What I hate

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Wrangler

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What I hate ... it is said to be bad to “Spiritualize” scriptures ... without it being condemned as as “over-spiritualizing”.
Allow me to make a reasoned defense of those who say not to spiritualize or over-spiritualize Scripture. One of the sayings I hate is 'happy medium' because it implies something that is not necessarily true, such as compromising with evil. So, the subject comes down to proper discerning of Scripture.

Is there such a thing? Is there such a thing in light of Hebrews 4:12, the word of God is alive. Considering Satan testing Jesus with Scripture certainly teaches us there is improper discerning of Scripture. So, logic dictates that there is a proper discerning of Scripture.

What is the difference in “symbolic” and “a metaphor”?
I think the pivot point is Spiritual (not symbolic) compared to metaphor. I was just talking to a friend the other day about the proverb of a dog returning to its own vomit. This is a metaphor. Scripture is a highly figurative book. A great line from Father Brown Murder Mystery show is it's best not to take God's word too literally.

So, where does that leave us? As an unorthodox Christian, I reject mysticism in all it's forms. Christianity is meant to be a practical way of life, not in keeping with the philosphies - and dare I say, new age spiritualism of the world. The following verse that speaks to me about all this was the verse of the year for me a few years back and I hope it helps:


17 The mission given to me by the Anointed One is not about baptism (or over spiritualizing Scripture), but about preaching good news. The point is not to impress others by spinning an eloquent, intellectual (or spiritual) argument; that type of rhetorical showboating would only nullify the cross of the Anointed.

18 For people who are stumbling toward ruin, the message of the cross is nothing but a tall tale for fools by a fool. But for those of us who are already experiencing the reality of being rescued and made right, it is nothing short of God’s power. 19 This is why the Scripture says:

I will put an end to the wisdom (mysticsim) of the so-called wise (mystics),
and I will invalidate the insight of your so-called experts (or mystics).

20 So now, where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? (Where is the mystic?) Where is the skilled debater, the best of your time? Step up, if you dare. Hasn’t God made fools out of those who count on the wisdom of this rebellious, broken world?

1 Corinthians 1:17-20 (VOICE) (emphasis added)
 

Enoch111

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What is the difference in “symbolic” and “a metaphor”?
SYMBOL = a thing that represents or stands for something else, especially a material object representing something abstract.

METAPHOR = a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
 
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quietthinker

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This thread is mostly to address again how it is said to be bad to “Spiritualize” scriptures. I hear it all the time even to the point where you can’t post anything..any connections you feel help or at least verses that have helped you… without it being condemned as “out of context” or as “over-spiritualizing”. I’m sure this will be condemned also as being taken out of context: Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Romans refers to “but what I hate, that I do.”
I get this passage speaks about sin. I’m not disputing that. I’m asking about what we say is sin to us …that is sin. Those who feel very strongly of a thing as sinful or to be condemned…to me they are calling it a sin and condemned to “over-spiritualize”. Maybe I’m wrong but when those post come to a thread it is clear they hate “over-spiritualizing.” From their perspective “taken out of context” …is a sin? Which Romans 7:15 talks about “sin”.

Another verse that connects I think is… hoping I won’t be condemned in that which I allow.

I seriously do not understand how those who hate over-spiritualizing can then spiritualize whenever they choose. I truly don’t get the inequality of what is allowed for me is condemned in you.

How it is ok for them …for instance “you must eat my flesh and drink my blood” to then be “Spiritual”. They say there are clues leading up to when it is okay to “spiritualize” or to take a thing as Spiritual. Like with parables…but I don’t see any clues there when Jesus spoke of drinking his blood and eating his flesh. I’ve been in churches that condemn spiritualizing the Word …hating and despising it …but at the same time I’ve heard their “types” and “shadows” in taking things out of context even to the point of coming up with what the names mean as a type or shadow. What if those “types” And “shadows” are just as wrong as connecting verses said to be taken out of context. It could all be wrong…but that isn’t the point. The point is …why is one a sin and there is no forgiveness for errors…and one is not a sin confident theirs is no errors?

For me Romans helps in pointing out that we do what we hate. To me this helps with all condemnation. How often the thing we hate and despise, that thing we also do. To me we will allow it when we do it, and then turn around and condemn ourselves by hating in others; what we allow for ourselves but hate in them… “but what I hate, that I do.”
Seeing is your treasure ViJ. If others don't see, don't want to see or refuse to see; if others get their nose outta joint or want to consign you to the flames, that's their problem. All the jumping up and down, their many words and attempted force of their logic needs be water off a ducks back.

Seeing is your peculiar treasure which once you see cannot be unseen. Share it as best you can.....and strangely, even silence speaks!
 

VictoryinJesus

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SYMBOL = a thing that represents or stands for something else, especially a material object representing something abstract.

METAPHOR = a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
I struggle to make sense of the difference. To me there is writing that gives breath and movement to things ….I can think of one example being from a book about the marsh or swamp and through words giving life, sound, and movement to a thing —like a marsh where through imagery it is as if; the marsh itself tells its own story.

But then to use imagery of a thing to tell of something else that is truly real but hard to be understood. To teach something to a child that the child has never seen before by relating it to something familiar to the child. For example (how can I be be born again?) : shadows and types as being not the actual thing but an image of …what is real and Greater. For me…I don’t see the Word of God as giving breath and life to animals (ox and cattle and lions and a lamb) or inanimate objects …like dry land and a river…or brick and mortar structures made with hands. Like in the first imagery of a marsh coming to life through words …that doesn’t seem to be the point in His word. The point does not seem to be about “dry bones” coming to Life as the song depicts “them bones” “hear the word of the Lord”. BUT instead of the Word being full of whatever we call “symbols” or “metaphors” like a brick structure built up with men’s hands coming alive —but it is closer to the second example of “teaching” by relating something familiar to what is common to us, something the Word is wanting us to learn: the body of Christ built up of God with Christ as its foundation. Big difference I think to floral writing full of “metaphors” and “symbols” for the sake of the inanimate leaping off the page with life and imagery….and the Spirit teaching of something impossible to imagine by what is familiar.

What is the difference in literature where men just write through “metaphor” and “symbol” telling of what they know or have experienced. And the Spirit of God …is His the same as literature? Is men’s commentary the same as a
syl·la·bus for the Word of God? As all exceptional literature is debated over for: what was the authors real intent?
 
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Wrangler

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I struggle to make sense of the difference.
Symbol v Metaphor?! Really! A common tactic of mystics, of those who over-spiritualize Scripture, is to parse synonyms. What does Scripture say about this? Avoid such foolish fights over words!


14 Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God’s presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

15 Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth. 16 Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. 17 This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus.
2 Timothy 2:14-17 (NLT)


But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Titus 3:9
 

Wrangler

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4. When Jesus said "My Father is greater than I" that is not to be taken out of context in order to claim that Jesus is some kind of "lesser god". Jesus was and is FULLY GOD, yet He was under the authority of the Father while He was on earth. And the Bible says that "the Head" (authority over) Christ is God the Father (1 Cor 11:3).
Not only are you taking it out of contex, you are adding words to Scripture.

Jesus statement is unqualified. You are adding the qualifier, 'while He was on earth.'

In addition, 1 COR 11:3 clearly says that God - in his entirety, in his unitarian nature - is the head of Christ. There is no 'the Father' in that verse but you added it so it fits better with your doctrine.


And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
Mark 7:13 (NLT)

We are not writing to you in anything resembling codes or riddles.
2 Cor 1:13 (VOICE)
 

VictoryinJesus

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Symbol v Metaphor?! Really! A common tactic of mystics, of those who over-spiritualize Scripture, is to parse synonyms. What does Scripture say about this? Avoid such foolish fights over words!


14 Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God’s presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

15 Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth. 16 Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. 17 This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus.
2 Timothy 2:14-17 (NLT)


But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
Titus 3:9
With all due respect this I don’t get …not what the verses say but what I don’t get is the contradiction because immediately following you comment to @Enoch111 concerning “ addition, 1 COR 11:3 clearly says that God - in his entirety, in his unitarian nature - is the head of Christ. There is no 'the Father' in that verse but you added it so it fits better with your doctrine.” Am I missing something because isn’t this fIghting over words? Is it avoiding foolish controversies? Again I’m not trying to be ugly it just seems to me preaching in one post and then in the next doing what is preached against?
 
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Wrangler

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Am I missing something because isn’t this fIghting over words? Is it avoiding foolish controversies?
In a book I am reading, it pointed out that Jesus did not reason and argue with Satan. He merely stood on truth, stood on what Scripture actually says and applying it correctly. I like to believe I did the same thing here.

I am not fighting over words, per se. That is, I am not fighting over word meanings. Since the internet became a thing and the subject comes up, be it about the Constitution or the Bible, I point out neither are dictionaries and I am using words already defined. Then, I refer them to their favorite lexicon.

I merely observed what Scripture actually says and noticed Enoch added words. That's not good form.

Another example of a foolish controversy is when a young and new convert to Christianity asked in these very boards how he should starting reading the Bible. His question was very reasonable. Yet, a fight broke up. One said in decades they have never read the whole Bible and don't want new converts to feel it is a burden. Another claimed you cannot even call yourself a Christian if you don't read the Bible, cover to cover.

In another forum, I was repeatedly criticized for quoting only part of a verse. I stood up for myself, saying that is the part of the verse I want to focus on, e.g. don't let your heart be troubled. I know there is more to the verse but that is the relevant part I want to discuss.

We all know there different translations and many get passionate about which translation is right or best. But the exchange with Enoch was none of these things as far as I can tell. Hope this helps.

Do you think I've crossed a line? How then do you suggest I also comply with 1 Timothy 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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In a book I am reading, it pointed out that Jesus did not reason and argue with Satan. He merely stood on truth, stood on what Scripture actually says and applying it correctly. I like to believe I did the same thing here.

I am not fighting over words, per se. That is, I am not fighting over word meanings. Since the internet became a thing and the subject comes up, be it about the Constitution or the Bible, I point out neither are dictionaries and I am using words already defined. Then, I refer them to their favorite lexicon.

I merely observed what Scripture actually says and noticed Enoch added words. That's not good form.

Another example of a foolish controversy is when a young and new convert to Christianity asked in these very boards how he should starting reading the Bible. His question was very reasonable. Yet, a fight broke up. One said in decades they have never read the whole Bible and don't want new converts to feel it is a burden. Another claimed you cannot even call yourself a Christian if you don't read the Bible, cover to cover.

In another forum, I was repeatedly criticized for quoting only part of a verse. I stood up for myself, saying that is the part of the verse I want to focus on, e.g. don't let your heart be troubled. I know there is more to the verse but that is the relevant part I want to discuss.

We all know there different translations and many get passionate about which translation is right or best. But the exchange with Enoch was none of these things as far as I can tell. Hope this helps.

Do you think I've crossed a line? How then do you suggest I also comply with 1 Timothy 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
All I’m saying is you referred to Jesus standing on the truth. Saying you hope that is what you also did there with Enoch. Don’t we all hope that we stand on the truth? So convinced we have the truth. Men argue over what that truth is and you get varied opinions over words. I wish I could find a man like Jesus Christ who knows the heart of the Father; to where you know this mans’ interpretation or how he is receiving the Word…is without a doubt the truth. His hearing the Father that clearly. To me that is what made Jesus Christ unique to standing against satan … because of
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
 
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ReChoired

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So, do we "eat" or "drink" the blood/body of Jesus in a literal sense?
The disciples misunderstood Jesus’ spiritual meanings with natural meanings, even after so long a time with Him.

John 1:19-25 (John the Baptist as Elijah)
John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)
&c.
 
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Johann

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The disciples misunderstood Jesus’ spiritual meanings with natural meanings, even after so long a time with Him.

John 1:19-25 (John the Baptist as Elijah)
John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)
&c.
Thanks for the scriptural support here @ReChoired but this was addresses to "victoryin jesus"
 
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VictoryinJesus

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So, do we "eat" or "drink" the blood/body of Jesus in a literal sense?
That wasn’t what I meant. I’m often blamed for over-spiritualizing. No I don’t think we “eat” or “drink” the blood/body of Jesus in a literal sense. That was the point though in including that which I hate..where men dictate when spiritualizing is allowed and when it is not. When they can spiritualize, and when you can not.
disciples misunderstood Jesus’ spiritual meanings with natural meanings,
How often do we misunderstand Jesus’ spiritual meanings with natural meanings?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Almost always.
Thought about your post this morning. A word that stood out while reading this morning was: adulterating the Word of God. I had never heard “adulterating” used in that way.

2 Corinthians 4:2 Lexicon: but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Strong's Greek: 1389. δολόω (doloó) -- to ensnare, fig. to adulterate

properly, to lure (or snare) by using bait – holding out the worm and concealing the hook!; to handle deceitfully; "primarily, to ensnare; then to corrupt –

2. to corrupt, (βδελλιον and λίβανον, Dioscor. 1, 80. 81); τόν οἶνον, Lucian, Hermot. 59) τόν λόγον τοῦΘεοῦ, divine truth by mingling with it wrong notions, 2 Corinthians 4:2.

divine truth mingled with wrong notions. Thought of “wrong notions” with how often is the Word mingled with wrong notions; with your response of “almost always.” To me “wrong notions” make it so hard to trust yourself or anyone else who says “it is the God Honest Truth”! Afraid it is a worm held out concealing the hook…
 
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Wrangler

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To me “wrong notions” make it so hard to trust yourself or any one else ... Afraid it is
I believe the more you immerse yourself in Scripture, the easier this becomes.

Do you remember that passage of Scripture where Jesus says his sheep know his voice? I do not take this literally. It means God's elect know the truth. We know the truth.

I started a thread that sadly got locked about Satan's Words. Because we know the truth, we can also discern what is NOT true.

Regarding fear and worry. These are not of the Spirit. Pr 1:7 says fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. IF you have faith (true fear) in God, you will not have faith (true fear) in anything else.

Hope this helps.
 
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ChristisGod

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Do we literally eat Jesus flesh and drink His blood ? no that is meant to be figurative not literal.

Do you literally hate your mother, father, siblings and spouse ? This was Jesus exaggerating to make His point. The point being our love for God should be matchless in comparison for our love for others. If one loves God with all their mind, heart and soul as commanded then by osmosis he will love others. Loving God above all with result in a healthy and Godly love for others.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I believe the more you immerse yourself in Scripture, the easier this becomes.

Do you remember that passage of Scripture where Jesus says his sheep know his voice? I do not take this literally. It means God's elect know the truth. We know the truth.

I started a thread that sadly got locked about Satan's Words. Because we know the truth, we can also discern what is NOT true.

Regarding fear and worry. These are not of the Spirit. Pr 1:7 says fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. IF you have faith (true fear) in God, you will not have faith (true fear) in anything else.

Hope this helps.
To me knowing his voice means how every author has a distinct voice. His the most distinct of all; so much so that it is higher than our own. I always heard instead either my own voice while reading the word or other mens voices to where verses shouted God hated me and thought I was weak for being a woman. Or that God is about possession. Or I would hear a tyrant slamming down a gavel demanding “Give Me My Just Due Glory!” “My Name will be Glorified” “You will Honour Me!” “You will Bow!” What i heard for forty-some years was the voice of a bully all about Himself. That is not the “voice” I hear anymore, not in the passages of the Author. Now what I hear is He does all things for us, for Our profit, we are His Namesake, We are His Glory glorified with Him for His Namesake.

Now I’m told (by others) what I hear is my own “voice” instead making God passive. I don’t think so because I also know my own voice which is complaining, hopeless, negative, condemning, judgmental, and most of all not grounded and all over the place…weak. I don’t think that is the voice either that I’ve heard in His Authorship but instead something foreign to anything I’ve heard before within. Strong. To me …that is “Voice” …same as with any penned words they come from the mind of the Author. His Mind “My ways and Thoughts are Higher than your own”. Consider knowing which “voice” to follow when He said no other “voice” will they follow. Or when He told the Pharisees they had never Heard His voice or those of the Prophets at any time…even though they had read and studied all of it still yet they hadn’t learned (or taught) of Him. Does an Author have a distinct voice? I agree with you that the more you hear a voice; the more you can discern between whose Voice it is. Is it His? Or another? is is His? Or your own? After hearing our own voice for so long…it would seem we’d recognize when there is a Voice foreign to our own speaking…
 
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Jim B

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What are your thoughts on moving beyond?
Well, try starting with Romans 8. It begins with this... "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed, it cannot, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
 
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Jim B

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For me, it was impossible to get past Romans 7 until He did…something, that calmed my flesh and put it in subjection. I can’t say how He did it but I did find a verse that I think describes it : my soul is like a weaned child within me.
See my post immediately above.
 
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