What does the Kingdom of God mean to you?

[Miss Hepburn]

Give me an example of the "massacring of whole villages of innocent people." Your just saying it does not make it so.

True. And it doesn't mean it isn't true, no matter what I say about something just because someone
can't find it written ---I digress about generalities.

That's funny I don't see my answer posted hours ago.

Suffice it to say then - I'll get back to you - anyone else that has time to answer, will save me valuable time researching --thanks.
I really thought it was common knowledge - you know Crusades and all..wasn't prepared to have to look it up for someone in dusty books
I read years ago.
I do have a feeling that if I quote book and author and you even looked up the
bibliograpgy - it would not mean much to you - would I be correct? Before I start what I don't have time for.

you all are sinners,come from groups that have done terrible things......you spend to much time tring to be bible teachers,not enough time giving all you have ..and having faith that god will take care of you if you stopped supporting the evil things from the power we call america...[all the saints will be fooled dah who do you think they are look in the mirror we are in the same boat here and the wrath of god will come to us for good reason that we are lost]and you all think you got the tidbits to follow them that say here he is there he is...wow to you all for time is short and grief will be high ..and all you do is fight over the milk .......................................

Did I see you on TV in a pickup camper with signs written all over it?
It also had incorrect grammar and spelling errors. Looked the same.

I'm a Bible student, not teacher - I have only faith that God is taking care of me - no one else is! I don't
support evil things. The wrath of God is not coming after me - for Pete's sake. I am His beloved child.
I know time is short - grief is not high - and no one is fighting over milk.
I have not come from any group.

I have noticed that the name fighter was a good choice.

 

[Christina]

Awe sometimes it doesnt take a bible teacher to know the truth wisdom often comes out of the mouth of babes
I love this post miss Hepburn you are so right God Wrath is not coming after you. You understand his grace and love ...

 

[EAHARA]

Awe sometimes it doesnt take a bible teacher to know the truth wisdom often comes out of the mouth of babes

I love this post miss Hepburn you are so right God Wrath is not coming after you. You understand his grace and love ...

The Crusades was the response of the Church to the Muslims taking over the known world at the time by the sword.

Perhaps you would prefer to be speaking Arabic and worshiping the moon god?

 

[Christina]

The Crusades was the response of the Church to the Muslims taking over the known world at the time by the sword.

Perhaps you would prefer to be speaking Arabic and worshiping the moon god?

I have no idea why you are replying to my post I never said a thing about the crusades I was simply replying to a single statement by miss Heburn .... I know what the crusades were ... If you are trying to prove the Catholic church doesnt have its own bloody history. Must be more brain washing you deny the parts of scriprure that contradict your religion why stop there deny history also.
Thats what religion denominations do deny anything contrary to their man made beliefs.

 

[EAHARA]

I have no idea why you are replying to my post I never said a thing about the crusades I was simply replying to a single statement by miss Heburn .... I know what the crusades were ... If you are trying to prove the Catholic church doesnt have its own bloody history. Must be more brain washing you deny the parts of scriprure that contradict your religion why stop there deny history also. Thats what religion denominations do deny anything contrary to their man made beliefs.

I am not denying that the Church has had a few incidents in which men, being guided by carnal lusts rather than the Holy Spirit, did evil. I was speaking to Miss Hepburn about his insistence that the Church routinely massacred innocent people, such as in the Crusades. That is not what the Crusades was about at all. It was about meeting the Muslims with force to stop them from taking over all of Europe.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Christina - can you help me out because it will happen faster than me looking something up.
I have read many times in books that the Catholic Church sent "soldiers" to kill whole villages if
they were gnostic or some such thing - way beyond fighting Muslims.

Do you know anything about that off the top of your head?

And Mr. Eddie -I don't know if it is a typo or not but I really am a girl.
Ask me a girly question - I'll save you the time - my answer is Ysatis by Givenchy.

Miss Hepburn



I'm referencing when Rosie O'D. was asked on a sitcom to say something Lesbian to prove she was a Lesbian -
Without hesitation she said, "Home Depot."
(It's a joke.)

 

[jiggyfly]

You didn't give me anything even closely resembling an answer, did you? Just a one liner off the cuff. You stand against 2000 years of men who taught different than you, you stand against the current consensus of intellectuals, and I am supposed to bow to your understanding just because you say so?

You know who else does that -- cults!

Christian history is filled with men who thought that they found something different and hence, they were smarter than other and God had indeed spoken to them. That is not how the Holy Spirit works. We see very early in Acts 15 that after the council had met, they went with the consensus opinion, say "It seems good to us and to the Holy Spirit". The voice of the one was outweighed by the voice of the many.

And that has been how the Spirit of God has moved throughout the Church for 2000 years.

Your post (and your arrogance) is why the "private interpretation" of Protestantism is so dangerous. It has resulted in thousands of denominations, shredded the Body of Christ in to fragments, divided people, started wars and bloodshed, and is not in line with the prayer in John 17 where Jesus prayed that all believers be "ONE" not many!

I'm sorry I assumed you being the astute catholic that you could understand Latin. It is a Hebrew proverb.

Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

 

[Christina]

Christina - can you help me out because it will happen faster than me looking something up.
I have read many times in books that the Catholic Church sent "soldiers" to kill whole villages if
they were gnostic or some such thing - way beyond fighting Muslims.

Do you know anything about that off the top of your head?

And Mr. Eddie -I don't know if it is a typo or not but I really am a girl.
Ask me a girly question - I'll save you the time - my answer is Ysatis by Givenchy.

Miss Hepburn



I'm referencing when Rosie O'D. was asked on a sitcom to say something Lesbian to prove she was a Lesbian -
Without hesitation she said, "Home Depot."
(It's a joke.)

here you go Miss Heburn


THE CATHOLIC "INQUISITION" WAS A BLOODY HOLOCAUST THAT "OFFICIALLY" STARTED IN 1205 AND SUPPOSEDLY, "OFFICIALLY" ENDED IN 1805...OR DID IT??? VATICAN STORM-TROOPERS TORTURED AND MURDERED 50 MILLION OR MORE PEOPLE DURING THAT PERIOD. MOST OF THEM WERE BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS OR PRACTICED SOME OTHER FORM OF "UNAPPROVED" RELIGION. WAS THE NAZI HOLOCAUST ANOTHER INSPIRATION OF THE CONTINUING 'INQUISITION,'- REVEALING THE SPEARHEAD OF HISTORIC RELIGIOUS HATRED?
http://www.spirittruth.com/view/?pageID=368341

this is just a start theres Bloody Queen Mary and history of Popes killing Popes ect ect

Bloody Mary”… Relentless Papist and Mass-Murderer
Mary had always rejected and resented the break with Rome that her father had instituted and his subsequent establishment of the Anglican Church that had flowed from her half-brother's protestantism, and now she tried to turn England back to Roman Catholicism. This effort was carried out by force, and hundreds of Protestant leaders were executed. The first was John Rogers (a.k.a. “Thomas Matthews”), the printer of the “Matthews-Tyndale Bible”. His execution was followed by the execution of former Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer, who was primarily responsible for the printing of the “Great Bible”. Hundreds more would follow in Mary’s bloody reign of terror. This earned the queen the title of “Bloody Mary”.

 

[EAHARA]

I'm sorry I assumed you being the astute catholic that you could understand Latin. It is a Hebrew proverb.

Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

I'm not Roman Catholic.

I don't know Latin.

I am a convert to the Catholic Faith.

I don't know Latin.

I was Protestant until 9 years ago.

I don't know Latin

here you go Miss Heburn


THE CATHOLIC "INQUISITION" WAS A BLOODY HOLOCAUST THAT "OFFICIALLY" STARTED IN 1205 AND SUPPOSEDLY, "OFFICIALLY" ENDED IN 1805...OR DID IT??? VATICAN STORM-TROOPERS TORTURED AND MURDERED 50 MILLION OR MORE PEOPLE DURING THAT PERIOD. MOST OF THEM WERE BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS OR PRACTICED SOME OTHER FORM OF "UNAPPROVED" RELIGION. WAS THE NAZI HOLOCAUST ANOTHER INSPIRATION OF THE CONTINUING 'INQUISITION,'- REVEALING THE SPEARHEAD OF HISTORIC RELIGIOUS HATRED?
http://www.spirittru.../?pageID=368341

this is just a start theres Bloody Queen Mary and history of Popes killing Popes ect ect

Bloody Mary”… Relentless Papist and Mass-Murderer
Mary had always rejected and resented the break with Rome that her father had instituted and his subsequent establishment of the Anglican Church that had flowed from her half-brother's protestantism, and now she tried to turn England back to Roman Catholicism. This effort was carried out by force, and hundreds of Protestant leaders were executed. The first was John Rogers (a.k.a. “Thomas Matthews”), the printer of the “Matthews-Tyndale Bible”. His execution was followed by the execution of former Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer, who was primarily responsible for the printing of the “Great Bible”. Hundreds more would follow in Mary’s bloody reign of terror. This earned the queen the title of “Bloody Mary”.

Surely you can do better than to use the site of avowed anti-Catholics who are known for distortion of truth and outright lies.

I will get my facts together to refute this garbage, but one thing sticks out right now. The figure of 50 million "murdered by the papacy".

There weren't that many people in all of Europe!!!

 

[Christina]

Im sure your Catholic sources are just as reliable like I said in the first place you just deny what you want anyway,
If every word is proven true you would still deny it because thats not what your told

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I'm copying and pasting --means nothing without a bibliography, I know - so give me time
it's just a start.
I have books somewhere by ElainePagels and Karen Armstrong- I'll probaly find things in those -WHEN I have the time to bother
with this. Here is alittle I found online:

They came as individuals and as armies and as soldiers of fortune.

Muslims were not their only target; local Christians
and Jews were also among their victims. In one instance their behavior plumbed new depths.
It was in the St. Sophia church in Istanbul. They violated women, drank, and stripped the
church bare. An eyewitness of the fourth Crusade was horrified: 'I Geoffrey de Ville
Hardouin, Martial of the court of Champagne, am sure that since the creation of the
universe, a plundering worse than this has not been witnessed' (Efe 1987: 18). Compare
this to Mehmet the conqueror's entry when, with humility and awe, he fell to his knees,
taking the dust from the floor and wiping it on his turban as an act of devotion (Efe
1987). Christians here have a saying: 'Better the turban of a Turk than the tiara of the
Pope.'

As for the unfortunate Jews, they would be massacred
by the Christians on their way to the Crusades and massacred by them on their way back
from the Crusades. Not surprisingly Muslims thought that here was a civilization doomed to
barbarism and backwardness for ever. -- p. 64


I really did think this was common knowledge. Thanks Christina. (Christina to the rescue!)
Here's a little more from the sight :

John Edwards, History Today

On the second day of January [1492] I saw Your Highnesses'
royal banners placed by force of arms on the towers of the Alhambra . . . and in the same
month . . . Your Highness, as Catholic Christians and princes devoted to the holy
Christian faith and the furtherance of its cause, and enemies of the sect of Mohammed and
of all idolatry and heresy, resolved to send me, Christopher Columbus, to the . . .
regions of India. -- vol. 42

Found this in the name of Christianity:

The Crusaders commited numerous atrocities against Muslim populations: mass excecutions, throwing of the heads of Muslim over besieged cities, exhibition and mutilation of naked Muslim cadavers, or cannibalism as in the 1098 Siege of Maarat.

Taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:CrusaderAtrocitiesBibliothequeNationa...

Here's something I haven't opened yet:
Catholic "Church" Not Christian
For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions.
www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm · Cached

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Well, this is it. I found out more than I cared to know.
This is why I said what I said, Eddie...I've heard about these events since the 70s. I don't hate the Catholic Church as I said - but I sure do not want to belong to it anymore. Being kept in the dark as I was was actually a wonderful memory for me. I'm actually sorry for the bubble to have burst - it was like home or a family to me. Very recognizable rituals steeped in "tradition" with a lot of frankinsence, chimes, st.glass and beautiful statuary...

Here's the last of it - you don't have to approve of the source - I don't care - I have no mission to change you - I'm just fulfilling your request as to why I made my comments earlier. Take care.
Persecution in varying degrees of severity was instituted over the centuries following.

By the 11th century, in their zeal to establish Christ's kingdom, the Roman popes ("pope" is an ecclesiastical office that is the very antithesis of the New Testament ideal of a local church pastor) began utilizing a new tool -- the Crusades. At first, the Crusades had as their object the conquering of Jerusalem and the "Holy Land". Along the crusaders' paths, thousands of innocent civilians (especially Jews) were raped, robbed, and slaughtered. In time, however, the crusade concept was altered to crush spiritual opposition within Europe itself. In other words, armies were raised with the intent of massacring whole communities of Bible believing Christians. One such group of Bible believing Christians were known as the Albigenses.

[Pope] Innocent III believed that Bible believing dissidents were worse than infidels (Saracens, Moslems, and Turks), for they threatened the unity of ... Europe. So Innocent III sponsored 4 "crusades" to exterminate the Albigenses. Innocent called upon Louis VII to do his killing for him, and he also enjoined Raymond VI to assist him.

The Cistercian order of Catholic monks were then commissioned to preach all over France, Flanders, and Germany for the purpose of raising an army sufficient to kill the Bible believers. All who volunteered to take part in these mass murders were promised that they would receive the same reward as those who had sallied forth against the Moslems (i.e., forgiveness of sins and eternal life).

The Albigenses were referred to in Pope Innocent's Sunday morning messages as "servants of the old serpent". Innocent promised the killers a heavenly kingdom if they took up their swords against unarmed populaces.

In July of 1209 A.D. an army of orthodox Catholics attacked Beziers and murdered 60,000 unarmed civilians, killing men, women, and children. The whole city was sacked, and when someone complained that Catholics were being killed as well as "heretics", the papal legates told them to go on killing and not to worry about it for "the Lord knows His own."

At Minerve, 14,000 Christians were put to death in the flames, and ears, noses, and lips of the "heretics" were cut off by the "faithful."A

This is but one example from the long and sordid history of Catholic atrocities committed against their bitter enemies, the Bible believing Christians. Much worse treatment of Bible believers was forthcoming during that stage of bloody Catholic history known as the Inquisition.

 

[EAHARA]

Im sure your Catholic sources are just as reliable like I said in the first place you just deny what you want anyway,
If every word is proven true you would still deny it because thats not what your told

In other words, you have made up your mind and the facts be hanged, right?

As a former Protestant, I had to overcome that mindset. I was given the grace to look at the facts rather than the lies that I had been told by professional anti-catholic bigots. When I did, I realized that I had not been told the whole story -- just bits and pieces cleverly cobbled together to show the Church in the worst possible light. This was done by men who HATE the Catholic Faith and do so without reason, other than they were taught themselves to mindlessly hate the Church.

The sad part is that, except that you be given grace from God, if Jesus Himself came to you and defended the Catholic Church, you would run screaming denial into the night. Very sad.

 

[Christina]

You are brainwashed and will not accept any truth but what you are told .... If you did in your mind you would burn in Hell forever .isnt that what your taught?
So because you are so brainwashed you will deny any truth but that which you are told ....
So its not us who has our mind made up. We just have no reason to deny these truths. We follow God, therefore we dont have to deny mens actions in an effort to justify the men involved to try to make believe they are Holy so we can justify following them over God.

 

[EAHARA]

You are brainwashed and will not accept any truth but what you are told .... If you did in your mind you would burn in Hell forever. Isn't that what your taught?

So because you are so brainwashed you will deny any truth but that which you are told ....

That is, of course, not true at all, especially since I am not a "cradle Catholic". I had to study my way into the ancient and universal Faith. I looked at all the facts. I did comparative research. I read books......my Lord did I read books!!! I studied the Bible with a concordance, a Bible dictionary, and other study aids.

As for it being "what I am told," the Church teaches, but one has the right to reject that teaching, just as men in Jesus day had the right to reject Him and the pagans of the OT times had the right to reject God's message to the world through the Jewish religion and Her prophets. God has always made His Truth known. You just don't like that He didn't choose YOU....but chose rather the Catholic Church...by which to reveal that Truth.

And what happens to people who walk away from the Truth? Were pagans saved who rejected the Jewish faith and the prophesies of the coming Messiah? Were the Pharisees saved who rejected the One Who is Truth when He walked among them? Can you really be saved if your reject the message? If the Church is the "pillar and ground of Truth" and they say as much, and if they warn people that rejection of the Truth is a sure way to eternal misery, are they "threatening" you or are the warning you in love that you might repent of your stubbornness?

So its not us who has our mind made up. We just have no reason to deny these truths.

I'm sorry, but the "truths" of Protestantism did not exist prior to 1517 and the Protestant Revolt, therefore, they could not be Truth. You need to study the first writings of the first Christians and see that there is no evidence at all that Protestantism had any existence before Luther, Calvin, and Knox.

We follow God

If you follow God, you will love His Church and the Truth that He taught the Apostles.

 

[EAHARA]

Here are your "Bible Believers" This is from a Protestant web site called C.A.R.M. It is filled with people who DESPISE the Catholic Church, so you cannot claim bias in this report.

Albigenses
A heresy during the middle ages that developed in the town Albi in Southern France. This error taught that there were two gods: the good god of light usually referred to as Jesus in the New Testament and the god of darkness and evil usually associated with Satan and the "God of the Old Testament." Anything material was considered evil including the body which was created by Satan. The soul, created by the good god, was imprisoned in the evil flesh and salvation was possible only through holy living and doing good works. At death, if the person has been spiritual enough, salvation comes to the believer. But, if the person has not been good enough, he is reincarnated as an animal or another human. The Albigenses denied the resurrection of the body since it was considered evil.

The Albigenses taught that Jesus was God but that He only appeared as a man while on earth. It also taught that the Catholic church of the time was corrupted by its power and wealth. Their asceticism and humility compared to the great affluence of the clergy helped to bring many converts to this evangelistic movement.

There were two types of Albigenses: believers and Perfects. Believers were Albigenses who had not taken the initiation rite of being a Perfect. Perfects denounced all material possession. They abstained from meat, milk, cheese, eggs, and sexual relations. To become a Perfect a believer had to go through consolamentum, an initiation rite involving the laying on of hands that was supposed to bring the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Infrequently, suicide was practiced as a way to rid oneself of the evil human body.

In 1208, Peter de Castelnau, an official representative of the Pope, was murdered by an Albigenses. Since they had been growing in number, becoming a threat, and would not convert to Christianity, Pope Innocent III ordered them to be wiped out. The persecution was fierce and the movement was stopped.

These people are world class heretics. They are not "Bible believers" in any sense of the word whatsoever. Futhermore, since the term "Bible believer" was not even coined until the 20th century and the invention of American Fundamentalist as a response against the "higher German criticism of the Bible" the name doesn't apply.

Do you know what heresy does? It damns people to hell -- forever!! It is not something that we can "tut tut" about and not care about. The pope and the bishops of the Church have a serious responsibility for which they will face God at the end of time -- the care of every soul under their authority. They will answer for every soul that has been lost under their care. Therefore, having heresy in the Church is just as bad as having a rattlesnake in a baby's carriage.

The popes saw that after pleading with and trying to correct obstinate heretics, the only thing they could do with them was to wipe them out in order to save the souls of the simple people in their care. They were acting just as a good shepherd would act when a wolf comes visiting. They killed the wolf to protect the sheep.






And here is a refutation of the constant crappola we hear over and over about the Inquisition.

http://www.trosch.org/for/inquisition.html

It's very easy to read only those things which support ignorance, superstition, bigotry, and hatred against the Catholic Church.

Those things are called by their usual term -- LIES!

They have been started centuries ago by Protestants who hated the Church and have taken on a life of their own from generation to generation.

Miss Hepburn, you may believe what you wish, but on the Judgment Day, Jesus will remind you that you had the free will to examine BOTH SIDES of the controversies regarding His Church. It appears that you and several others here do not wish to look at the Church in anything other than a negative light.

 

[Christina]

LOL yeah keep telling yourself that .... It wont save you but if it gets you through the day ...God never appointed your priests and Popes to anything men did ... He can do it all by himself ..that fact has always annoyed men of the Catholic church who insert themselves between man and God. There is only one true church its Gods made up of all his belivers ... and guess what they are not all catholics ... You labor under your tradition and lies of men because you are told what to think and believe ...
Very sad really because you are right your leaders will be judged harsely for their lies and misleading of Gods sheep every one will be on their head .... And wheres that leave you when the men you follow arent standing between you and God and you have to explain why you choose to follow men over God .... Your protests wont much matter ..you had a choice

 

[Miss Hepburn]

The pope and the bishops of the Church have a serious responsibility for which they will face God at the end of time -- the care of every soul under their authority. They will answer for every soul that has been lost under their care. Therefore, having heresy in the Church is just as bad as having a rattlesnake in a baby's carriage.

The popes saw that after pleading with and trying to correct obstinate heretics, the only thing they could do with them was to wipe them out in order to save the souls of the simple people in their care. They were acting just as a good shepherd would act when a wolf comes visiting. They killed the wolf to protect the sheep. So you admit it! Why did you make me look it up?!!!

Miss Hepburn, you may believe what you wish, but on the Judgment Day, Jesus will remind you that you had the free will to examine BOTH SIDES of the controversies regarding His Church. It appears that you and several others here do not wish to look at the Church in anything other than a negative light.

You, Sir, are becoming a bit too snotty for my taste and I do not believe I in anyway deserve to be talked to like I'm some heretic that should be scared about Judgment Day. The next thing you know I'm going to have to be esponged to save the Church's integrity in the Name of God! What's different today as to then?
I do not wish to only view the Catholic Church in a negative light and do not know why you are singling me out and grouping me with others.
If you recall the Catholic Church used to be my home and I respect my siblings devotion. You're acting like an emotional brat, imo. I've seen it creeping up in the last few days...and have not liked what I was feeling from you.

A man's true character shows itself under stress. You are not shining here in this discussion, I'm afraid.


I have no agenda about the Catholic Church.
I do happen to believe the many things I have read about the atrocities sanctioned by the Church Leaders. If someone came along that could make me believe that these things were not true - great. I want to know the truth about everything and anything. I am the least closed minded malleable person you will ever know. Often, too malleable. But snottiness and assumptions do not move me, sir.

Above you say things that I whole heartedly abhor -as if they were "good and righteous" events.

That being that because people saw things differently then the Church - they being rattlesnakes, no? They needed to be murdered, no? I dare say - they were
not even close to being part of any church, if they were singing to the Moon or worshiping herbs in their own villages THAT is what they were killed for. Is there another way of viewing this?
What is it I am not seeing - that would make you tell me to fear Judgment Day!!! I mean, really.

I, quit frankly, have not heard such a mean spirited, emotional dig come from an adult in a longtime.
And don't you be telling me you were loving and fearing for my soul. You were being a little brat. How's it workin' for ya?

Speaking of wolves and sheep - you can't be pulling the wool over my eyes that easily, Mister.

Gimme a high 5, Christina.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

The sad part is that, except that you be given grace from God, if Jesus Himself came to you and defended the Catholic Church, you would run screaming denial into the night. Very sad. -Eddie

Well, this is not your finest day.
That is a low and underhanded, adolescent dig - to a fellow Christian sister, lover of Christ---- that if Jesus said something to
her she would deny it.

There is no other way one can view this.

I'm afraid you sound caught up in emotion and are not thinking clearly and do not realize you are not talking to emotional, weak
women here that your little digs can bully - but women that are thinking clearly.


My suggestion --step back a day or so - read the last couple pages impartially -I'm sure that is possible. Have you ever been in Debate Class 101 or do you have any idea what it is like to be a Public Defender and then be hired as an ADA?
Impartiality gives one a clearer mind.

I'm afraid I'm seeing a pattern here of anger, mean remarks -intended to demean and thus disarm your opponent ---that only works when the other is weaker than you - a child or a woman usually. It is classic perp behavior. I'll bet this is not the first time you've heard this. And if you have -you've been outed and we will not see you again.

Later,
Miss Hepburn

 

[Christina]

I am in agreement with Miss Heburn
some of my favorite people I have met on this site over the years have been Catholics
and we are still friends... However the one differance I see is that the truly blessed sheep in the Catholic church do not need to hide behind the church .... Do not need to hide behind arrogant Ignorance of the things of God.
Many know and see the errors in their church just as there are in all churches of men ..
They do not attempt to justify them in arrogant denial but strive to want to change whats wrong because they love whats right ....
This is an attitude I can respect even if I dont fully agree doctrine wise ....