What happened to the 10 toes in Daniel 2?

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3 Resurrections

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Your claims of who the iron and the clay are not from the text. You are still not responding to Jesus' pronouncement that their house was left desolate. If the kingdom had actually started, Jesus would not have been weeping. If the kingdom had started, all other powers would have gone away.

In summary, the kingdom of God came very near, among them, then withdrew because they did not recognize their visitation.
The manifestation of the kingdom of God to the first-century people in Israel was not "withdrawn" or put on hold simply because most of Christ's own people rejected His rule. We know that John wrote, "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not."

You are not crediting Christ with enough power to maintain His own kingdom in spite of His enemies. Christ's weeping over Jerusalem was not because His kingdom failed to be realized when they rejected it. Jesus was weeping because the vast majority of His own people at that time were going to be cast out of His kingdom for their unbelief. Their second temple was left "desolate" because it had been utterly corrupted by then, and the new spiritual temple made without hands and composed of "living stones" was going to be the spiritual kingdom's New Jerusalem and New Covenant reality that would stand forever.
 
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ThomasDGW

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I do not disagree with post 317, therefore I am not trying to disprove it. What I disagree with is that you want to say that the things of post 317 are the total of the kingdom of God. Daniel 2 says that the kingdom of God will take over the whole world. That has not happened yet. You still have not explained why Jesus wept over Jerusalem in Luke 19.
 

covenantee

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What I disagree with is that you want to say that the things of post 317 are the total of the kingdom of God.
Show where I've said that.
You still have not explained why Jesus wept over Jerusalem in Luke 19.
He was grieving the unbelief of those who rejected Him, which was completely understandable.

He was not grieving the belief of those who accepted Him.
 

ThomasDGW

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Show where I've said that.

He was grieving the unbelief of those who rejected Him, which was completely understandable.

He was not grieving the belief of those who accepted Him.
You said that when you said that the kingdom began at that time. An incomplete kingdom of God is not God's kingdom.

Jesus explained why he was weeping, which included the unbelief of those who rejected Him, but also included the enemies coming to destroy them. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 that only born again people would enter the kingdom. A kingdom where enemies enter is not God's kingdom. Neither does God's kingdom have setbacks.
 

covenantee

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You said that when you said that the kingdom began at that time. An incomplete kingdom of God is not God's kingdom.

Jesus explained why he was weeping, which included the unbelief of those who rejected Him, but also included the enemies coming to destroy them. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 that only born again people would enter the kingdom. A kingdom where enemies enter is not God's kingdom. Neither does God's kingdom have setbacks.
When do you think that the Kingdom of God began?
 

ThomasDGW

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The kingdom of God already existed before Jesus was born, so that the New Testament speaks of the kingdom coming, seeing the kingdom, or entering the kingdom, but never of the kingdom beginning. I believe that the kingdom of God began with the creation of man, but the exact time is not crucial to me at this time.

Daniel 2 gives a timeline of earthly kingdoms, repeatedly referring to the whole earth. The people of Israel were focused on that: the reign of God over the earth, so that Jesus found it necessary to emphasize that there was a necessary advance of the kingdom of God in the individual and spiritual area before the kingdom of God would reign over the physical earth.

Now, among large groups of Christians, there is a tendency to make the opposite error, which is to focus on the spiritual aspects of the kingdom of God, based on phrases that say that the kingdom does not come visibly, that the kingdom of God is within and among, to the point of denying that the kingdom of God will ever become visible and physical.

Jesus referred to the advance of the kingdom of God in the hearts of men and women as God is gathering subjects to reign over in their hearts. The stone kingdom of Daniel 2 referred to the culmination when all opposition will be crushed and God's kingdom will come to full, physical fruition on the whole earth. The first advance of the kingdom has happened and continues to happen. The second has not yet happened. I will happen when the toes have been identified, have reigned, and have been crushed.
 

CTK

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Jesus referred to the advance of the kingdom of God in the hearts of men and women as God is gathering subjects to reign over in their hearts. The stone kingdom of Daniel 2 referred to the culmination when all opposition will be crushed and God's kingdom will come to full, physical fruition on the whole earth. The first advance of the kingdom has happened and continues to happen. The second has not yet happened. I will happen when the toes have been identified, have reigned, and have been crushed.
Reflective narrative:​

The First Strike and the Final Crushing​

Rethinking Daniel 2:34–35​

As Daniel recounts Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2:31–35, many interpreters read verses 34 and 35 as one instantaneous finale: the Stone appears, the statue shatters, and history ends. Yet Daniel’s own wording encourages us to slow down. He narrates a sequence. First comes the strike. Then comes the crushing. In verse 34, the focus narrows to the feet:

“You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay…”​

This is the moment of impact. The Stone is revealed and strikes the statue precisely where iron and clay are mingled. But Daniel does not yet describe the entire image being pulverized, blown away, or reduced to chaff. That language comes only in verse 35:

“Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together and became like chaff…”​

That word “then” marks movement within the dream. First, the Stone strikes the feet. Then, the entire image—iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold—is crushed together and swept away. Daniel separates the moment of impact from the final disappearance. Within this two-stage reading, verse 34 corresponds to the first coming of the Messiah, while verse 35 corresponds to the final harvest and judgment.

The First Strike

When the Stone enters history “in the days of those kings,” He does so during the fourth kingdom—Rome. Yet Christ’s arrival does not topple Rome in a visible political instant. Rome continues. Gentile dominion continues. The kingdoms of this world are not immediately removed.

Instead, the Stone strikes the place where iron and clay are mingled. The iron represents Rome’s hard imperial power. The clay represents the covenant people living within that Roman setting. This is the prophetic location of Christ’s first coming: Israel under Rome, covenant people beneath imperial domination, clay embedded within iron.

The first strike therefore produces separation before destruction. Christ comes to His own, and His presence exposes the true condition of the clay. Some within Israel receive Him and become pliable, moldable in the Potter’s hands, shaped by His Spirit, and drawn into His kingdom. Others harden themselves against Him, remaining outwardly religious but inwardly resistant to their own Messiah.

The cross becomes the great line of division. It is not yet the moment when every earthly kingdom disappears. It is the moment when God’s kingdom enters history decisively, calling out those who receive the Messiah and revealing those who refuse Him.

The Final Crushing

Verse 35 belongs to the end. Here, for the first time, the clay is explicitly listed alongside the metals:

“Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together…”​

This is not merely Rome collapsing. It is the final removal of everything represented by the image. Every kingdom, every glory, every form of human dominion standing apart from God is reduced to chaff and carried away. The imagery is one of winnowing and finality. Nothing remains but the kingdom God establishes.

In other words, the cross is the point of separation; the end is the point of crushing. The Stone strikes first to divide, expose, call out, and establish. He returns later to crush, remove, and fill the earth with the everlasting kingdom of God.

Why the Later Visions Matter

This distinction helps explain why Daniel’s later visions are necessary. If the Stone’s strike in Daniel 2:34 were already the final destruction of the image, then Daniel 7, 8, and 11 would have little historical space left to unfold. Yet those later visions do not treat history as though it ended at the Stone’s first appearance. Instead, they reveal a long and detailed development within the fourth kingdom.

Daniel 7 shows the same four kingdoms again, this time as beasts. The fourth beast is dreadful, devouring, and iron-toothed—Rome again. But Daniel is then shown developments that occur within the continuing fourth-kingdom landscape. Ten horns arise, and later a little horn emerges among them.

These horns do not create a fifth kingdom. They reveal the later phase of the fourth. What was not distinguished in the dream sequence of Daniel 2 becomes more visible in Daniel 7. The ten toes of the image are later developed through the ten horns of the beast. Then, from within that same Roman inheritance, a religious-political power rises that speaks great words, persecutes the saints, and corrupts divine authority.

Such a power presupposes the Messiah’s first coming. It cannot counterfeit what has not yet appeared. It requires a true Gospel to distort, a true Church to imitate, and covenant truth to corrupt. This places the little horn’s activity between the first strike of Daniel 2:34 and the final crushing of Daniel 2:35.

Daniel 8 points in the same direction. The little horn magnifies itself, casts truth down, interferes with what is sacred, and prospers for a season. Its activity functions as a distortion of Christ’s finished work, which only makes sense after the Stone has entered history. Again, the strike has already happened, but the final crushing has not yet come.

Daniel 11 carries the same pattern forward. Medo-Persia and Greece pass quickly, and then the prophecy slows into a long conflict under later prophetic titles. The chapter does not add new kingdoms beyond the four. It develops the long aftermath of the fourth kingdom and its internal transformations after the Messiah has entered the timeline.

The Missing Messiah Problem

This raises an important question: where is the first coming of Christ in Daniel 2 if the Stone appears only at the very end?

If the Stone belongs solely to a final end-time destruction, then the cross—God’s central intervention in history—sits strangely outside the foundational statue vision. The image would move from Babylon to Medo-Persia to Greece to Rome, and then jump directly to the end, leaving the Messiah’s first coming outside the very blueprint that governs the rest of Daniel.

That is difficult to maintain, especially when Daniel 9 places the Messiah’s appearing and being “cut off” at the center of the seventy weeks. The Messiah does not appear outside Daniel’s prophetic timeline. He appears within it.

The two-stage reading resolves this tension. The Messiah appears inside the statue’s timeline, “in the days of those kings,” exactly where the Gospels place Him—within the fourth kingdom, under Rome, among the covenant people represented by the clay.

Why Daniel 2:40–44 Must Be There

This also explains why Daniel’s interpretation in verses 40–44 is essential. Daniel does not treat it as an optional appendix. He explains what the fourth kingdom looks like as it moves from iron legs into iron-and-clay feet: partly strong, partly brittle, mixed but not truly united.

He also says that in the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed. This does not require the immediate disappearance of every earthly kingdom at the first appearance of the Stone. It means God’s kingdom begins within the fourth-kingdom period and will ultimately outlast, overthrow, and replace all human dominion.

If Daniel 2:34 were already the final demolition, there would be little need to describe the internal condition of the fourth kingdom in such detail. Daniel includes these details because the Stone’s first strike begins a kingdom and a separation that continue through history until the final crushing arrives.

Conclusion

The pattern is coherent. Daniel 2:34 marks the Stone’s first appearance and strike. The Messiah enters history during the fourth kingdom, strikes the feet where iron and clay are mingled, separates the clay by response to Him, and establishes God’s kingdom within the Roman world.

Daniel 2:35 describes the final harvest. The entire image—iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold—is crushed together, reduced to chaff, and blown away until no place remains for it.

The later visions make best sense if this distinction is real. The cross must be inside the statue’s timeline, not outside it. Daniel 2:34 provides that place. It is the moment the Stone appears, not to pulverize everything at once, but to strike the feet, expose the mixture, separate the clay, and begin the kingdom that will one day stand alone when every rival kingdom has been swept away.
 

covenantee

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The kingdom of God already existed before Jesus was born, so that the New Testament speaks of the kingdom coming, seeing the kingdom, or entering the kingdom, but never of the kingdom beginning. I believe that the kingdom of God began with the creation of man, but the exact time is not crucial to me at this time.

Daniel 2 gives a timeline of earthly kingdoms, repeatedly referring to the whole earth. The people of Israel were focused on that: the reign of God over the earth, so that Jesus found it necessary to emphasize that there was a necessary advance of the kingdom of God in the individual and spiritual area before the kingdom of God would reign over the physical earth.

Now, among large groups of Christians, there is a tendency to make the opposite error, which is to focus on the spiritual aspects of the kingdom of God, based on phrases that say that the kingdom does not come visibly, that the kingdom of God is within and among, to the point of denying that the kingdom of God will ever become visible and physical.

Jesus referred to the advance of the kingdom of God in the hearts of men and women as God is gathering subjects to reign over in their hearts. The stone kingdom of Daniel 2 referred to the culmination when all opposition will be crushed and God's kingdom will come to full, physical fruition on the whole earth. The first advance of the kingdom has happened and continues to happen. The second has not yet happened. I will happen when the toes have been identified, have reigned, and have been crushed.
I concur.

However, you claim that the Kingdom was rejected.

There are those who believe that the Kingdom which Christ preached was Plan A, a physical political kingdom which He would establish and rule over; but because Plan A was rejected, Plan B, which was the Cross, was substituted.

It's also described as "kingdom postponement".

Are you aware of that?
 
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ThomasDGW

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Yes, I am aware of that suggestion, but it cannot be true because there is no salvation without the cross. The cross was established from the foundation of the world (Rev 3:8) not a plan B response.
 
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