What happened to Enoch? Would love some input on this.

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Even the Holy Bible tells us in Genesis 5:24 NASB95

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


NOW. Can the bible lie? I submit it is possible based on who is writing what they perceive to be the truth, but again NO. As we have been told by "the experts" that the bible is the "inerrant inspired Word from God."

We have also been told that no one has gone to be with or see the father because the time for that will be after Jesus' 2nd coming. (Please... Preterists... let this one rest.)

So the question is... When God took Enoch, to where did he take him?

Upper Sheol , often referred to as paradise?

Some have said... Paradise is pictured as being in the heavens, not underground.... but is that so?

What is Sheol and Where is it? Bible Meaning and Definition

The Bible says Sheol is the grave or place of the dead. But who goes there and what is it like? Read Bible meaning and descriptions.

www.biblestudytools.com

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary says

Old Testament. The Hebrew word seol [l/a.v], "Sheol, " refers to the grave or the abode of the dead ( Psalms 88:3 Psalms 88:5 ). Through much of the Old Testament period, it was believed that all went one place, whether human or animal ( Psalms 49:12 Psalms 49:14 Psalms 49:20 ), whether righteous or wicked ( Eccl 9:2-3 ). No one could avoid Sheol ( Psalm 49:9 ; 89:48 ), which was thought to be down in the lowest parts of the earth ( Deut 32:22 ; 1 Sam 28:11-15 ; Job 26:5 ; Psalm 86:13 ; Isa 7:11 ; Ezekiel 31:14-16 Ezekiel 31:18 ).

Toward the end of the Old Testament, God revealed that there will be a resurrection of the dead ( Isa 26:19 ). Sheol will devour no longer; instead God will swallow up Death ( Isa 25:8 ). The faithful will be rewarded with everlasting life while the rest will experience eternal contempt ( Dan 12:2 ). This theology developed further in the intertestamental period.

The New Testament. By the time of Jesus, it was common for Jews to believe that the righteous dead go to a place of comfort while the wicked go to Hades ("Hades" normally translates "Sheol" in the LXX), a place of torment ( Luke 16:22-23 ). Similarly, in Christianity, believers who die go immediately to be with the Lord ( 2 Cor 5:8 ; Php 1:23 ). Hades is a hostile place whose gates cannot prevail against the church ( Matt 16:18 ). In fact, Jesus himself holds the keys of Death and Hades ( Rev 1:18 ). Death and Hades will ultimately relinquish their dead and be cast into the lake of fire ( Rev 20:13-14 ).

But Bakers definition and explanation seems incomplete ....

Jesus' Descension To Sheol: What It Is And Isn't - Things Above Us

A Twitter-kerfuffle erupted this week when various news agencies reported Hollywood star Mel Gibson is working on a sequel to the wildly popular Passion of The Christ. “The Resurrection. Big subject,” Gibson told USA Today in 2016. “We’re trying to craft this in a way that’s cinematically...

thingsabove.us

SHEOL/HADES​

Let’s lay some groundwork first, shall we? To understand Jesus’ descension into Hell and its significance, we first need to know where dead people, inside the people of God and outside, were translated in the Old Testament. They didn’t disappear into the ether, nor did the unsaved of the Old Testament simply go to the final Hell of Revelation 20:14-15. Rather, the plain testimony of Scripture reveals that the believing and unbelieving dead before the resurrection went to a place called “Sheol.”

Sheol is an actual place for the dead in an actual location, not simply a nice and proper way to say “grave,” although Old Testament writers do that from time to time (Job 17:13-16; Job 24:19-20). Not only do the souls of the wicked dead live there (Ps. 9:17; Ps. 31:17; Prov. 9:18; Luke 16:23), but the righteous who died prior to the resurrection were taken there as well, like Jacob (Gen. 37:35), Job (Job 14:13), and Hezekiah (Is. 38:10).

Fallen angels also live in Sheol. For instance, demons ask Jesus not to send them into the abyss in Luke 8:31. Also, during the seven-year Tribulation, God will allow the demons to exit Sheol and torment those on earth for several months (Rev. 9:1-5).

THE CHASM​

Okay: we’ve established that Sheol was an actual place — not just a fancy way of saying “grave” — for the souls of righteous and the unrighteous dead before the resurrection. Were they, like, mingling down there together? Could the righteous challenge the unrighteous to some serious, five-on-five pick-up basketball?

Ah, no.

Before the resurrection of Christ, we know that there were two chambers or compartments in Sheol/Hades, and these, of course, were divided by a “great chasm.” Christ makes reference to this chasm in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:26). One was unable to cross over to the other.

It’s relevant to our discussion to recognize that the death of the wicked resulted in their going to the “lowest part of Sheol,” a place of God’s anger and punishment. God speaks of this place through Moses in Deuteronomy 32:22: “For a fire is kindled in My anger, and burns to the lowest part of Sheol (c.f. Is. 14:9; Ps. 86:13; and Prov. 9:18).” So, yeah, not a place you wanted to go. It’s a place where God demonstrates his wrath towards the wicked as they await their trip to final Hell. Sheol, for them, is a temporary holding spot until the White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20 when the books are opened, works are examined, and the unrighteous are thrown into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

The souls of the believing righteous were translated to the upper chamber of Sheol upon death, also known as “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) or “Paradise” (Luke 23:43). When Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise,” He is, indeed, referring to the upper chamber of Sheol where they will meet together in death. Again, Jesus isn’t speaking in allegory here, because the literal sense makes most sense. There is simply no reason to take this passage to mean anything other than what it says. Jesus and the thief met together in a real place called “Paradise” on that same day.

Wiki tells us...

The Bosom of Abraham

"Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in the biblical Sheol (or Hades in the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures from around 200 BC, and therefore so described in the New Testament)[1] where the righteous dead abided prior to Jesus’ resurrection.

The phrase and concept are found in both Judaism and Christian religions and religious art.

So, if one were to assume that God took Enoch... to where did He take him?

To a different location to live out his life under another name?

Or to Upper Sheol awaiting his eventual heavenly entrance?

I cannot believe that He took him to heaven simply because John 3:13 tells us “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. And Jesus has not been born when Enoch vanished.

Opinions?

 

[Mr E]

I cannot believe that He took him to heaven simply because John 3:13 tells us “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. And Jesus has not been born when Enoch vanished.

Opinions?

I think you kind of answer your own question. The one who ascended is the same one who first descended.

 

[Tommy Cool]

According to Heb 11:13 Enoch died.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

God had translated (transported) him from one place to another that he should not see death.

The word see is eidon…. which is to look at with actual perception with ones eyes.

Although there is not much... but in checking the OT records it shows that Enoch had never seen anybody pass away.

He pleased God all the time…. and for that God translated him that he should not see death …but he himself did die.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

According to Heb 11:13 Enoch died.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

God had translated (transported) him from one place to another that he should not see death.

The word see is eidon…. which is to look at with actual perception with ones eyes.

Although there is not much... but in checking the OT records it shows that Enoch had never seen anybody pass away.

He pleased God all the time…. and for that God translated him that he should not see death …but he himself did die.

To Upper sheol?

 

[strepho]

Zechariah chapter 4:14 . The two witnesses stand near God's throne. Some scholars believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
In genesis chapter 5 . Enoch was Translated. His flesh body didn't see death. God took Enoch.
Hebrews chapter 11:5
Is cross reference.
2 kings 2:4. Elijah was Translated to heaven. His flesh body never saw death.
God took Moses. No one knows where moses bones are. I personally believe Moses was Translated to heaven.
What evidence??.
Mark 9:2 to 9:8. Mount transfiguration. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. Two apostles witnessed this.
The probability is, it's most likely either moses and Elijah. Or Elijah and Enoch.
Zechariah chapter 4 tells us where the two witnesses are.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Zechariah chapter 4:14 . The two witnesses stand near God's throne. Some scholars believe the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.

14Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Whole chapter:
The Golden Lampstand and Olive Trees

1Then the angel who was speaking with me returned and roused me, as a man who is awakened from his sleep. 2He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.” 4Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, “What are these, my lord?” 5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts. 7‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”
8Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9“The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10“For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel—these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth.”

11Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

ALSO Revelations 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

In genesis chapter 5 . Enoch was Translated. His flesh body didn't see death. God took Enoch.

This is not in argument. I want to know where because if we are to believe John 3:13 that tells us “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. And Jesus had not been born in the flesh when Enoch vanished. And the fact that Jesus was in heaven with God the Father during this time, if Enoch was there... He would have known, and likely said something keeping John from lying.

NOTE: I am not suggesting that Enoch was not there after Jesus descended to upper sheol.... but he was not before.

But technically... we are not told in Gen 5 that Enoch did not see death... we are told

24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

John should have us understanding that wherever God took Enoch it could not have been to heaven.

Hebrews chapter 11:5
Is cross reference.
2 kings 2:4. Elijah was Translated to heaven. His flesh body never saw death.
God took Moses. No one knows where moses bones are. I personally believe Moses was Translated to heaven.
What evidence??.
Mark 9:2 to 9:8. Mount transfiguration. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. Two apostles witnessed this.
The probability is, it's most likely either moses and Elijah. Or Elijah and Enoch.
Zechariah chapter 4 tells us where the two witnesses are.

I see Hebrews 11: 13 as applicable to Enoch.
That Enoch is one of the righteous servants of God mentioned by Paul in his epistle to the Hebrews in both chapter 11:5 &13 and who are still awaiting the promise of resurrection. (John 5:28,29; Hebrews 11:26, 39,40)

No matter... repeating myself Enoch was not taken up into heaven, the Bible nowhere says this. It simply says that God "took him." It does not specify where he was taken.

 

[Mr E]

14Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

Whole chapter:
The Golden Lampstand and Olive Trees

1Then the angel who was speaking with me returned and roused me, as a man who is awakened from his sleep. 2He said to me, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold with its bowl on the top of it, and its seven lamps on it with seven spouts belonging to each of the lamps which are on the top of it; 3also two olive trees by it, one on the right side of the bowl and the other on its left side.” 4Then I said to the angel who was speaking with me saying, “What are these, my lord?” 5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 6Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the LORD of hosts. 7‘What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of “Grace, grace to it!”’”
8Also the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9“The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10“For who has despised the day of small things? But these seven will be glad when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel—these are the eyes of the LORD which range to and fro throughout the earth.”

11Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13So he answered me, saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

ALSO Revelations 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.



This is not in argument. I want to know where because if we are to believe John 3:13 that tells us “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. And Jesus had not been born in the flesh when Enoch vanished. And the fact that Jesus was in heaven with God the Father during this time, if Enoch was there... He would have known, and likely said something keeping John from lying.

NOTE: I am not suggesting that Enoch was not there after Jesus descended to upper sheol.... but he was not before.

But technically... we are not told in Gen 5 that Enoch did not see death... we are told

24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

John should have us understanding that wherever God took Enoch it could not have been to heaven.

I see Hebrews 11: 13 as applicable to Enoch.
That Enoch is one of the righteous servants of God mentioned by Paul in his epistle to the Hebrews in both chapter 11:5 &13 and who are still awaiting the promise of resurrection. (John 5:28,29; Hebrews 11:26, 39,40)

No matter... repeating myself Enoch was not taken up into heaven, the Bible nowhere says this. It simply says that God "took him." It does not specify where he was taken.

It's unfortunate, but you have an internal bias that prevents you from following wherever the facts lead you. You read what it says, but you can't accept what it says because the text doesn't align with your beliefs? If you thought more highly of the textual evidence, you'd think less about your beliefs... that is, you'd be more willing to examine your beliefs. It's very common. People simply ignore ideas that don't line up with their own ideas. They reject them out of hand, and make allowances for 'small problems' in order to sanitize the text or to prop up their beliefs about what it says.

Scripture says- Before he died, God took him up.

Why does this seem strange to you? You say (because you think/believe) that he could not have been taken up to heaven, because of your idea about another passage. Have you considered the idea that your thinking might be incorrect regarding that other passage as well?

-and sorry to ask, but I have to... because some people also have strong bias against what we know as 'The Book of Enoch' yet it explains in great detail what happened.


The story of Enoch: how the Lord took him to heaven

There was a wise man and a great artisan whom the LORD took away. And he loved him so that he might see the highest realms; and of the most wise and great and inconceivable and unchanging kingdom of God almighty,
•and of the most marvelous and glorious and shining and many-eyed station of the LORD’s servants, and of the LORD’s immovable throne,
• and of the ranks and organization of the bodiless armies, and of the indescribable composition of the multitude of elements,
• singing of the army of the cherubim, and of the light without measure, to be an eyewitness.

Here's my question(s) for you to think through-- How about Elijah? Are you insisting that Elijah was not taken up? How about Ezekiel? -- and his firsthand account of things he saw there? -And most famously-- John, through whom we received the book of things Jesus the Christ revealed? Was he not taken up into heaven?

Examine your bias and what 'taken up' means.

 

[Mr E]

Enoch's own account of his dream--

At that time he said, When 165 years were complete for me, I fathered my son Methusala; and after that I lived 200 years. I completed all the years of my life, 365 years.

In the first month, on the assigned day of the first month, I was in my house alone. And I lay on my bad sleeping. And, while I slept, a great distress entered my heart, and I was weeping with my eyes in a dream. And I could not figure out what this distress might be, |nor| what might be happening to me. Then two huge men appeared to me, the like of which I had never seen on earth.

Their faces were like the shining sun; their eyes were like burning lamps; from their mouths fire was coming forth; their clothing was various singing; their wings were more glistening than gold; their hands were whiter than snow.

And they stood at the head of my bed and called me by my name. Then I awake from my sleep, and saw those men, standing in front of me, in actuality. Then I bowed down to them; and I was terrified; and the appearance of my face was changed because of fear.

Then those men said to me, “Be brave, Enoch! In truth, do not fear! The eternal God has sent us to you. And behold, you will ascend with us to heaven today. And tell your sons 〈|and all the members of your household,|〉 everything that they must do in your house while they are without you on the earth. And let no one search for you until the LORD returns you to them.” And I hurried and obeyed them; and I went out of my house and I shut the doors as I had been ordered. And I called my sons, Methusalam and Regim and Gaidad. And I declared to them all the marvels that those men had told me.

 

[JohnDB]

One thing is certain....he did NOT write a book.

 

[Mr E]

One thing is certain....he did NOT write a book.

Funny how one can be so certain of something they can't possibly know.

Have a good day JohnDB.

 

[JohnDB]

Funny how one can be so certain of something they can't possibly know.

Have a good day JohnDB.

Do you know the tests that scripture must pass in order to become scripture?

Yeah....didn't think so.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

It's unfortunate, but you have an internal bias that prevents you from following wherever the facts lead you. You read what it says, but you can't accept what it says because the text doesn't align with your beliefs? If you thought more highly of the textual evidence, you'd think less about your beliefs... that is, you'd be more willing to examine your beliefs. It's very common. People simply ignore ideas that don't line up with their own ideas. They reject them out of hand, and make allowances for 'small problems' in order to sanitize the text or to prop up their beliefs about what it says.

Scripture says- Before he died, God took him up.

Why does this seem strange to you? You say (because you think/believe) that he could not have been taken up to heaven, because of your idea about another passage. Have you considered the idea that your thinking might be incorrect regarding that other passage as well?

-and sorry to ask, but I have to... because some people also have strong bias against what we know as 'The Book of Enoch' yet it explains in great detail what happened.


The story of Enoch: how the Lord took him to heaven

There was a wise man and a great artisan whom the LORD took away. And he loved him so that he might see the highest realms; and of the most wise and great and inconceivable and unchanging kingdom of God almighty,
•and of the most marvelous and glorious and shining and many-eyed station of the LORD’s servants, and of the LORD’s immovable throne,
• and of the ranks and organization of the bodiless armies, and of the indescribable composition of the multitude of elements,
• singing of the army of the cherubim, and of the light without measure, to be an eyewitness.

Here's my question(s) for you to think through-- How about Elijah? Are you insisting that Elijah was not taken up? How about Ezekiel? -- and his firsthand account of things he saw there? -And most famously-- John, through whom we received the book of things Jesus the Christ revealed? Was he not taken up into heaven?

Examine your bias and what 'taken up' means.

Okay.

Please tell me what

In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

means?

 

[Mr E]

Okay.

Please tell me what

In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

means?

Rather than isolating that one verse, have you considered the whole passage from John 3 for context? It consists of a broad conversation that Jesus was having with Nicodemus that was centered on a few very important concepts, namely:

What it means to be born again-- 'born from above' or born of the spirit, as Jesus explains to him. He makes it clear that he is NOT talking about physical things, but spiritual things. Not the flesh, but the spirit-- and he says>>

What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit. You must be born from above.

This is the backdrop for this "descending from heaven" and it applies to the spirit born from above.


Later, in that same passage-- John the baptizer expands our understanding a little and it follows that most famous verse about how 'God so loved the world that He sent his son>>>>


“No one can receive anything unless it has been given to him from heaven."

The one who comes from above is superior to all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is superior to all. He testifies about what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. The one who has accepted his testimony has confirmed clearly that God is truthful. For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for he does not give the Spirit sparingly. The Father loves the Son and has placed all things under his authority.


Now do the math.

 

[MatthewG]

I think he died, but it wasnt like a horrible death, he may have been taken in his sleep. Probably ended up in Paradise (one of the parts of sheol.)

That is my opinion though.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Rather than isolating that one verse, have you considered the whole passage from John 3 for context? It consists of a broad conversation that Jesus was having with Nicodemus that was centered on a few very important concepts, namely:

What it means to be born again-- 'born from above' or born of the spirit, as Jesus explains to him. He makes it clear that he is NOT talking about physical things, but spiritual things. Not the flesh, but the spirit-- and he says>>

But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.

What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit. You must be born from above.

This is the backdrop for this "descending from heaven" and it applies to the spirit born from above.

But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.

Later, in that same passage-- John the baptizer expands our understanding a little and it follows that most famous verse about how 'God so loved the world that He sent his son>>>>


“No one can receive anything unless it has been given to him from heaven."

But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.

The one who comes from above is superior to all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is superior to all. He testifies about what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. The one who has accepted his testimony has confirmed clearly that God is truthful. For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for he does not give the Spirit sparingly. The Father loves the Son and has placed all things under his authority

But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.

Now do the math.

" DITTO"

Further comment. Everything you quoted from and said about Jouh 3, in entirty is accurate. Every thing Jesus said in John 3 is true.

The fact still stands that when He said "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."... that this IS a statement of truth , truly stated.

IOW... Jesus is telling Nicodemus... no one, except for him who descended from heaven has been there.

But before that Jesus also said

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So it is with certainty that Enoch and who ever else prior to Jesus' ministry may have "disappeared" did not go up to heaven....

 

[Mr E]

But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.


But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.


But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.


But has zero relevance to the fact that Jesus also said In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

Meaning.... that no one will unless "born again" and NO ONE HAS.

" DITTO"

Further comment. Everything you quoted from and said about Jouh 3, in entirty is accurate. Every thing Jesus said in John 3 is true.

The fact still stands that when He said "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."... that this IS a statement of truth , truly stated.

IOW... Jesus is telling Nicodemus... no one, except for him who descended from heaven has been there.

But before that Jesus also said

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So it is with certainty that Enoch and who ever else prior to Jesus' ministry may have "disappeared" did not go up to heaven....

Is it though? You'll have to wrestle with your beliefs. No one can do the heavy lifting for you. Couldn't help but notice that you completely ignored, or otherwise sidestepped the question I posed to you about Elijah. Here's the context.... 2 Kings 2>>>

Just before the LORD took Elijah up to heaven in a windstorm, Elijah and Elisha were traveling from Gilgal.

As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a fiery chariot pulled by fiery horses appeared. They went between Elijah and Elisha, and Elijah went up to heaven in a windstorm. While Elisha was watching, he was crying out, “My father, my father! The chariot and horsemen of Israel!” Then he could no longer see him. He grabbed his clothes and tore them in two.


That leaves a bit of a conundrum for Jesus if you are going to continue to impose your misunderstanding upon his words-- No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven...

You'd have to propose that Jesus didn't know the story of Elijah. Absurd. He talks about Elijah several times, referencing him directly, so that's not it. Or maybe it is as you suggest that Elijah did not actually ascend into heaven, and therein you must disagree with scripture. That's a whole separate issue that I can't help you with either. Jesus knew the story of Elijah and the story of Enoch as well-- the stories of their being taken up into heaven as well as the scriptural examples like in Ezekiel 8 where the prophet says- Then a wind lifted me up between the earth and heaven and brought me to Jerusalem by divine visions, to the door of the inner gate that faces north where the statue that provokes to jealousy was located. Or I could wait for you to illuminate some other absurdity to explain away the story of Elijah ascending in order to support your premise.

OR.... you could consider that Jesus knew what he was talking about, knew about Elijah's ascension into heaven, and still said what he said--- in which case, Jesus understood things differently than you do. So what was Jesus talking about? Well, I told you already. He was talking about the spirit, not the flesh. He was talking specifically about the spirit of God that is sent, that descends from heaven (the son of God) and rests upon a human-- anointing them with this spirit-- making him a Christ (anointed one/Son of Man).

What Jesus is actually saying, if you remove your blinders-- is that to be born from above in the spiritual sense is the descending of this spirit from above (spirit gives birth to spirit) upon a person. And that is the only way a person assumes the title- Son of Man, referring specifically to one anointed with the Holy Spirit of God in fullness. If, you do the math and acknowledge that Jesus had complete awareness of Elijah and his ascension into heaven, what Jesus is actually saying is that the spirit first descended upon him, then went back up to heaven because no one has ever ascended except the one who first descended. The same applies to Elijah. The spirit first descended from heaven upon him, then ascended back to heaven. Is this true?

It's what made him a prophet (a spokes-person) for God. The LORD’s message came to him. A prophet becomes a prophet because the word of God comes to him, and he then delivers that word.... a messenger of the LORD. The word of God is received (it descends upon the messenger by the spirit. The word, the messenger descends from heaven above, to man below and the anointed one below becomes the vessel-- the human host that receives that word, and he becomes the human instrument-- the voice of the Father to announce the message.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Is it though? You'll have to wrestle with your beliefs. No one can do the heavy lifting for you. Couldn't help but notice that you completely ignored, or otherwise sidestepped the question I posed to you about Elijah. Here's the context.... 2 Kings 2>>>

Just before the LORD took Elijah up to heaven in a windstorm, Elijah and Elisha were traveling from Gilgal.

As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a fiery chariot pulled by fiery horses appeared. They went between Elijah and Elisha, and Elijah went up to heaven in a windstorm. While Elisha was watching, he was crying out, “My father, my father! The chariot and horsemen of Israel!” Then he could no longer see him. He grabbed his clothes and tore them in two.


That leaves a bit of a conundrum for Jesus if you are going to continue to impose your misunderstanding upon his words-- No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven...

You'd have to propose that Jesus didn't know the story of Elijah. Absurd. He talks about Elijah several times, referencing him directly, so that's not it. Or maybe it is as you suggest that Elijah did not actually ascend into heaven, and therein you must disagree with scripture. That's a whole separate issue that I can't help you with either. Jesus knew the story of Elijah and the story of Enoch as well-- the stories of their being taken up into heaven as well as the scriptural examples like in Ezekiel 8 where the prophet says- Then a wind lifted me up between the earth and heaven and brought me to Jerusalem by divine visions, to the door of the inner gate that faces north where the statue that provokes to jealousy was located. Or I could wait for you to illuminate some other absurdity to explain away the story of Elijah ascending in order to support your premise.

OR.... you could consider that Jesus knew what he was talking about, knew about Elijah's ascension into heaven, and still said what he said--- in which case, Jesus understood things differently than you do. So what was Jesus talking about? Well, I told you already. He was talking about the spirit, not the flesh. He was talking specifically about the spirit of God that is sent, that descends from heaven (the son of God) and rests upon a human-- anointing them with this spirit-- making him a Christ (anointed one/Son of Man).

What Jesus is actually saying, if you remove your blinders-- is that to be born from above in the spiritual sense is the descending of this spirit from above (spirit gives birth to spirit) upon a person. And that is the only way a person assumes the title- Son of Man, referring specifically to one anointed with the Holy Spirit of God in fullness. If, you do the math and acknowledge that Jesus had complete awareness of Elijah and his ascension into heaven, what Jesus is actually saying is that the spirit first descended upon him, then went back up to heaven because no one has ever ascended except the one who first descended. The same applies to Elijah. The spirit first descended from heaven upon him, then ascended back to heaven. Is this true?

It's what made him a prophet (a spokes-person) for God. The LORD’s message came to him. A prophet becomes a prophet because the word of God comes to him, and he then delivers that word.... a messenger of the LORD. The word of God is received (it descends upon the messenger by the spirit. The word, the messenger descends from heaven above, to man below and the anointed one below becomes the vessel-- the human host that receives that word, and he becomes the human instrument-- the voice of the Father to announce the message.

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

When you view an airplane from the ground is it easy for you to see when it is at the height they fly?

this says "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" But I submit that they could not see heaven from the earth abut the could watch until the "whirlwind" disappeared from sight. They assume it was heaven but I say he was taken to where God would have him safe until Jesus' resurrection.

Are we not always told that our corrupted flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven

1 Cor 15:50 tells us

Now I say this, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

NOT eveN JESUS' mortal body, the least corrupt of anyone could....

John 20:17 tells us

Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Without the new perfected body no one will enter into heaven.

But could God have translated Elijah and yes, even Enoch to Paradise... (Upper Sheol)... until the time of Jesus resurrection and His decension to talk to those who died...a little after the same time those in their graves came out in the crucifixion story?

Matthew 27:52-53 says that when the temple veil was torn, the tombs were opened and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Why is this not possible?

 

[TLHKAJ]

Is it though? You'll have to wrestle with your beliefs. No one can do the heavy lifting for you. Couldn't help but notice that you completely ignored, or otherwise sidestepped the question I posed to you about Elijah. Here's the context.... 2 Kings 2>>>

Just before the LORD took Elijah up to heaven in a windstorm, Elijah and Elisha were traveling from Gilgal.

As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a fiery chariot pulled by fiery horses appeared. They went between Elijah and Elisha, and Elijah went up to heaven in a windstorm. While Elisha was watching, he was crying out, “My father, my father! The chariot and horsemen of Israel!” Then he could no longer see him. He grabbed his clothes and tore them in two.


That leaves a bit of a conundrum for Jesus if you are going to continue to impose your misunderstanding upon his words-- No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven...

You'd have to propose that Jesus didn't know the story of Elijah. Absurd. He talks about Elijah several times, referencing him directly, so that's not it. Or maybe it is as you suggest that Elijah did not actually ascend into heaven, and therein you must disagree with scripture. That's a whole separate issue that I can't help you with either. Jesus knew the story of Elijah and the story of Enoch as well-- the stories of their being taken up into heaven as well as the scriptural examples like in Ezekiel 8 where the prophet says- Then a wind lifted me up between the earth and heaven and brought me to Jerusalem by divine visions, to the door of the inner gate that faces north where the statue that provokes to jealousy was located. Or I could wait for you to illuminate some other absurdity to explain away the story of Elijah ascending in order to support your premise.

OR.... you could consider that Jesus knew what he was talking about, knew about Elijah's ascension into heaven, and still said what he said--- in which case, Jesus understood things differently than you do. So what was Jesus talking about? Well, I told you already. He was talking about the spirit, not the flesh. He was talking specifically about the spirit of God that is sent, that descends from heaven (the son of God) and rests upon a human-- anointing them with this spirit-- making him a Christ (anointed one/Son of Man).

What Jesus is actually saying, if you remove your blinders-- is that to be born from above in the spiritual sense is the descending of this spirit from above (spirit gives birth to spirit) upon a person. And that is the only way a person assumes the title- Son of Man, referring specifically to one anointed with the Holy Spirit of God in fullness. If, you do the math and acknowledge that Jesus had complete awareness of Elijah and his ascension into heaven, what Jesus is actually saying is that the spirit first descended upon him, then went back up to heaven because no one has ever ascended except the one who first descended. The same applies to Elijah. The spirit first descended from heaven upon him, then ascended back to heaven. Is this true?

It's what made him a prophet (a spokes-person) for God. The LORD’s message came to him. A prophet becomes a prophet because the word of God comes to him, and he then delivers that word.... a messenger of the LORD. The word of God is received (it descends upon the messenger by the spirit. The word, the messenger descends from heaven above, to man below and the anointed one below becomes the vessel-- the human host that receives that word, and he becomes the human instrument-- the voice of the Father to announce the message.

This is exactly where I was going in my conclusion. I could quote just a portion of your text for some reason. But you'll see what I'm referring to.

Elijah was taken up .....Jesus was not. Take a look at these passages.

John 10:17-18
[17]Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
[18]No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jesus laid down His life, and then He took it again! lol NO ONE ELSE could ever do that! He gave His life. And He needed no chariot or whirlwind to take Him up ....He ascended of His own power, because He is God (the Son, the Word that was made flesh).

Now, there is language referring to Jesus that says He was taken up, and yet the manner was different. When you use the word "ascend" it has a different sense, that requires personal action. Jesus literally and plainly stated that He Himself would lay down His life and then take it up again.

 

[TLHKAJ]

They assume it was heaven but I say he was taken to where God would have him safe until Jesus' resurrection.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17]That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you suppose that God made a mistake when He gave the scriptures, or He didn't know the full picture?

 

[TLHKAJ]

I think he died, but it wasnt like a horrible death, he may have been taken in his sleep.

Scripture tells exactly how he went ....in the sight of Elisha as they both stood together on the other side of the Jordan River. He was not asleep! How is it so hard to believe what the scriptures say is true??