly a blessing for the Church on this earth, where it is through much affliction "great tribulation" that we spiritually enter the Kingdom of God. Knowing that there is nothing on this earth, no force that will prevent the Church that Christ came to build from being complete, gives the saints throughout the ages courage to continue in our mission, given us by Christ to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to all the world as a witness for Christ to every nation.

Some believe "this generation" speaks of all throughout the ages that are of their father the Devil, an evil generation. While it is true that evil people under the power of Satan shall grow stronger and stronger as time marches on, and though they bring must harm to the Church on earth, they will not be able to stop the spread of the Gospel unto all the world that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven shall be complete. We know this without being warned they will always be against Christ and Christians on this earth. Which is why the words of comforting promise that "the chosen generation" as "this generation" shall not end, and Christians will continue to be on this earth until the end of days when the last trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer.

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

 

[rwb]

I went through an online study of this and other things before and the gist of it came out to be,

Matthew 24:
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.../KJV

It's tied to the fig tree parable. The fig tree represents Israel. When (Israel's) branh is tender (Young) and starts getting leaves, then the time is close. When was Israel young and beginning to bear leaves? May 14th 1948, right?

It is this generation which will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. In other words, anyone born after May 14th 1948 is in the last generation. We are it!

I agree this generation is connected to the parable of the fig tree. But Christ was speaking to those living in the first century AD of things that they too must endure as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached unto all the world.

When Christ told His disciples to "learn a parable of the fig tree", I also believe this is referring to Israel in unbelief. These first century Jewish disciples had heard Christ curse the fig tree and saying, "Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away?. (Mt 21:19)

After cursing the fig tree (Israel in unbelief), now Christ is telling them the fig tree would again have life, like that of a tree in the spring when it begins to grow. When they shall see (know/understand) all these things they would know IT is near, at the doors.

Matthew 24:33 (KJV) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Remember Christ is speaking first to these first Jewish disciples of things they too would have understanding of. What is "IT" that is near, at the doors? "It" cannot be of Christ coming again in the clouds, because these first century disciples are long ago dead and will not be alive on earth to physically see or even know of the second coming of Christ.

What they would see/know/have understanding of is the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with. Seeing life come to Israel in unbelief through the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached to them, is fulfillment of the prophetic words that speak of the Kingdom of God coming with great power through the Holy Spirit to not only the Jews that turn to Christ to be saved, but also to Gentiles with them who believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached through the power of the Holy Spirit.

We find convincing proof of words of Christ coming to pass on the day of Pentecost, when after hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached about three thousand Jews were convicted, repented and turned to Christ for everlasting life. (Acts 2)

 

[rwb]

Would you say Christ was talking of the generation of the last days..

I'm not sure who you're asking, but I believe "this generation" is the "chosen generation" that is inclusive of Christians from the beginning of time to the end of days.

 

[Johann]

We see it in several text...
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What are everyone's thoughts...

THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN
“AND THEN SHALL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY. AND WHEN THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH. AND HE SPAKE TO THEM A PARABLE; BEHOLD THE FIG TREE, AND ALL THE TREES; WHEN THEY NOW SHOOT FORTH, YE SEE AND KNOW OF YOUR OWN SELVES THAT SUMMER IS NOW NIGH AT HAND SO LIKEWISE YE, WHEN YE SEE THESE THINGS COME TO PASS, KNOW YE THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NIGH AT HAND. VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.” Luke 21:27 to 32.

“ When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.” Matthew 25:31.

This has nothing to do with the redemption of the Church. Members of the Body of Christ are already redeemed.

“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved. In Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” Ephesians 1:5 to 7.

“Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:14.

“And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Ephesians 4:30.

The bodies of the members of the Body of Christ will be redeemed by the appearing of Christ for His Church. Christ is not “the Son of man” to His Church.

When Christ comes for His Church He will find more Christians on this earth, and more faith on this earth, than ever before. There are more genuine Christians in Chicago today than ever lived at any one time in Jerusalem, Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, or in any other city. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Church there will be many faithful saints here. But when He comes as the Son of man to the earth, He will not find faith on the earth. Luke 18:8. Christ is not coming to the earth for the Church which is His Body. He is not coming to the earth for His Church. His Church is going to rise to meet Him. Christ is not coming for His Church as “the Son of man.” That is His title to Israel. Note again, Matthew 25:31—“When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.”

THE LAST DAYS OF ACTS
Now let us consider the last days of Acts 2:16 and 17 and Acts 15:16.

“But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”

“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up.”

These verses should have very serious, diligent, prayerful consideration.

Here we have prophecies of Israel’s Old Testament prophets concerning Israel’s last days. The two prophets are Joel and Amos, Read carefully the second chapter of Joel and the last part of Amos, chapter nine, and you will learn that both of these Israelitish prophets wrote concerning the coming kingdom age of Israel. This present age of grace, during which the Body of Christ is being completed, is not Israel’s kingdom age; and therefore, neither Joel nor Amos was referring to this dispensation. Neither Joel nor Amos said one word about the beginning of this age, or about the course of this age, or about the culmination of this age. They were the sons of men in other ages to whom the Holy Spirit revealed nothing concerning “the Church of the Mystery.”

Note Colossians 1:24 to 26.

“Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His Body’s sake, which is the Church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints.”

This agrees with Ephesians 3:5 to 8.

“Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. That the Gentiles should be joint-heirs, and of the same (Joint) Body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel; Whereunto I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto Me by the effectual working of His power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.”

Truth concerning the Joint-Body, the Church of the Mystery, is called “the unsearchable (unprophesied) riches of Christ.” This truth was God’s mystery, God’s secret at the time Joel and Amos wrote concerning Israel’s “last days”. They knew nothing and therefore they wrote nothing concerning the Joint-Body of Ephesians 3:6, the Church of the Mystery.

Then surely we know that no member of the Body of Christ is receiving the Holy Spirit or any other spiritual blessing in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. If members of Christ’s Body are being blessed with all spiritual blessings, in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, or are becoming members of the Church of the Mystery, in fulfillment of Amos’ prophecy, then Paul was deluded when he wrote Colossians and Ephesians.

No! Paul did not err. He wrote to save us from the faulty dispensationalism of the present day Fundamentalists who teach that “the Church of the Mystery”, “the dispensation of the mystery” (Ephesians 3:9), “the dispensation of the grace of God for Gentiles” (Ephesians 3:1 to 3), “the unsearchable riches of Christ”, began on a Jewish holy day, Pentecost, when Peter used the keys of the kingdom of heaven to devout Jews from every nation under heaven. (Acts 2:5.

It Is the Last Time

We read in the Bible of “the end of the age”, “the last days”, “then cometh the end”, and “the last time.” We quote I John 2:18 and 19. “LITTLE CHILDREN, IT IS THE LAST TIME; AND AS YE HAVE HEARD THAT ANTICHRIST SHALL COME, EVEN NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTICHRISTS; WHEREBY WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST

bereanbiblesociety.org

Link

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We see it in several text...
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

What are everyone's thoughts...

Matthew 24 has presented a complex prophecy that many Christians and scholars have wrestled with.
The disciples asked a loaded 3-part question. The answered spans the entire Christian age before His return. His prophecy about the Temple was fulfilled in 70 AD. But the question of His Second Coming a d the end was not answered in 70 AD.
Notice that in Matt. 24:1-2, Jesus was walking and just left the Temple. He described the destruction of the Temple in verse 2. Then in verse 3, he was at a different location, not walking but apparently a different time, a different conversation..he was sitting on the Mt. of Olives and the disciples approached Him.
Now the Temple was probably a few hundred yards away from where he walk over to sit down, still, there was a separation. We read through this chapter in five minutes but the material could have been condensed conversations that spanned hours?

* He did not return in 70AD.
* It wasn't the end of the age.
* There weren't earthquakes , famines in various places.
* Nations did not war against nations, it was just Rome destroying Jerusalem.
* The Gospel was not preached to the entire world - it was just getting started.
* The Sun did not turn dark nor did the stars fall from the sky.

So Jesus must have been talking about three different time periods ( which all happen to involve tribulation). In 70 AD it is said that the Romans killed 1 million Jews. That is a large portion. But the great stress described in verse 21 that was "never to be equaled", could not be describing one nation that suffered only 1 million deaths!
The Great Tribulation involves the entire world of now 8 billion. So 1 million is small change compared to even WWII which had upwards to 80 million deaths. WWI had about 18 million deaths.
His Second Coming, this Great Tribulation discussed is still not the end of time either. A Millennial Kingdom follows the GT, which after that is another tribulation period. So Jesus is actually discussing three time periods in one conversation.
A generation can be viewed as a lifetime or an age., the Christian age (as 1 Peter 2:9 states).
Since He is talking about three different time periods, "this generation" must be referring to the Christian Age, the entire Body of Christ.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I'm not sure who you're asking, but I believe "this generation" is the "chosen generation" that is inclusive of Christians from the beginning of time to the end of days.

Dear rwb,
I have read your posts and your understanding is very close to what Christ meant. I agree that Christ is speaking about the "chosen generation" as Peter said. That generation consists of all the Elect who have lived since the Day of Pentecost up until the last Elect person is converted at the literal end of this age.

Most believers have difficulty with "this generation" because they do not have "eyes that can see" (spiritually). As a result, they believe that Mat 24 is teaching about outward physical world events which will only occur at the literal end of this age. However, Mat 24 teaches no such thing.

Christ's words are "spirit" (John 6:63) and so is the New Covenant. It is the Old Covenant that is physical and outward. The prophecies which apply to the Old Covenant were all physically fulfilled with the last of them being completed at the cross. But since the New Covenant is spiritual, all of the prophecies that apply to that covenant will be fulfilled spiritually within a person. They are not fulfilled with "observation" (Luke 17:20).

A person must "rightly divide the Word" by the Old and New Covenants or they will have no ability to make any sense of what the prophecies of scripture actually teach.

Here is how Paul spiritually understands Mat 24:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The "ends of the ages" will come upon each and every Elect person when they are given the Latter Rain of the Spirit and are converted (the second coming of Christ). All the "signs of the times" which lead up to their conversion teach spiritual things that they will each experience between the time they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit and the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

The apostles received the Early Rain of the Spirit during Christ's earthly ministry. That is when they first recognized Jesus as the Christ and when they first called Him "Lord".

This verse applies:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

At the time the apostles were given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they received a "measure of faith" and certain spiritual gifts. However, they remained spiritually blind and could only see Christ "in the flesh". This spiritual phrase of "in the flesh" means that a person can only understand Christ in a carnal way rather than in spiritual way. When the apostles received the Latter Rain of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost their spiritual blindness was healed and the teachings of Christ finally opened up to their understanding. Only then were they able to "see" spiritually and understand Matthew 24.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
I have read your posts and your understanding is very close to what Christ meant. I agree that Christ is speaking about the "chosen generation" as Peter said. That generation consists of all the Elect who have lived since the Day of Pentecost up until the last Elect person is converted at the literal end of this age.

Most believers have difficulty with "this generation" because they do not have "eyes that can see" (spiritually). As a result, they believe that Mat 24 is teaching about outward physical world events which will only occur at the literal end of this age. However, Mat 24 teaches no such thing.

Christ's words are "spirit" (John 6:63) and so is the New Covenant. It is the Old Covenant that is physical and outward. The prophecies which apply to the Old Covenant were all physically fulfilled with the last of them being completed at the cross. But since the New Covenant is spiritual, all of the prophecies that apply to that covenant will be fulfilled spiritually within a person. They are not fulfilled with "observation" (Luke 17:20).

A person must "rightly divide the Word" by the Old and New Covenants or they will have no ability to make any sense of what the prophecies of scripture actually teach.

Here is how Paul spiritually understands Mat 24:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The "ends of the ages" will come upon each and every Elect person when they are given the Latter Rain of the Spirit and are converted (the second coming of Christ). All the "signs of the times" which lead up to their conversion teach spiritual things that they will each experience between the time they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit and the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

The apostles received the Early Rain of the Spirit during Christ's earthly ministry. That is when they first recognized Jesus as the Christ and when they first called Him "Lord".

This verse applies:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

At the time the apostles were given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they received a "measure of faith" and certain spiritual gifts. However, they remained spiritually blind and could only see Christ "in the flesh". This spiritual phrase of "in the flesh" means that a person can only understand Christ in a carnal way rather than in spiritual way. When the apostles received the Latter Rain of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost their spiritual blindness was healed and the teachings of Christ finally opened up to their understanding. Only then were they able to "see" spiritually and understand Matthew 24.

Joe

We are very close in how we have come to understand the Discourse. My only question, (and I'm not saying you are wrong) regards two separate fillings of the Holy Spirit. I too believe the early rain is spiritually fulfilled after the resurrection of Christ. Before He ascended into heaven He first went into that part of the grave, known of Old as "Abraham's bosom" to set free those who died in faith waiting for the promised Messiah/Saviour to come. Through the Spirit of Christ those captives of the grave ascended with Christ to heaven a spiritual body of believers. That IMO is the first rain to produce spiritual offspring (elect of God) for the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The latter rain shall be fulfilled physically in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer. Or as some translations say "there should be delay no longer." When the last trumpet sounds the Kingdom of God shall be complete, and living forever with Christ on the new earth shall have come.

 

[FaithWillDo]

We are very close in how we have come to understand the Discourse.

Dear rwb,
You said:
I too believe the early rain is spiritually fulfilled after the resurrection of Christ. Before He ascended into heaven He first went into that part of the grave, known of Old as "Abraham's bosom" to set free those who died in faith waiting for the promised Messiah/Saviour to come. Through the Spirit of Christ those captives of the grave ascended with Christ to heaven a spiritual body of believers. That IMO is the first rain to produce spiritual offspring (elect of God) for the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.

Firstly, after Christ was crucified, He was dead. He descended into the grave and taught no one. He had no consciousness until He was resurrected three days later. In other words, Christ actually died for the sins of the world and was "perished" for three days. It is a lie from Satan that a person has eternal consciousness after they physically die. It is the same lie that Satan used on Eve in the Garden. Until a person is resurrected from the grave, they will remain in a state of death and have no consciousness. All the stories that we hear about "after death experiences" are either hoaxes or tricks of the mind.

These verses apply:

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Psa 13;3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither, have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

I know it is very comforting at funerals for the preacher to say that the loved one who died is not actually dead but is up in heaven looking down upon the funeral service. However, this is completely untrue. Until the bodily resurrection from the grave occurs at the literal end of this age, no one will be alive up in heaven. Peter, Paul, etc. are still dead (asleep) and are waiting for the resurrection of the dead:

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

You said:
The latter rain shall be fulfilled physically in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer.

The analogy of the Early and Latter Rains is contained in the farming analogy used in scripture to teach the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel. The truth that it teaches is very concealed in scripture because it is at the core of the "great mystery of Christ and His church" (Eph 3:32).

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the latter and former RAIN unto the earth.

When the Lord comes to an unbeliever, He gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. However, it is only a small amount of the Spirit:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causes to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the Latter rain, in the first month.

The Early Rain will give the unbeliever a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. With the Early Rain, the person will become a "believer" and call Jesus "Lord". At that time, the person will be "called out from the world" and will enter the church.

But since the Early Rain is given in "measure", the new believer is left spiritually blind and carnally minded. They will only be able to see Christ "in the flesh". Because of these spiritual weaknesses, the new believer will quickly and easily fall under Satan's deceptions (via the spirit of anti-Christ). After they do, the Abomination of Desolation will occur within the new believer (God's temple) and they will fall from grace.

Scripture calls a believer in this fallen spiritual condition a Man of Sin, a false prophet, a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns/Crowns and a minister of Satan. They will remain in this fallen away condition until Christ "comes again" and pours out the Latter Rain.

After Christ gives a fallen away believer the Latter Rain, their spiritual blindness will be healed. This is when they receive "ears that can hear and eyes that can see". It is at this time that they will have spiritual understanding of scripture. When this happens, one of the first things they will see is the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred within themselves.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

After the believer has this new knowledge of the truth, the judgment of Christ will immediately fall which will remove the spirit of anti-Christ from within the believer and cast him into the Lake of Fire for destruction (spiritually speaking). Also, at this time, the person's worsen carnal nature (symbolized by Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot, Sodom, Old Jerusalem and Damascus) will likewise be "taken" and destroyed:

Mat 24:40 Then shall two (contained in one believer) be in the field; the one shall be taken (man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (child of God). 41 Two women (contained in one believer) shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (Great Harlot), and the other left (nature of the Holy Spirit).

When judgment falls on a newly born again believer, both the spirit of anti-Christ and the Holy Spirit are contained within one person (child of the Devil, child of God). This is also true of the spiritual nature within the person (carnal nature/nature of the Holy Spirit). After this judgment is complete, the new born again believer will be "converted" from being a child of the Devil to being a child of God. It is at this point that the person's salvation is eternally secured.

As for your comment on the "last trumpet", it sounds to announce the bodily resurrection of the just and unjust.

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

After all mankind has been resurrected from the grave, they will appear before Christ (White Throne) and He will separate them as sheep (the Elect) from goats (all others).

However, the trumpet you are referencing is not the "last" trumpet, it is the seventh trumpet. The seven trumpet sounds to announce that conversion has come to the believer. It will sound for all the Elect when their conversion/salvation comes to them.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The "mystery of God" is finished because the newly born again believer will have "eyes that can see".

Most of the teachings of Christ (parables, analogies, types) all teach certain aspects of the pathway to salvation which begins with the Early Rain and ends with the Latter Rain/Judgment. Since scripture teaches its truth "a little here and a little there", a full understanding of the pathway to salvation can only come when all those teachings are summed up into a whole:

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared (by Satan), and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

The truth of God is only revealed to the converted Elect. For all others, it is purposely concealed.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Firstly, after Christ was crucified, He was dead. He descended into the grave and taught no one. He had no consciousness until He was resurrected three days later. In other words, Christ actually died for the sins of the world and was "perished" for three days. It is a lie from Satan that a person has eternal consciousness after they physically die. It is the same lie that Satan used on Eve in the Garden. Until a person is resurrected from the grave, they will remain in a state of death and have on consciousness. All the stories that we hear about "after death experiences" are either hoaxes or tricks of the mind.

Christ was physically dead, but His spirit was given into the Father's hand. The spirit of Christ returned to God alive in the same way every born again believers spirit returns to God. We are alive after physical death spiritually, just as Christ was, through His Spirit within us. This is why Christ tells us that whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Christ would not give us this promise if death of our flesh means that we perish.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When the Lord comes to an unbeliever, He gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. However, it is only a small amount of the Spirit:

When we believe in Christ for salvation, it is because we have been born again through His Spirit in us. I've never before heard anyone say new born Christians have only "a small amount of the Spirit." Either we are born again through His Spirit in us, or we neither know nor can we enter the Kingdom of God.

The Early Rain will give the unbeliever a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. With the Early Rain, the person will become a "believer" and call Jesus "Lord". At that time, the person will be "called out from the world" and will enter the church.

Faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit in us. We either have faith to believe in Christ for everlasting life when we are born again from above or we don't.

Galatians 5:22 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

But since the Early Rain is given in "measure", the new believer is left spiritually blind and carnal minded.

Again, there is no such thing as a spiritually blind or carnally minded believer. There are only those who profess to be believers, that are spiritually blind and carnally minded.

I've taken us far enough off the topic being discussed, so I will end here agreeing to disagree with your doctrine.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I've taken us far enough off the topic being discussed, so I will end here agreeing to disagree with your doctrine.

Dear rwb,
You said,
Christ was physically dead, but His spirit was given into the Father's hand. The spirit of Christ returned to God alive in the same way every born again believers spirit returns to God. We are alive after physical death spiritually, just as Christ was, through His Spirit within us. This is why Christ tells us that whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Christ would not give us this promise if death of our flesh means that we perish.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes, our spirit returns to God upon our death but without a body, we have no consciousness.

Let me ask you this: when your spirit was created by God in heaven, did you have consciousness? The scripture says that our spirit "returns" to God where it was created. But until you were born with a body, you had no consciousness. You were not a living soul until God placed your spirit in a body.

Here is when a person has life and consciousness:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground (our body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (our spirit); and man became a LIVING SOUL (individual consciousness).

Even the devils mentioned in the verse below understood that without a body, there is no individual consciousness (life):

Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

If the devils were simply cast out, their spirit would have returned to God and they would have died. So rather than dying, the devils asked to go into the herd of swine. Of course, this story is also a "type" which teaches a spiritual truth beyond what literally happened.

You also quoted:
John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do not all believers die at some point? Yes, of course they do. The death that Christ was speaking of in this verse is the spiritual death that comes from sin. Those who "liveth" (those who are converted) will never spiritually die again because they are washed in the blood of Christ.

You said:
When we believe in Christ for salvation, it is because we have been born again through His Spirit in us. I've never before heard anyone say new born Christians have only "a small amount of the Spirit." Either we are born again through His Spirit in us, or we neither know nor can we enter the Kingdom of God.

After Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will have a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. At this point, they are justified by the faith they were given (just as OT saints were) and are saved - HOWEVER, they are not yet converted. To be converted, they must wait on the Lord to return with the Baptism of the Spirit (the Latter Rain) and judgment (the Day of the Lord).

1Cor 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These comments by Paul were addressed to the Corinthian church who had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. They were "called to be saints" (verse 2) but were not saints yet. For the ones who are one of the Elect, Christ will come to them a second time with the Latter Rain of the Spirit which will make them blameless for their day of judgment (the Day of the Lord) which immediately follows the Latter Rain.

This truth is also taught by the marriage analogy. When Christ gives a person the Early Rain, they are engaged to Christ. Christ then leaves with the promise to return at some future time to collect his chaste virgin and take her to the marriage ceremony. The marriage analogy is used by Paul and by the Parable of the Ten Virgins.

In the parable, only the Wise Virgins (the Elect) are given the extra flask of oil (represents the anointing of the Latter Rain of the Spirit) so that they are ready for the Bridegroom to return.

Since the Early Rain of the Spirit is only given in a small measure,...

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causes to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the Latter rain, in the first month.

it will leave the new believer spiritually blind (taught by Paul's conversion in Acts 9 & the healing of the blind man in Mark 8:21-25). For this reason, all Ten Virgins fall asleep (loss of salvation) at night (time of spiritual blindness). In other words, none of the Ten Virgins remain "chaste" while they wait for the Bridegroom to return. Later, when the call goes out at "midnight" (deepest part of a person's spiritual blindness) which announces that the Bridegroom is returning, the Wise Virgins use their extra oil (the Latter Rain) to make themselves "chaste" again. Only the Wise Virgins are able to go out and meet the Bridegroom (second coming of Christ) for the wedding.

Salvation comes to a person only if they are given both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (James 5:7). The Foolish Virgins (the many called but not chosen) will not be saved before they die because they will not receive the Latter Rain. They will receive their portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46) in the Lake of Fire.

You said:
Faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit in us. We either have faith to believe in Christ for everlasting life when we are born again from above or we don't.

Galatians 5:22 (KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

No one has any faith in Christ UNTIL Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, they will have a measure of faith because it is the Spirit which gives it to them (the verse you quoted).

These verses apply:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Christ gives the Spirit to a person solely because of His grace and He does so at a time of His own choosing. The person has no say in the matter. If Christ waited on a person to ask for the Spirit, they would never ask because no one "seeketh after God".

You said:
Again, there is no such thing as a spiritually blind or carnally minded believer. There are only those who profess to be believers, that are spiritually blind and carnally minded.

You need to study Paul's conversion in Acts 9 which Paul says is the pattern for salvation (1Tim 1:16). When Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road, Paul became blind to symbolize his spiritual blindness. The scales only fell off Paul's eyes after he received the Latter Rain three days later.

Also in Mark 8:21-25, Christ gives takes the blind man out of the city and gives him the Early Rain. But the first healing leaves the blind man near-sighted. Then, after the second healing (the Latter Rain), the blind man was made whole.

If you have no further interest in knowing more, please don't respond to this post. The truth of God's Word is precious and should not be cast to those who have no interest.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Yes, our spirit returns to God upon our death but without a body, we have no consciousness.

Let me ask you this: when your spirit was created by God in heaven, did you have consciousness? The scripture says that our spirit "returns" to God where it was created. But until you were born with a body, you had no consciousness. You were not a living soul until God placed your spirit in a body.

You're not getting the power of the life giving Holy Spirit within you! I shall be spiritually alive after my flesh breathes its last through the power of the Spirit from Christ within me. I know this with blessed assurance because Christ has promised His Spirit will not leave us, but shall be within us until we receive our resurrected physical body changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We became complete living souls when God breathed the breath of life (spirit) into our body of flesh yes, but that does not mean that we are no longer a living soul after physical death through the Spirit of Christ. To be a living soul there must be life. This life can be physical with body plus spirit, or this life can be spiritual without physical form in heaven through Christ's Spirit within us.

If this were not true Christ would not have said the life we have through Him is everlasting and shall NEVER die.

Do not all believers die at some point? Yes, of course they do. The death that Christ was speaking of in this verse is the spiritual death that comes from sin. Those who "liveth" (those who are converted) will never spiritually die again because they are washed in the blood of Christ.

Physically yes! There shall be no spiritual death for those who have the life giving Spirit of Christ within them. Only our physical body is destined to death, because our flesh from the fall is mortal and corrupted by pain, illness and death. Not so of the spirit in man with the Holy Spirit in them. The spirit in believers is eternal/everlasting and shall NEVER die. Christ does not say we will never die AGAIN! NO! He says whoever lives and believes in Him has eternal/everlasting life and they shall NEVER die period! That's because Christ knows whoever has been born again of His Spirit within them shall never spiritually die, because in Christ the only death we are destined to is natural physical death.

No one has any faith in Christ UNTIL Christ gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain, they will have a measure of faith because it is the Spirit which gives it to them (the verse you quoted).

Yes, all who have been born again through the Spirit of Christ have the Spirit within them. They are the firstfruits of spiritual resurrection after the physical body dies.