What happened to Enoch? Would love some input on this.

[TLHKAJ]

And here is another interesting puzzle piece. The Jordan River is often symbolic of passing through death. (It is also symbolic of baptism.)

2 Kings 2:7-8
[7]And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
[8]And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.

 

[marks]

We have also been told that no one has gone to be with or see the father because the time for that will be after Jesus' 2nd coming. (Please... Preterists... let this one rest.)

Well, actually what Jesus said was that no one has ascended into heaven, which was what Jesus would do. But that doesn't mean God couldn't or didn't take anyone to be there with Him. As I see it.

Much love!

 

[TLHKAJ]

Okay, so I just realized that the OP is referring to Enoch. And somehow we switched over to talking about Elijah. I'll definitely dig more into this ... but it may be that the answer is not as complicated as assumed.

 

[marks]

Okay.

Please tell me what

In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man."

means?

"Ascended" here is an active voice verb, and as such, it's saying, no one has gone on their own into heaven, except the one who came from heaven. It allows that some may have been taken into heaven - an action done to them - so there is no contradiction between Jesus says no one has on their own ascended into heaven, and Enoch being taken into heaven.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Funny how one can be so certain of something they can't possibly know.

Have a good day JohnDB.

Isn't it common knowledge that the Book of Enoch is pseudopigrapha?

Much love!

 

[TLHKAJ]

More puzzle pieces...
What do you supposed came of the "many" of the saints who arose up out of their graves after Jesus' resurrection?

Matthew 27:52-53
[52]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[TLHKAJ]

"Ascended" here is an active voice verb, and as such, it's saying, no one has gone on their own into heaven, except the one who came from heaven. It allows that some may have been taken into heaven - an action done to them - so there is no contradiction between Jesus says no one has on their own ascended into heaven, and Enoch being taken into heaven.

Much love!

This was my conclusion as well. (See post #18.)

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17]That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you suppose that God made a mistake when He gave the scriptures, or He didn't know the full picture?

No no mistake, but man certainly can misunderstand. Even when recording

 

[TLHKAJ]

Genesis 5:24
[24]And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

The Hebrew word that is translated "took" is this....

Hebrew: לקח
Transliteration: lâqach
Pronunciation: law-kakh'
Definition: A primitive root; to take (in the widest variety of applications): - {accept} {bring} {buy} carry {away} {drawn} {fetch} {get} {infold} X {many} {mingle} {place} receive ({-ing}) {reserve} {seize} send {for} take ({away} {-ing} {up}) {use} win.
KJV Usage: take (747x), receive (61x), take away (51x), fetch (31x), bring (25x), get (6x), take out (6x), carry away (5x), married (4x), buy (3x), misc (26x).
Occurs: 969
In verses: 909

 

[TLHKAJ]

Even when recording

I don't believe God allowed His Word to be misunderstood .....even when recording.

 

[Mr E]

this says "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" But I submit that they could not see heaven from the earth abut the could watch until the "whirlwind" disappeared from sight. They assume it was heaven but I say he was taken to where God would have him safe until Jesus' resurrection.

No assumption is necessary- if you accept the scriptures that detail what happened. Does this really sound to you, that the account is referring to 'the sky' (where the airplanes fly). Elisha was an eye witness>>>

As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a fiery chariot pulled by fiery horses appeared. They went between Elijah and Elisha, and Elijah went up to heaven in a windstorm. While Elisha was watching, he was crying out, “My father, my father! The chariot and horsemen of Israel!”

Try not to allow your beliefs to wedge meaning between you and the text. There's no confusion. These fiery horses and this fiery chariot are not earthly. This describes a heavenly, spiritual encounter, not physical. If I'm understanding you correctly, you are now suggesting that it wasn't really heaven that Elijah, and/or Enoch were taken (even though scripture clearly says it was).

How about Ezekiel? Are you then going to insist that he was not taken (in spirit) into heaven? He describes what he saw in spirit, in heaven, in great detail. Read even the first verse of Ezekiel chapter 41, 42, 43.... he tells you what he sees and where he is. Not physically. In spirit. He was taken up (he ascended) into heaven. These verses clash with your understanding of Jesus' words- No man has ascended into heaven except he who descended.... So now I've given you three examples of those who Jesus knew to have ascended into heaven. Enoch, Elijah, Ezekiel. If you just take him at his word, all he is saying is that these first came down, before they ever went back up. He's saying that heaven is the starting point. That the spirit descends onto these men, then-- after their missions were fulfilled, the spirit was taken back up. It's very clear with respect to Elijah and what Elisha testified. The horses and chariot -- the spiritual vehicle 'transports' the spirit. Jacob describes his dream of seeing the angels going up and down a ladder.... same concept. Ezekiel is taken up in a wind, just like Elijah and Elisha later in life at his deathbed (2 Kings 13) there again we see the horses and chariot to take Elisha up-- who had received a double portion of that same spirit that was upon Elijah. Then, we have Isaiah and Jeremiah (the prophets) who similarly had the word of the LORD come to them. And Daniel-- that Son of Man and so on....

Are we not always told that our corrupted flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven

It's not physical. Heaven is spiritual (in nature) so by nature, anything and anyone ever referred to as being taken up to or being in heaven is not referencing physical things, rather spiritual (heavenly) things.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I don't believe God allowed His Word to be misunderstood .....even when recording.

I will say this... maybe the writers didn't understand the full implication of what they were being told to write. But they wrote as the Spirit of God moved them.

 

[Mr E]

Isn't it common knowledge that the Book of Enoch is pseudopigrapha?

Much love!

That's a separate topic and conversation. It's certainly a common assumption.

 

[marks]

That's a separate topic and conversation. It's certainly a common assumption.

You brought it up. And there seems to be a pretty good record of when it came to be. Are there any scholarly sources that show it's existance before the first few centuries BC?

If you want to show Christian doctrine from the Book of Enoch, my first response is, Enoch didn't write it. That's the scholarly position from what I've seen.

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

You brought it up. And there seems to be a pretty good record of when it came to be. Are there any scholarly sources that show it's existance before the first few centuries BC?

If you want to show Christian doctrine from the Book of Enoch, my first response is, Enoch didn't write it. That's the scholarly position from what I've seen.

Much love!

Feel free to start a thread to discuss. I'd be happy to discuss elsewhere, unless you are intent on being a distraction here. I'll leave you to think on this and leave it at that....

Would you consider Jude to qualify as a scholarly source? He quotes Enoch-- are you going to insist that Jude pulled it from his hat?

Enoch 1:9

And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy ⌈all⌉ the ungodly:

And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

Jude 14

Now Enoch, the seventh in descent beginning with Adam, even prophesied of them, saying, “Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict every person of all their thoroughly ungodly deeds that they have committed, and of all the harsh words that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

 

[JohnDB]

You brought it up. And there seems to be a pretty good record of when it came to be. Are there any scholarly sources that show it's existance before the first few centuries BC?

If you want to show Christian doctrine from the Book of Enoch, my first response is, Enoch didn't write it. That's the scholarly position from what I've seen.

Much love!

Yep....contextual evidence demonstrates conclusively that it was written around 300-100 BC in Southern Egypt. Almost near where once existed the Barbarian horde known as Cushites.

 

[marks]

Would you consider Jude to qualify as a scholarly source? He quotes Enoch-- are you going to insist that Jude pulled it from his hat?

Both quoted from the same source, Enoch.

Back to topic!

Much love!

 

[TLHKAJ]

Both quoted from the same source, Enoch.

Back to topic!

Much love!

I can see it from both points of view. But my observation is that anyplace in the NT that quote an OT prophet/prophecy, you can go back in the OT and find the scriptures to verify them. Why do we not have the OT reference for what Enoch prophesied?

One thing I have heard is that the true Book of Enoch was taken and hidden away (at the vatican) and that it was rewritten by freemasons.

 

[marks]

I can see it from both points of view. But my observation is that anyplace in the NT that quote an OT prophet/prophecy, you can go back in the OT and find the scriptures to verify them. Why do we not have the OT reference for what Enoch prophesied?

One thing I have heard is that the true Book of Enoch was taken and hidden away (at the vatican) and that it was rewritten by freemasons.

There are some other places also that don't have a clear antecedent.

One is,

Ezekiel 38:16-17 KJV
16) And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
17) Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

I'm not aware of anyone who can point to where the prophets foretold this.

What I know it this. The quote from Enoch in the Bible has Scriptural Authority. The Book of Enoch (so-called) is not only known to not have been written by Enoch, but also contains several factual errors, which Scripture would not have.

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

Both quoted from the same source, Enoch.

Back to topic!

Much love!

Not only does Jude quote from Enoch, several copies of the earlier sections of 1 Enoch were preserved among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Ethiopian Church considers it ancient, authentic and scripture to this day.

And Enoch-- the seventh from Adam would have been a historical source even for Moses who may also have been quoting in Deuteronomy.

Compare: (who's quoting who?) We know for sure that Jude is quoting Enoch, because Jude writes after the DSS copies were hidden away and preserved for posterity. Moses could very well be using the same source material as he provides a historical recap near the end of his days.

Enoch 1--

"The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, and the eternal God will tread upon the earth, even on Mount Sinai, and appear from His camp and appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens."

Deuteronomy 33--

“The LORD came from Sinai and revealed himself to Israel from Seir. He appeared in splendor from Mount Paran, and came forth with ten thousand holy ones."